As uke have you ever been accused...

[SFC JeffJ]

Of trying to make tori look bad?

This happened to me yesterday. The guy I was working with, whom I've been friends with for years, said I was trying to make him look bad in front of our instructor. He wasn't applying the technique right, so I wasn't going down.

The more I think about this, the more it pisses me off. It's insulting to not only me, but to our instructor as well. I know that if anyone tried to make another student look bad in class he would pick up on it really quick.

Also, as it's a learning environment and not a competition, I don't understand the reasoning behind wanting to make someone look bad or thinking that someone would do that.

Any thoughts on this? Any ideas on how I should handle this situation?

Thanks,

Jeff

[Brian R. VanCise]

Of trying to make tori look bad?

This happened to me yesterday. The guy I was working with, whom I've been friends with for years, said I was trying to make him look bad in front of our instuctor. He wasn't applying the technique right, so I wasn't going down.

The more I think about this, the more it pisses me off. It's insulting to not only me, but to our instructor as well. I know that if anyone tried to make another student look bad in class he would pick up on it really quick.

Also, as it's a learning environmen and not a competition, I don't understand the reasoning behind wanting to make someone look bad or thinking that someone would do that.

Any thoughts on this? Any ideas on how I should handle this situation?

Thanks,

Jeff

Hey Jeff,

Just let it slide but if he brings it up say that no you were not trying to make him look bad but that his technique was not right. The question is should you do the technique for him? I would say a definate "no" to that.

[Fu_Bag]

Jeff,

Sorry to hear about that. It sounds like a case of the dreaded "dojo syndrome" rearing its ugly head. Is this at the new school you're at? Since this guy is your friend, I'll suggest something that is definitely a double-edged sword. Nobody likes the "teacher uke" but, since it's your friend, you could help him to kick your butt by telling him where his technique is applying the most force at the moment.

From there, you guys could still work together as friends and you'll both look good infront of the instructor. You might be helping him to learn the technique correctly for the first time. Also, you'll get the benefit of understanding the dynamics of the technique a little better when it's your turn to be tori. That's the benefit of non-competition in the dojo and why, I suspect, that some dojos are more friendly and fun than others. It's all about the warrior friend idea...... :)

Hope this helps.


Fu Bag :D

[Paul B]

Also, as it's a learning environment and not a competition

Hi Jeff,

That's the crux of the matter right there. I think the friend has not really internalized this concept. People take it personally and don't realize that you're actually trying to help them.

Now I'm assuming that neither of you are white belt beginners so the actions of not "tanking" are justified. Sometimes it's OK to tank when first learning the technique..but after you learn it,there's no excuse. :)

Unfortunately, this kind of attitude is all too common in throwing and locking arts like JJ and HKD. The only thing I can say is it's too bad that people like that miss out on so many opportunities to better their technique...simply by being too caught up in their "I wanna" technique and attitude.

I would very quietly and discreetly suggest an basic "How to take and receive technique" review from your Sensei..or make him Uke more often.:uhyeah:

[Jonathan Randall]

A couple of things to consider:

First, and you're not going to like this one, is it possible that it didn't work because YOU WERE EXPECTING IT? That's always possible. If you know something's coming, you can counter damn near everything. Also, some techniques of the martial arts ONLY work if they have the element of surprise. This idea that everything should work against a "resisting opponent" is bogus in that context.

Second, is it possible that "your friend" wishes you to carry him and make him look good even when his technique is unworkable?

It's hard to tell on the Internet which of the two (or both to some extent, perhaps) are valid. Don't make a judgement on your friend based on ONLY one incident, though. Two, three or four? Yes.

Take a 24 or 48 hour cool down period, then COMMUNICATE with your friend. Make sure he knows YOUR INTENT was not to make him look bad and any appearance of such was inadvertent on your part, then get to your personal view. First listen to his, though.

[SFC JeffJ]

Jeff,

Sorry to hear about that. It sounds like a case of the dreaded "dojo syndrome" rearing its ugly head. Is this at the new school you're at? Since this guy is your friend, I'll suggest something that is definitely a double-edged sword. Nobody likes the "teacher uke" but, since it's your friend, you could help him to kick your butt by telling him where his technique is applying the most force at the moment.

From there, you guys could still work together as friends and you'll both look good infront of the instructor. You might be helping him to learn the technique correctly for the first time. Also, you'll get the benefit of understanding the dynamics of the technique a little better when it's your turn to be tori. That's the benefit of non-competition in the dojo and why, I suspect, that some dojos are more friendly and fun than others. It's all about the warrior friend idea...... :)

Hope this helps.


Fu Bag :D
This is actually my Kenpo Jitsu class which I've decided to keep doing while I study BBT.

I did try to tell him what he was doing wrong. He didn't seem to want to be corrected, even though he didn't have me off-balance. Heck, I'm a shodan in that style, I should be correcting his technique.

Jeff

[Kacey]

People who practice together often fall into habits (I'm not saying you - I'm saying this may have happened with other people in the class) where, to save each other pain/discomfort, they will act as if a throw or strike was more effective than it was. When the partners split up and get new partners, the original pair may or may not remember that they had been taking pratfalls (effectively) to make practice easier. Sometimes, one person will go with a throw or strike more than the technique warrants, with or without the knowledge/approval of the other person.

These two situations can have exactly the effect you're talking about. It creates problems on several levels - people do not practice in effective fashion, they don't always realize that they are not practicing effectively (especially in the second scenario, where one person responds to incorrect technique as if it were correct), and when they pair up with someone who is not "going with the flow" (or throw) they don't understand why it's not working, or how to fix something that worked with a different partner. Unfortunately, the person who doesn't "go with the flow" is often the one who gets blamed by the frustrated person who doesn't understand why something that worked before no longer works.

The best thing I can suggest is to see if you can find a pair of people you and your friend can watch who are sacrificing throws - and see if your friend can see it. If not, then tell him you're going to gradually increase your resistance to help him learn to throw uncooperative partners - then start out with very little resistance (but only go for properly executed throws) and increase as appropriate. It's hard to go from no resistance to full resistance, whether it's your friend's fault or his other partner(s)' fault that he's been practicing this way. And Jonathan has a point - knowing which attack to expect makes it easier to resist, even if you're not conscious of things like shifting your weight. You don't want to go limp, but neither do you want to resist more than an unsuspecting but alert opponent would do.

[SFC JeffJ]

Great post Kacey!!

Unfortunately, I wasn't resisting. He just wasn't getting me off balance with this technique (a gyaku heneri takedown). Every other throw he was doing he was doing right and getting me on the ground no problem. This was kata practice and not randori, so if he did it right, I went down. But this one technique he just wasn't getting right. I wasn't anywhere near being off balance.

I'll be talking to him tonight about this during class.

Jeff

[DeLamar.J]

Of trying to make tori look bad?

This happened to me yesterday. The guy I was working with, whom I've been friends with for years, said I was trying to make him look bad in front of our instructor. He wasn't applying the technique right, so I wasn't going down.

The more I think about this, the more it pisses me off. It's insulting to not only me, but to our instructor as well. I know that if anyone tried to make another student look bad in class he would pick up on it really quick.

Also, as it's a learning environment and not a competition, I don't understand the reasoning behind wanting to make someone look bad or thinking that someone would do that.

Any thoughts on this? Any ideas on how I should handle this situation?

Thanks,

JeffThats a touchy situation. It might be best to not train with that person anymore. I could imagine that person hurting you during a demo to get back at you.

[Touch Of Death]

Sounds like the instructor should step up. Have you told him your problem in private?
Sean

[Bigshadow]

He wasn't applying the technique right, so I wasn't going down.

Any thoughts on this? Any ideas on how I should handle this situation?


Jeff,

I would talk to my friend in private and explain that I wasn't trying to make him look bad. Simply put, he was not doing the technique directly therefore it wasn't having the expected effect on me. I would also state, as a friend and a fellow practioner it would be cheating him of his training by dropping as expected no matter what he did. As a good uke, I am there to help him train as well as myself. It would be unfair of me to cheat him of his training when he is tori. Sure it happened in front of the intructor, but this isn't a game of face, it is training, and we are there to help each other, whether the instructor is looking or not. In fact, I am sure the instructor knows of his abilities whether or not he did the technique right or wrong at that moment.

[MA-Caver]

Hey Jeff,

Just let it slide but if he brings it up say that no you were not trying to make him look bad but that his technique was not right. The question is should you do the technique for him? I would say a definate "no" to that.
:uhyeah: ... what he said!

[SFC JeffJ]

I just got back from class a lil bit ago, and as soon as he showed up, he was effusive with apology, and asked me to help him with his technique. I corrected him on what he was doing wrong, and found something that really surprised me in it's simplicity. I mean the kind of thing he'd been doing for years and our instructors or I had never caught.


Thanks for all your advice,

Jeff

[tshadowchaser]

I have not been accused of such a thing but have worked with a couple of uke's that I know tried to make me look bad In fact one of them was overheard after class in a local pizza palor of bragging he made me look bad and tried to mess up what i did every time i worked with him. That situation was taken care of by "doing " the technique not demonstrating it the next time I "used" him.

What good dose it do anyone to try to make the tori look bad excpt to bost ones own ego

[Danjo]

I've been accused of it before.Of course, I actually was trying to make the tory look bad:) Ususally i only do this if the person doing the technique is doing it half assed in the first place.

[zDom]

In fact, I am sure the instructor knows of his abilities whether or not he did the technique right or wrong at that moment.

The other day our instructor was watching during training, I was uke for the moment. He said to my partner, you aren't doing correctly --- I bet Scott was just tapping out to be nice.

I confirmed, a bit embarressed: He was right -- I was tired and not being good partner, just tapping when he completed a motion instead of waiting till pain actually began.

Cheating partner out of good technique if you are not giving him accurate feedback.

It's embarressing to have technique not work (especially in front of instructor :) )-- but much worse to not be corrected and have faith in technique that's not working.

[Ybot]

In the heat of the moment in frustration people will blame others for what's going wrong. Happens all the time. A lot of times it's a combination of life events outside of the situation in which the outburst occurs.

What doesn't happen all the time, though, is that the person steps back later and realizes that they were wrong, and even more rarely will they appologize. I have to give your friend credit for that.

It's hard to remember sometimes that even your best techniques can be improved, and your at your school to learn, not to show off what you know. If you knew it all why bother training?

[searcher]

If you are not resisting and being "helpful" then you are doing what needs to be done. It is one thing to be intent on hurting somebody while training, but to not resist is possibly even worse. If every uke just falls down then the tori will get tore up in a "real" altercation.

[matt.m]

About 100 years ago in 1987 haha, the same guy that said Scott was just being nice asked me why I kept falling for my partner considering he was not pulling for off balance well. It is all about the teachers humor sometimes.

[MJS]

Of trying to make tori look bad?

This happened to me yesterday. The guy I was working with, whom I've been friends with for years, said I was trying to make him look bad in front of our instructor. He wasn't applying the technique right, so I wasn't going down.

The more I think about this, the more it pisses me off. It's insulting to not only me, but to our instructor as well. I know that if anyone tried to make another student look bad in class he would pick up on it really quick.

Also, as it's a learning environment and not a competition, I don't understand the reasoning behind wanting to make someone look bad or thinking that someone would do that.

Any thoughts on this? Any ideas on how I should handle this situation?

Thanks,

Jeff

This can be looked at two different ways:

1) He was upset because he was doing the technique incorrectly and you were not going with it, therefore, making him look good.

2) You knew what he was doing, and made attempts to counter, so to speak.

In any case, I'll give my thoughts. I don't feel that we should just go with what our partner is doing. Now, if he was doing a takedown, IMO, I feel that he should take us down, without us having to fall for him. This is the idea of doing something slow in the beginning, to work out the rough spots. Now, once the move is understood, even if we give resistance, know what hes doing, etc., the goal should be able to adapt to any changes, and continue from there.

In any case, I wouldn't let it get to you. You may consider speaking with him on the side. If I was to wage a guess, I'd bet that its because he wasn't performing the tech. correctly.

Mike

[Drac]

Never..Was the Uke for a Dan-Bong ( short stick) Demo.. The instructor and I talked ahead of time about what to expect..He showed me two short sticks, one made of rubber and the regular wooden one..He held out the rubber one and said "You can make me look good"..Then he held out the wooden one "or I can make me look good"..I made him look GREAT...

[Grenadier]

Depends on the situation.

If it's at a demonstration, I'll only work with partners whom I've had significant one on one practice. I realize that anyone can make a mistake, and I'm not there to sabotage the demonstration, so I'll go along with the idea that "the show must go on." I won't like it, but it is your duty to be a salesman for your system at a demonstration.

To put it bluntly, a car salesman isn't going to tell you about all the defect tendencies of the line of products that he sells, or else he's going to be out of a job soon.


If it's in class, I'm expected to offer some resistance. If the techniques are performed correctly, where the Tori has good leverage and placement, then that resistance isn't going to interfere at all. My partners are actually quite grateful, since they know that they are using correct technique, and if they aren't applying things correctly, they would certainly want to know. I expect the same thing from them as well. If I do not have the correct technique applied, then I certainly want to know.

This does, however, mean that the people that are my partners can't be too thin-skinned. Normally this isn't a problem, else they wouldn't have been practicing such techniques at this level, but once in a long, long while, someone who might have too much pride in himself, might think that I'm "no-selling" his techniques in order to make him look badly in class.

This is far from the truth, and I would expect him to do the same for me in a classroom setting. How else are we expected to learn if not through our own mistakes? Rather than dwell on such things, and mope around, we should accept this, make corrections, and become stronger as a result.

[Brandon Fisher]

Only once or twice but for the same reason.