Modern arnis lineage?

[tmanifold]

I read a post awhile back that mention Grandmaster E. Preras, I assumed that to be his son. Then I saw an ad for GM Jeff Delany, the designated successor to Remy Presas. I got to thinking and came up with some questions.
How many people are trying to claim they are Prof. Presas successor?
What are these people using to back up their claims?
Is there a consensus successor (or two or three that stand out) or not?

I am not really concerned with the politics or who is better, I am just curious because I don't really know much about the system's organization.

Thanks for any answers,
Tony

[Bob Hubbard]

E. Presas is probably Ernesto, who is grandmaster of his own system. Jeff Delaney is the only person currently claiming to be Grandmaster of Modern Arnis, and there is much controversy surrounding that claim.

Right now, the question of succession has many answers, yet none clear.

The MOTTs under Dr. Schea's IMAF appear to have the most legal of claims to the continuing of GM Remy Presas' work.

The Presas family has been active since their fathers death last year on the seminar system to good reviews. They have been joined by several of the older blackbelts from the Phillipians.

The Datus have been continuing the legacy in many ways...Kelly Worden recently released a special knife dedicated to the memory of Professor Presas, and Tim Hartman has been traveling the world promoting the art, to name 2 examples.

Other independants such as Dr. Barber and Dan Anderson have been highly visible lately in promoting a Modern Arnis Symposium, and several books on the art (respectivly)

Bram Frank, Dieter Knüttel, David Hoffman, and many others have also been very visible keeping the art alive and visible. I've missed mentioning many other folks only due to my faulty memory.


Give a good read thru this forum, and you'll see alot of the movers in the art posting. Hopefully some of them are close enough to you to offer the chance to train.

:asian:

[arnisador]

He is one of the Professor's brothers. He called his system Modern Arnis for a while but now calls it Kombatan.

No one person is widely accepted as the Professor's successor. Mr. Delaney, Dr. Schea, Dr. Remy Presas Jr., and Mr. Hartman could all make plausible claims to this status.

[tmanifold]

What about Mr. Delany's claim that he is the designated successor? Does he hav any paper work to back it up or is it just a word of mouth thing?

Tony

[Dan Anderson]

Tmanifold,
To answer a couple of questions for you:

"How many people are trying to claim they are Prof. Presas successor? Is there a consensus successor (or two or three that stand out) or not?"

1) So far nobody has come out and claimed that he/she is the successor to Remy Presas except for Jeff Delaney. 2) There is no "consensus successor" as of yet. there are a number of us who stand out, though, in the Modern Arnis world.

"What about Mr. Delany's claim that he is the designated successor? Does he have any paper work to back it up or is it just a word of mouth thing?"

I don't know and haven't heard anything of actual paperwork of his succession. It was put up on the IMAF website (when it was one organization and not two) about he and Randi Schea being designated "co-successors." Guro Dan McConnell of Ohio and a member of the board of directors of IMAF, Inc. did say he has seen Masters of Tapi-Tapi certificates actually issued by Prof. Presas.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
Founder, Modern Arnis 80

[tmanifold]

Thanks for the info.
So essentially this isn't a Wing Chun thing where every one of Prof. Presas' students is cliaming to be the Next GM?

If so, it is about time. Good for you guys.

Tony

[Red Blade]

Originally posted by tmanifold

I read a post awhile back that mention Grandmaster E. Preras, I assumed that to be his son. Then I saw an ad for GM Jeff Delany, the designated successor to Remy Presas. I got to thinking and came up with some questions.
How many people are trying to claim they are Prof. Presas successor?
What are these people using to back up their claims?
Is there a consensus successor (or two or three that stand out) or not?

I am not really concerned with the politics or who is better, I am just curious because I don't really know much about the system's organization.

Thanks for any answers,
Tony

I can't tell you about the others but, I was in Toronto for a seminar with GM R. Presas and Datu Hartman was also teaching. At the end of the seminar GM Presas announced that Datu Hartman was one of his successors. If I'm not mistaken Jaybacca mentioned this in an other thread a while ago also.

R.B.

[Dan Anderson]

Hi Red,
In different parts of the US, Prof. Presas mentioned different individuals to be successors. He mentioned to a group of us that he had about 10 people around the country who were going to succeed him. He never did broadly communicate and name an ultimate supreme grandmaster to succeed him although if you read my previous post, Jeff Delaney claims he did name him and Randi Schea.

There are a number of us seniors who are continuing the art and for the most part, are getting along just fine.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[bloodwood]

Dan,
Do you know who the 10 people are?

[Dan Anderson]

Blood,
Sorry, no hard data on that one. I can only guess that the highest ranking guys were on the list. Tim, Dieter, Chuck, Shishir, Randi and myself are the first ones who come to mind. I know there are others who will come to mind after I send off this post. At the time he was speaking regionally as well (e.g. me on the west coast, Tim in the northeast, etc.). It's too bad RP was not a "put it on paper" kind of guy. Oh, well...

Yours,
Dan

[bloodwood]

Was there any mention by RP of his children taking over the organization or at least being part of a group of leaders. They seemed to be estranged from him until just before he passed.

My sources also tell me that several people were named in his WILL to guide Modern Arnis. I still think there should be answers as to the contents of his WILL and to WHO is holding up or blocking probating it. Smells fishy to me.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by bloodwood

Was there any mention by RP of his children taking over the organization or at least being part of a group of leaders.

No.

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by bloodwood

Was there any mention by RP of his children taking over the organization or at least being part of a group of leaders. They seemed to be estranged from him until just before he passed.

My sources also tell me that several people were named in his WILL to guide Modern Arnis. I still think there should be answers as to the contents of his WILL and to WHO is holding up or blocking probating it. Smells fishy to me.

Oh Geez -
Please don't even bring up the will.

Oy! (and I'm not even Jewish)

Dan

[dearnis.com]

The will(s) has to/have to come up sometime. (well, maybe not; maybe it/they will be sat on indefinately...)
In one sense the sooner everything is out on the table, the sooner we can all get on with getting on. Waiting 1, 2 , or more years will only serve to destroy whatever stability has evolved up to that point.
(though to agree with what I think is Dan's intent, maybe better if it/they were never seen)
Chad

[arnisador]

The part of it dealing with Modern Arnis, that is--his financial affairs are irrelevant.

[dearnis.com]

Exactly; the part(s) dealing with the arts.

[modarnis]

Originally posted by dearnis.com

The will(s) has to/have to come up sometime. (well, maybe not; maybe it/they will be sat on indefinately...)
In one sense the sooner everything is out on the table, the sooner we can all get on with getting on. Waiting 1, 2 , or more years will only serve to destroy whatever stability has evolved up to that point.
(though to agree with what I think is Dan's intent, maybe better if it/they were never seen)
Chad

The Professor died in Canada, living as a Canadian. His wills were executed in the U.S. While they may serve as evidence of his intent, as a matter of law he died intestate (that is without a will) and his property/cash will be dispersed based on Canadian rules of intestacy

Brett

[bloodwood]

His property and cash are none of our business but the intent part certainly is. So even though his final will that was done in the USA is invalid for legal purposes, his intent for the future of his art does not fall in that catagory. It only matters to us. So who's got it???

[Rich Parsons]

General Question to everyone,

I understand that some would believe that the Will could solve all the legitimate issues. But what if it said something you did not want to hear? Would you then stop training with who you are now and train with them?

Yes it would be good to know his last intention, but then again he (Remy) Talked to many people before his death and urged many if not all to continue the art. Get involved. Do what you think is correct. So, does the last thing said or the last thing written carry more word?

Did the Professor, have a sound mind when he told some people some things? Or was he under pain and or pain killers?

This leads back to the first Question, would it really change who your training with? Would the 'truth' allow you to know some higher secret? Would it allow you to legally go after the rest of the people teaching Arnis, not associated with the one or ones listed in the Will?

Sorry for the Diatribe, Just some questions I felt like asking. Your answers would be greatly appreciated.

Rich

[bloodwood]

The way things have played out in the last year or so can make a good case for not knowing what is in Professor's will. However just the fact that there is a will out there with Professor's intentions, is intriguing, and having it sequestered just makes it more mysterious. Maybe what we don't know won't hurt us. I guess it could clear some things up but also make some things cloudier. Personally, I'd rather live dangerously and know.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by bloodwood

The way things have played out in the last year or so can make a good case for not knowing what is in Professor's will. However just the fact that there is a will out there with Professor's intentions, is intriguing, and having it sequestered just makes it more mysterious. Maybe what we don't know won't hurt us. I guess it could clear some things up but also make some things cloudier. Personally, I'd rather live dangerously and know.

Bloodwood,

As long as it is curiousity, I am with you and would like to know jsut for the sake of knowing.

Rich

[bloodwood]

A good friend of mine is the Register of Wills in a major US City. I gave him the particulars of the Professor's case and asked how it would be handled. He said that even though the Professor lived as a Canadian and died there, but his will was made in the USA, the will would be honored by the Canadian Government but subject to Canadian Tax laws and such. So, any dispersants of property or cash and intentions for the future of his organization would be upheld by Canada as long as they got their share. Who ever is holding the will is using the Canada/USA thing to confuse the issue and keep the will from being made public. There is no intestate here just somebody with something to loose. If a man takes the time to make his last wishes known, then that is exactly what should be done. Whether we like what was written or not , makes no difference at all.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by bloodwood

A good friend of mine is the Register of Wills in a major US City. I gave him the particulars of the Professor's case and asked how it would be handled. He said that even though the Professor lived as a Canadian and died there, but his will was made in the USA, the will would be honored by the Canadian Government but subject to Canadian Tax laws and such. So, any dispersants of property or cash and intentions for the future of his organization would be upheld by Canada as long as they got their share. Who ever is holding the will is using the Canada/USA thing to confuse the issue and keep the will from being made public. There is no intestate here just somebody with something to loose. If a man takes the time to make his last wishes known, then that is exactly what should be done. Whether we like what was written or not , makes no difference at all.


Good for you to go get some more data. Could you ask your friend for some resources online that would help educate me and others of things like this?

Thanks

Rich

[Bob Hubbard]

ok...so.....

whose got the will.... and....

when should it be made public, legally?

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

ok...so.....

whose got the will.... and....

when should it be made public, legally?

The Will What Will? (* Sarcasm here guys *)

It should have ben made public ASAP afer RP's death, unless his instructions were otherwise.

[bloodwood]

My friend says he can find out about the will, but it has to be probatet first and he would need to know at least in which state it was probated to track it. He says he can help me but I don't have enough info yet. Anybody with any details to offer, please do so and I'll see what I can do.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by bloodwood

My friend says he can find out about the will, but it has to be probatet first and he would need to know at least in which state it was probated to track it. He says he can help me but I don't have enough info yet. Anybody with any details to offer, please do so and I'll see what I can do.

Bloodwood,

While this is great and beyond what I was asking, Imeant to say could your friend help with abstract information. I mean how to get a will, How to deal with Interstate or intercountry wills.

I was hoping for a website I could go browse.

Thanks

Rich

[bloodwood]

Rich,
I'll call the girls in his office in the morning, they handle most of the work and should be able to give me some direction on what you are asking.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by bloodwood

Rich,
I'll call the girls in his office in the morning, they handle most of the work and should be able to give me some direction on what you are asking.


Doumo Arigato Gozaimashita Bloodwood-san

:asian:

[bloodwood]

OK, I called the girls and this is what I got.

They ran a check for the USA and nothing has been registered or probated here our country.

Several people in the office re-affirmed that Canada would abide by a will made in the USA but subject to their laws.

Next step is to call the Canadian Consulate ( which they gave me the # for) and get the # for the Canadian version of Register of Wills, and have them do a search. I will try and do this after the weekend.

If nothing turns up there this could be the end of the line. It would mean that someone and some lawyer are sitting on a copy and the original will. Unless either does something no info will be available to the public. There also may may be more than one will, but if one surfaces probably others will follow. That would make the latest date real one.

This could be a full time job.

:rtfm:

[bloodwood]

So far I'm running into nothing but dead ends. Certain things I've been hearing lead me to believe that if the Professor's assets were dispersed before he passed (which seems to be the case), there would be no reason for whoever has the will to have it probated, therefore putting an end to finding out it's contents. I've heard that there was to be an international board of a couple dozen people to guide the IMAF but no one was named as of the Professor's passing. This is not fact just hearsay.

This information leaves us in the position of continuing the Professor's art without a designated successor. (JD was temporary successor until Remy got better. He was needed to fill in the Professor's seminar schedule.) If anybody believes different we'll leave that for another discussion.

Now this leaves us in our current state of affairs. Good, bad, fair or unfair it's what we've got so let's carry on to the best of our ability and take Modern Arnis into the future with pride and civility.

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by bloodwood

Now this leaves us in our current state of affairs. Good, bad, fair or unfair it's what we've got so let's carry on to the best of our ability and take Modern Arnis into the future with pride and civility.

Hear hear! Onward!

Yours,
Dan Anderson