Wado Ryu

[celtic bhoy]

If I wanted to pick a style of karate for self defence and not competition, would Wado Ryu be a good all round style to choose.

Could anyone tell me more about the style.

Regards

[arnisador]

Wado-ryu is a Japanese style with a heavy jujutsu influence.

You might also use the Search (http://www.martialtalk.com/search.php?s=) facility to find more discussion, e.g.:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3734

[Chiduce]

Wado Ryu Karate was registered in 1934 by Hironori Ohtsuka as an independent style. It combines several jujutsu arts, which seems to stress the foundation art of Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujitsu. the url for this interesting martial style is http://www.wikf.com/wado.htm
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

[RyuShiKan]

These links might have something you need:


http://www.wado-ryu.org/wadoryu/wadohist.asp

http://www.wado-ryu.org/wadoryu/ohtsuka.asp


What I find kind of weird is Ohtsuka was appointed Japan's Chief karate Instructor in 1944.

From the URL:
"In 1944, Ohtsuka Sensei was appointed Japans Chief Karate Instructor."


Why? There were MANY teachers in Japan that out ranked him.
His own teacher, Funakoshi, for starters.

[Sensei Mike]

From the URL: "In 1944, Ohtsuka Sensei was appointed Japans Chief Karate Instructor."

Why? There were MANY teachers in Japan that out ranked him. His own teacher, Funakoshi, for starters.
At the risk of sounding politically incorrect, I wonder if it could have anything to do with the fact that the great karateka in Japan in 1944 were primarily Okinawan?

Ohtsuka was an acknowledged expert in Japanese arts, which would seem to make him amply qualified......... from the Japanese point of view of course.

Mabuni, when he went to Osaka in the mid 20's, faced a great deal of racism.

My apologies if I have offended anyone's sensibilities.

But please remember how difficult it was just recently for many Japanese to accept a sumo yokozuna, (grand champion) that was of non-Japanese origin.

No aspersions meant, just an observation.

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Sensei Mike


At the risk of sounding politically incorrect, I wonder if it could have anything to do with the fact that the great karateka in Japan in 1944 were primarily Okinawan?

Ohtsuka was an acknowledged expert in Japanese arts, which would seem to make him amply qualified......... from the Japanese point of view of course.

Mabuni, when he went to Osaka in the mid 20's, faced a great deal of racism.

My apologies if I have offended anyone's sensibilities.

But please remember how difficult it was just recently for many Japanese to accept a sumo yokozuna, (grand champion) that was of non-Japanese origin.

No aspersions meant, just an observation.
I think you're correct. Besides, Funakoshi Sensei never had any "Dan" rank and he was issued a "Renshi" teaching certificate by Butokukai.

:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by kenmpoka


I think you're correct. Besides, Funakoshi Sensei never had any "Dan" rank and he was issued a "Renshi" teaching certificate by Butokukai.

:asian:

Actually Funakoshi was awarded a 5th dan from the Butokukai.
He received it on the recomendation of his student Kuniyoshi who was a memeber through a different martial art.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Sensei Mike


At the risk of sounding politically incorrect, I wonder if it could have anything to do with the fact that the great karateka in Japan in 1944 were primarily Okinawan?

Ohtsuka was an acknowledged expert in Japanese arts, which would seem to make him amply qualified......... from the Japanese point of view of course.

Mabuni, when he went to Osaka in the mid 20's, faced a great deal of racism.

But please remember how difficult it was just recently for many Japanese to accept a sumo yokozuna, (grand champion) that was of non-Japanese origin.



It most likely had something to do with his being from Okinawa as well as the "good ol' boy" network that is so prevalent in Japan even to this day as well as the Japanese being control freaks. Meaning they want to be in charge of everything they get their hands on. There was no way in hell they were going to let Karate be run by a bunch "country bumpkins" from Okinawa. (sarcasm)

There were several more qualified people in Japan that probably should have been put in charge of karate.

Mabuni Kenwa (in many ways Funakoshi's senior)
Funakoshi
Motobu Choki (although this would have been difficult since he couldn't speak Japanese)

As for the sumo and Yokozuna.......that's is a "pure" Japanese art and as I and several other foreigners in Japan have been informed by Japanese about Japanese arts "you can never understand it because you are not Japanese". Let's just say the sleazy world of Sumo could fill up a whole other thread.

[RyuShiKan]

Just as an extra thought on all this Funakoshi stuff.

I do recall Funakoshi mentioning in his book Karate Do My Way of Life a certain passage of how he thought mixing Karate with another art like Jujutsu was not good. I wonder if Funakoshi said this was because karate already contains a grappling art (tuite) or was Funakoshi miffed at Ohtsuka for some reason.....

[chufeng]

As I understand it...Funakoshi was asked to go to Japan to represent karate because the guy who was much better than Funakoshi would have killed a Japanese if he went...the idea was to smooth out relations, not create an international incident.

...it's what I heard :idunno:

chufeng

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng

As I understand it...Funakoshi was asked to go to Japan to represent karate because the guy who was much better than Funakoshi would have killed a Japanese if he went...the idea was to smooth out relations, not create an international incident.

...it's what I heard :idunno:

chufeng


According to some Motobu Choki was supposed to go but couldn't speak Japanese, so Funakoshi went instead.

Funakoshi went ONLY because he could speak Japanese and was a school teacher (something that gets a lot of respect in Japan), he was never noted for his skill in Karate at least not in Okinawa anyway. There were too many other Karateka in Okinawa that could blow Funakoshi's doors off when it came to karate knowledge and technique.
In fact, ironically, while in Tokyo Motobu got tired of Funakoshi's trash talking him and paid him a visit where Motobu dropped Funakoshi in front of Funakoshi's own students.
This incident may have lead to several of Funakoshi's students joining Motobu's dojo........don't know for sure though.

Actually Funakoshi was never officially "asked" to go to Japan. This is something that has been blown out of proportion. His friend was a teacher at a University in Japan and said something to the effect of "Why don't you come up to Japan?". The reason he took the offer is he was about to be transferred to a small island (even by Okinawan standards) school pretty much cut off from anything. Basically career suicide.
This is why his first job in Japan was as a "handy man" at the University where his friend worked and not a Karate teacher. Only after a lot of networking did he ever become a karate teacher.

[arnisador]

Were the dialects significantly more dissimilar circa 1920? I thought the Japanese and Okinawans could undersatnd one another.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador

Were the dialects significantly more dissimilar circa 1920? I thought the Japanese and Okinawans could undersatnd one another.


Contrary to what some western martial "historians" would have you believe the original language on Okinawa is not a dialect of Japanese but an entirely different language. Okinawan is actually closer to Chinese than Japanese. There are however 3 main dialects of Okinawan which are similar to each other.

[arnisador]

I understand that academic linguists currently consider Okinawan a dialect of Japanese and not a separate language--this in contrast to the Ryukyuans' insistence that it's a separate language. I shall have to delve further into the history of this as it appears to be more complicated than I had realized. We have a Japanese language prof. who is in fact from Japan originally who I will quiz.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador

I understand that academic linguists currently consider Okinawan a dialect of Japanese and not a separate language--this in contrast to the Ryukyuans' insistence that it's a separate language. I shall have to delve further into the history of this as it appears to be more complicated than I had realized. We have a Japanese language prof. who is in fact from Japan originally who I will quiz.

One problem I find when asking Japanese anything about Okinawa they seem to always say that Okinawa is either related or part of Japan. They will insist karate is Japanese until you actually give them dates and names as to when it came over.

I too have also heard that some Japanese linguists are trying to say Okinawan is a form of Japanese, but I have yet found one that speaks Okinawan. It would seem the Japanese are still trying to "Japanify" Okinawa by claiming such things.

Okinawa was a separate country up until the late 1800's.
It was a tributary state of China far longer than it has been connected to Japan so it would only make sense that it would linguistically be closer to China.

An Example:

Okinawan:
"Wan ya ichun" (I am going)

Chinese:
"Wo yau chu" (I am going)

Japanese:
"Watashi wa ikimasu" (I am going)

These Profs. that spend time trying to show how similar or connected Okinawan and Japanese are would be better off looking at Korean and Japanese. Now those two countries have a lot in common linguistically!

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Just as an extra thought on all this Funakoshi stuff.

I do recall Funakoshi mentioning in his book Karate Do My Way of Life a certain passage of how he thought mixing Karate with another art like Jujutsu was not good. I wonder if Funakoshi said this was because karate already contains a grappling art (tuite) or was Funakoshi miffed at Ohtsuka for some reason.....
Ryushikan,

Thank you for the info on his 5th Dan ranking. I was not aware of that. I just knew of his Renshi status.
I remember reading the same passage in Karate-do Kyohan. I also got the feeling he was referring to Ohtsuka or Konishi.

:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by kenmpoka


Ryushikan,

Thank you for the info on his 5th Dan ranking. I was not aware of that. I just knew of his Renshi status.
I remember reading the same passage in Karate-do Kyohan. I also got the feeling he was referring to Ohtsuka or Konishi.

:asian:


It seems Konishi or Kuniyoshi a student of Funakoshi was a ranked member of the Butokukai in Kendo and was instrumental in Funakoshi getting his grading from them.
For any of you that have never heard of the Butokukai it was the martial arts organization that was "sanctioned" by the Emperor of pre-war Japan. It was disbanded by the GHQ after the war because of it's ultra right political views. It has since re-opened it's doors but has never gained the credibility or prestige it might have once had. It is now basically a good ol' boy club occupied by ultra right "die hards" and a few disillusioned gaijin that think it will get them more than a free cup of coffee.

There are several organizations that are similar to the Butokukai. One of them is the Kokusai Budoin (International Martial Arts Federation) which has to be one of the biggest "dan factories" in Japan.

[Jeff Cook]

Here is an interesting link. I do not know if this is an accurate history of Ohtsuka Sensei and his relationship to Funakoshi Sensei, but it makes for some interesting reading....

http://www.z-teamkarate.com/grand_master_hironori_otsuka_i.htm

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[RyuShiKan]

Jeff,

Good to see you over here.

A bit off course but this is funny ....................to me anyway.........

From the above link:

After Grand Master Otsuka’s mother died, he quit the bank and he had retirement money of 1000 yen, which had a value to executives as one year of income.


1,000 yen today would get you a beer and that's it. ................times have changed.
(1,000 is about US$ 9. Now, basically you can survive unless you are making about 500,000 yen a month in Japan )

[Jeff Cook]

Robert, good to find you here! As ornery as you are, I figured you would appreciate the company of a friend who understands where you are coming from. ;)

As you and I have discussed before, everybody puts their own spin on "history." I don't imagine that the information in the link I provided is very different, but I found it compelling to find this remark at the beginning of the article: "The official history of Wado-Ryu translated by Kazutaka Otsuka in an
interview with Grand Master Hironori Otsuka II," and another comment at the end of the article alluding to copyright of the Otsuka family.

I do wonder about the claim "He succeeded the 4th generation of Shinto Yoshin Ryu" is truly accurate. As the current headmasters of the various shinto yoshin branches point out, having menkyo kaiden is NOT the same as "taking over" a ryu, and they all dispute this little Otsuka-version of history.


Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Jeff Cook

Robert, good to find you here! As ornery as you are, I figured you would appreciate the company of a friend who understands where you are coming from. ;)

You know me too well! ;)


Originally posted by Jeff Cook

As you and I have discussed before, everybody puts their own spin on "history." I don't imagine that the information in the link I provided is very different, but I found it compelling to find this remark at the beginning of the article: "The official history of Wado-Ryu translated by Kazutaka Otsuka in an
interview with Grand Master Hironori Otsuka II," and another comment at the end of the article alluding to copyright of the Otsuka family.


This is true, and I think folks that write their own "history" have also done what most people do on their Resumes........they sometimes expand the truth a bit if you know what I mean. Case in point below.



Originally posted by Jeff Cook

I do wonder about the claim "He succeeded the 4th generation of Shinto Yoshin Ryu" is truly accurate. As the current headmasters of the various shinto yoshin branches point out, having menkyo kaiden is NOT the same as "taking over" a ryu, and they all dispute this little Otsuka-version of history.


Maybe this is good for getting more students..................:confused:

[Mike Clarke]

If you talk to older Okinawans, as I have often done, they refer to Japanese people in the same way they refer to any other non-Okinawan, as outsiders.
I have a t.v. interview of my late sensei, Eiichi Miyazato sensei and he is speaking in his native Hogen for much of it. Japanese I know can't translate for me what he's saying.
Anyone who has been to both Japan and Okinawa will understand that the two places are VERY different. not only the language, but the achitecture, costume, music, art, customs etc etc.
Maybe the younger Okinwans think of themselves as Japanese?
But the older generations still feel like Ryukyujin.
I also know having trained in Japanese karatedo (Shito-ryu) for ten years before going to Okinawa to begin training in Goju-ryu, that the difference in their karate is also quite marked.
I have some footage of Funakoshi sensei doing kata and he looks nothing like the typical shotokan karate-ka we see today. If anything his kata look more like shoto-kai.

Mike

[RyuShiKan]

Mike,

I was sitting in a an Okinawan restaurant in Kawasaki City one day and one of the customers looked over at me and said "you and me same in Japan.".
Not having any idea what he was talking about I asked him exactly what he meant by that.
He said "you and me same in Japan, Japanese treat us both like sxxt.". He went on to tell me how Okinawans are openly discriminated against in Japan. Kinda reminded me of the stories of how blacks were treated in "The Deep South".
They used to be a different country, hence the totally different language. Many Japanese and some Okinawan people use the word Okinawa Ben or Hogen but it is not correct. Ben or Hogen indicate that they come from the same root language but in this case Okinawan doesn't come from Japanese at all. I think they have started calling it a "ben" or hogen to eliminate some of the prejudice.
Okinawan is actually closer to Chinese than Japanese..........and not only linguistically but socially, culturally, spiritually etc..

I too have seen the 8mm Funakoshi tape now on video.........pretty shocking stuff............the boys at the JKA honbu and several other Shotokanesque dojos don't do it like that. Makes you wonder.

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I do wonder about the claim "He succeeded the 4th generation of Shinto Yoshin Ryu" is truly accurate. As the current headmasters of the various shinto yoshin branches point out, having menkyo kaiden is NOT the same as "taking over" a ryu, and they all dispute this little Otsuka-version of history.


succeeding the 4th generation of Shindo Yoshin-ryu does not always means that he took over as the 4th soke. It could also means that Otsuka sensei is the 4th Denjin (that's it, 4th generation person to whom the ryuha are being transmitted). It is acceptable for a menkyo holder to create his/her own branch (rather than taking over the Ryuha from the sons of the Soke ;) ).

BTW, In the menkyo that Otsuka sensei gave to Sakura Kazuo sensei, it says Nihon-den Shinto Yoshin-ryu Kenpo. Not Shinto Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu, and especially not Hontai (mainline) Shinto Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu. I think Otsuka sensei started his own branch of SYR, and later created Wado-ryu, incorporating his branch of SYR into Wado-ryu.

Anyway, don't kick me ;) I'm just a kyu rank student :D