Found this site with some animations of some basic Kenpo techniques if anyone is interested.


An Example

http://www.bakerfamily4.net/kenpo/Images/dsword.gif

The Main Site

http://www.bakerfamily4.net/kenpo/

I've seen this site. It has some good stuff on it. I give it a thumbs up.

Did you see anything wrong with the way he did Delayed Sword?:asian: http://www.bakerfamily4.net/kenpo/Images/dsword.gif

Well there the whole question about what is the "right way." :)

But I did notice that his right foot seemed to adjust before stepping away with the left, which seems a bit of a wasted motion, also he didn't check the opponents arm with his left as he went in with the right handsword.

But I just learned this tech, so what do I know. (I'm working out with an AK guy this winter....)

Salute,

Lamont

Is the one that pulls your fat out of the fire and works at that moment. Heh heh heh...

But there is always the "ideal environment" concept.

Is it that he didn't re-cock his kick before he, steped into the hand sword strike?? He landed right after the kick.

Do I get a prize? :D

Of course as the others said, a proper technique is whatever saves your tushy in any given situation.

Dot

Chambering your kick and rechambering after the kick is wasted motion and disengages your body from your action only to have to re-engage. The kick should occur from point of origin after the mechanics of the tech are learned and developed, as should the planting of the kick after execution.
Mace :asian:

Watch the hands and think about wasted motion and floating:eek:

Hey guys/gals, just curious, do you have any Kenpo techniques that you like to string together?

For example, I like to mix up scrapping hooves and squeezing the peach. After the first technique I like to launch into the heel kick and elbow and use the rebound from the elbow to start my cross out away.

I like Delayed Sword into Five Swords. Inserting the kick into five swords after the initial block.

Any ideas or comments?

Hey all,
I like the five swords with delayed sword and will also throw on a version of shielding hammer I picked up. Its alot like fatal deviation to give you an idea, after the 1st chop in FD but without the forward twist. A favorite blend of mine is hooking wings into bow of compulsion with the extention, it just rips. Also shield and sword up to the hammer fist into circling destruction is fun. Another one that rips.
Mace

I love starting with either delayed or thrusting and then going into triggered salute, five swords and then finishing the with crossing talon with the extension, ending with the compound wrist and elbow locks.

Another one I like is starting with mace of aggression, begging hands, snaking talon and again ending with crossing talon with extension, ending with the compound wrist and elbow locks

What can I say? Maximum devastation with minimum retaliation is my game

Originally posted by Big Guy

Did you see anything wrong with the way he did Delayed Sword?:asian: http://www.bakerfamily4.net/kenpo/Images/dsword.gif

His right arm doesn't remain in a checking position after the block... violating a couple fundamentals. Point of Origin, and Checking against intentional/unintentional reaction...

My two cents... all in all a pretty good site though.

Take Care,
Billy Lear (http://www.geocities.com/williamtlear) :asian:

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
I like Delayed Sword into Five Swords. Inserting the kick into five swords after the initial block.
Any ideas or comments?

I finally had the chance to try this full out the other day. Didn't work. The kick to the groin brought him down too far for the rest of 5 swords and then I had to knee him in the head Muay Thai style with my left knee.

Well...I didn't "have" to.

Originally posted by GouRonin



I finally had the chance to try this full out the other day. Didn't work. The kick to the groin brought him down too far for the rest of 5 swords and then I had to knee him in the head Muay Thai style with my left knee.

Well...I didn't "have" to.

Well, if you were working on me you might have gotten to do the rest of Five Swords.....:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You might get your chance at Big Guys this August...

Originally posted by WilliamTLear

His right arm doesn't remain in a checking position after the block

It looks like it does to me. Yet you're more qualified than I, so I
have to be missing something here. Can you go further into this
to help a newbie out?

Originally posted by KenpoGirl

Is it that he didn't re-cock his kick before he, steped into the hand sword strike?? He landed right after the kick.

I was never told to re-cock the kick, were you? This is interesting
to me, because a lot of people here keep saying that MOST of us
all do the base techs the same way. I was told that by not
re-cocking the kick, it helps with the application of marriage of
gravity and will make your handsword impact a lot harder.

Originally posted by Blindside

Well there the whole question about what is the "right way." :)

You'll get no argument from me there! Seems there's a ton of
people with a LOT of experience can't even agree on that! Which
validates my argument in the Kenpo differences - standardize or leave alone? thread.

Originally posted by Blindside

also he didn't check the opponents arm with his left as he went in with the right handsword.


Again, it looks like he does to me. His hand is checking low, to
protect from a hand or leg attack (although if someone can kick
after getting their gnads smooshed they're more man than I).
If I'm wrong, then can someone tell me what a check is? I was
assuming the hand up, allowing for deflection or blocking was
a check. But if a check is ONLY like that used in Deflecting
Hammer, where physical contact is required for it to be a true
check, then I need to re-evaluate ALL of my techs. :(

Originally posted by kenpo3631
Well, if you were working on me you might have gotten to do the rest of Five Swords.....
You might get your chance at Big Guys this August...

Cripes! I have to kick you in the nutz to bend you over just so I can talk to you.
:rolleyes:

quote: Originally posted by Blindside...also he didn't check the opponents arm with his left as he went in with the right handsword.


The problem is in the terminology. The left hand is used as a "cover" not a "check".

Checking implies you are making contact somewhere or inhibiting your opponent's actions somehow. You are not doing that with your left hand in Delayed Sword.

Your hand is in position in anticipation of an unintentional or intentional strike.

People tend sor some reason tend to forget the reaction of their opponent. "Ideally" (and that's what that video clip shows), your opponent should bend at the waist from being kicked in the groin. (Remember the rule? When working inside the centerline, cancel their height zone.)

So... "ideally", your left hand will not make contact with your opponent.
:asian:

Originally posted by kenpo3631



The problem is in the terminology. The left hand is used as a "cover" not a "check".

Checking implies you are making contact somewhere or inhibiting your opponent's actions somehow. You are not doing that with your left hand in Delayed Sword.

Your hand is in position in anticipation of an unintentional or intentional strike.

People tend sor some reason tend to forget the reaction of their opponent. "Ideally" (and that's what that video clip shows), your opponent should bend at the waist from being kicked in the groin. (Remember the rule? When working inside the centerline, cancel their height zone.)

So... "ideally", your left hand will not make contact with your opponent.
:asian:

Okay, so what the defender in the clip is doing, is COVERING,
and not CHECKING, correct? He does it the way I do it, btw,
which is why I'm so curious.

I would say yes....

:D

So what is a positional check?

"Check - To restrain, hinder, or repress an opponent from taking action. This is accomplished by pressing, pinning, or hugging an opponent usually at the joints so that it minimizes his leverage and nullifies his actions."

Note the terms pressing, pinning or hugging...

So by that definition the next definiton is contradicted... Note there is no reference to pressing, pinning, or hugging.

"Positioned Check - A check where you place the hand or leg in a defense position or angle to minimize entry to your vital areas. "

However, the hand position being discussed would better be described as -

"Positioned Block - The formation of various defensive postures that automatically check incoming action. The structured positions in and of themselves act as checks. "

or...

"Cover - The repositioning of your body into a protective pose while creating distance between you and your opponent. "

:asian:

Originally posted by Big Guy

Did you see anything wrong with the way he did Delayed Sword?:asian: http://www.bakerfamily4.net/kenpo/Images/dsword.gif



darn tootin- why's he beating on a little girl?:p

Okay,
How about a slap check? It doen't pin, hug, or press, its strikes.
Mace :asian:

Slap check is a relatively new term to the kenpo arena. I personally have only heard it here and at a few seminars in the recent years.

Isn't that a term Mr. Chapel uses...?:idunno:

I think Mr Cha'pel uses that term, but I do not and have not trained with or under him, so I can' t answer for sure. Anyone else have a definition for slapcheck or know where the term originates from?
Mace

Originally posted by WilliamTLear


His right arm doesn't remain in a checking position after the block

Originally posted by Kirk


It looks like it does to me. Yet you're more qualified than I, so I
have to be missing something here. Can you go further into this
to help a newbie out?

In the video he clearly draws his right arm arm back, and rolls it palm-up to his left shoulder. It is not checking. Infact, it is framing his entire upper body, leaving his face open to intentional/unintentional action. That's not the way that I learned the technique.

When I was taught this technique (by Frank Trejo), I was told the arm was to remain forward at the point in which it makes contact on the opponent's arm... Then, from point of origin, simultaneously strike your opponent with the handsword as your foot connects with the ground (Gravitational Marriage).

Other things that I see that need improvement: He doesn't step back into a proper neutral bow and stabalize his base while he executes the inward block, his fingers are apart and not in a good formulated handsword while he's executing that strike, his back foot is slightly pigeon-toed (turned outward, and not on a 45 degree angle to his centerline), and by analyzing his weight distribution on the 3rd and 4th frames he doesn't properly execute the transitional cat stance before delivering his ball kick.

Things that I see that are good: His front foot lands in a 45 degree to his centerline after he does the kick, his left hand is properly checking his lower body, and it looks like he has proper depth in his stance when his kicking leg settles with his handsword strike.

I would also like to add that I viewed this technique frame by frame.

I hope this helps,
Billy Lear

Originally posted by WilliamTLear

In the video he clearly draws his right arm arm back, and rolls it palm-up to his left shoulder. It is not checking. Infact, it is framing his entire upper body, leaving his face open to intentional/unintentional action. That's not the way that I learned the technique.


Okay, now that you pointed it out, I see it. I was told the arm was to remain forward at the point in which it makes contact on the opponent's arm too.

Originally posted by WilliamTLear

I hope this helps,


Sure did, thanks.

Originally posted by Mace

I think Mr Cha'pel uses that term, but I do not and have not trained with or under him, so I can' t answer for sure. Anyone else have a definition for slapcheck or know where the term originates from?
Mace

I heard that Mr Parker did it all the time, but that he didn't teach
it. So a lot of people have tried emulating it, but no one call
honestly say if it's what Mr Parker was doing or not. .. or
something to that effect :)

That was something Dr. Chapel wrote on the "other" forum. I have not heard any other senior refer to this "Slapcheck".

I was wondering if anyone else had heard of it in a seminar with one of the Seniors not of Dr. Chapel's lineage?

Just curious,
-Michael
UKS-Texas

Originally posted by Michael Billings

That was something Dr. Chapel wrote on the "other" forum. I have not heard any other senior refer to this "Slapcheck".

I was wondering if anyone else had heard of it in a seminar with one of the Seniors not of Dr. Chapel's lineage?

Just curious,
-Michael
UKS-Texas

I've heard other seniors make the noise from such a check, but none have referred to it as a slap check...

Mr. Mills immeadiately comes to mind... check out the video clips on his web site... You can definately see it... and hear it.

http://www.akki.com/_videos/swordhammerseries/swhmerseries.htm

By the way Mr. Billings, are you comming out to see us at the September Camp? I'm looking forward to meeting you someday. You seem like a pretty cool dude.

Take Care,
Billy Lear

well, isn't this how American Kenpo became known as a slap art?

Ed Parker was very loud with these slaps and karate traditionalists didn't know what to make of it. it seemed(s) like an added sound effect to them and had no application they knew of.

I believe in one of the prefaces for the insights books, the slaps are given an explanation as simply inserts (offensive or defensive)- though again as Chapel did write, there's no description of how, when, where, etc to put these "slaps" in, nor are they address anywhere else. they aren't in the manuals.

Chapel was the first person i've read who's addressed the "slap" or slapcheck in depth. There was however a rather curious attempt to explain them in a recent black belt article by some one else- though i confess, i wasn't clear on what the writer was trying to say.

here's a description from Chapel's glossary

SLAP-CHECK - An open handed palm strike that positions the hand to possibly be used offensively and/or defensively, and assists timing, and/or power through directional harmony.

peace.:asian:

Mr. Lear,

I am planning on making the UKS camp this year, but have some personal things going on with my family that may preclude it. My Dad lives out there and I have really missed not being able to get out there for the week as I usually do.

Slap checks are not the same as the "slapping" sound made when Kenpo was largely misunderstood, reference some of the old Black Belt Magazine interviews with Mr. Parker. As explained by him at a seminar I was attending, the slaps against yourself when working a technique by yourself were essentially done to simulate the reality of a check (possibly a slap check - but at that point he was using words like suppressing, pinning, etc.) against the opponent. They served to help us establish the broken rhythm timing of a technique as we allowed the opponent time to react. They "sounded" the same to an observer whether you worked with an opponent or just in the air.

Howard Silva helped me find these timing breaks and introduced me to rebounding off myself or actively checking the opponent. I have been in seminars with Mr. Mills and know he "slaps" but it is a similar active checking system to what most Kenpoist do who trained with Mr. Parker. Tom Kelly was the first Senior I ever met who did this and I could not understand why he was hitting himself - then against an opponent and the checks were no longer slaps against himself. Totally AWESOME explosive power and flow.

Anyhow, question still stands - any other Seniors (Mr. Parker's 7th Degrees) and those training with him who have started Associations or had him as their only teacher who use the specific wording of "Slap Check" as does Dr. Chapel?

-Michael
UKS-Texas

Originally posted by jazkiljok



here's a description from Chapel's glossary

SLAP-CHECK - An open handed palm strike that positions the hand to possibly be used offensively and/or defensively, and assists timing, and/or power through directional harmony.

peace.:asian:

I agree with that definition.

Originally posted by jazkiljok



I believe in one of the prefaces for the insights books, the slaps are given an explanation as simply inserts (offensive or defensive)- though again as Chapel did write, there's no description of how, when, where, etc to put these "slaps" in, nor are they address anywhere else. they aren't in the manuals.


I believe this is the preferace that you mentioned above.

Page VIII, paragraph two from the Preferace of Ed Parker's Infinite Insights into Kenpo Volume III, Physical Analyzation (by: Lee Wedlake Jr.):

As referred to earlier, an accusation made by persons unfamiliar with Kenpo is that it is a "slap art". That is, they wrongfully believe that slaps are inserted in a technique sequence to create sound effects rather than effectiveness. The "slap art" label stems from practitioners and observers alike who have not been privileged to analytically study the details involved in a technique. Consequently some moves are mistaken for a slap. To compound this misconception less expereinced students often improperly imitate their instructor. The truth of the matter is that many Kenpo techniques employ open hand checks. These checks insure the prevention of retaliatory moves (anticipated and unexpected) on the part of the opponent, or in some cases, act as a brace to enhance the effectiveness of your action. There are a number of methods used to check an opponent's actions -- striking checks, parrying checks, pinning checks, bracing checks, positioned checks, etc. Once the check is determined the slap is then visibly executed in a technique to indicate, by touch and sound, where the check is to be inserted. Only when the physical action of a check is rendered will you know the true value of these checks.

I hope this helps,
Billy Lear :asian:

Originally posted by Michael Billings


Slap checks are not the same as the "slapping" sound made when Kenpo was largely misunderstood, reference some of the old Black Belt Magazine interviews with Mr. Parker. As explained by him at a seminar I was attending, the slaps against yourself when working a technique by yourself were essentially done to simulate the reality of a check (possibly a slap check - but at that point he was using words like suppressing, pinning, etc.) against the opponent. They served to help us establish the broken rhythm timing of a technique as we allowed the opponent time to react. They "sounded" the same to an observer whether you worked with an opponent or just in the air.

We are on the same page... I agree with your definition of the slapping sound, and that it is misunderstood, even today.

As it pertains to the definition that Jazkiljok posted... The positioning of the hand for defensive purposes constitutes a check does it not? The guys really beat the crap outta me last night though... I could still have a few loose marbles... :lol:

I hope I get to see you. It would be fun, but I totally understand how family comes first.

Take Care,
Billy Lear ;)

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
The guys really beat the crap outta me last night though... I could still have a few loose marbles...


Well, gather up all those "pee wee's" and tie up the bag real tight!

:rofl:

quote: Originally posted by jazkiljok


here's a description from Chapel's glossary

SLAP-CHECK - An open handed palm strike that positions the hand to possibly be used offensively and/or defensively, and assists timing, and/or power through directional harmony.

peace.



Disclaimer: I, in no way, am trying to speak for the AKKI. These are my personal thoughts and opinions.

I'd be curious to know what Chapel's definition of directional harmony is. Although we don't call it a slap check, we do use something similiar in the AKKI. I say similiar because I've seen it done with other patterns of movement, not just directional harmony. The principle is simple in nature, but powerful in execution. The movements of a given technique have been mapped out so that when the primary hand is striking (whichever one that may be) the secondary is acting as a counter balance, and in most cases (99%), is being positioned to be the next strike. It just happens so fast that most don't see it, they just hear an extra "beat" that isn't directly associated with the strike.

Learning to use the body's natural "grooves" and patterns of motion with this repositioning/counterbalance (or slap-check if that's what you want to call it) you can create tremendously fast and powerful burst of strikes. By understanding these principles as well as the principles of structure, you can move incredibly fast and not have to sacrifice power.

I do Block checks, Kick checks, Rake checks, slice checks, strike checks.... etc....... all with proper body alignment, dimensional application, which results in directional harmony and back up mass.

:asian:

Good for you. I never said that you didn't do any of that stuff.

:D

Originally posted by Mace

So what is a positional check?


protecting my groin when my 2 year old is running full speed towards me head first!

couldnt resist :rofl:

One thing I like to do and I don't think people have caught on to me yet when I am working in Systema is to use the slap off myself in a rebounding or trampolining to increase my power and speed in a strike.

Not that they don't do this but I seem to have found a little niche where I can do it rather well because I'm a little ahead of the game in having had more practice.

:D

teaching our secrets to the ruskies again....
:rofl:
:asian: