Redemption – can martial training help?

[stealthness]

Can a person with serious criminal conviction be allowed to train in martial art as means to redeem himself?

[DeLamar.J]

Can a person with serious criminal conviction be allowed to train in martial art as means to redeem himself?


Who decides when the person is redeemed? You must have an authority on redemption right?

[Blindside]

To be honest, I'm probably wouldn't train someone with a "serious criminal conviction" assuming that history had something to do with violence. If someone is looking for redemption, MA probably isn't the place for it, they should go volunteer somewhere and do the general public some good.

Lamont

[Drac]

Can a person with serious criminal conviction be allowed to train in martial art as means to redeem himself?



NO!!!! I wish I had the video of the 2 convicts practicing attack moves from various cuffing position...Guess who would have been on the recieving end of these attacks?? They didn't know they were on camera..Their cells were raided and the Karate book s removed...

[DeLamar.J]

To be honest, I'm probably wouldn't train someone with a "serious criminal conviction" assuming that history had something to do with violence. If someone is looking for redemption, MA probably isn't the place for it, they should go volunteer somewhere and do the general public some good.

Lamont
I hooked up with some guys where just released from prison, and when some of thier friends were released I started training with them also. They some of the toughest martial artists I have ever trained with. In prison they had to fight alot and became very tough, and very mean in close quarters fighting. You would be very surprised how much you can learn from someone who has done an 8 year bit in prison.
Some people come out better, some dont. As far as martial arts training goes, I will train with anyone, including violent criminals. But there is a big difference between a personal training partner, and just an associate.
I will train with anyone, but I wont let just anyone in my private life like I do a personal student.

[Kacey]

Martial arts are for self-defense and self-improvement; if you're looking for redemption, try religion or community service.

[Drac]

Martial arts are for self-defense and self-improvement; if you're looking for redemption, try religion or community service.

Amen...

[DeLamar.J]

Martial arts are for self-defense and self-improvement; if you're looking for redemption, try religion or community service.Violent convicts respect violence. If you can hurt them, they respect you, and take what you have to say seriously. Once you gain their respect through violence (kicking their ###), you can teach them about being a better person. But you must first gain their respect in the only way they understand. If you truly want to help them, you must be able to hurt them first.

[exile]

Can a person with serious criminal conviction be allowed to train in martial art as means to redeem himself?



I myself don't see any meaningful redemption for the person you're describing other than a sincere and sustained effort to help repair the damage they did. Doing something to make yourself feel good about yourself or whatever has nothing to do with any sense of redemption worthy of the name. MA very likely will make someone feel good about him/herself. But how on earth can it help anyone injured by a `serious criminal' action, or their family, or their friends?

[matt.m]

nope, no way. The convicted member of a violent crime in my opinion just learns how to cooridinate violence better.

[w.kaer]

Can a person with serious criminal conviction be allowed to train in martial art as means to redeem himself?



Can a criminal be allowed to train? Yes they can. Should they? That would be another question. I would think a lot of consideration would be given to the nature of the offense. Was it violent or not? Did it involve victims or not?
It is easy to speak in the absolutes that the label "convicted criminal" brings with it. I don't believe that the MA's alone can be the redemption. Redemption must come from internal change and true repenting. I don't believe in making an across the board prohibition on criminals training. I would like to think that sort of thing may be taken on case by case basis.
It may sound a bit naive. I am not naive enough to believe that every criminal that may inquire into training are going to be completely reformed. It is difficult to teach old dogs new tricks, but it isn't impossible. Who are we to make and pass the final judgement on anyone?

MHO--Walt

[dubljay]

Redemption has little, if anything, to do with the means, and everything to do with the person. Redemption can only occur when the person is fully commited to changing. This isn't to say the person has to do it alone, everyone needs some help at some point. Perhaps the physical arts (i.e. kenpo or judo and such) are not a good starting place, maybe help lies in an internal art like Tai Chi. But it all depends on the person, not the means they choose.

[Kenpojujitsu3]

To be honest, I'm probably wouldn't train someone with a "serious criminal conviction" assuming that history had something to do with violence. If someone is looking for redemption, MA probably isn't the place for it, they should go volunteer somewhere and do the general public some good.

Lamont

My thoughts exactly.

[whitedragon_48]

I've worked in Law Enforcement and Corrections a good 12 years now. I've seen very little of them actually change their ways. Criminals are not like us, guys. They have a different set of values. Stop thinking that the same rules applied. I don't mean that everyone that's been to jail over some BS charge is a career criminals, I'm talking about repeat violent offenders.

I've seen some guys in prison that are MA experts. MAs only make these guys more dangerous here and on our streets. Violent criminals lack the mechanisms to control their impulses, therefore, they act on them. MA will only make them better at crime. You cannot teach them self-control, so MA will not redeem them; the only thing we'll have is a criminal that can now defeat the arresting officer, possibly killing him.

They want redemption? How about giving back to the community? Or maybe getting an education? Guys, there was a time I did believed everyone could change given the chance, now, I see how naive that thought is.

[Drac]

NO!!!! I wish I had the video of the 2 convicts practicing attack moves from various cuffing position...Guess who would have been on the recieving end of these attacks?? They didn't know they were on camera..Their cells were raided and the Karate book s removed...

I hate to quote myself but i forgot to add the MOST important aspect...These 2 were due to be relased in 2 weeks as the State said they were totally rehabilitated....

[Drac]

I've worked in Law Enforcement and Corrections a good 12 years now. I've seen very little of them actually change their ways. Criminals are not like us, guys. They have a different set of values. Stop thinking that the same rules applied. I don't mean that everyone that's been to jail over some BS charge is a career criminals, I'm talking about repeat violent offenders.

I've seen some guys in prison that are MA experts. MAs only make these guys more dangerous here and on our streets. Violent criminals lack the mechanisms to control their impulses, therefore, they act on them. MA will only make them better at crime. You cannot teach them self-control, so MA will not redeem them; the only thing we'll have is a criminal that can now defeat the arresting officer, possibly killing him.

They want redemption? How about giving back to the community? Or maybe getting an education? Guys, there was a time I did believed everyone could change given the chance, now, I see how naive that thought is.

Amen Brother..I am a street cop and I agree 100%...I too was once naive that was during my rookies days...

[Swordlady]

Martial arts are for self-defense and self-improvement; if you're looking for redemption, try religion or community service.

I second that "Amen". Now...I think that most anyone can "redeem" him/herself - but that person has to do much to regain the respect and trust of society as a whole first. Then we can talk about self-improvement.

[Rich Parsons]

Can a person with serious criminal conviction be allowed to train in martial art as means to redeem himself?




Can? Yes it is possible.

Should? That is the big question.


While I agree with Delamar about you can learn from them some real world approaches and or agression they can help.

While the following is something I would not accept. The Gang Banger or a disassociated family member brings a gang member by who wants to be introduced with the art you study, but then the techniques and questions immediately turn to knife fighting and defense.

Now if someone did something a long time ago and now is a productive member of society and walks in just like anyone else and trains and trains hard then I do not see a problem.

There are situations where it can make sense and others it would not.

Good Luck

[Fu_Bag]

NO!!!! I wish I had the video of the 2 convicts practicing attack moves from various cuffing position...Guess who would have been on the recieving end of these attacks?? They didn't know they were on camera..Their cells were raided and the Karate book s removed...


I've worked in Law Enforcement and Corrections a good 12 years now. I've seen very little of them actually change their ways. Criminals are not like us, guys. They have a different set of values. Stop thinking that the same rules applied. I don't mean that everyone that's been to jail over some BS charge is a career criminals, I'm talking about repeat violent offenders.

I've seen some guys in prison that are MA experts. MAs only make these guys more dangerous here and on our streets. Violent criminals lack the mechanisms to control their impulses, therefore, they act on them. MA will only make them better at crime. You cannot teach them self-control, so MA will not redeem them; the only thing we'll have is a criminal that can now defeat the arresting officer, possibly killing him.

They want redemption? How about giving back to the community? Or maybe getting an education? Guys, there was a time I did believed everyone could change given the chance, now, I see how naive that thought is.


I hate to quote myself but i forgot to add the MOST important aspect...These 2 were due to be relased in 2 weeks as the State said they were totally rehabilitated....

The above posts, along with one from Andy in another thread, highlight my concerns regarding the intentions of people who, not only seek fights to prove themselves against unwilling, fully resisting people, but have proven, through the use of insults and challenges, that they have a very predatory mindset to begin with. Now I'm really starting to wonder why it is that the troublemaking crowd wants to test its techniques against all martial arts and develop an unbeatable style. I would rather see police officers be able to subdue repeat violent offenders than to give these predators the tools they need to start killing cops after they've already preyed upon society.

This post only deals with the obvious troublemakers and predatory types from within the "fully resisting" training crowd. I'm not talking about the police and military types who have a valid reason to train this way. I'm simply voicing my concerns about a certain segment of a community that, in my opinion, should be highly self-regulatory when it comes to who they train and why they train them. This is yet another reason to avoid being drawn into a fight where someone may take what they learned from you and use it against someone else.

Just out of curiousity, whitedragon, what fighting methods do the MA experts who end up in prison seem to utilize? I'd like to have a clearer picture of exactly what type of predators I might have to deal with so that I can adjust my training accordingly. BTW, thanks for the heads up. I usually like to take the avoidance route but knowing what you're up against is a very important part of self defense, in my book.

Thanks again, Drac and whitedragon, for the heads up. :)

Respectfully,

Fu Bag

[whitedragon_48]

Just out of curiousity, whitedragon, what fighting methods do the MA experts who end up in prison seem to utilize? I'd like to have a clearer picture of exactly what type of predators I might have to deal with so that I can adjust my training accordingly. BTW, thanks for the heads up. I usually like to take the avoidance route but knowing what you're up against is a very important part of self defense, in my book.

Thanks again, Drac and whitedragon, for the heads up. :)

Respectfully,

Fu Bag

I've seen many. I have an ex-TKD champion that I recognized from the early 90s. I've seen Kickboxing, Karate, Wing Chun, JKD, Kung Fu, Aikido, Boxing, BJJ, Judo, Jujutsu, Kenpo, etc. These guys even secretly train their homeboys. I've caught'em doing so many times (its against policy here). Why is that a problem? Well, if we have some "lifer" learning say, Kali now when he gets his hands on a "shank" (knife) we have a bit of a problem don't we? The same applies on the streets. Enough of my brothers and sisters spill their blood every year on the streets with criminals as they are.

On a side note, I read sowhere that gang members are actively sending their members to receive MA and military training to get back to the gang. How great is that huh?

[Drac]

On a side note, I read sowhere that gang members are actively sending their members to receive MA and military training to get back to the gang. How great is that huh?

True...A copper recently found a page of a manual after a drug sweep..It showed techniques to use against police officers...The POS-gang-banger-wanna-drug-boy is a 2 time loser and told arresting officers it's part of a 200 pg guide...The caps are deplicted as Nazi's and the "homies" as Denzil Washington..

[Rook]

I'd say no... unconditionally no. There are other ways for people to become a better person that don't involve making them more dangerous at the same time.

[Grenadier]

While martial arts knowledge (or firearms, or knives, etc) can be used to hurt someone else, it's not the knowledge in question that is dangerous. Instead, it's the person. Instead, it's the person who is dangerous.

I do not trust felons (and other serious offenders) to carry firearms (it's illegal), and in the same manner, I do not trust them to not misuse such martial arts knowledge.

As Whitedragon stated, in general, serious offenders are incorrigible, and cannot be redeemed. They become repeat offenders.

Does this mean that all serious offenders are incorrigible? No. Of course not. However, it's still a business, and you have to play the percentages. The last thing *any* instructor and / or school owner wants, is to have his pupil's mug shot plastered on the television.

If such serious offenders really want to learn, then I'll suggest this: take your redemption opportunity seriously (not likely), do many truly outstanding things for the community (not likely), get an expungement for your offenses (even more unlikely), and stay clean. Then I'll maybe re-consider.

[charyuop]

That is freaking scary....I have always pictured (not that I want to) someone attacking me in the street as one of those drug addicted or maybe a full of muscle bully. But anyway, "normal" fighting people...I have never thought as someone who can be a highly trained Martial Artists.
Maybe because Martial Arts have in them a certain "code" of conduct or maybe because I have always seen the criminal as poor stupid who dedicate their life just to hurt (physically and not) other people, I have never had the thought of a criminal who actually uses his time to learn and master a Martial Art.

[Grenadier]

That is freaking scary....I have always pictured (not that I want to) someone attacking me in the street as one of those drug addicted or maybe a full of muscle bully. But anyway, "normal" fighting people...I have never thought as someone who can be a highly trained Martial Artists.
Maybe because Martial Arts have in them a certain "code" of conduct or maybe because I have always seen the criminal as poor stupid who dedicate their life just to hurt (physically and not) other people, I have never had the thought of a criminal who actually uses his time to learn and master a Martial Art.


In general, people who become good martial artists have the discipline to go through with the training, and have a respect for authority. This is why most martial arts folks tend not to get into trouble. It's also a good reason why martial arts schools are not packed with hoodlums. People who excel in the martial arts generally have better things to do with their time than go around committing heinous deeds.

However, this isn't to say that undisciplined hoodlums can't get anything out of it. There are many techniques that require very little training to apply, just as one would teach a self-defense class to a bunch of people who have never had any training. Even the most undiscplined of thugs are going to be able to pickup a thing or two, and this can make life miserable for the next person they encounter.

Also, there are always going to be exceptions to the "good martial artists = good people" rule. A bad apple is going to turn up here and there, and bring a black eye upon the community.

[exile]

I
Also, there are always going to be exceptions to the "good martial artists = good people" rule. A bad apple is going to turn up here and there, and bring a black eye upon the community.

All of this is true, but what to do about it? Your comparison of martial arts training to firearms possession makes perfect sense, but there are laws in place that require gun retailers to get certification that their customers do not have felony records. What is the status of martial arts instructors in this respect---can you demand the same proof from prospective clients that they do not criminal records? Of course you can ask them when they come to you, but that's pointless. If you want real proof at the gate that a potential student has a clean record, what is your legal recourse?

[Grenadier]

but there are laws in place that require gun retailers to get certification that their customers do not have felony records.


Not for private sales in most places. That's up to the individual. Let's keep the discussion on topic, though.



What is the status of martial arts instructors in this respect---can you demand the same proof from prospective clients that they do not criminal records? Of course you can ask them when they come to you, but that's pointless. If you want real proof at the gate that a potential student has a clean record, what is your legal recourse?

A good question indeed, although again, this does not really seem relevant to the original poster's topic. To this, I can only answer, that we can only act upon what we already know. The original poster had simply asked if we would give what I assume is a known offender, a chance.

Otherwise, if unknown characters come into your school, then you should give them the benefit of the doubt, as long as they aren't disruptive people.

[Drac]

On a side note, I read sowhere that gang members are actively sending their members to receive MA and military training to get back to the gang. How great is that huh?

Here is another aspect...Assisted in the arrest of a 19 yo male that had threatened a female..This male had ingested some type of drug and it took 2 officers to place this POS on the ground and cuff him..Imagine if he had the knowledge of targeting and striking??? That combined with his current state of feeling no pain could have / would have ended badly for all parties...

[Robert Lee]

People can change. As most should know M/A does not make you tougher then any good street fighter. It takes dedication in the M/A to get good at it. Sure you want to consider who you train. You will know how a person is changing there out look as you instruct them Viloence is like a drunk. If someone wants to change they try just as a drunk has to change and needs help to do so most often. People sometimes think M/a as some great power fighting machine. Thats is the joke about it. It is far from it if you fail to train hard and progress in it So i would think certion people that have been in trouble sure could improve there life by taking up the M/a and leaving there past behind them. There are several programs where M/A is taught to help people get out of gang life help them improve there self image by becoming a better person. It has worked for many and still will. Chuck Norris started kick drugs out of America helped many young people that were gang members or toubled. Theres other groups that reach out too. On a guard side of looking at prison inmates. remember they are in survival mode while doing the time. They have to live with those other inmates Sure some are just mean people Now those yes they probaly would not be able to reform But they probably would not take up M/A as a training just use a gun or knife. So its a so so idea some can become better people and build strengh not revert back to there past by learning a M/A and otheres well they would not benfit at all. But as said those would not seek the M/A out most often to learn it.

[DeLamar.J]

There are circumstances where it is necessary to deny a person training, but I will not deny someone because they have been in prison for something. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes, and its not right to hold it over their head forever. Also, anyone who trains with me knows how I feel about drugs and violence. Here is my little "misson statement" if you want to call it that.

I expect all those asking to train with us to be responsible, adult members of society. I will not accept students who condone acts which are illegal in this country or the country in which you reside. I do not and will never condone illegal, irresponsible behavior such as using illegal drugs, committing acts of unjustified violence, drinking blood, participating in cannibalism, or anything of that nature. Please note this before asking to train here.

Note how it says I dont want people who condone illegal acts, not people who have and are trying to change.

[Hand Sword]

I agree with all previous posts about criminals and the such. But, I would say, that IF the individual in question TRULY seeks redemption, The spiritual aspects of the martial arts can help.

[whitedragon_48]

drinking blood, participating in cannibalism, or anything of that nature. Please note this before asking to train here.

Dude! Are there many cannibal-vampires in Ohio?:whip1:

[DeLamar.J]

Dude! Are there many cannibal-vampires in Ohio?:whip1:
I know it sounds wierd to include a sentence like this, but I have to because of some of the philosophy I am into. I am very much involved in the teachings of Anton LaVey, so I must include certain things for people who misunderstand Anton LaVey's Satanism. Most people just assume that Satanism has things to do with hurting animals and drinking blood. It has nothing to do with anything of that nature, so I have to cover all my bases to keep the freaks away.

[whitedragon_48]

I know it sounds wierd to include a sentence like this, but I have to because of some of the philosophy I am into. I am very much involved in the teachings of Anton LaVey, so I must include certain things for people who misunderstand Anton LaVey's Satanism. Most people just assume that Satanism has things to do with hurting animals and drinking blood. It has nothing to do with anything of that nature, so I have to cover all my bases to keep the freaks away.

Ok... :xtrmshock

[Blotan Hunka]

I really dont understand how martial arts training is expected to change a persons personality in the first place. A highly disciplined group could instill discipline, but that would just mean a disciplined criminal. The fantasy that 1-2 martial arts classes a week is going to change someones core personality, formed over years and years of experience and environment, is just that. Fantasy.

[TraditionalTKD]

I think theoretically it is possible. Not for everybody, but for people who truly want to change, rather than just people who want to learn a style just to get back at the people who crossed them before.
That doesn't mean you should blindly allow any convicted felon to join your class. Some people are a risk and should not have this kind of access to the public.
This is where being an Instructor, rather than just a teacher of technique, comes in. First, an interview with the prospective student is in order, to get a feel for his attitudes and beliefs. Does he really want to change? Or just learn martial arts techniques? If it is decided he can be accepted in class, he needs to be watched closely for a lengthy period of time. How does he carry himself around certain students? Is he quick to anger? Does he go overboard in reacting to being contacted?
I think it is possible, under certain conditions, for people like this to use martial arts, especially traditional martial arts for redemption. However, this person can never be a Master and must be told as such. A Master can never have a criminal past as part of his record.

[whitedragon_48]

Well, in smaller schools like my own, I do have the luxury of doing that and I do. I'm afraid that the more comercial chains (McDojos), do not. But then, what harm can it makes? McDojos don't have a reputation for quality training. Yes he'll learn something, but the damage will not be much. Anyways, again, no redemption. He'll walk away a much poorer man thinking he learned something only to get his butt handed to him later on on the streets. Divine justice.:pinky1:

[Shotgun Buddha]

Why on earth would there be a link between martial arts and redemption? And who exactly decides what redemption is?

[DeLamar.J]

I know it sounds wierd to include a sentence like this, but I have to because of some of the philosophy I am into. I am very much involved in the teachings of Anton LaVey, so I must include certain things for people who misunderstand Anton LaVey's Satanism. Most people just assume that Satanism has things to do with hurting animals and drinking blood. It has nothing to do with anything of that nature, so I have to cover all my bases to keep the freaks away.
Is their any way to tell who is giving me rep points. Someone gave me a bad one for this post and my last one. I dont really mind the bad rep point because everyone has a right to their opinion, but I would at least like to know who gave it to me and why so I could understand the persons veiwpoint. I do enjoy discussing topics with peope who disagree, that may sound odd, but I think alot of growth and learning happens durring a civil debate.

[DeLamar.J]

Just got another bad one for my above post LOL!

[exile]

Why on earth would there be a link between martial arts and redemption? And who exactly decides what redemption is?

You got it in a nutshell. If you want `redemption' for some crime you committed, you start with the person or people you injured. If eventually they come to forgive you---and there's no reason to expect that they will, if you really damaged them---then you can start trying to repair the damage you did to the larger society. I don't see how learning to use an armbar across someone's throat to force them to the ground is connected to healing the injuries you inflicted.

[hongkongfooey]

Just got another bad one for my above post LOL!

Probably the same coward that zinged me a few days ago for expressing my opinion. But anyway, back on topic.

[The Master]

You got it in a nutshell. If you want `redemption' for some crime you committed, you start with the person or people you injured. If eventually they come to forgive you---and there's no reason to expect that they will, if you really damaged them---then you can start trying to repair the damage you did to the larger society. I don't see how learning to use an armbar across someone's throat to force them to the ground is connected to healing the injuries you inflicted.

Exactly


Is their any way to tell who is giving me rep points. Someone gave me a bad one for this post and my last one. I dont really mind the bad rep point because everyone has a right to their opinion, but I would at least like to know who gave it to me and why so I could understand the persons veiwpoint. I do enjoy discussing topics with peope who disagree, that may sound odd, but I think alot of growth and learning happens durring a civil debate.

Become a moderator.


Why on earth would there be a link between martial arts and redemption? And who exactly decides what redemption is?

Because aged Masters in some Asian arts eventually grew tired of blood and the smell of death, and reached beyond for something deeper, leading eventually to some rather interesting ideas.


I know it sounds wierd to include a sentence like this, but I have to because of some of the philosophy I am into. I am very much involved in the teachings of Anton LaVey, so I must include certain things for people who misunderstand Anton LaVey's Satanism. Most people just assume that Satanism has things to do with hurting animals and drinking blood. It has nothing to do with anything of that nature, so I have to cover all my bases to keep the freaks away.

I read his books, interesting concepts, more like standard New Age Paganism combined with carney showmanship than evil, demon spawn blood junk.


I agree with all previous posts about criminals and the such. But, I would say, that IF the individual in question TRULY seeks redemption, The spiritual aspects of the martial arts can help.

Provided one trains in a spiritual art. Plenty of arts without any mystical aspects.


Probably the same coward that zinged me a few days ago for expressing my opinion. But anyway, back on topic.

Um, they suck?

[Hand Sword]

Provided one trains in a spiritual art. Plenty of arts without any mystical aspects.



Sadly, True.

[Shotgun Buddha]

Because aged Masters in some Asian arts eventually grew tired of blood and the smell of death, and reached beyond for something deeper, leading eventually to some rather interesting ideas.


Still doesn't exactly qualify as redemption though. And considering that martial arts spirituality has its roots in Taoism and Zen Buddhism, the concept is a tad odd. Martial arts will not repair damage done, and studying it does not mean actions would be forgiven.
And if instead the OP was hinting at in some way coming back into harmony with the universe, martial arts is still not the best way to go.
"Becoming one with nature" would just involve following your natural impulses.
The only possible category I see this following into is a psychological one, where the person in question feels that martial arts training can in some way calm them or help them feel more at peace.
But thats still only satisfying an individuals psychological needs, it doesn't qualify as redeeming them to society, or any other individuals involved.

[Shotgun Buddha]

Sadly, True.

Thats relative really to what you would consider to be spiritual. If you take a Zen approach to it, emphasis of spirituality would in fact move away from the concept of spirituality, whereas focusing on training itself would be considered more in touch with it.

[Hand Sword]

True, but, you can only work on yourself, what has been done, was done. How others see you, they see you. But, now what? Give up and be what they think? Or, Live one day at a time, trying to improve yourself, and maybe gain forgiveness. Peopple CAN come back from it, may take a long time, but, it can happen. With Zen, focussing on improving themselves from the inside-out, They can begin that process.

[Shotgun Buddha]

True, but, you can only work on yourself, what has been done, was done. How others see you, they see you. But, now what? Give up and be what they think? Or, Live one day at a time, trying to improve yourself, and maybe gain forgiveness. Peopple CAN come back from it, may take a long time, but, it can happen. With Zen, focussing on improving themselves from the inside-out, They can begin that process.

Thats still basing who you are on what other view you as though. Its just instead of being how they think you are, its being how you'd like them to think of you.
Both approaches still rely too much on outside opinion. Instead they should be focusing only on how they feel , and follow where that leads them. A desire to improve should be based only on your own feelings, not someone elses.

[Hand Sword]

That's what I said or eluded too already.

[Shotgun Buddha]

That's what I said or eluded too already.

That can't be considered redemption then. Redemption would imply that there has been a transgression that needs to be forgiven, and that has to come from an external source.
Whereas what we're both bouncing around is the concept of enlightenment, which come internally. Whole different concept though.

[Hand Sword]

True, but you have to become more so first, and live that way to get that external source, or have any chance of that source, to look at you that way. Based on the need to change who you are inside, The M.A.'s can help. Criminals are people, The M.A.'s benefit people, if they are willing to acept those benefits.

All I'm saying is Redemption is a process by all involved. However, it first starts with the offending individual. They first have to change their behaviors, which stems from their thinking. With that the Martial Arts, strongly based in the spiritual side, can be of assistance. Remember, people study the arts for different reasons. Bettering themselves is one of them.

[Shotgun Buddha]

True, but you have to become more so first, and live that way to get that external source, or have any chance of that source, to look at you that way. Based on the need to change who you are inside, The M.A.'s can help. Criminals are people, The M.A.'s benefit people, if they are willing to acept those benefits.

All I'm saying is Redemption is a process by all involved. However, it first starts with the offending individual. They first have to change their behaviors, which stems from their thinking. With that the Martial Arts, strongly based in the spiritual side, can be of assistance. Remember, people study the arts for different reasons. Bettering themselves is one of them.

Any bettering that a person recieves from a martial art falls into one of two categories.
Either its they gain something from the discipline and training.
Or else its a psychological effect where they develop traits which they percieve as being present in training in martial arts.

I agree that people can better themselves through martial arts, but that is not something we have a monopoly on. Those same imrpovements could be gained from almost any source, its just we choose to attach the qualites to the medium of martial arts, and develop them through it.
They're only there because we want them to be, and attach them to it.

[w.kaer]

Is their any way to tell who is giving me rep points. Someone gave me a bad one for this post and my last one. I dont really mind the bad rep point because everyone has a right to their opinion, but I would at least like to know who gave it to me and why so I could understand the persons veiwpoint. I do enjoy discussing topics with peope who disagree, that may sound odd, but I think alot of growth and learning happens durring a civil debate.
DeLamar J.-
Check the user CP. There is a breakdown of rep points there.

[MJS]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation on topic. In addition, if anyone feels that they're being unfairly targeted via the rep system, please feel free to contact an Admin.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Supermod

[Blotan Hunka]

One only has to search through some of the threads here to find stories about martial arts instructors that were arrested for rape, murder, pedaphillia, etc. The whole "spiritual" aspect of martial arts self-improvement is an Asiophille myth IMO. There are very few instructors qualified to be selling "spiritual improvement" in the first place, and if I were one I wouldnt want to be responsible for your "spiritual development" to begin with. Redemption/development begins and ends with you.

[Hand Sword]

Any bettering that a person recieves from a martial art falls into one of two categories.
Either its they gain something from the discipline and training.
Or else its a psychological effect where they develop traits which they percieve as being present in training in martial arts.

I agree that people can better themselves through martial arts, but that is not something we have a monopoly on. Those same imrpovements could be gained from almost any source, its just we choose to attach the qualites to the medium of martial arts, and develop them through it.
They're only there because we want them to be, and attach them to it.

I agree with you. I was just addressing the question of can Martial Art training help.

[Hand Sword]

One only has to search through some of the threads here to find stories about martial arts instructors that were arrested for rape, murder, pedaphillia, etc. The whole "spiritual" aspect of martial arts self-improvement is an Asiophille myth IMO. There are very few instructors qualified to be selling "spiritual improvement" in the first place, and if I were one I wouldnt want to be responsible for your "spiritual development" to begin with. Redemption/development begins and ends with you.
Sadly true about that. But in full agreement with the "you" part. I said that earlier. The person has to want to change first.

[Shotgun Buddha]

I agree with you. I was just addressing the question of can Martial Art training help.

No worries, I just like ranting ;)