Origin = Shaolin

[7starmantis]

I had a lengthy discussion last night at my school with someone people who saw that special on Discover channel about MA. I don't know if you guys saw it, but what do you think about the idea that ALL martial arts originated from Shoalin Temple? Basically that all MA can trace back their origin to Shaolin? What are you guys thoughts on that idea ?



7sm

[Bod]

Cornish and Breton wrestling don't trace back to Shaolin.

[jkn75]

This is a hard question to answer because people just don't know. Many of the wars in China, Japan and Korea included destruction of knowledge (by destroying libraries or storage areas of works), so unfortunately, the martial arts practiced concurrently or before the Shaolin may have been lost. Look at something recent like the Japanese occupation of Korea. Many people believe that a lot of traditional Korean martial arts were lost in that war. So looking at the history of that region it is hard to say what has been lost in 2000-3000 years.

I think there is some history of martial arts in Okinawa and Africa concurrently or before the Shaolin. Most cultures also have some form of wrestling. With these, I think it is difficult to say that ALL martial arts can be traced to the Shaolin.
:asian:

[Despairbear]

I have to agree jkn75, many European MA's have no connection with Aisian MA's. I have found that where ever people are in battle and conflict there is a martial art to go with it. Human being did not come to therecurrent position by planyin nice with others, they came to their position by fighting and killing, and we have gotten very good at it.



Despair Bear

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Despairbear

I have to agree jkn75, many European MA's have no connection with Aisian MA's. I have found that where ever people are in battle and conflict there is a martial art to go with it. Human being did not come to therecurrent position by planyin nice with others, they came to their position by fighting and killing, and we have gotten very good at it.



Despair Bear
Actually, some European arts do have Eastern origins.

Take a few styles of wrestling in Eastern Europe, like Russia. They came from Mongolian wrestling when the Mongols had the biggest empire known to man.

La Savate has roots from Chinese arts


I think that many arts have something to do with the Shaolin temple, but all that came from the teachings of a man from India who taught yoga or so the legend goes.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

I had a lengthy discussion last night at my school with someone people who saw that special on Discover channel about MA. I don't know if you guys saw it, but what do you think about the idea that ALL martial arts originated from Shoalin Temple? Basically that all MA can trace back their origin to Shaolin? What are you guys thoughts on that idea ?
7sm


It's Bull.

There are many arts that have no connection to Shaolin.

When I lived in China Chinese people would always brag about their 5,000 years of culture and how they invented this and that.........I had people telling me that Chinese invented the car, airplane, chewing gum and so on.


The Chinese have had a major influence on the arts but they are by no means the starting place.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan




It's Bull.

There are many arts that have no connection to Shaolin.

When I lived in China Chinese people would always brag about their 5,000 years of culture and how they invented this and that.........I had people telling me that Chinese invented the car, airplane, chewing gum and so on.


The Chinese have had a major influence on the arts but they are by no means the starting place.
It is impossible to label a starting place as there are arts and fighting is not limited to just a few places. But a lot of arts do have something to do with the Shaolin temple.

[Rich Parsons]

Egypt - Is much older in our history of civilization for man. They document on the temples and crypts people in dance with weapons. Is this not sparring or practicing martial arts.

Also, when the first man, be he the one created from a great creator, or one who decided to walk up-right and use weapons in Millions of years ago in history had conflicts. The first punch thrown or rock thrown or stick swung is my mind of martial arts. Then the first dodge to get hit was the second move learned. And I guess and assume that it happened way before the Shaolin Tamples era in Chinese History.

Just my opinion - have yours it is free :)

Rich

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


It is impossible to label a starting place as there are arts and fighting is not limited to just a few places. But a lot of arts do have something to do with the Shaolin temple.


There is an excellent documentary by the BBC called The Way of The Warrior.
One segment deals with Indian arts (as in the kind from India not America) and it shows some amazing stuff. You can definitely see that there was a flow of arts from India to China.

I have seen other Discovery Channel MA programs and almost laughed my ass off watching them. I believe one was called the "The 10 most deadly arts" or some such nonsense.

They had Jukokai which is a major dan factory-bogus credential factory-total BS martial art whose "Soke" :rolleyes: is/was under investigation for fraud was listed at I think #5 on the "deadly scale".
The "Soke" :rolleyes: of Jukokai and I have exchanged emails regarding his "training" in Japan and his dubious connection to Motobu Ryu in Okinawa.
I even wrote the Discovery Channel an email with name and numbers of people to contact to verify my statements.....they were kind of like "oh well we have already planned it ........"
So you might say the Discovery Channel doesn't exactly "investigate" their guest to deeply nor do they really care what kind of crap they put out as long as their numbers are good.

[Kempojujutsu]

I remember in black belt mag, a few years back, oh Rod S. was selling Sokeships to like 40 different arts. He was also talking about Motobu Ryu, how he was the highest ranking American. I can't remember all the details. Could dig that old copy out.
Bob:asian:

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I remember in black belt mag, a few years back, oh Rod S. was selling Sokeships to like 40 different arts. He was also talking about Motobu Ryu, how he was the highest ranking American. I can't remember all the details. Could dig that old copy out.
Bob:asian:

Confused???

Could explain what he was selling and how he was selling it?

Thanks

Rich
:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I remember in black belt mag, a few years back, oh Rod S. was selling Sokeships to like 40 different arts. He was also talking about Motobu Ryu, how he was the highest ranking American. I can't remember all the details. Could dig that old copy out.
Bob:asian:


That would be him.

He claimed among other things to be "the most respected non-asian martial artist in asia". Too bad nobody over here has heard of him.....that is of course not including the folks he tried to 'suck rank" off of.


I called the Motobu Ryu H.Q. in Okinawa.......they never heard of Rod.

He is also the guy that tried to fake a dan certificate from someone and wrote the kanji on it wrong so it said "sex way house" in stead of "True Way house".
He also claimes to be no less than a 6th dan in about 15~20 different styles.
If I am not mistaken our buddy Chiduce here on MT has some connection to a guy named Durbin who is one of Rod's cronies.

Rod's a real peice of work which is why I objected to seeing him on any legit MA documentary.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by MartialArtist

I think that many arts have something to do with the Shaolin temple, but all that came from the teachings of a man from India who taught yoga or so the legend goes.

So, for all the super pro-Shaolin birthplace of martial arts theorists, what about all the fighting arts that predate Shaolin, especially those of Chinese origin?

Shaolin is not the birthplace of all or even most Chinese martial arts, and is actually not as influential as most would probably think...

Whatever. Old discussion... And I don't have my flame retardant jammies on, so I'm not gonna get up on my soapbox... :soapbox:

Gambarimasu.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



So, for all the super pro-Shaolin birthplace of martial arts theorists, what about all the fighting arts that predate Shaolin, especially those of Chinese origin?

Shaolin is not the birthplace of all or even most Chinese martial arts, and is actually not as influential as most would probably think...

Whatever. Old discussion... And I don't have my flame retardant jammies on, so I'm not gonna get up on my soapbox... :soapbox:

Gambarimasu.
I never said most, I said many. There are literally hundreds of arts that had some or very little basis from the Shaolin temple. It is said that the ideas moved farther East than China and it is said that the idea of the martial arts were from there. Remember, it was a Buddhist from India who brought yoga to the temple, and it evolved into the arts as we know it today.

And if you actually read my post, you would know that I stated that there were martial arts that had no bearing on them like many Western and Eastern arts. I also stated that China got many of today's MAs from India.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


Remember, it was a Buddhist from India who brought yoga to the temple, and it evolved into the arts as we know it today.


This is the common belief which doesn't really make it a fact.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan




This is the common belief which doesn't really make it a fact.
It may not have been one person. But a lot of today's Chinese arts come from ideas from India.

Don't believe me? Take Buddhism for example. That traveled East and along with them, mental and physical training which (yoga as in YOGA, not that new age stuff) eventually led to many martial arts.

Even take its Pagoda architecture. The Far Eastern architecture as you know it when you think of their castles and everyday buildings with the unique roofs, and the like... Actually, it came from India.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


Don't believe me? Take Buddhism for example. That traveled East and along with them, mental and physical training which (yoga as in YOGA, not that new age stuff) eventually led to many martial arts.

Buddhism and yoga haven't really been proven to be connected other than some breathing exercises they don't have much in common.........it also depends on which kind of Buddhism we are discussing too.


Originally posted by MartialArtist

Even take its Pagoda architecture. The Far Eastern architecture as you know it when you think of their castles and everyday buildings with the unique roofs, and the like... Actually, it came from India.

It has it's roots in Tibet and S.E. Asia .......Indonesia especially. Indian architecture is quite different.

[KennethKu]

Far Eastern architecture has its root in Indonesia?

Would you provide some references to support that?

Indonesian culture was heavily influenced by Indian culture.
Historically and culturally, India and China have dominated and influenced all other Asian nations and culture.

[Despairbear]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


Actually, some European arts do have Eastern origins.

Take a few styles of wrestling in Eastern Europe, like Russia. They came from Mongolian wrestling when the Mongols had the biggest empire known to man.

La Savate has roots from Chinese arts


Ok I can understand that, let me clearify. The armed combat manuals of the late middle ages to the early rennisance (sp?) mostly from Germany and Italy have no connection to the Shaolin.


Despair Bear

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



It has it's roots in Tibet and S.E. Asia .......Indonesia especially. Indian architecture is quite different.
http://www.geocities.com/mayuaqui2/paper.html
It came from India and it went to Tibet. It changed as it moved Eastward. Japanese Pagoda is different from Chinese.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Despairbear



Ok I can understand that, let me clearify. The armed combat manuals of the late middle ages to the early rennisance (sp?) mostly from Germany and Italy have no connection to the Shaolin.


Despair Bear
Yeah, they have no relevance.

Also look at Greco-Roman wrestling as in the traditional wrestling. And Greek boxing.

[MartialArtist]

Anyway, here is why today's "masters" who claim they teach Shaolin are...

http://tickets.msn.com/Presale/default.aspx?artist=ShaolinMonks

That's it, theater and dance. Anyone who thinks more of them should be dragged out to the street and shot. Shaolin like it once was is dead as with those posers who either know they're doing theater or they are somehow like the ancient Shaolin monks... Yet, you see those people eating meat all the time after the show.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by KennethKu

Far Eastern architecture has its root in Indonesia?

Would you provide some references to support that?

Indonesian culture was heavily influenced by Indian culture.
Historically and culturally, India and China have dominated and influenced all other Asian nations and culture.


Just reapting what I saw on a BBC documentary on it, theyshowed how asia had trade routes going from the west of asia to the eastgoing right by Indonesia, Malaysia and so on. The Pagoda was one of the things that was exported out of Indonesia, aording to the documentary it was used as some sort of grave.....the more levels to the Pagoda the more important the person.

[KennethKu]

I would like to see that documentary though.

This is the first time I have ever heard of such claim. Not saying I am an expert on this or anything in that nature.

I hope that was not an out of the mainstream researcher making a bold claim.

Through out Chinese history, trading with the southeast asian nations was minimal if any at all. Those nations were considered uncivilized and were treated as subordinate states or simply ignored. The Chinese considered theirs to be the Middle Kingdom. Learning and absorbing new foreign culture was not a strong point of the kingdom. Case in point: Korea and Japan absorbed significant amount of Chinese culture. But there was hardly anything going the other way in the past.

I can't comment further w/o seeing the documentary.

[ace]

Pancration is the oldest dating Martial Art.
& it Came from Greese!

[7starmantis]

It is true that shaolin was in its creative period influenced by an Indian Buddhist priest named Bodhidharma (Tamo in Chinese). He was at first refused atmitance into the temple, but was allowed in later. When he joined the monks they were out of shape and unhealthy. Tamo countered this weakness by teaching them moving exercises, designed to both enhance ch'i flow and build strength. These sets, modified from Indian yogas (mainly hatha, and raja) were based on the movements of the 18 main animals in Indo-Chinese iconography (e.g., tiger, deer, leopard, cobra, snake, dragon, etc.) Its hard to say when these "Sets" became actuall "MArtial Arts" since the Shaolin temple was in a secluded area so most of the martial aspects of the temple were more than likely for self defense against bandits and wild animals. This is not to say that Tamo "invented" martial arts. Martial arts had existed in China for centuries. But within confines of the temple, it was possible to develop and codify these martial arts into the new and different styles that would become distinctly Shaolin.
I think that MA as a whole if you take aomeone hitting another person with thier hand as MA have been around since the begining of man, but as a coded a recorded system I think that is a very different issue.


7sm

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

It is true that shaolin was in its creative period influenced by an Indian Buddhist priest named Bodhidharma (Tamo in Chinese). He was at first refused atmitance into the temple, but was allowed in later. When he joined the monks they were out of shape and unhealthy. Tamo countered this weakness by teaching them moving exercises, designed to both enhance ch'i flow and build strength.
7sm


That is the popular story for it anyway..............but the problem is that if people repeat a story long enough after a while everyone just accepts it as fact. You would surprised at the lack of "strict" historical research done in the history of the MA.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

................Martial arts had existed in China for centuries.
7sm

Which ones?


Originally posted by 7starmantis

But within confines of the temple, it was possible to develop and codify these martial arts into the new and different styles that would become distinctly Shaolin.

How did they codify it?
And how do we know it was done so in the temple?
Isn't it possible someone could have come from outside the temple as has been suggested by you (Tamo) and brought some form of MA with him?
If it happened once it could happen again.........right?
I am of the opinion that martial arts were brought into the temple from the outside rather than produced from with in it.
It is possible they were modified while inside but most of the wars and conflicts took place outside the temple walls..........not within them.

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

It is possible they were modified while inside but most of the wars and conflicts took place outside the temple walls..........not within them.

Your getting into defing terms and such. What is actual martial arts? Yes the use of it as in the wars is the actual use of martial arts, but by that thought you are not training in MA whne not involved in a fight. Thats simply getting into nick picking, I agree that outside influences happened alot, and I'm not saying the origin of MA is shoalin, I just brought the point up for discussion.

7sm

[Kempojujutsu]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I remember in black belt mag, a few years back, oh Rod S. was selling Sokeships to like 40 different arts. He was also talking about Motobu Ryu, how he was the highest ranking American. I can't remember all the details. Could dig that old copy out.
Bob:asian:
Found that ad in black belt mag. It can be found in May 94 issue. One Sokeship that sticks out like a sore thumb is Int'l Kenpo Karate Remmei, USA. It is to Ed Parker, Soke Shodai. He is listed as deceased ZKSBBR Soke Member.
Bob :asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

Your getting into defing terms and such. What is actual martial arts? Yes the use of it as in the wars is the actual use of martial arts, but by that thought you are not training in MA whne not involved in a fight. Thats simply getting into nick picking, I agree that outside influences happened alot, and I'm not saying the origin of MA is shoalin, I just brought the point up for discussion.

7sm


Actually I am not defining terms.....or "nick picking":confused:....maybe"wars" was not agood word choice. What I meant was conflicts......be they armed, un-armed, man to man or whatever.........they took place more so on the outside of the temple and most likely developed more there than inside, and therefore were brought into the temple.

[MartialArtist]

There are a lot of Chinese arts that have existed for a long time. An art like Chiao Ti aka shuai chiao.

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Actually I am not defining terms.....or "nick picking":confused:....maybe"wars" was not agood word choice. What I meant was conflicts......be they armed, un-armed, man to man or whatever.........they took place more so on the outside of the temple and most likely developed more there than inside, and therefore were brought into the temple.

Yeah I got what you were saying, I'm just saying that be it actually physically inside the brick walls that made up the temple or outside of them, systems that were created "at" Shoalin is ment, created by the monks of Shoalin, not saying that every moment they worked on the system was inside the walls of the temple.


7sm

[Jay Bell]

So you might say the Discovery Channel doesn't exactly "investigate" their guest to deeply nor do they really care what kind of crap they put out as long as their numbers are good.

This is very true, Robert. A group of folks contacted Discovery after the show aired about Rod and his Juko Kai. Their attitude was that the show was done by a third party group, which was unverified, and their biggest response was that since they didn't do it, it's not their fault. They didn't seem to care much. I heard through the grapevine that a member of the production crew is also a member of Juko Kai...which would explain alot, but I can't verify this.

I especially like the part of the program when he showed the picture sitting in seiza next to the Soke of Shindo Yoshin ryu. They met ONE DAY...and when propositioned on what it would take to get Menkyo Kaiden, Rod was asked to leave. Far different from his accounts in the show..

As for the Ta Mo legend. That's all it is...nothing more then a tale with *zero* historical documentation to back it up. I don't care how many websites list it as history...websites are only as credible as the person who makes it.

In reality, there were not "Shoalin arts". There were arts that the Shoalin studied and worked on diligently, but historically speaking, I'm sure you cannot find a single art that was created within the walls of a Shaolin temple. There were many. And none in the South...that was a fictional story written in the early 1900's.

[7starmantis]

Actually historicaly a basic "shoalin system" was created for the monks to increase their health and live long lives. That is historicaly acepted by every historian on the subject I have had contact with. The fact was the monks were very out of shape from their works usually involving long periods of time transcribing, and the "system" was created to help them keep their bodies healthy while doing such "tideous" work every day. It later became a system of self defense against "bandits" and wild animals as accustomed to the location of the temple. Thats what "shoalin arts" would refer to. They later became known for their "fighting" skills.


7sm

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

Actually historicaly a basic "shoalin system" was created for the monks to increase their health and live long lives.

Odd how this system seems to have disappeared...... and yet the others remain.


Originally posted by 7starmantis

That is historicaly acepted by every historian on the subject I have had contact with.

Most martial historians are "hacks" at best. I have yet to seen ANY modern "Martial Historian's" work that would pass a college review board. Most of their work is based on other books with equally inaccurate notions based on hearsay and rumor.



Originally posted by 7starmantis

The fact was the monks were very out of shape from their works usually involving long periods of time transcribing, and the "system" was created to help them keep their bodies healthy while doing such "tideous" work every day.

This "transcribing" that you state started several hundred years after this Tao Mo fellow is supposed to have been on the seen.
You would think with all the transcribing they did their records would have been extremely accurate as to their martial studies and yet they seem to be extremely haphazard.



Originally posted by 7starmantis

It later became a system of self defense against "bandits" and wild animals as accustomed to the location of the temple. Thats what "shoalin arts" would refer to. They later became known for their "fighting" skills.7sm


Again........"legend" with no facts to base it upon.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

Actually historicaly a basic "shoalin system" was created for the monks to increase their health and live long lives. That is historicaly acepted by every historian on the subject I have had contact with. The fact was the monks were very out of shape from their works usually involving long periods of time transcribing, and the "system" was created to help them keep their bodies healthy while doing such "tideous" work every day. It later became a system of self defense against "bandits" and wild animals as accustomed to the location of the temple. Thats what "shoalin arts" would refer to. They later became known for their "fighting" skills.


7sm
After bandits and wild animals, they evolved for protection from invaders.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Odd how this system seems to have disappeared...... and yet the others remain.



Most martial historians are "hacks" at best. I have yet to seen ANY modern "Martial Historian's" work that would pass a college review board. Most of their work is based on other books with equally inaccurate notions based on hearsay and rumor.




This "transcribing" that you state started several hundred years after this Tao Mo fellow is supposed to have been on the seen.
You would think with all the transcribing they did their records would have been extremely accurate as to their martial studies and yet they seem to be extremely haphazard.





Again........"legend" with no facts to base it upon.
Not to mention there is hardly any primary sources.

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Odd how this system seems to have disappeared...... and yet the others remain.
Most martial historians are "hacks" at best. I have yet to seen ANY modern "Martial Historian's" work that would pass a college review board. Most of their work is based on other books with equally inaccurate notions based on hearsay and rumor.

What "others are you talking about? Other countries systems? If martial historians are "hacks" then you would have no history on any "other" systems either, correct ?

[Bod]

The system of breathing and exercises has not disappeared. It is the basic Chi Gung like Eight Pieces of Brocade etc.

I can't see why the conjecture that an Indian monk taught the Chinese monks these yoga style exercises is any less than extremely plausible.

These exercises are indeed the foundation of the Shaolin styles of kung fu, and are what make it different to other arts, especially the 'farmer styles' of boxing and Shiu Jiao etc. Although Kicking, punching and grappling are common to all indigenous styles around the world, styles do differ by all sorts of things like philosophy, training methods and theory. The Shaolin styles have a philosophy, training method and theory that are distinct and have clear links with Indian Buddhism.

The details may be hazy, but trying to contend that the core of Shaolin Kung Fu is not Indian Buddhist style of techniques for health is ridiculous.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

What "others are you talking about? Other countries systems?


Obviously other systems that supposedly came from the Shaolin temple.



Originally posted by 7starmantis

If martial historians are "hacks" then you would have no history on any "other" systems either, correct ?

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Bod

The system of breathing and exercises has not disappeared. It is the basic Chi Gung like Eight Pieces of Brocade etc.

No, that is incorrect......the Ba Dau Chuan ( 8 brocade set) is not that old.


Originally posted by Bod

The Shaolin styles have a philosophy, training method and theory that are distinct and have clear links with Indian Buddhism.

Seeing how Buddhism is from India and the Shaolin monks are Buddhist monks I don't see how they couldn't.


Originally posted by Bod

The details may be hazy, but trying to contend that the core of Shaolin Kung Fu is not Indian Buddhist style of techniques for health is ridiculous.

Really? Ridiculous? How so?
I would say they are a little more than "hazy".

To be honest I find this topic to be rather pointless in discussion.
There will always be someone who believes the Tao Mo version and others that do not..........personally I don't care since it can't be proven either way............I am siging off this thread as of now.

Later.........

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Obviously other systems that supposedly came from the Shaolin temple.

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

So in regards to the "other" systems you are refering to maybe, preying manits, and those type of systems then? And the system that is "no more" is what system exactly ? I would be interested in seeing your documentation on this as well.

What I am saying is that you discredited martial historians as a whole but then relyed on martial history for your proof, if martial historians are inaccurate, your proof is as well.


7sm

[Bod]

I don't say that Tamo, and the dates given are historical fact.

What I'm saying is that there is truth in the story, as evidenced by the way Shaolin Arts are practiced today.

Which to me is what matters. Historians can argue over the details as much as they like.

[arnisador]

A Sept. 26 Associated Press article notes that the Shaolin monks are trying to enforce the trademark on their name and stop companies from using "Shaolin" without paying them.

[Matt Stone]

Well, if I had the ability to cash in on everyone in the world that was hanging on the coat tails of the Shaolin Myth of Martial Arts Origin, attempting to link themselves in some tenuous fashion to the mythical, mystical, magical fantasy of the Shaolin Temple a la David Carradine, I would jump on it!!!

There are enough martial arts frauds out there taking advantage of the unsuspecting and ignorant, without adding the Shaolin wannabes to the mix. While I do not agree with the study, practice and teaching of martial arts for profit, the name is theirs legally (I suppose) and if folks want to use it, they can do the necessary paperwork...

It would be nice to see the Shaolin wannabes have to take down all their signs and have to try to compete for local interest without the martial arts buzzwords...

(E.g. There is a martial arts school near here that alleges it provides instruction in Shaolin kung fu. Surprisingly enough, the instructor didn't know what Chuan Fa was... go figure. Legitimate Shaolin? I doubt it, Buddhist buzzwords or not.)

Gambarimasu.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by arnisador

A Sept. 26 Associated Press article notes that the Shaolin monks are trying to enforce the trademark on their name and stop companies from using "Shaolin" without paying them.
Today, the Shaolin monks are nothing more than devout Buddhists. Nothing spectacular really.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by MartialArtist

Today, the Shaolin monks are nothing more than devout Buddhists. Nothing spectacular really.

These ones were all posing with staves--all young, say around 10.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by MartialArtist

Today, the Shaolin monks are nothing more than devout Buddhists. Nothing spectacular really.

You bet. That's why, as devout Buddhist clergy, they are more concerned with their tourist income and making world tours of their wu shu acrobats than they are in meditation and prayer...

[7starmantis]

I would love to see all the illigetament "schools" of shoalin be forced to put on their signs what they are really teaching, but then you get censors and people get all up tight about big signs that say, "Come learn Lethal @#$@%$@". :D


7sm

[Bod]

I learned some 'Shaolin Fists' or Sil Lum Chuan from a totally legitimate teacher.

Because his teacher taught some amalgamated Southern styles they used a generic name, but it was still Chinese kung fu pure and simple.

The name doesn't belong to the Shaolin Monks Travelling Show.

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Bod

I learned some 'Shaolin Fists' or Sil Lum Chuan from a totally legitimate teacher.

Because his teacher taught some amalgamated Southern styles they used a generic name, but it was still Chinese kung fu pure and simple.

The name doesn't belong to the Shaolin Monks Travelling Show.

The problem is the people on this thread don't believe that there is any legitament shoalin systems. I think there are, but there are also alot of illigitament ones too. No, the name doesn't belong to the monks, but how do we seperate the legitament with the not so?

7sm

[RyuShiKan]

Here is a thought:


Instead of having the Shaolin monks going around on their Traveling Show giving what amounts to a display of Wushu and parlor tricks (laying on spears and what not) why don't they go around to all the non-legit schools that claim to be Shaolin and kick ass........and film it while they do it. That way we can see "real" Shaolin Kungfu "in action", and they would get rid of all the bogus schools at the same time.
Of course they would spend the rest of their lives doing it since there are so many that make such claims.