Mushin

[JasonASmith]

Hey Folks,
I came across the term "Mushin" when I was reading Living the Martial Way by F. Morgan(Great Book), and I was wondering if anyone has ever experienced it...
According to the book it means "mind no mind"...
From what I've read in Mr. Morgan's book, it's obvious when you see it, and I think that I just have...
I had my first class in Shotokan earlier today, and Sensei demonstrated some techniques on me(which I thought was pretty cool)
After he explained what he wanted me to do, he stepped back into a natural stance and had me attack him...And his face...changed...it's hard to explain, but all of the wrinkles in his face smoothed out, his eyes assumed something of an empty expression(not vacant, however), and I just had the impression that there would be no way in hell(or heaven) that I would be able to even remotely touch him...
I got the overall impression of...power...power and awareness...
So, is it Mushin?

[Bigshadow]

I got the overall impression of...power...power and awareness...
So, is it Mushin?
Jason,

It would be difficult to answer that. Maybe you should ask your instructor to get his opinion of it. I have read the book you were talking about. I believe I have experienced mushin for brief periods of time during training, but I could not tell you if my opponent did. It is something you can probably answer for yourself if it were something you experienced but it is difficult to answer for the experiences of someone else, regarding matters such as this.

Just my opinion.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Better definition of Mushin:

The momentary perfect alignment of mind, body and spirit to purpose.

Cheers,

Dave

PS -- yes. Had it. Amazing experience. Did a lot of work to try to elicit it fomr my students. Didn't see the Tom Cruise movie Las Samurai, until one of my old BB's said they did a good cinemagraphic rep of mushin. They did.

D

[JasonASmith]

Jason,

It would be difficult to answer that. Maybe you should ask your instructor to get his opinion of it. I have read the book you were talking about. I believe I have experienced mushin for brief periods of time during training, but I could not tell you if my opponent did. It is something you can probably answer for yourself if it were something you experienced but it is difficult to answer for the experiences of someone else, regarding matters such as this.

Just my opinion.

Thanks,
I will ask him about the concept...
I will say that that feeling that I got from him was...well...strange...
Not in a bad way, mind you...I wasn't afraid that I was going to get hurt...
I am prepared for the inevitable bumps, bruises, and joint pain...
I think what it was(and why I posted this thread) was how FAST I got that feeling from him...I mean, one minute he was the guy that I have been talking to for the past few weeks, and the next minute he was something else...And after I attacked(as he told me to) he was back to the person that I knew...explaining everything down to the most minute detail(and bending me into a position that I didn't think that I could go into) In short, he was back to his jovial old self...
Once again, I am not afraid of him...far from it...I just kind of confused, I guess.

[BlackCatBonz]

I may catch a lot of flak for this....but here goes.

You know when you get up in the morning, walk to the bathroom....do your business, brush your teeth, comb your hair, get dressed and leave for work?
That's doing not doing.
That's mushin......not some mystical thing that takes years to master.

we get so caught up in some things and try to think through every minute detail.....in doing so, we miss the big picture.

You don't think about walking up or downstairs until you do that thing when you think there is one more step.

[Bigshadow]

I may catch a lot of flak for this....but here goes.

You know when you get up in the morning, walk to the bathroom....do your business, brush your teeth, comb your hair, get dressed and leave for work?
That's doing not doing. That's mushin......

I believe you are absolutely right! I guess the question as I understood it was mushin related to martial arts training.




not some mystical thing that takes years to master.

I agree, it is NOT mystical and I agree it may not take YEARS to master. But what it does take is many, many repetitions of doing something. How many times did you have to do the routine you explained before it was mushin? How much did you have to drive before you drive to work without any thought to driving and the changing driving conditions?

It may not take years, but it certainly takes doing something many times. Then I don't believe it is mastery. I believe in the cases you and I brought up, mushin is the by-product of doing an action so much. However, I believe mastery is being able to turn it on or off at will no matter what you are doing. I certainly cannot do that... :(

[heretic888]

I personally disagree with every explanation given thus far, so I'm just gonna point to a Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin) for now:


Mushin (無心) is a state into which very highly trained martial artists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_art) are said to enter during combat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat). The term is shortened from mushin no shin (無心の心}, a Zen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen) expression meaning "mind of no mind". That is, a mind not fixed or occupied by thought or emotion and thus open to everything.

Mushin is achieved when a fighter feels no anger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anger), fear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear) or ego during combat. There is an absence of discursive thought (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Discursive_thought&action=edit), and so the fighter is totally free to act and react towards an opponent without hesitation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesitation). At this point, a person relies not on what they think should be the next move, but what is felt intuitively (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuition_%28knowledge%29).

A martial artist would likely have to train for many years to be capable of mushin. This allows time for combinations of movements and exchanges of techniques to be practised repetitively many thousands of times, until they can be performed spontaneously and without conscious thought.

The legendary Zen master and swordsman Takuan Soho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takuan_Soho) said:

"The mind must always be in the state of 'flowing,' for when it stops anywhere that means the flow is interrupted and it is this interruption that is injurious to the well-being of the mind. In the case of the swordsman, it means death. "When the swordsman stands against his opponent, he is not to think of the opponent, nor of himself, nor of his enemy's sword movements. He just stands there with his sword which, forgetful of all technique, is ready only to follow the dictates of the subconscious. The man has effaced himself as the wielder of the sword. When he strikes, it is not the man but the sword in the hand of the man's subconscious that strikes."

However, Mushin is not just a state of mind that can be achieved during combat. Many Martial Artists, particularly those practicing Japanese martial arts such as aikido (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido) or iaijutsu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaijutsu), train to achieve this state of mind during Kata (Waza, or patterns) so that a flawless execution of moves is accomplished - that they may be achieved during combat or at any other time. Once Mushin is attained through the practicing or studying of Martial Arts (although it can be accomplished through other arts or practices that refine the mind and body), the objective is to then attain this same level of complete awareness in other aspects of the practitioner's life.

Mushin is very closely related to another state of mind known as heijoshin (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heijoshin&action=edit), wherein a complete balance and harmony is attained in one's life through mental discipline. Musashi Miyamoto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musashi_Miyamoto) the great swordsman alighted to these mental states briefly, and his conversations with Jattaro (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jattaro&action=edit) were often repeated in Japanese folklore as lessons to be learnt for the practice of one's life. Mushin and heijoshin are closely related to the teachings of buddhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism) and mostly zen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen) teachings, and indeed the more mental aspects and attributes share much in common with these philosophies.

Personally, I think the quote by Takuan Soho was spot on.

Laterz.

[Bigshadow]

I personally disagree with every explanation given thus far, so I'm just gonna point to a Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin) for now:



Personally, I think the quote by Takuan Soho was spot on.

Laterz.
Thanks! That was a great post! I have to rethink what I said. :D I knew I shouldn't have posted anything on this thread! :D Haven't had enough coffee yet. ;)

[BlackCatBonz]

I personally disagree with every explanation given thus far, so I'm just gonna point to a Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin) for now:



Personally, I think the quote by Takuan Soho was spot on.

Laterz.

Aside from the definition of mushin......i think the rest of the wiki entry is neither here nor there as to what mushin is.

Mushin is really a simple concept, and I didnt really understand how simple it was even after 10 years meditation until a teacher pointed it out to me during a class at shiatsu school.

the Soho quote is great, but it doesn't really describe mushin....
mushin is neither flowing or forgetful, open or closed, black or white.
it is all of those things and none of them at the same time.

It's been close to 15 years that i first became serious about zen practice, not very long I know, but long enough for me to realise that the easiest questions are often the hardest to answer because the simple reply is often the most overlooked.

[heretic888]

Aside from the definition of mushin......i think the rest of the wiki entry is neither here nor there as to what mushin is.

Mushin is really a simple concept, and I didnt really understand how simple it was even after 10 years meditation until a teacher pointed it out to me during a class at shiatsu school.

the Soho quote is great, but it doesn't really describe mushin....
mushin is neither flowing or forgetful, open or closed, black or white.
it is all of those things and none of them at the same time.

It's been close to 15 years that i first became serious about zen practice, not very long I know, but long enough for me to realise that the easiest questions are often the hardest to answer because the simple reply is often the most overlooked.

Now that's an explanation I can actually agree with. :D

[Nomad]

I've had an example of mushin described to me as doing a kata that you know well and losing yourself in the kata... you finish, knowing that you performed it well, but with no memory whatsoever of the individual moves. I have also experienced this once in competition.

Mushin is an altered state of mind that many martial artists will experience during their practice sessions, but usually only rarely. One problem is that as soon as you recognize that it is happening, it is gone. What takes years and years of dedicated practice is being able to move between normal consciousness and this state of flowing described by Takuan at will.

I suspect what Jason was seeing in his instructor was the sense of absolute focus that experienced martial artists get when they are practicing or performing... much like a tiger, they are 100% there in the moment and focused on you and the drill (analogy stolen from Bolelli's "On the Warrior's Path... a great read). Yes, it can a very scary thing to someone who isn't used to it. I know of a couple of people who have used this focused concentration by itself to "convince" a belligerent thug that he'd really rather not instigate a fight after all...

[Monadnock]

As for developing it, try meditation and shugyo.

[Last Fearner]

Hey Folks,
I came across the term "Mushin" when I was reading Living the Martial Way by F. Morgan(Great Book), and I was wondering if anyone has ever experienced it...
Yes, I have experienced it often, and find it easier to achieve the longer I train, and practice it. I hope this statement does not sound arrogant, or like I am bragging, but it is just a fortunate by-product of my training. I don't know if I have a natural ability, a knack for it, or if it is because I was introduced to the concept at an early age, and have practiced it for my entire life. I am sure my students have observed it in my demeanor at various times, as you did with your instructor, but it is really only something that the person experiencing it can know, for sure, when it has occurred.

Personally, I would not disagree with any of the above definitions, or explanations as it is a personal experience that can occur during any action, anytime, anywhere. Many people have it happen during routine activities of the day. Others during the performance of a sport. Golfers, such as Tiger Woods, no doubt has utilized the skill, as well as race car drivers, stunt men, gun-fighters of the old American West, and many more. For the untrained individual, it is more likely to occur when you least expect it, during a repetitious and familiar activity, or in an instant response to a sudden stimulus or urgent situation.


According to the book it means "mind no mind"...
The Wikipedia definition is accurate that it is shortened from "Mushin No Shin" (Mind of No Mind). It means that your conscious mind must be clear of thought, allowing your subconscious to act in perfect response without interference. If you know the best, ideal action in any given situation, you must not "think" about it - - just do it by subconscious reflex.

If you have seen the movie The Last Samurai, with Tom Cruise, there is a scene where one of the Japanese Samurai attempts to tell Cruise's character why he is not doing well in the practice fighting during his sword training. He says "too many mind." He tells the American that he has mind on sword, opponent, and people watching. He says "No mind!" This means no distractions, no emotion, no intent to attack, and no forethought on what your opponent might do, or how you will respond.


I just had the impression that there would be no way in hell(or heaven) that I would be able to even remotely touch him...

I got the overall impression of...power...power and awareness...
So, is it Mushin?
It is likely that what you observed in your instructor's demeanor, and facial expression (or lack thereof) was evidence that he had prepared his mind for Mushin No Shin to occur. An opponent can sometimes sense this is happening, as you did when facing your instructor. However, this has little to do with "power," and more to do with the un-obstructed, subconscious performance with complete synchronized harmony between the body, mind, and spirit. While the moments preceding the event are often crucial to preparing the mind, the actual existence of Mushin No Shin will only manifest during the action which follows. The clear mind can be disturbed, and the state of Mushin No Shin lost during the moment of activity.

In modern times, people might describe this experience as being "in the zone," or "in the flow" of things. A person performing a task, responding to an attack, or playing a sport experiences a purely sublime feeling, knowing that their action was dead on perfect without any conscious effort or forethought. In contrast, you are probably familiar with the phrase "to choke under pressure." This is typically the exact opposite of Mushin No Shin. The conscious mind takes over, and too much thought of preparation, fear of failure, or other distractions causes a person to not be able to properly perform something they have done thousands of times before.

As mentioned in Wikipedia's definition, Mushin No Shin is experienced in forms practice also, but I disagree in their statement that this is "particularly in Japanese Martial Arts." It is my experience that all genuine variations of the Martial Art which understands and teaches Mushin No Shin will extend it to other areas (including forms, sparring, and board breaking). In other countries, it may have been labeled differently, but the Japanese term has become very well-known.

Also, I want to point out that, while skills such as "Mushin No Shin" were often a part of Zen training, and connected to Eastern Buddhism, the technique itself is a natural skill common among all humans, and is not directly, or inherently related to any religious doctrine. Therefore, it should be understood that the practice of a "clear mind for ideal action," under any name, does not constitute the practice of buddhism, or the worshiping of any other diety. If you believe in God, for instance, then it should be understood that God created the human brain, and the talents by which we can use that God given gift perfectly, and naturally.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

[Brother John]

Wish I could contribute more, but a LOT of really great things have been contributed thus far!!! I love this subject, and things of this nature.

Thanks to EVERYONE for a great discussion!!

Your Brother
John

[Zennomore]

I came upon this understanding through the path of the Martial Arts, and the realization of something called Mushin.
I first discovered Mushin while competing in a judo tournament, where I found myself behind in the score.
From out on the mat, I could hear my wife yelling, “If you don’t do something soon, you are going to lose!”
The next thing I knew, I was sliding across the mat and the referee was calling an end to the match, with the score Ippon.
I was lying there thinking, “Okay what did he throw me with, and how did I lose?”
I looked over at the referee as he lifted his hand toward me, signaling that I had won the match.
I looked at the corner judges, fully expecting them to overrule his signal, sure that there had to have been a mistake! Instead, my Sensei yelled, “Get off the mat!”

I slowly walked over to him, and he asked, “What’s wrong with you?” I looked at him and said, “What happened?”
Sensei, who is a famous player in his own right, looked at me a little strangely, and said, “You won.”
“How?” I asked. He looked at me, breaking into a huge smile and said, “Oh, so you really don’t know what happened?” I said, “No, all I remember is sliding across the mat on my stomach.”

He said, “Oh Ken, now you learn Judo!”
I knew I had just had a shared experience of mushin only because my sensei recognized the symptoms and later told me what happen. I am looking for other's who have had mushin in competition and how it's has changed their lives.

[jks9199]

That's not "mushin." Mushin is a calm awareness and centeredness. Not saying that those moments when things just come together and you don't know how or what happens aren't great experiences -- but they're almost the opposite of mushin, at least as I understand the usage of the term.

[Zennomore]

this experience was only the very beginning of mushin. it was the body doing in reflex without thought. it was the reflex of no mind that began to expose the real use of no mind in daily life. once the understanding that the body was trained as you blink, without thought of action you just blink, was the beginning of realizing all the barriers that conscience mind put in the way of centeredness and awareness. It separated what i had thought was whole. i became very aware of the mind's influences. mushin is a tool to find mind and body and the influences they have on one another.

[Chris Parker]

Yeah... that wasn't mushin.

[seasoned]

So, someone help me to understand.

I know that when I take the thought process out of an activity, it allows me to see more, feel more, hear more.

example:

I have heard of mushin as being a moving meditation. So, in the middle of confusion, one is able to focus by not focusing. One is able to see all without looking, able to hear all without listening, and above all feel through an avenue of a 6th sense.


Now my question is, and be nice. Is this Mushin, or some part of it, or am I just weirded out? :)

[Chris Parker]

Er, no and no?

I'll see how I go explaining things a bit clearer, as the confusion is fairly common, and both your version and Zennomore's are not unusual.

Firstly, it might do to look at what it isn't, rather than skip ahead to what it is. Mushin doesn't necessarily imply any movement at all (although it is often linked with action), so it isn't a "moving meditation". That term is more often applied to things such as kata (Okinawan form), Iai, Kyudo and so on. It's also not a sixth sense, although there are aspects that can "link in" to such ideas (without going into too much detail here), and the concept of Mushin is often a necessary part of the development of such things.

With Zennomore's story, that's really more about unconscious performance, even intuitive action, but not Mushin itself.

So what is Mushin? Honestly, it's one of those things where you know it when you feel it, you can recognize it, but describing it is another matter altogether, so if this doesn't quite work, you'll understand why!

In simple terms, the concept of Mushin is an absence of the mind... but the thing to remember is that that's not meant in a Western sense. Mushin is also linked closely with the concept of Fudoshin (immovable mind), often with particular systems preferring one over the other. Mushin is the absence of conscious decision making, it's the absence of emotional extremes, it's the absence of any thoughts of what might happen, any pre-judgement or expectation.

To get more metaphorical, it's the still waters of a lake, with all the depths hidden. It's the appearance of water on the moon. It's the imperceptible shadow. It's damn scary.

[jks9199]

My understanding is that mushin is a level of awareness and detachment. You're not thinking, not expecting, not caring -- but completely aware and acting completely under control at the same time. Something happens, and you respond correctly, smoothly, intentionally -- but you haven't planned it and you don't do it in a consciously planned manner.

Confused yet? :D It's a really hard concept to understand -- but unmistakable when you see and experience it.

[seasoned]

So, Chris, it isn't Mushin that one experiences in conflict, but there is a by product of Mushin that one can feel?

[Zennomore]

We train over and over to have a neurological response to defend or attack, when the body takes over these responses we no longer have to think about the fight. This is where the beginnings of mushin begins, this is putting your toe into the ocean of calm. I have for many years have seen people who have these experiences and not recognize the importances of this beginnings. I have trained at the highest level in Judo with people from all over the world and have been pushed to the point of total exhaustion. These are the stepping stones of overcoming the mind’s limited understanding in how far you can go. It is here that mind and body begin to argue who is right, I can’t go any further until you don’t have a choice and you must go further. This is only the beginning of the process. After realizing the possibilities of mushin I trained to fight without worrying about self or outcome. I found myself in the state of calm and awareness while I competed in all the international and national championships. It became more important the state of mind rather than the outcome. I have for many years looked into the many levels of mushin tried to see how and where this state of mind related with Psychology, Philosophy (Zen) and have realized that mushin has many levels.
Muga-mushin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muga-mushin)

[Chris Parker]

So, Chris, it isn't Mushin that one experiences in conflict, but there is a by product of Mushin that one can feel?

Hey, Wes,

Uh... no? The aim is that mushin exists during conflict (ideally, that's where you want it the most), but that's a matter of training it properly in the first place. And there's not a byproduct of mushin you can feel, you can feel mushin.


We train over and over to have a neurological response to defend or attack, when the body takes over these responses we no longer have to think about the fight.

That's not mushin, that's muscle memory.


This is where the beginnings of mushin begins, this is putting your toe into the ocean of calm.

No, it's not. It's often mistaken for it, but it's not mushin.


I have for many years have seen people who have these experiences and not recognize the importances of this beginnings.

Look, what you're talking about is great, and very valuable, but it's not mushin.


I have trained at the highest level in Judo with people from all over the world and have been pushed to the point of total exhaustion.

Er, okay... not mushin, though.


These are the stepping stones of overcoming the mind’s limited understanding in how far you can go. It is here that mind and body begin to argue who is right, I can’t go any further until you don’t have a choice and you must go further.

No, that's more about mental discipline. Not mushin either.


This is only the beginning of the process. After realizing the possibilities of mushin I trained to fight without worrying about self or outcome.

Uh, actually, that's still not mushin.


I found myself in the state of calm and awareness while I competed in all the international and national championships. It became more important the state of mind rather than the outcome.

Lovely. Not mushin, though.


I have for many years looked into the many levels of mushin tried to see how and where this state of mind related with Psychology, Philosophy (Zen) and have realized that mushin has many levels.
Muga-mushin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muga-mushin)

Uh, I'd want more than a wiki article with some rather odd references before I took that as meaning anything... there's not a lot right in that article.

I don't want you to think I'm coming down hard for any reason, but nothing you've described is mushin. It's all valuable, definitely, but it's not mushin.

[seasoned]

I think at this point I will bow out. It sounds like Mushin can't be taught, but only certain path ways will lead you there. It sounds like, perhaps, one can get there and not know it, or have it and not realize it.
I feel that I have been there and I do realize it, but to explain a feeling is hard enough person to person, let alone on line. Thanks for your time and input. :)

[Chris Parker]

Ha, don't blame you, my friend...

Yes, mushin can be taught, but that's by experience, guided by someone who already knows and is experienced with it, providing a "model"... it's not something that can be intellectually learned, though.

I will say that simply having an absence of (conscious) mind, the way the concept is often interpreted by a Western mind, isn't mushin, and that's what most think it is. As a result, most who think they've experienced it have experienced more what Zennomore has (and you have, from the sounds of it). Believe me that mushin is really quite scary... and you'd know it if you'd experienced it.

[Sukerkin]

:chuckles: Aye, this is a hard concept to describe all right, especially with a Western, 'causal and analytical' mindset.

I have thought for some time that I understood what mushin was and have felt that I have had the odd flash of it when having to improvise whilst teaching partner forms :). But maybe I do not after all.

To me, mushin means to be in the moment, not concerning yourself with what has come before or what comes after. No conscience, no fear, no hope, no anger and so on. It contains lots of sub-strata that are familiar to martial artists, some of which have come out above. As Mr. Parker has said, it is not merely reflexive action, which is the non-conscious parts of your brain doing the job it is supposed to do; it is conscious action but coming from an emotionless state of mind.

I have sometimes heard that to include that sublimation of the survival of the 'self' that allows the taking of an opening to give victory, even if the outcome is that you lose your life. That's not to be confused with suicide; it's a conscious choice when it is the only path to the goal. Not so sure about that one, altho' I can understand it in the context of the supposed mind-set of the samurai in centuries gone by.

[seasoned]

I may catch a lot of flak for this....but here goes.

You know when you get up in the morning, walk to the bathroom....do your business, brush your teeth, comb your hair, get dressed and leave for work?
That's doing not doing.
That's mushin......not some mystical thing that takes years to master.

we get so caught up in some things and try to think through every minute detail.....in doing so, we miss the big picture.

You don't think about walking up or downstairs until you do that thing when you think there is one more step.


Aside from the definition of mushin......i think the rest of the wiki entry is neither here nor there as to what mushin is.

Mushin is really a simple concept, and I didnt really understand how simple it was even after 10 years meditation until a teacher pointed it out to me during a class at shiatsu school.

the Soho quote is great, but it doesn't really describe mushin....
mushin is neither flowing or forgetful, open or closed, black or white.
it is all of those things and none of them at the same time.

It's been close to 15 years that i first became serious about zen practice, not very long I know, but long enough for me to realise that the easiest questions are often the hardest to answer because the simple reply is often the most overlooked.


I've had an example of mushin described to me as doing a kata that you know well and losing yourself in the kata... you finish, knowing that you performed it well, but with no memory whatsoever of the individual moves. I have also experienced this once in competition.

Mushin is an altered state of mind that many martial artists will experience during their practice sessions, but usually only rarely. One problem is that as soon as you recognize that it is happening, it is gone. What takes years and years of dedicated practice is being able to move between normal consciousness and this state of flowing described by Takuan at will.

I suspect what Jason was seeing in his instructor was the sense of absolute focus that experienced martial artists get when they are practicing or performing... much like a tiger, they are 100% there in the moment and focused on you and the drill (analogy stolen from Bolelli's "On the Warrior's Path... a great read). Yes, it can a very scary thing to someone who isn't used to it. I know of a couple of people who have used this focused concentration by itself to "convince" a belligerent thug that he'd really rather not instigate a fight after all...


That's not "mushin." Mushin is a calm awareness and centeredness. Not saying that those moments when things just come together and you don't know how or what happens aren't great experiences -- but they're almost the opposite of mushin, at least as I understand the usage of the term.


this experience was only the very beginning of mushin. it was the body doing in reflex without thought. it was the reflex of no mind that began to expose the real use of no mind in daily life. once the understanding that the body was trained as you blink, without thought of action you just blink, was the beginning of realizing all the barriers that conscience mind put in the way of centeredness and awareness. It separated what i had thought was whole. i became very aware of the mind's influences. mushin is a tool to find mind and body and the influences they have on one another.


So, someone help me to understand.

I know that when I take the thought process out of an activity, it allows me to see more, feel more, hear more.

example:

I have heard of mushin as being a moving meditation. So, in the middle of confusion, one is able to focus by not focusing. One is able to see all without looking, able to hear all without listening, and above all feel through an avenue of a 6th sense.


Now my question is, and be nice. Is this Mushin, or some part of it, or am I just weirded out? :)


:chuckles: Aye, this is a hard concept to describe all right, especially with a Western, 'causal and analytical' mindset.

I have thought for some time that I understood what mushin was and have felt that I have had the odd flash of it when having to improvise whilst teaching partner forms :). But maybe I do not after all.

To me, mushin means to be in the moment, not concerning yourself with what has come before or what comes after. No conscience, no fear, no hope, no anger and so on. It contains lots of sub-strata that are familiar to martial artists, some of which have come out above. As Mr. Parker has said, it is not merely reflexive action, which is the non-conscious parts of your brain doing the job it is supposed to do; it is conscious action but coming from an emotionless state of mind.

I have sometimes heard that to include that sublimation of the survival of the 'self' that allows the taking of an opening to give victory, even if the outcome is that you lose your life. That's not to be confused with suicide; it's a conscious choice when it is the only path to the goal. Not so sure about that one, altho' I can understand it in the context of the supposed mind-set of the samurai in centuries gone by.


Hey Folks,
I came across the term "Mushin" when I was reading Living the Martial Way by F. Morgan(Great Book), and I was wondering if anyone has ever experienced it...
According to the book it means "mind no mind"...
From what I've read in Mr. Morgan's book, it's obvious when you see it, and I think that I just have...
I had my first class in Shotokan earlier today, and Sensei demonstrated some techniques on me(which I thought was pretty cool)
After he explained what he wanted me to do, he stepped back into a natural stance and had me attack him...And his face...changed...it's hard to explain, but all of the wrinkles in his face smoothed out, his eyes assumed something of an empty expression(not vacant, however), and I just had the impression that there would be no way in hell(or heaven) that I would be able to even remotely touch him...
I got the overall impression of...power...power and awareness...
So, is it Mushin?


Jason,

It would be difficult to answer that. Maybe you should ask your instructor to get his opinion of it. I have read the book you were talking about. I believe I have experienced mushin for brief periods of time during training, but I could not tell you if my opponent did. It is something you can probably answer for yourself if it were something you experienced but it is difficult to answer for the experiences of someone else, regarding matters such as this.

Just my opinion.


Better definition of Mushin:

The momentary perfect alignment of mind, body and spirit to purpose.

Cheers,

Dave

PS -- yes. Had it. Amazing experience. Did a lot of work to try to elicit it fomr my students. Didn't see the Tom Cruise movie Las Samurai, until one of my old BB's said they did a good cinemagraphic rep of mushin. They did.

D


]As for developing it, try meditation and shugyo[/COLOR].


Yes, I have experienced it often, and find it easier to achieve the longer I train, and practice it. I hope this statement does not sound arrogant, or like I am bragging, but it is just a fortunate by-product of my training. I don't know if I have a natural ability, a knack for it, or if it is because I was introduced to the concept at an early age, and have practiced it for my entire life. I am sure my students have observed it in my demeanor at various times, as you did with your instructor, but it is really only something that the person experiencing it can know, for sure, when it has occurred.

Personally, I would not disagree with any of the above definitions, or explanations as it is a personal experience that can occur during any action, anytime, anywhere. Many people have it happen during routine activities of the day. Others during the performance of a sport. Golfers, such as Tiger Woods, no doubt has utilized the skill, as well as race car drivers, stunt men, gun-fighters of the old American West, and many more. For the untrained individual, it is more likely to occur when you least expect it, during a repetitious and familiar activity, or in an instant response to a sudden stimulus or urgent situation.


The Wikipedia definition is accurate that it is shortened from "Mushin No Shin" (Mind of No Mind). It means that your conscious mind must be clear of thought, allowing your subconscious to act in perfect response without interference. If you know the best, ideal action in any given situation, you must not "think" about it - - just do it by subconscious reflex.

If you have seen the movie The Last Samurai, with Tom Cruise, there is a scene where one of the Japanese Samurai attempts to tell Cruise's character why he is not doing well in the practice fighting during his sword training. He says "too many mind." He tells the American that he has mind on sword, opponent, and people watching. He says "No mind!" This means no distractions, no emotion, no intent to attack, and no forethought on what your opponent might do, or how you will respond.


It is likely that what you observed in your instructor's demeanor, and facial expression (or lack thereof) was evidence that he had prepared his mind for Mushin No Shin to occur. An opponent can sometimes sense this is happening, as you did when facing your instructor. However, this has little to do with "power," and more to do with the un-obstructed, subconscious performance with complete synchronized harmony between the body, mind, and spirit. While the moments preceding the event are often crucial to preparing the mind, the actual existence of Mushin No Shin will only manifest during the action which follows. The clear mind can be disturbed, and the state of Mushin No Shin lost during the moment of activity.

In modern times, people might describe this experience as being "in the zone," or "in the flow" of things. A person performing a task, responding to an attack, or playing a sport experiences a purely sublime feeling, knowing that their action was dead on perfect without any conscious effort or forethought. In contrast, you are probably familiar with the phrase "to choke under pressure." This is typically the exact opposite of Mushin No Shin. The conscious mind takes over, and too much thought of preparation, fear of failure, or other distractions causes a person to not be able to properly perform something they have done thousands of times before.

As mentioned in Wikipedia's definition, Mushin No Shin is experienced in forms practice also, but I disagree in their statement that this is "particularly in Japanese Martial Arts." It is my experience that all genuine variations of the Martial Art which understands and teaches Mushin No Shin will extend it to other areas (including forms, sparring, and board breaking). In other countries, it may have been labeled differently, but the Japanese term has become very well-known.

Also, I want to point out that, while skills such as "Mushin No Shin" were often a part of Zen training, and connected to Eastern Buddhism, the technique itself is a natural skill common among all humans, and is not directly, or inherently related to any religious doctrine. Therefore, it should be understood that the practice of a "clear mind for ideal action," under any name, does not constitute the practice of buddhism, or the worshiping of any other diety. If you believe in God, for instance, then it should be understood that God created the human brain, and the talents by which we can use that God given gift perfectly, and naturally.

CM D.J. Eisenhart


My understanding is that mushin is a level of awareness and detachment. You're not thinking, not expecting, not caring -- but completely aware and acting completely under control at the same time. Something happens, and you respond correctly, smoothly, intentionally -- but you haven't planned it and you don't do it in a consciously planned manner.

Confused yet? :D It's a really hard concept to understand -- but unmistakable when you see and experience it.


I took all afternoon to ponder this Mushin thing. Above, I highlighted what many other posters had to say going back some 6 years. If someone has a different take, or can enlighten me, it would be greatly appreciated, by me, and I would think many others.......

[seasoned]

The best kept secret in all martial arts?
Were we all taught wrong?
Are there some that don't feel there is such a thing call Mushin, that even exists?
Could it be part of our martial training but called something else?
Is it more prevalent in some arts, and and no where to be found in others?
Is it a lost concept from days of old?

Are the more modern arts being cheated out of a training tool, because no one has a clear answer?
I gave my best shot above, and my training goes back many years. Hate to beat a dead "thread" , but, can someone add a different slant to the above thinking?
Check out the video below, that I found on youtube. Is this the Mushin (no mind) that some have felt in training?

As a side note, happy MOTHERS DAY to all the moms on MT.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpOWh97I9tQ&feature=player_detailpage

[Chris Parker]

Hey Wes,

I've cut this down to only your highlighted sections to go through it, but I'm not sure how much help this will be.... that said, there are some things that can be cleared up from your selection.


That's doing not doing.
That's mushin......not some mystical thing that takes years to master.

Hmm, I'm not sure that BlackCatBonz really got any part of it, honestly.... cause that ain't mushin, that's just doing things mindlessly. That's the thing with mushin, while it's an absence of thought, it's not mindlessness. It's deliberate. And it does take years to master. I'll let you know when I'm halfway there....


mushin is neither flowing or forgetful, open or closed, black or white.
it is all of those things and none of them at the same time.

Uh, again, nope. It is flowing, and it is open (to any and all information coming in). Again, I don't think he had much idea.


I've had an example of mushin described to me as doing a kata that you know well and losing yourself in the kata... you finish, knowing that you performed it well, but with no memory whatsoever of the individual moves. I have also experienced this once in competition.

Hmm, I've heard that explanation, and honestly it strikes me as an overly simplified explanation, probably given to Westerners, as it's really quite off base as well. Ideally, you want to be aware of what you've done/are doing, so the idea that you don't remember is the opposite of the aim of mushin.

What you want in a state of mushin is that you are more aware, not less. As a result, you are not surprised by anything (which occurs when you are caught thinking about something else, trying to "guess" what's about to happen, and so on)... by avoiding such traps, you remain more aware than at all other times. Not being aware of what you've done is the opposite of mushin.


Mushin is an altered state of mind that many martial artists will experience during their practice sessions, but usually only rarely. One problem is that as soon as you recognize that it is happening, it is gone. What takes years and years of dedicated practice is being able to move between normal consciousness and this state of flowing described by Takuan at will.

Well, mushin is an altered state, so I'll agree with that... mind you, so is daydreaming, so is being asleep, so is being engrossed in a movie. As far as many martial artists experiencing it, that I'm less sure of. The idea of "once you recognize that it is happening, it is gone", again, no, not necessarily. As you can (and should) train specifically for attaining a mushin mindset, you need (when training it) to be aware of it and maintain it. Again, I don't think that Nomad here got what Takuan Soto was meaning.


Mushin is a calm awareness and centeredness. Not saying that those moments when things just come together and you don't know how or what happens aren't great experiences -- but they're almost the opposite of mushin, at least as I understand the usage of the term.

Ah, that's better.


this experience was only the very beginning of mushin. it was the body doing in reflex without thought. it was the reflex of no mind that began to expose the real use of no mind in daily life.

No, it wasn't. It was the beginning of unconscious competence, which is a completely different phenomena.


I know that when I take the thought process out of an activity, it allows me to see more, feel more, hear more.

Okay, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was mushin. Unless you were deliberately focused on removing the extraneous thoughts, and allowing yourself to be open to all incoming information, as well as allowing yourself to "get out of your own way" when action is required.


I have heard of mushin as being a moving meditation. So, in the middle of confusion, one is able to focus by not focusing. One is able to see all without looking, able to hear all without listening, and above all feel through an avenue of a 6th sense.

It's not "moving meditation", but can be used as part of moving meditation. Mushin is a mindset, nothing to do with action or movement whatsoever. I can adopt mushin without any particular movement at all... I've done it sitting down at the front of the class to allow my students to "feel" what I'm talking about. The idea of a sixth sense is more that you just aren't letting your conscious mind get in the way of such messages coming through to you... so while it's certainly a part of it, they are still separate.

Tell you what, here's a physical representation:
16387

In this picture, Musashi is said to be "open on all eight sides"... yet, at the same time, there is no possible opening for attack. There is no aggression, there is no defensive attitude, there is no evasion, there is no outflanking, there isn't even a guard. But there is mushin (or, as Musashi prefered, Heijoshin). If you can see this, you're on the way to understanding mushin.


To me, mushin means to be in the moment, not concerning yourself with what has come before or what comes after. No conscience, no fear, no hope, no anger and so on. It contains lots of sub-strata that are familiar to martial artists, some of which have come out above.

I have sometimes heard that to include that sublimation of the survival of the 'self' that allows the taking of an opening to give victory, even if the outcome is that you lose your life.

Definitely agreed with the first half. That's a big part of what I meant when I was talking about no judgement earlier. With the second part, the sutemi (sacrifice) concept can be part of it, but not necessarily. Again, as with Musashi, there isn't an opening for attack, so there's no sacrifice needed. Sutemi is more to do with having an "all or nothing" approach, and is a big part of strategy for arts that focus on mushin, so the connection is often made.


According to the book it means "mind no mind"...

Not exactly. "Mushin" (無心) refers more literally to "an absence (mu - 無) of present mind/heart (shin - 心)", which is sometimes loosely translated as "mind of no mind" (more realistically that refers to "Mushin no Shin", though).


And his face...changed...it's hard to explain, but all of the wrinkles in his face smoothed out, his eyes assumed something of an empty expression(not vacant, however), and I just had the impression that there would be no way in hell(or heaven) that I would be able to even remotely touch him...
I got the overall impression of...power...power and awareness...
So, is it Mushin?

That might have been... but then again, it could have just been a good act. But that's more the feeling of mushin (and related concepts such as fudoshin).


It would be difficult to answer that.

I believe I have experienced mushin for brief periods of time during training, but I could not tell you if my opponent did.

Ha, they should be able to tell you... the result should be something like described by Jason. Cold.


Better definition of Mushin:

The momentary perfect alignment of mind, body and spirit to purpose.

No, that's quite a bad definition, as it ignores pretty much everything that mushin is about.


PS -- yes. Had it. Amazing experience. Did a lot of work to try to elicit it fomr my students. Didn't see the Tom Cruise movie Las Samurai, until one of my old BB's said they did a good cinemagraphic rep of mushin. They did.

Actually, for my favourite cinematic examples of mushin, I watch The Seven Samurai. Although it's not specifically mentioned (well, it wouldn't be... it didn't need explaining as it does for a Western audience), watch for the attitude displayed by Kambei when he rescues the child from the kidnapper early in the film... or Kyuzo's attitude for his duel. Perfectly done.


As for developing it, try meditation and shugyo.

No. As for developing it, train it. Specifically and deliberately. Meditation can be part of that, but shugyo (travelling/journeying)? Uh.... huh?


Yes, I have experienced it often, and find it easier to achieve the longer I train, and practice it. I hope this statement does not sound arrogant, or like I am bragging, but it is just a fortunate by-product of my training. I don't know if I have a natural ability, a knack for it, or if it is because I was introduced to the concept at an early age, and have practiced it for my entire life. I am sure my students have observed it in my demeanor at various times, as you did with your instructor, but it is really only something that the person experiencing it can know, for sure, when it has occurred.

Personally, I would not disagree with any of the above definitions, or explanations as it is a personal experience that can occur during any action, anytime, anywhere. Many people have it happen during routine activities of the day. Others during the performance of a sport. Golfers, such as Tiger Woods, no doubt has utilized the skill, as well as race car drivers, stunt men, gun-fighters of the old American West, and many more. For the untrained individual, it is more likely to occur when you least expect it, during a repetitious and familiar activity, or in an instant response to a sudden stimulus or urgent situation.

Hmm. To my mind, there's a difference between "being in the zone", which is what is described here, and mushin.


The Wikipedia definition is accurate that it is shortened from "Mushin No Shin" (Mind of No Mind). It means that your conscious mind must be clear of thought, allowing your subconscious to act in perfect response without interference. If you know the best, ideal action in any given situation, you must not "think" about it - - just do it by subconscious reflex.

Again, this is more "being in the zone", not mushin.


He says "No mind!" This means no distractions, no emotion, no intent to attack, and no forethought on what your opponent might do, or how you will respond.

That's better. We could also use a Star Wars quote from Phantom Menace to the same effect, though...

Obi-Wan: "But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future."
Qui-Gon: "But not at the expense of the moment, young padawan. Be mindful of the living force."

Says the same thing, really, and in both cases it's not the whole story by a fair stretch.


My understanding is that mushin is a level of awareness and detachment. You're not thinking, not expecting, not caring -- but completely aware and acting completely under control at the same time. Something happens, and you respond correctly, smoothly, intentionally -- but you haven't planned it and you don't do it in a consciously planned manner.

Except that acting isn't required, as it's really all to do with the mindset. Other than that, agreed.


Confused yet? :D It's a really hard concept to understand -- but unmistakable when you see and experience it.

True.


I took all afternoon to ponder this Mushin thing. Above, I highlighted what many other posters had to say going back some 6 years. If someone has a different take, or can enlighten me, it would be greatly appreciated, by me, and I would think many others.......

Hopefully this has helped a bit... although I'm not entirely sure it hasn't just added to the confusion!


The best kept secret in all martial arts?

Ha, not necessarily... but perhaps one of the least properly instructed aspects. In essence, though, the more traditional (old) a system, the more likely there is to be an emphasis on this concept in one form or another.


Were we all taught wrong?

Now that's harder to say... I'd be more inclined to say "taught incompletely", or "taught according to a different emphasis". What is the instruction as pertains to ki/chi? If it's not emphasised, or even present, is that being taught "wrong" as well? How about kiai as anything other than a shout, or a method of breathing?


Are there some that don't feel there is such a thing call Mushin, that even exists?

Certainly. Most commonly Western practitioners of modern systems... although I'd be more likely to think that it's often given little more than lip service, as it's not understood well enough. But by the same token, are there some that feel there isn't such a thing as ki/chi? That it even exists? Again, those who are introduced to it often and early are more likely to be accepting of such concepts, if it's only given lip service, or not mentioned at all, many martial artists will deny things outside of their own experience... in other words, if they haven't needed it til now, and they're "powerful, skilled martial artists", then anyone talking about it being necessary must be compensating for something....


Could it be part of our martial training but called something else?

There are a range of related concepts, such as fudoshin (immovable mind) and heijoshin (peace through a constant mind/spirit), but mushin is pretty much it's own term with a specific meaning, so no, if it's not referred to as mushin, odds are it's just not the same thing. It's probably an imitation of it, honestly.


Is it more prevalent in some arts, and and no where to be found in others?

It's more prevalent in arts (and cultures) steeped in Buddhism. There are similar ideas found in Western systems, but the specifics come from Zen Buddhism.


Is it a lost concept from days of old?

Lost? Not in the slightest! It's just not present in all systems teachings, that's all.


Are the more modern arts being cheated out of a training tool, because no one has a clear answer?

That's really a personal, subjective opinion. Personally, I feel it is a necessary part of martial study, but then again it's a big part of the arts I study.


I gave my best shot above, and my training goes back many years. Hate to beat a dead "thread" , but, can someone add a different slant to the above thinking?

That's the thing. Mushin is experienced, not explained. So we can really only go so far in this medium... pointing to examples and illustrations, removing things that aren't, rather than giving absolute definitions of what is.


Check out the video below, that I found on youtube. Is this the Mushin (no mind) that some have felt in training?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpOWh97I9tQ&feature=player_detailpage

Not entirely, no. The concept of mushin within Zen Buddhism is a bit different to that of martial traditions, although highly related.

Within Zen, it's more about detachment from external influence and distraction, whereas in martial arts it's about being open to what's real over what isn't.

Hmm, maybe that isn't too clear....

[seasoned]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13917&d=1238943153 (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=89&attachmentid=13916)

Chris, thank you very much for your detailed response. As it is Mothers day, and I am lucky to still have mine with me (94) years young, I am heading over to see her. I will respond later today.

Also, have a read above and tell me (the thread), what you think, and is it pertinent to our conversation. :)

[seasoned]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16387&d=1336914176

Chris, this illustration above, along with the word "Heijoshin" (presence of mind), and the break down of the word, "Heijo" (ordinary, usual, normal), and "Shin" (mind or heart) brought me back to my white belt days. It was then that it was touched upon lightly, but not reinforced. Once I physical became much better, it took the place of the meaning of Mushin. Also, Shikai (4 states of mind) surprise, fear, doubt, and confusion, was a good read. So a final interpretation could be "keeping your state of mind all the time/ in all situations.


Clarification, along with redirection of thought, has given me the enlightenment I asked for in a previous post. Thanks....

[jks9199]

My understanding is that mushin is a level of awareness and detachment. You're not thinking, not expecting, not caring -- but completely aware and acting completely under control at the same time. Something happens, and you respond correctly, smoothly, intentionally -- but you haven't planned it and you don't do it in a consciously planned manner.

Except that acting isn't required, as it's really all to do with the mindset. Other than that, agreed.


Just a small clarification -- I used acting as in "taking action", not "portraying." So I was trying to say something more like "just doing."

[Chris Parker]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13917&d=1238943153 (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=89&attachmentid=13916)

Chris, thank you very much for your detailed response. As it is Mothers day, and I am lucky to still have mine with me (94) years young, I am heading over to see her. I will respond later today.

Also, have a read above and tell me (the thread), what you think, and is it pertinent to our conversation. :)

Ah, that I like! And Happy Mothers Day to your mother, as well.


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16387&d=1336914176

Chris, this illustration above, along with the word "Heijoshin" (presence of mind), and the break down of the word, "Heijo" (ordinary, usual, normal), and "Shin" (mind or heart) brought me back to my white belt days. It was then that it was touched upon lightly, but not reinforced. Once I physical became much better, it took the place of the meaning of Mushin. Also, Shikai (4 states of mind) surprise, fear, doubt, and confusion, was a good read. So a final interpretation could be "keeping your state of mind all the time/ in all situations.


Clarification, along with redirection of thought, has given me the enlightenment I asked for in a previous post. Thanks....

Well, Musashi taught that your combat stance should be your everyday stance, your combat mindset should be your everyday mindset, so the idea of Heijoshin meaning "ordinary" mind fits quite nicely. It's interesting that something considered such a fundamental, essential part of Japanese martial training is only given a light touch early on in many cases, but I suppose the emphasis is always suited to the context and audience. Hmm.

Glad to help, such as I could.


Just a small clarification -- I used acting as in "taking action", not "portraying." So I was trying to say something more like "just doing."

Yeah, I got that. And I'd still say it's not essential ("just doing"), as action isn't a necessary component. More realistically, action (correct action) is enabled through the mindset, more than being an expression of it. Similar to the tale of the tiger above.

[seasoned]

Great interaction, Chris, with much to consider. It's funny how the most fundamental things can seem so far reached. Have a great day. Wes