View Full Version : Seven Years For The Foundation By Pete Starr


Bob Hubbard
08-28-2006, 03:24 PM
SEVEN YEARS FOR THE FOUNDATION
By Pete Starr

This April will mark my fiftieth year in the martial arts. Ironically enough, it is also the month that my first book, "The Making of a Butterfly" will hit the bookstores (this is just a cheap, shameless plug for the book...) - but in thinking back to my early days of training under Master Chen, I recall something he said that made me wonder if I would be able to continue training in the Chinese martial arts.


I was in the throes of a religious experience - that is, I thought I was seeing God - as I was doing my best to hold the "ma" (more correctly, the "ma-bu" or "horse-riding stance"). My legs were on fire and shaking like a jackhammer and I could hardly keep my back straight and breathe correctly. I collapsed, of course, but I resolved to get right back up and continue the exercise. And within a few seconds my legs gave way again.


Sifu Chen stopped me and told me about the vital importance of learning the "ma", of building a solid foundation. He told me that the first seven years of training were devoted to this end.


SEVEN YEARS???


Yep. He said it calmly, as if it was a fact that everybody knew and accepted. I couldn't imagine continuing this kind of training for seven years! But that's what he meant and that's what I ended up doing.


Oh, sure, I was taught many other things during that time. I learned all kinds of techniques and forms and two-person exercises and joint techniques and throws and...lots of stuff. But the emphasis on the ma was always there. I can't count the number of times that I listened to lectures about the importance of it.


I figured that if it was important enough for sifu to constantly lecture us about it, it was something I'd better practice. A lot. And I did. Eventually, I came to understand its value. This isn't something that can be completely understood just by reading or thinking about it. It has to be practiced, physically experienced over an extended period of time. That's the only way to "get it", to acquire the knowledge and ability that comes as a result of such painful practice.


The reason I thought about it was because my editor sent me a copy of a little blurb they're putting on the back cover of my book. It's a quote from the book about learning the "ma." I thought about how long it had been since I'd first started training and then noticed another line they'd put on the cover - that I'd been training for about 50 years (at the time the manuscript was sent in, it was only 48 1/2 years) and I was stunned. I guess time flies when you're having fun.


But even after five decades of practice (part of which past before I met Sifu Chen), I have to say that he was absolutely right. Without the proper foundation, learning real martial arts is impossible.


Building a strong "ma" doesn't necessarily mean that you only practice standing in a horse-riding stance for a certain length of time each day; it also has to do with learning how to step, how to shift your weight and move, how to stand in other stances (although the "ma" is the mother of all stances), how your breathing affects your movement, how your yi (intention) affects your movement, how to maintain balance when standing still and moving...lots of things. But they all have to do with the foundation. The "ma."


I remember back when beginning Judo students were made to spend most of their practice time learning not only ukemi (breakfalls), but the basic stance (jigotai). It's kind of a second cousin to the "ma." Students practiced shifting and stepping in this position. Times have changed; I don't think most modern Judoka have ever in so much as even heard of this posture.


There's no question that the vast majority of contemporary Kung-Fu (and Karate) practitioners have ever practiced the "ma." They may know what it is, alright - but they don't "have" it. They can intellectualize about it but they have no real foundation.


Sometimes I hear internal stylists argue that they don't use the horse-riding stance very much, if at all. That's fine. "Ma" literally means "horse" (as well as other things), but the term "ma" when it's use in conjunction with fundamental stance(s) simply refers to the style's most basic way of standing. In Xingyiquan and Baguazhang, the basic stance is "sanzai" (aka. "san tsai"). That's their "ma." In Taijiquan - well, it depends on who you talk to...some would say they do have a horse-riding stance (it appears in Commencement) while others use the "sanzai" stance...whatever. The point is that they do have a single, fundamental stance.


The problem is that most martial arts enthusiasts nowadays don't practice their "ma" anymore. In many cases their teachers don't (and probably never have), either. The teacher is sometimes afraid that if he makes students engage in such uncomfortable training, they'll quit - and that means loss of income. So they don't make students do it anymore. And now we're seeing the results - martial arts practitioners who have no real power, no real skill. No "ma."


I remember that my sifu used to insist that if we stood in the "ma" every day, our vital energy (chi) would eventually sink down to the dantien and we would be able to express great power. I couldn't imagine how this was possible. How could standing in this painful position accomplish that?
And he said that unless we built a solid "ma" we'd never be able to emit real power. We'd have no true strength. That confused me, too.


But he was absolutely right. And after watching the development of martial arts over the last fifty years, I must say that this old time-tested training method needs to be re-emphasized.


Practicing the "ma" has a positive impact on both physical and mental health, too. Many years ago, kung-fu teachers in China would often recommend it as a sort of therapy for a variety of ailments - especially for problems with the stomach and intestines. It was prescribed for some respiratory sicknesses, too.


It's an excellent tool for developing a strong yi (intention) and spirit. Try standing in it for ten or fifteen minutes and you'll understand why.


Most Americans dislike this kind of training. They want to jump right into the martial arts and get into the "meat" of it. They fail to see how standing in some static posture or doing boring drills like "walking the square horse" are going to help them become superior fighters.


But they do. It just takes time. You can't hurry the process. You have to learn patience, you have to willing to endure great discomfort, and you have to develop an iron will.


For seven years.

Xue Sheng
08-29-2006, 02:50 PM
I have posted a couple of times on this very subject here on MT and I have to say I am in total agreement with you,” ma bu” a.k.a. stance training is very important.

Many in martial arts today do no stance training what-so-ever and that to me undermines the art, but then again I have been called a Dinosaur from time to time too.

Many will say, and have said, it is just strength training and they can give you a bunch of leg exercises that will accomplish the same thing and are less boring. But they are missing the point, particularly those that train internal styles. It is relaxation in the posture, it is Qigong, it is strength training, etc.

If you look at Wing Chun’s first form Sil Lum Tao they too are doing stance training but many do not even realize it. When I first started training Xingyiquan and started standing in San Ti I almost passed out trying to hold the posture but the benefits of San Ti to Xingyi are great and if you train Xingyi without it, well to me you are not training Xingyi.

Back when I use to assist my Yang Style Sifu teach his class I use to tell people all of the time to train postures any posture, just pick one, and stand in it, breath feel what your muscles are doing, learn to relax in the posture. And on occasion I made them hold a posture for a minute or 2, generally with much complaining afterwards. However I am willing to bet that of all I told this to or made hold a stance, 1 maybe 2 actually continued stance training on their own, and you could tell just by watching a student if they did or not. Most however wanted to get to the form, the health benefits, the relaxation and of course the applications, but many never understood why they never really got there even though they never trained any stances.

I am now retuning to Chen style and the first thing I started was training Chen’s ma bu (if you will) it is also what the Chen family wants you to do as well. And as always it is of great benefit to the foundation of the art, any art for that matter, and I will continue to train stances as long as I can. To me this is the root of the art and doubly so if it is an internal style.

pstarr
08-29-2006, 03:47 PM
ExACTLY right! If there is no strength in the ma, there's no strength at all...not real strength. And I think that neglecting this fundamental (albeit painful) form of training and others like it are what's led to the overall degeneration of traditional martial arts.

Consequently, people look at the traditional arts and turn their noses up because they think they're weak...and in many cases, they're right. But the reason they've become weak is because they've tossed out too many of the "old ways." They want to think that they've found "new and improved" ways to develop their arts.

Fishnipples.

My students still practice the old, time-tested routines like standing in the ma. Ma training builds a whole lot more than strong legs and hips.

Xue Sheng
08-29-2006, 05:43 PM
Consequently, people look at the traditional arts and turn their noses up because they think they're weak...and in many cases, they're right. But the reason they've become weak is because they've tossed out too many of the "old ways." They want to think that they've found "new and improved" ways to develop their arts.

Fishnipples..[/quote]

Sadly I must agree with this, I have seen way to many empty forms in my time not to.

My students still practice the old, time-tested routines like standing in the ma. Ma training builds a whole lot more than strong legs and hips.

This however makes me much happier.

Touch Of Death
08-29-2006, 08:52 PM
SEVEN YEARS FOR THE FOUNDATION
By Pete Starr


This April will mark my fiftieth year in the martial arts. Ironically enough, it is also the month that my first book, "The Making of a Butterfly" will hit the bookstores (this is just a cheap, shameless plug for the book...) - but in thinking back to my early days of training under Master Chen, I recall something he said that made me wonder if I would be able to continue training in the Chinese martial arts.





I was in the throes of a religious experience - that is, I thought I was seeing God - as I was doing my best to hold the "ma" (more correctly, the "ma-bu" or "horse-riding stance"). My legs were on fire and shaking like a jackhammer and I could hardly keep my back straight and breathe correctly. I collapsed, of course, but I resolved to get right back up and continue the exercise. And within a few seconds my legs gave way again.





Sifu Chen stopped me and told me about the vital importance of learning the "ma", of building a solid foundation. He told me that the first seven years of training were devoted to this end.





SEVEN YEARS???





Yep. He said it calmly, as if it was a fact that everybody knew and accepted. I couldn't imagine continuing this kind of training for seven years! But that's what he meant and that's what I ended up doing.





Oh, sure, I was taught many other things during that time. I learned all kinds of techniques and forms and two-person exercises and joint techniques and throws and...lots of stuff. But the emphasis on the ma was always there. I can't count the number of times that I listened to lectures about the importance of it.





I figured that if it was important enough for sifu to constantly lecture us about it, it was something I'd better practice. A lot. And I did. Eventually, I came to understand its value. This isn't something that can be completely understood just by reading or thinking about it. It has to be practiced, physically experienced over an extended period of time. That's the only way to "get it", to acquire the knowledge and ability that comes as a result of such painful practice.





The reason I thought about it was because my editor sent me a copy of a little blurb they're putting on the back cover of my book. It's a quote from the book about learning the "ma." I thought about how long it had been since I'd first started training and then noticed another line they'd put on the cover - that I'd been training for about 50 years (at the time the manuscript was sent in, it was only 48 1/2 years) and I was stunned. I guess time flies when you're having fun.





But even after five decades of practice (part of which past before I met Sifu Chen), I have to say that he was absolutely right. Without the proper foundation, learning real martial arts is impossible.





Building a strong "ma" doesn't necessarily mean that you only practice standing in a horse-riding stance for a certain length of time each day; it also has to do with learning how to step, how to shift your weight and move, how to stand in other stances (although the "ma" is the mother of all stances), how your breathing affects your movement, how your yi (intention) affects your movement, how to maintain balance when standing still and moving...lots of things. But they all have to do with the foundation. The "ma."





I remember back when beginning Judo students were made to spend most of their practice time learning not only ukemi (breakfalls), but the basic stance (jigotai). It's kind of a second cousin to the "ma." Students practiced shifting and stepping in this position. Times have changed; I don't think most modern Judoka have ever in so much as even heard of this posture.





There's no question that the vast majority of contemporary Kung-Fu (and Karate) practitioners have ever practiced the "ma." They may know what it is, alright - but they don't "have" it. They can intellectualize about it but they have no real foundation.





Sometimes I hear internal stylists argue that they don't use the horse-riding stance very much, if at all. That's fine. "Ma" literally means "horse" (as well as other things), but the term "ma" when it's use in conjunction with fundamental stance(s) simply refers to the style's most basic way of standing. In Xingyiquan and Baguazhang, the basic stance is "sanzai" (aka. "san tsai"). That's their "ma." In Taijiquan - well, it depends on who you talk to...some would say they do have a horse-riding stance (it appears in Commencement) while others use the "sanzai" stance...whatever. The point is that they do have a single, fundamental stance.





The problem is that most martial arts enthusiasts nowadays don't practice their "ma" anymore. In many cases their teachers don't (and probably never have), either. The teacher is sometimes afraid that if he makes students engage in such uncomfortable training, they'll quit - and that means loss of income. So they don't make students do it anymore. And now we're seeing the results - martial arts practitioners who have no real power, no real skill. No "ma."





I remember that my sifu used to insist that if we stood in the "ma" every day, our vital energy (chi) would eventually sink down to the dantien and we would be able to express great power. I couldn't imagine how this was possible. How could standing in this painful position accomplish that?


And he said that unless we built a solid "ma" we'd never be able to emit real power. We'd have no true strength. That confused me, too.





But he was absolutely right. And after watching the development of martial arts over the last fifty years, I must say that this old time-tested training method needs to be re-emphasized.





Practicing the "ma" has a positive impact on both physical and mental health, too. Many years ago, kung-fu teachers in China would often recommend it as a sort of therapy for a variety of ailments - especially for problems with the stomach and intestines. It was prescribed for some respiratory sicknesses, too.





It's an excellent tool for developing a strong yi (intention) and spirit. Try standing in it for ten or fifteen minutes and you'll understand why.





Most Americans dislike this kind of training. They want to jump right into the martial arts and get into the "meat" of it. They fail to see how standing in some static posture or doing boring drills like "walking the square horse" are going to help them become superior fighters.





But they do. It just takes time. You can't hurry the process. You have to learn patience, you have to willing to endure great discomfort, and you have to develop an iron will.





For seven years.
This is just a big long way of saying people aren't bending their legs enough and the buissiness of MA is causing lazy martial artists. I disagree that the horse is a fighting must, but I respect the sentiment. I think we all feel that way about those "other" schools.
Sean

BlackCatBonz
08-29-2006, 09:07 PM
I sometimes showed up to class.....only to stand there for an hour in a deep kiba dachi or zenkutsu dachi......I didnt really think I was learning anything at the time.....
It's funny how that changes over time.

Xue Sheng
08-29-2006, 09:09 PM
This is just a big long way of saying people aren't bending their legs enough and the buissiness of MA is causing lazy martial artists.

Actually no, there is a whole lot more to it.


I disagree that the horse is a fighting must, but I respect the sentiment. I think we all feel that way about those "other" schools.
Sean

And where does he say it is a fighting must?

Touch Of Death
08-29-2006, 09:21 PM
Actually no, there is a whole lot more to it.




And where does he say it is a fighting must?I would assume that "real power" and "true strength" were fighting musts but thats just me.
Sean

Xue Sheng
08-29-2006, 09:22 PM
I would assume that "real power" and "true strength" were fighting musts but thats just me.
Sean

sigh.. never mind

Touch Of Death
08-29-2006, 09:27 PM
sigh.. never mindI guess your saying that being a "superior" fighter is not a must to be a fighter... right?
Sean

BlackCatBonz
08-29-2006, 09:32 PM
I guess what he might be saying is.....is you're not doing it......you're not knowing what your lacking.

Touch Of Death
08-29-2006, 09:45 PM
I guess what he might be saying is.....is you're not doing it......you're not knowing what your lacking.I've worked the Idea.
Sean

Xue Sheng
08-29-2006, 10:40 PM
I guess your saying that being a "superior" fighter is not a must to be a fighter... right?
Sean

I guess you are looking for an argument and I will not give you one.
you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.

SFC JeffJ
08-29-2006, 11:16 PM
This reminds me of my first few months in Kyokishin Karate. Till my first testing, the only classes I was allowed to go to consisted of nothing more than practicing kihon in Sanchin Dachi. And even then, when I could go to the other two classes of the week, the three regular classes were still all in Sanchin Dachi.

Ever since then, when able, I still practice in that stance. Lots of practicing Tensho (a kata entirely of Sanchin Dachi stances) too. This has really allowed me to connect my "center" with my techniques.

Jeff

BlackCatBonz
08-30-2006, 01:27 AM
I've worked the Idea.
Sean

when you say you've worked the idea.....what exactly do you mean?

I am in no way trying to start something here.....this is a genuine question.

I've worked plenty of ideas.......but I haven't made them a main focus of my training, that doesnt mean "I get it" or "I'm feeling it".

connectedness is more than an anatomical thing.

Touch Of Death
08-30-2006, 07:48 PM
I'm saying I have spent a lot of time in horse stances in the various schools and styles I have been involved in. Two of the most extreem examples were some Tracy's Kenpo I took in Aurora Colorado and Shito Ryu in Everette WA. If that helps.
Sean