I was wondering...

how do you all feel about the use of kiais? Personally, I feel pretty silly and like to just make sure I exhale sharply, so its basically a kiai minus the noise. Does anyone else do this? or are traditional kiais more effective?

Originally posted by nightingale8472

I was wondering...

how do you all feel about the use of kiais? Personally, I feel pretty silly and like to just make sure I exhale sharply, so its basically a kiai minus the noise. Does anyone else do this? or are traditional kiais more effective?

My thoughts exactly!!!!!

I agree nighingale, I very rarely do a kiai, and it is not mandatory in our training to do so.

Some styles demand it, as an example, the IKCA demands that you "growl" through the whole technique not just at the end. I think it's a little odd, and distracting from what you are doing.

I like to call the silent breathing and kiai, my stealth mode of kenpo. ;)

I do a punctuated growl.

It isn't like I'm saying "grrrr" :) but more of a sustained sound that comes from the back of the throat. When I strike I tend to punctuate the growl with a major "huh." I think I developed this in kajukenbo, which was pretty hardstyle, but had the kenpo fluidity too.

Is it your experience that women feel more uncomfortable kiaiing than men? Most of the women I know say they feel silly.

Incidently, the kiai in the philosophical sense doesn't have anything to do with a yell, it refers to a clashing of spirits, how you project your spirit is up to you.

Lamont

I think in general, men as a whole are more used to shouting than women...

think about it...

how many women do you see shouting at football players?

how many women shout at football players ON TELEVISION?

Originally posted by nightingale8472

I think in general, men as a whole are more used to shouting than women...

think about it...

how many women do you see shouting at football players?

how many women shout at football players ON TELEVISION?

ROFL! I've seen one or two WHISTLE at football players LOL

whistling is another matter entirely. :hmmph:


I've never whistled at a football player... now Mel Gibson in a kilt is another story, of course.

Originally posted by Blindside

I do a punctuated growl.

It isn't like I'm saying "grrrr" :) but more of a sustained sound that comes from the back of the throat. When I strike I tend to punctuate the growl with a major "huh." I think I developed this in kajukenbo, which was pretty hardstyle, but had the kenpo fluidity too.



I tend to do the same thing Lamont. But on occasion on the last strike I kiai.

Michael

a bit like a word one shoudln't say in public. Usually it seems to be a result of biting on the mouthpiece then doing the kiai. Never sounds like that in forms, only in a technique line. I didn't realize it until someone pointed it out. I couldn't help but think the other guy is supposed to say S%^&!

R

I see some of the pepole don't run thuough the tecs.hard on the body.It helps on both sides of the tec. For the hitting and the one being hit. The one hitting can cause a burst of power or speed like a boxer.now the target needs to expell air quickly You cant pop a empty ballon[LUNGS]and if you just exhale or blow hot air your abdomen will not clinch for impact.





I would rather feel silly and KIAI than feel stupied looking for my



.... B r e a t h....

hehe... yes sir, Mr. Grilli, Sir.

I used to feel silly when kiaiing. But more than a decade later, I feel no such thing. The alleged fear thing aside, kiai does do a few things for you. First off, it allows you to really focus your breathing and strikes while allowing them to harmonize. That's just on the striking/blocking end. I have actually seen people kiai in a way that is completely worthless, and was less than tactful about telling alleged "Masters" that they were either taught by a clueless moron or were worse, clueless morons themselves. A kiai executed properly is just as much a part of a technique as a twist, torque, or snap. It has to be executed properly and at the proper time. On the defensive end of it, a kiai gives rigidity to the abdominal muscles that normally are not instantly attainable. The other thing that happens when one kiais properly is that it dumps adrenalin into the blood stream. As we all know, adrenalin allows heightened strength and speed. Adrenalin also contains endorphins, the body's natural pain killer. So in conclusion, some may thinka kiai is silly, foolish or worthless, but I invite you to investigate it a bit more. You'll find yourself kiaing with pride.
:asian:

The Kiai also works very well with startling or paralyzing the opponent, and it draws his attention away from the strike.
I was attacked once on the street by two hoodlums, the first got me in a choke hold from behind, and his buddy was kicking me as we wrestled into the ground in a staircase. They also put a cloth in my face and I assume was trying to drug me unconscious. Now I was under the guy in a chokehold and could barely move, and I had to hold my breath while this other guy was kicking me. I got a little opening and hit the guy holding me in the nuts, this got me just enough room so I could wrestle into something like a lapel grab, and the guy dropped his cloth. What happened then was I let out this almost unvoluntary crazy loud, deep kiai, as I pushed down on the guy holding me. Now the other guy kicking me just took off! And the guy under me almost let go of his hold on me, so I could loosen my grab, punched him hard in the face a couple of times, and then I just ran like hell out in to the street to look for police.
Against untrained opponents or people who hasn`t been exposed to martial arts, the kiai is very unsuspected and seems exstremely violent when done with real focus and power. Nothing like a good surprise attack from behind to give you focus.

Hrmm, sometimes we get told to do them, usually when we have a kick lineup going, so if everyone's doing it it's not so bad.

If he hasn't said that, I usually do one not quite so loud, but I can't really kick without one anymore, doesn't feel right!

As for techniques, mt breathing is all wrong when I'm doing them at the moment anyway, I reckon it's my single biggest problem. If I don't make some sort of noise, then I just hold my breath all the way through the technique, which is terrible and needs sorting out! If I do make noise when I do them, it's more like a series of sharp hisses and usually a bit of a grunt on the finishing move; does feel a bit daft though!

I don't think it matters as much if I'm working with the higher belts, as we all do it, but if you work with lower belts they tend not to have learnt it yet, and so look at you a bit strangely!

Ian.

The thing most people don't realize about a Kiai, and it sounds if you are figuring it out Ian, is that it should not be forced. Remember, no one taught us how to breathe when we were born, they smacked us and we screamed, or in my case, they smacked my mother and she screamed. A kiai should be the natural culmination of your bodies movement. If you are breathing in a normal fashion and do an explosive movement, the breath should also explode from your lungs. What is voice other than air passing over the vocal cords? So, in other words, if it feels natural to exhale sharply/violently while moving, do it.

Originally posted by nightingale8472

I was wondering...

how do you all feel about the use of kiais? Personally, I feel pretty silly and like to just make sure I exhale sharply, so its basically a kiai minus the noise. Does anyone else do this? or are traditional kiais more effective?


Kiai serves more than just grunting around like a big ape.
I understand you feeling odd about doing it...........as you should since it is part of a different culture than yours.

There is one line of thought that says the Japanese kanji for kiai has meaning.......and that would be ki or chi and ai meaning to meet.
Hence the definition= meeting with ki, or the meeting of ki of focusing of ki.

Sounds like an OK definition, but one thing doing a kiai does do is scare the living daylights out of someone.
Walk up to someone and scream in their face and see what happens.

Some others say that the kiai that is done at certain point in kata from Okinawa have a special meaning and are actually important for technique.

you got to have Spirit, confidence, guts, to pull off a technique right?
So you got to have an expression of that too.
Mr. Planas will give you heck if you do not have enough Spirit in your basics, or in a technique line!

Originally posted by nightingale8472

I was wondering...

how do you all feel about the use of kiais? Personally, I feel pretty silly and like to just make sure I exhale sharply, so its basically a kiai minus the noise. Does anyone else do this? or are traditional kiais more effective?

I just noticed that Mr. LaBounty has written some thoughts about this on his website
http://www.thesigung.com/
specifically
http://www.thesigung.com/kiai.html

This appears to be part one of a multi-part article.

Originally posted by nightingale8472

I was wondering...

how do you all feel about the use of kiais? Personally, I feel pretty silly and like to just make sure I exhale sharply, so its basically a kiai minus the noise. Does anyone else do this? or are traditional kiais more effective?

There are three reasons for a Kiai.

1. To expel air when you get hit or fall so air is not epended involuntarily

2. To increase the power of your strike

3. To scare your opponent

I teach these to my students in this order of priority.
The belly-breathing Mr. Labounty speaks of should be your natural method of breathing as well because the air should not come from your lungs but rather from your abdomen. A Kiai should not be long and drawn out like I've seen way too many people do, but rather like a gunshot, loud and short.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Originally posted by nightingale8472

I was wondering...

how do you all feel about the use of kiais? Personally, I feel pretty silly and like to just make sure I exhale sharply, so its basically a kiai minus the noise. Does anyone else do this? or are traditional kiais more effective?

When I am teaching females or kids, I combine the use of the kiai with mental attitude.

I tell them......

'Here is someone who is trying to hurt you (or) control you, and they have no right to do that. What do we say to someone who is doing something they shouldn't? We say NO!'

I have them shout out the 'NO' with their block or strike.

Another benefit of this is that it brings attention to the situation, which will not be in the attackers favour.

Les

The "noise" of the KIAI or spirit yell, I was told, gave you the spiritual edge over your opponent. I've even heard stories of people knocking other people out with just a kiai. In my opinion it's all a bunch of hu-hah.

Boxers exhale through their noise, (i.e. mouth closed, jaw tight) to keep their jaws from getting broken when they take a shot. The main reason they exhale when they punch is to tighten up their mid-section (the abdominal wall), for the simple fact that when they throw a punch they create an opening in their defense.

In the case of martial arts it works the same, but "noise" gives you a little extra psychological edge. Afterall, who's crazy enough to yell while they fight :mad:. Unfortunately, it won't give you an edge for long, if it does work in that manner. In the case of women, yelling "NO" while executing strikes is pretty normal. The best thing you can do is draw attention (and possibly help) to yourself.

If you are already SURE that you are tightening up and breathing properly without all the yelling, I don't see that much of an added benefit. Most guys that are willing to fight (egotists) aren't going to back down cause you said KIAI.

Let your skill speak for itself.

This is just my opinion, and most probably won't agree.

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Boxers exhale through their noise, (i.e. mouth closed, jaw tight) to keep their jaws from getting broken when they take a shot.

You can also exhale through your mouth but just make sure your mouth isn't open or it makes it easier to get KTFO.
:iws:

I remeber one martialartist put this way. If a kiai gave you more power than why don"t we see more baseball players doing a
kiai to make the ball clear the wall more often. Any thoughts

Originally posted by D_Brady

I remeber one martialartist put this way. If a kiai gave you more power than why don"t we see more baseball players doing a
kiai to make the ball clear the wall more often. Any thoughts

That's a different kind of power, have you ever listened to a Tennis match?

very good, let me ask have you ever noticed in some styles they put more focus on the kiai it self than the kick or strike being executed.

Originally posted by D_Brady

very good, let me ask have you ever noticed in some styles they put more focus on the kiai it self than the kick or strike being executed.

Yes I have, and I think that's a little overboard if you ask me.

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo

There are three reasons for a Kiai.

1. To expel air when you get hit or fall so air is not epended involuntarily

2. To increase the power of your strike

3. To scare your opponent

I teach these to my students in this order of priority.
The belly-breathing Mr. Labounty speaks of should be your natural method of breathing as well because the air should not come from your lungs but rather from your abdomen. A Kiai should not be long and drawn out like I've seen way too many people do, but rather like a gunshot, loud and short.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

That is good clyde. I would have to say you are "correct". LOL JK. :p
I do agree with what you said. And i teach it the very same way!

Originally posted by Prof.Kenpo
There are three reasons for a Kiai.

1. To expel air when you get hit or fall so air is not epended involuntarily
2. To increase the power of your strike
3. To scare your opponent
I teach these to my students in this order of priority.Clyde

I do agree with Clyde on this but I totally disagree with the priority that I teach to students.

Consider.....
1. Increased Power and Stabilization
2. Self Protection to tighten certain body parts
during a potential hit or fall.
3. To startle an opponent.

I switch Clyde's number 2 to 1 for the simple reason that logic dictates the "main" Purpose is settling, power development, and self fortification/protection thru proper breathing.

If you do it for Clyde's reasoning....... you are assuming that you are going to be "HIT" or fall and that may not happen at all, "the object is to avoid being struck during an attack" ......... although it is a possibility which is why I prioritize it as number 2.

We agree on 3.

:asian:

Another advantage to kias from the instuructor's point of view is that their can be no doubt that the student is exhaling when they kia. This could be useful when teaching large classes.

At the end of the kids class, I usually say....

'And don't forget to practice your kiai's at home'

It's a great way of keeping the parents involved in their kids training :)

Les

In my expierience the Kiai has been used as a training tool to remind begining students to breath while performing a technique. However the focus on the actual noise component of the kiai is often reduced once their breathing becomes more natural during their training. On another note by teaching someone to kiai with force can aid them in learning to strike with force. Just try not to strike with force while screaming at the top of your lungs, its not that easy. If you have a shy or introverted student that has difficulty learning to execute their strikes with confidence and force, then the kiai may help them get over that hurdle. I will still Kiai on occation, usually when I really get into the zone, and I don't even know I'm doing it.