I have several female students. One, who grew up with a big brother who mercilessly pounded her. She is savage and mean (I mean that in a totally complimentary manner) and I have NO fear that if a situation arose, she would come out on top.
My other female students, however, are varying degrees of timid, and I worry about them. I would feel awful if I failed to prepare them for a violent attack and something bad happened. The problem is not with technical execution...the problem lies in willingness to hurt people.
Does anyone have any ideas about methods I could utilize to instill a more fightin' spirit?
Thank you.:asian:

well, sit them down and explain what happens to you if you do a half-@$$ job of defending yourself in the street.

have their opponent pad up, chest protector, head gear, and all, explain to them that they're not gonna hurt someone by training a little harder, and have at.

I, like your student, grew up with an older brother and his friends that loved to wrestle with me and pin me and all kinds of nice fun stuff. But when I started MA I really didn't want to hurt anyone in class either. However, with time I've learned which people are those that I can "pound" on a harder than others. But if I execute a technique and actually hit the person, did that tonight actually, I feel absolutely horrible especially if they aren't expecting it or if it's in the face. When it comes to grappling or on the ground work, I have no problem there, I just sqirm out of it. Let those timid girls know that it is okay to be a little more aggressive, in and out of class. It helps to know who you can actually kick and hit harder too. Like you don't want them going off on your lower belts, but as for your advanced belts they should be able to handle the force and impact better. Hope this helps. Good luck. :asian:

I grew up with an older brother who used to attack me outta nowhere for no reason.. Man I wish I still spoke to him, I'd show him a thing or 2 now hahaa..

We have some male students that love to 'pick' on the girls just to get them going and riled up to fight back.. They are all peers & friends and it's great fun to see. One of our meeker students who we all couldn't wait to 'come out of her shell' has done just that.. after a few months of antagonism she gives right back during sparring, grappling and it's wonderful. She's very small boned and not much muscle on her if any..and last night she was grappling for an hour with a 2nd Brown belt, and having our guest BB in Kungfu giving her pointers. a month ago I doubt we would of ever seen such a thing happen.
I can't say it would work for all females who are timid and afraid to hit... but in this instance a bit of well intended and trustful riling up.. worked ;)

Tess

I would say that if she is not complaining about people hitting her to hard or being afraid of hurting someone herslef she will come around in time.
Perhaps haveing a few of the more aggresive people fight/spar befor she has her turn will help then haveing her mix it up with one of them when he/she is really on a roll. Let her know that she's going to have to defend herslef or get hit HARD.
I dont kow if you let the students encourage or cheer for another student when they are sparing but it might help in her case. (This may cause a break down in class disiplain however)
Just some thoughts
Shadow

I was timid and affraid to get hit when I started MA. I didn't even spar for the longest time. Now, I still hate sparring, but I'm definitely more aggressive. I go after who I spar, even if I'm getting a beating. I go easy on the beginners. I use them to practice more combos and stuff. I go hard on seniors (they should be able to handle it). I just throw anything and hard at them. I don't care if I get my butt kicked by a black belt. I still give them all I got to get to say that I "tried" and tried hard. One guy even teases me, and makes me hit him, which is good in my opinion. I don't mind getting "thumped" either. It's teaching me to "take a hit", and to fight back.

I was not comfortable striking others when I first started in martial arts.

A number of things helped me:
1. A black belt asked me how aggressive I would be if someone was attacking my child - no question - I'd be all over that person. Then he asked me to think about what would happen to my child if something happened to me - that helped me to start thinking more aggressively.

2. Another black belt when we were going through techniques with him attacking had me think of him as my attacker from the moment we bowed in until we bowed out - before and after he was my friend.

3. Other black belts sparred with me.

4. Experience has helped and gaining an absolute certainty that I have every right to defend myself and that that is most important.

5. With my female students, I have them work on handheld bags and I don't allow them to say "I'm sorry" if they accidentally hit me instead. That's a habit I think is important to break.

6. Be patient and just keep working with them and ask for their suggestions.

The only thing I have not wanted to do is to get angry and then get aggressive. I want my aggressiveness to come out of control and calmness.

Oss
Judy aka warrior.mama

Hmmm...I'm still trying, but I can't break through. I'll keep everybody updated.

As an aside, warriormama, are you a kyokushin stylist? I noticed the "Oss!"
:asian:

What I do may not be recommended for all instructors...
I stand there with my body wide open and walk toward them. I give them a hard time and cajole them and some times yell at them to hit me. If they do not hit me hard enough, they simply bounce off until I walk up on top of them and swipe them in the head gear. I tell tehm this will continue until they hit/kick hard enough to either force me to stop/block/ or change direction. It does work and they start to open up a good bit when they relaize that they are not going to accomplish anything by playing patty cakes with me.

I study kenpo - Chinese style - and am just beginning to learn American kenpo.

Oss

Seig

Have you had good success with your way of getting women to strike harder? I think it sounds excellent - especially as a great lesson in how an attacker will keep coming at you.

Thank you for sharing

Oss
Judy aka warrior.mama

Actually, I have had some success with trying to cajole my students into hitting me...it works for some but not for all. I'm planning to work Seig's idea into my strategy. Strangely, I've had the most success with my kickboxing students (females), but I suppose that is to be expected, as the entire lesson is structured more towards ring-based competition and not bloody gory street self-defense.
It's easier, I've found, to teach a woman to punch me hard in the head with a 16 ounce pillow on her hand than to convince a woman that she has a definite need to be psychologically able to tickle an adversary's brains via his eye sockets...and it is my Kenpo/self-defense students that I most want to be able to hit hard and fight well. It seems that the closer we get to the reality of street combat, the more squeamish the women become.
The mission continues. Thank you for the suggestions and please, keep 'em coming! :asian:

Funny I should read this tonight as I just finished giving a small speech to my class about this very subject. I have a couple of new female students that joined the class recently and tonight I heard them comment on one of the senior belt women in my class about how "scary" she was while watching her spar the men. Basically she was going after the men senior belts pretty relentlessly. I couldn't help but laugh out loud as this woman that appears "scary" now was the most fragile and timid student I've ever had, often breaking down into tears at least several times a month in class..... 4 years ago. What these new students perceive as "scary" I see as the culmination of 4 years of hard work personal development.

Martial artists, especially women, should have a switch. Turn the switch on and you become a viscious fighting machine, turn it off at will and you are back to your happy nice self. This to me is important for realistic self defense.

I'm sure there are many methods to speed this development up but honestly I have faith in the martial arts (with a semi decent instructor) training to accomplish this over time by getting experience. I worry about what if a female student gets attacked while still learning to control her "switch" and can't effectively defend herself but I honestly feel that if you push a person to hard to learn something before they are ready you will lose them as a student.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

That idea of the switch is a good one. Switch goes on, you're Evil Betty from Kung Pow. Switch goes off, you're you.
Switch on, Wong Fei Hung. Switch off, Betty Crocker.
Switch on, Bruce Lee. Switch off...
I think I get it. I think I will lecture about it tonight for group class, as the idea might help more aggressive, savage types as well as less aggressive timid types.
:asian:

Originally posted by warrior.mama

Seig

Have you had good success with your way of getting women to strike harder? I think it sounds excellent - especially as a great lesson in how an attacker will keep coming at you.

Thank you for sharing

Oss
Judy aka warrior.mama
Judy,
As a matter of fact. Yes, I have had very good success with this tactic. It serves a couple of purposes, one it makes them realize just how hard they do have to hit and that they are not going to "accidently" hurt someone.

I've done similar things as Seig's. I have them hit a pad a few times and <bam> they get to hitting it hard. I then put on head gear and have them hit me. At first it starts very soft. I *make* them increase the force of their attacks by telling them to hit harder and, in general, kind of make them mad at me. When they see that they aren't hurting me, they tend to hit harder.

It's extremely important to go slow with people who are afraid to make contact. Women especially are grown up with the idea of nurturing and avoiding conflicts. This is a totally new arena for them. If you push too far, they'll have a breakdown and may just up and quit. Of course the intensity level varies by the student.

I love the idea of the switch and I'll start using it. When the head gear goes on, and it comes down to fighting, you become an animal that hits. When it's off you can go back to being shy. No repurcusions and in general no appologies because it wasn't you in there.

WhiteBirch

I too grew up with a bully for an older brother. Especially since he is almost 10 years older than I am. Needless to say a took many a whooping growning up.

I know that not everyone has someone like that at home and it makes it a little harder to show them how to be more aggressive. What you need to let them know is that when it comes to a situation where its them or the other guy, that they're the ones who are going to protecting themselves and no one else. Unfortunately, to many people have cried wolf over the years, and there aren't that many do-gooders out there to help in those types of situations. Women these days really need to pay attention to their surroundings and be alert for anything, because you never know what might be waiting for you around the next corner.

If nothing else works, try and make them mad while working with someone and see what they're reaction is. Or put them to work with a guy whose much bigger than they are so that it becomes more difficult and they have to work harder.

Its really hard to get some people to come out of their passive shell. The one ingredient that can't be added is heart and determination. It has to be there already. They have to be able to stick it out. If they keep coming to class, I think a steady diet of sparring with increasing intensity can crack the shell. Most aggressive people have stated that they had brothers or siblings beat on them. This was just like extended exposure to sparring, except they couldn't decide not to participate in a home environment as a child. They were forced to endure. Now they have to choose to endure. I have seen some sweet young ladies turn into monsters over time. More power to them (and most of the ladies on this forum), they (and you) are breaking down a destructive stereotype.

My instructor has this activity that sometimes help students be more aggressive.

What he does is set up a small waverunner or kicking bag at one end of the room. He has six people, black and brown belts, wearing chest guards, groin guards, head gear, and/or holding kicking blocks.

The goal is to have one student at a time holding a grassblade run through and put the grassblade on top of the waverunner.

The six people don't do any strikes or attacks. Their purpose is to only block and prevent the student from getting through.

The student is allowed to use any strikes (including elbows), kicks, pushes, and sweeps against the six blockers. The students don't need to wear any gear since the blockers do not do any strikes or attacks on them.

To start, it can feel rather intimidating to look across the room and see six people geared up, surrounding the waverunner, and knowing you'll have to fight through to reach the goal.

I have seen some students during this process, become frustrated enough that they actually start kicking and punching hard and finally reaching the goal.

Its really cool to see their triumphant expressions once they made it.

This sometimes translates in having students build more confidence in being able to make hits.

- Ceicei

I've read a lot of responses about, "Do such and such to make your students hit harder". I'm at a loss with this though.

Let's take a student, frustrate and make them upset so that they put more muscle behind the blow and hit harder?

Hitting hard has more to do with technique...and leaving things out that inhibit the ability to "hit hard"...(negative emotions, tension, etc being some of them)

Any thoughts? These ideas have really got me stuck here.

As already stated in previous posts, some people have a natural aggression. For others that aggression needs to be brought out. Some people will almost refuse to fight back even in a situation where their life may be in danger. So these people need some sense of urgency or danger put in to a manageable situation to see what their reaction might be.

If someone is taking ma's for fitness, fine, do what you will. But if you're taking ma's to learn how to defend yourself and your backing down in a friendly learning environment, what's going to happen to you out in the real world. Sooner or later we all need to face up to reality. Sometimes adding some type of emotional content or feeling the the situation is helpful to certain students. Granted not everyone is going to react the same way to these types of training situations. But you'll never how to get your students in to gear if you don't know what buttons to push when a situation get tough.

Bringing emotion into the training is necessary...of course. This needs to be a gradual process. Taking someone who is meek and afraid and throwing negative energy and taunts at them, if working at all, will take longer. It's a greater hurdle for the student to climb over.

Gradual progression and amping up as the student gets to a more solid and secure place works great.

Anyway...back to my original questions. How can causing a student to react in a negative way with a threat teach them to be able to handle threats in a productive way? How can allowing their negative (tension, raised emotions, etc) reaction increase effective means of striking?

Pissing an opponent off in a street fight is a wonderful tool to be used against them. So how is it a effective means within training?

try to give them some kind of internal motivation.... if they won't act to protect themselves, perhaps the thought of "if he gets past you, he's going to get to your kids..."

Internal motivation...I fully agree. However, using the example you just gave...how will inducing panic help? If the student isn't prepared in their progression of training at that point for that type of emotional stimulus, panic can be caused...how good at protecting their pups is she going to be paniced and on edge?

I don't think there's any cut and dry answer.. Nobody really knows how they are going to react unless put into a volatile situation. Fight or flight will take over and if trained so those techniques are embedded in the muscle memory recall, all we can do is hope we react intuitively and that inner voice feeds us the information we need to survive.
Some men are meek, some women are meek. it's a law of humanity. In a Training scenario, I think it's important to get to know students personalities from outside the studio. For Example, I have one student (male) who's very antagonistic, blocks like a mack truck, very stiff and very *controlling (not using control) in his mannerism and fighting technique. He gets very frustrated and (Yellow belt) wants to be beaten down. Now I opened a conversation with him the other day. I asked him if he ever got into a physical altercation before. He denied such and said he was the kind that would verbally spar his way out of it. I replied.. so from what I am seeing and learning of you.. I think you are afraid to let go.. because you wouldn't know how to stop. Am I correct? He just looked at me ,, his jaw hitting the floor and nodded , unable to speak. As I hit the nail on the head..
He controlled everything in his life, by being a smart ass or having an answer for everything verbally becoming anal in every aspect.. His fear is 'letting go' .. so now we know what it is.. we can work on it..

This is relevant to the fact that we need to find out about our students, What makes them tick, We are after all, responsiblly teaching them an art that they may use some day and it will have whomever taught them, their name affiliated ..
So don't be afraid to ask questions, use your intuition and dig a bit deeper into the abyss of the whys.

:asian:

It may be true that women are less willing to hurt others, but even in the martial arts, why is that negative? I've trained with children as well as adults, I can't imagine hitting someone half my age and half my size with all my strength and then saying "Whoops! I just wanted to keep it real!" I am pretty sure that if I did that, I would find a subpoena in my mailbox to appear in court for child abuse the next day. I'm not joking, some of this just gets absurd. People have to ask themselves what their goals are. Some people need full combat and want to learn self defense, some people just want to pursue a hobby.... I've often had bruises on my arms just from normal sparring and not full contact. I don't mind a few bruises, but I don't pursue martial arts as my vocation and if I had a broken arm every other week, it really wouldn't be an option for me. I do need my arm for other things. Why do you think women need to be brutal just to train?
But something that I saw in another thread and couldn't find later was the interesting question about how far should the teachers go in training women in self-defense. There were some embarassing examples of men getting tangled up in various parts of the female bodies while lying on the floor et cetera. I think on the one hand, most of the self-defense I've learnt has been kind of inadequate but on the other hand, I may not want to go through the motions of a real-life scenario during every practice. But you know, think about what your goal is. How real should it be and how often? Like, if your goal really truly is to show a woman how to get out of a rape situation, then just do not pussyfoot around it and suggest what could happen. I would like to try it out, let some really big guy get me on the floor and see if I could defend myself. I'm not saying that to be funny, that is what rape is, it's going to be really hard to be polite about it or politically correct about it no matter how you approach it, so if you really want to know if you can defend yourself, then make the demo as lifelike as possible. That said, if you want it to be as lifelike as possible, then the teacher may get very hurt as well and he doesn't want that to happen to him every night either. Because I thought that was the whole point, we were supposed to see that women are being too meek and not hurtful enough. So give them a chance with a lifelike demo when it counts, but I wouldn't think you would want to do that for every single class because a lot of your teachers are going to be walking around in a lot of pain if you do!
Seriously, I would feel bad if I injured someone, but there is a place for sparring and practice and then maybe there is a place for some realistic technique too.

I understand Jay Bell's POV, probably because I too am a Systema practitioner. An effective fighter is cool and unflustered, not riled up and emotional. Letting someone manipulate your emotions or make you so ticked off you lose your temper and become aggressive is not necessarily the mental state best suited for defending your life. You have to know how to keep your cool in dangerous situations, otherwise, panic might kick in. As you may have picked up, I am not a proponent of adrenaline-based training. Pressure testing is fine when the students are ready for it, but stimulating the adrenaline and bringing out the aggression in timid students seems like a counterproductive way to train, IMHO.

I've seen many a fine practitioner seriously kick ass while completely relaxed and smiling. You do not have to be aggressive to be an effective fighter. However, being too passive can be a problem, I agree, and perhaps women are more prone to it. As far as what can help women overcome this passivity, I think it's just a matter of practice. Women who do not demonstrate effective self-defense moves because they are too passive or half-hearted or unwilling to make contact should be told bluntly that their moves will not work. If a woman isn't hitting hard enough, the instructor should make it clear to her that she must hit harder. In other words, treat passivity just the same way you'd treat too much aggression, uncommitted attacks, speeding up against a slow attack, or any other bad training habits. Demonstrate the correct way to do it, ask the female student to emulate your demonstration, and make sure that she knows when she's being too passive. That would probably work a lot better than yelling at them, making them mad, telling them that their passivity will endanger their kids, or any kind of scare tactics.

Just my $0.02.
-Rachel

I suppose it will depend upon the temperament of female students. Some will respond to explanations and try harder. Some just need more time and experience before feeling comfortable enough to respond. Others may not respond aggressively at all, even when given reasons to do so. Some cannot until they learn to bring out emotions. With that latter group, for some, once emotions are brought out, then they can learn to control how much is enough. It takes time for the instructor to get to know each of the students and see what may work. It is also important for the student to let the instructor know what she can or cannot handle (physically, mentally, or emotionally). In all situations, the instructor should make clear what he intends to do and ask for feedback before beginning these types of scenarios.

Care must be taken, however, because not all females will divulge their background/experience what brought them to start training. Pushed too far may bring more harm if this brings up for the students flashbacks of their bad memories.

There is really no one right method that will work on all of them. The training to how to hit harder may need to be customized to bring out the best potential from the students.

- Ceicei

I agree that many women and girls who come to our classes tend to be timid and also apologetic when they do a technique well and effectively. You know, part of that is societal conditioning. We are raised to be "nice". It is very hard sometimes to convey the understanding that a woman, martial artist or not, does not have to stop being "nice" in order to be a good fighter or to feel O.K. about practicing, punching, kicking like this is a real life situation. At the same time, the majority of men would never dream of hitting a girl/woman. I have seen the guys in our school apolgize with even the lightest of contact because they are good men. So, what happens a great deal of the time, at least in our school, is men partner with men and women with women.

I have always recommended that everyone in the school never work with the same person all the time. If you have to switch up partners this increases tension and anxiety to a small degree and in a controlled environment will simulate the same emotions one would feel in a real life situation. One of the most important aspects of self-defense is mental preparation.

A women needs to realize that the type of person who will attack her is not going to have a second thought about hurting her. That that person already sees her as an easy target and a victim and being "nice" will not help. I also want to say that the guys also need to realize that their attacker just might be a woman.

I agree that many women and girls who come to our classes tend to be timid and also apologetic when they do a technique well and effectively. You know, part of that is societal conditioning. We are raised to be "nice". It is very hard sometimes to convey the understanding that a woman, martial artist or not, does not have to stop being "nice" in order to be a good fighter or to feel O.K. about practicing, punching, kicking like this is a real life situation. At the same time, the majority of men would never dream of hitting a girl/woman. I have seen the guys in our school apolgize with even the lightest of contact because they are good men. So, what happens a great deal of the time, at least in our school, is men partner with men and women with women.

I have always recommended that everyone in the school never work with the same person all the time. If you have to switch up partners this increases tension and anxiety to a small degree and in a controlled environment will simulate the same emotions one would feel in a real life situation. One of the most important aspects of self-defense is mental preparation.

A women needs to realize that the type of person who will attack her is not going to have a second thought about hurting her. That that person already sees her as an easy target and a victim and being "nice" will not help. I also want to say that the guys also need to realize that their attacker just might be a woman.

All very good points - thanks for adding to the discussion! I agree with Kantini's post, and it matches much of what I already do - or at least try to do.

I know for me, I was born in this world mean as snake! I think asking them what makes them angry and channel that into sparring.

My teacher sent me through what I call the "gauntlet". He made me spar against the each of the guys. He told the guys to tag me so I could feel it and he told them to throw harder and harder. At first the guys didn't want to do it. But he told them that if they didn't throw hard, then I'd never really know what getting hit really looks like. Usually my teacher would rotate us through in the sparring, but he left me in there til I figured out how to fight back. I must have went through 5-6 guys before I actually really fought back as opposed to just defending myself.

-Gura Michelle Bautista

I have several female students. One, who grew up with a big brother who mercilessly pounded her. She is savage and mean (I mean that in a totally complimentary manner) and I have NO fear that if a situation arose, she would come out on top.
My other female students, however, are varying degrees of timid, and I worry about them. I would feel awful if I failed to prepare them for a violent attack and something bad happened. The problem is not with technical execution...the problem lies in willingness to hurt people.
Does anyone have any ideas about methods I could utilize to instill a more fightin' spirit?
Thank you.:asian:

For me it was finding my warrior spirit. So many times we as women have our warrior spirit tampered down, crushed, or never awaken.
For some it is growing up with brothers, other it is dealing with bad situations, for others it is just knowing you can open up a can of whoop butt anytime you want to (that is me)

In time the ladies in your class will find wake up their warrior spirit. Just wait and see.