There has been a lot of discussion regarding kata lately, and how the practice of kata relates to martial arts practice. Due to this discussion, there have been a lot of conflicting comments, however most of them have been pretty constructive.

Since I (for one) come here to contribute and make the martial arts community less defensive and more beneficial for all, perhaps we could/should discuss the issue of changing kata movements (whatever the reason may be).

I (for one) do not believe that forms should be tampered with. I say this not beause I have a religious attitude toward them and feel they are sacred, but because they were designed to be a certain way for a certain reason. Whether the form is ancient or modern, the creator of the form had a reason behind making movements just so. If he/she didn't, then there would be plenty of play in how you could perform the movements (and would then be pretty much open to do whatever you wanted). There are techniques in the shadow-boxing movements of kata that are able to be applied because of this requirement for the body to be positioned "just so." Changing those positions changes the application(s) present, and in many cases causes the original combative utility of the movement to be nullified entirely. I have recently been shown a set of movements from an Isshin-ryu kata that performed one way result in a devastating set of strikes against an overhead attack, and performed in a modified way (as is done in another Isshin-ryu school) they result in the defender getting popped in the melon...

So what are your thoughts? While some kata are well known and practiced by many, what do you think about the how and why regarding the variations in their practice? Did the instructor learn the form improperly or incompletely, or did he have an epiphany and change it because of having achieved a higher level of skill and understanding?

And remember, play nice...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

In Yiliquan, we have eight forms that are the foundation of our strategic implementation of technique. We call them the Eight Shapes (Earth, Heaven, Water, Wood, Metal, Still/Mountain, Fire, Wind), and each has a different set of footwork and techniques that are most representative of each shape. The purpose/goal of training the Eight Shapes is to achieve the "Ninth Shape," where the methods, footwork and variations of technique blend and are no longer simply Earth or Heaven shape, but have become something seamless and blended...

Anyway.

In each form, there is a certain way in which a technique is performed. For example, in Heaven Shape, the first technique is a simultaneous Palm Sweep Block and a Reverse Punch. The punch can be changed into a number of techniques easily (e.g. palm heel strikes, other open palm thrusting type strikes, etc.), and the form is intended to accomodate such variation. However, the method of stepping in Heaven Shape is always forward. So in this form, it is intended for the individual student to occassionally change the strike in order to create new combinations and applications, but the footwork remains as it is.

So when I teach Heaven Shape, it should always be taught with the Reverse Punch as the main strike. Because I prefer a spearhand or digital strike instead means nothing. It remains a punch because the "reference book" is simply providing an example of a thrusting technique. Variations can be applied later.

Gambarimasu.

This is an example of when to change and when not to.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1




I (for one) do not believe that forms should be tampered with. I say this not beause I have a religious attitude toward them and feel they are sacred, but because they were designed to be a certain way for a certain reason. Whether the form is ancient or modern, the creator of the form had a reason behind making movements just so. If he/she didn't, then there would be plenty of play in how you could perform the movements (and would then be pretty much open to do whatever you wanted). There are techniques in the shadow-boxing movements of kata that are able to be applied because of this requirement for the body to be positioned "just so." Changing those positions changes the application(s) present, and in many cases causes the original combative utility of the movement to be nullified entirely. I have recently been shown a set of movements from an Isshin-ryu kata that performed one way result in a devastating set of strikes against an overhead attack, and performed in a modified way (as is done in another Isshin-ryu school) they result in the defender getting popped in the melon...

So what are your thoughts? While some kata are well known and practiced by many, what do you think about the how and why regarding the variations in their practice? Did the instructor learn the form improperly or incompletely, or did he have an epiphany and change it because of having achieved a higher level of skill and understanding?




Good thoughts on kata.
Why are some different than others?

some of it has to do with the people that were being taught.

Funakoshi states in one of his books that one time when he was learning a kata his teacher (forgot the name) said to him that he didn't teach that kata to many people and he even taught it the wrong way to one person he didn't really care for.

What a drag for the guy that got the "wrong" version.

Changing the kata is not good. Why fix it unless it is broken.....right?

Changing the way you think about the application of particular piece of the kata is OK.........in fact I sometimes encourage it.

There is more than one way to do an application from any one move in the kata. That does not mean that any old thing you can pull out of your hat is correct.
It must comply with certain criteria to be a valid technique.

1) Does it work on anyone regardless of size. If a person has to be of a certain build to make it work then it is not a valid technique.

2) Is it practical............meaning do I have to do a lot of jumping and hoping around to get it to stick.

3) What is the foot work that goes with it. As we have seen on certain mpegs in the past many folks forget their feet are just, if not more, important than their hands.

My perception of kata is as follows:

Different styles have different perceptions of kata. Traditional Okinawan Kempo forms are a reference tool. As was stated previously, the creator of the kata made them a certain way for a reason. They exist to hit certain pressure points and the like in a certain sequence (judging from what I've read, these interpretations can differ dependent on time of day, stature of opponent, etc.) using the same sequence. So these kata are crystallizations and should not be tampered with.

Other styles kata may only have one interpretation. Thusly, certain techniques within won't work depending on situational modifiers....so adapt, dagnabbit! Maybe these kata shouldn't be modified at their root, but we can talk about modifying the movements within to suit our purposes dependent on situation.

Where's the rest of this thread????

Originally posted by chufeng

Where's the rest of this thread????

How do you mean this?

Nevermind,

I realize that the thread I was looking for is under Chines Martial Arts-General Topics...I got confused when I accessed it here...

:idea:
chufeng

I guess to answer your question if it is a reference book, or evolving tool...............I would say both.

Most definitely a reference book as we have seen in this is thread and a few others.

It's also an evolving tool since no attack is done the same way you can't have a "canned" technique and therefore it must evolve as the attack evolves.
Let's take a very basic example:
If I say this technique is for a right punch and you should strike this place on the arm, ...... it kind of limits my options doesn't it..........because what if he doesn't punch you that way........what if he does a left punch?
You have to adjust the technique for that variable. ......I don't mean a mirror image of the other technique for the right punch.

When I was younger I thought the kata should be cast in bronze and never touched or tampered with. But then I was only looking at the surface form, the physical movements and what I thought I was doing when I did them.
Now I understand that the kata have been left to us so that we may come to understand (through constent practise) the same things our fore fathers understood. Things about balance, timing, breathing, moving, entering etc, etc. So I would say that change in kata is okay, but let me first explain what I mean by change.
My kata have changed over the past three decades because my body has changed and my understanding of karatedo has changed also. My experience is now far greater than the early 1970's and so of course I see the same things I was looking at then, with new eyes. New light through old windows as one of my favorite singers says.
This kind of change is okay in my book, In fact it's necessary if I ever want to understand the deeper meaning encoded within the form.
However, I don't believe it's okay to change the form just because I'm haveing a problem with it, or I like high kicks and can do them well. This is not right as far as I'm concerned.
As with the rest of my training, I'm trying to capture a 'feeling' not just remember a move. So for me the kata I teach will always remain the same as the kata I was taught, however the kata I train in for my self (the same kata by the way) will ,I hope, allways be in a state of progressive change.

Mike Clarke.

Mike,

Good to see you here! Look forward to seeing more of your posts.

Your right kata does change.....it SHOULD change the more you do it.............it should get better!;)


I know when I was first learning the kata I know now I was just copying my teacher, I was not "feeling" the kata. I know it sounds kind of "arty-farty" but the more I do a kata the more I become "one" with it. It's one of those you can't explain to anyone else they just have to go experience it themselves.

Thats the trouble with the deeper meanings found in the martial arts, they all seem a bit "Arty-Farty".

I hope, as I get older I get more arty than farty though:p

Thanks for the welcome.

Mike Clarke.

Originally posted by Mike Clarke

Thats the trouble with the deeper meanings found in the martial arts, they all seem a bit "Arty-Farty".




Another problem I notice is the difficulty in explaining certain concepts and "events" that happen the deeper I go into training..........some things just have to be felt........

Putting my sense of humour (that's what I call it anyway) to one side for a moment. The deeper feelings and experiences that are there to be discovered in the martial arts are indeed very hard to explain.
Experience is (I believe) the only way to gain an understanding of something as appossed the knowing about it. The two are not the same thing at all. This is why we have michi on the end of the training we do, asit implies a life long search for some undersatnding. Though I notice that it is never used as much when refering to karatedo, as it is with judo, aikido, kendo etc, and perhaps this says something about the kind of people you find involved in the various arts?
But I agree, the finding of these 'feelings' are hard enough, but the verbal explinations are just about impossible.

Mike Clarke.

Originally posted by Mike Clarke

Putting my sense of humour (that's what I call it anyway) to one side for a moment. The deeper feelings and experiences that are there to be discovered in the martial arts are indeed very hard to explain.
Experience is (I believe) the only way to gain an understanding of something as appossed the knowing about it. The two are not the same thing at all.

I agree.
I played sort of a mean trick on my student once by asking him a trick question, it was actually the same question my teacher asked me once so I didn't feel too bad. He was asking me to teach him another kata and I can understand why. This guy could learn most kata in a day or two. I asked him which kata he knew. He listed off about 5 or 6. I said "OK, show me this kata", he did it. Then I said "OK, show me the meaning of this part of the kata" he did it. Then I said "I am going to attack you, defend yourself" .......he didn't defend himself even though I attacked in the exact same way as his bunkai demonstration called for. I said to him "I thought you said you know that kata......."
The point I was making was you are never done learning, even when you think you "know" something there is always more to learn and "understand".
To be honest I "understand" very few techniques as well as I would like........I "know" where many are in the kata but I only teach the ones I feel I "understand" and can actually do.

Your right about never being done learning.
Over the tokunoma in my dojo I have the two pieces of advice carved into wood.

One says 'Kyu do mu gen', researching the way is endless.

The other says 'Tsu shin gen' The piercing eye of insight.

They are there to remind me, and my students of the scale of this tradition we are involved in, and also the kind of tools we need in order to make progress.

Mike.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



3) What is the foot work that goes with it. As we have seen on certain mpegs in the past many folks forget their feet are just, if not more, important than their hands.

Is the footwork really that important?

Now before you jump on me for asking such a silly question, I was looking at an Isshin Ryu website the other day, and it has some mpegs of the kata Seiuchin, as well as mpegs of applications.

I don't recall the gentlemans name but when he showed the application, which I must say seemed to work really well, he changed the footwork. That is to say, the start of the kata where you turn to your left and bring your hands up then down, when he showed the application for that part he did it against a double wrist grab, and kept facing his opponent.

I tried it with the turn, but got smacked upside the head for my troubles. I found that I had to change the technique to fit the footwork.

--Dave

:asian:

Originally posted by D.Cobb

Is the footwork really that important?

Now before you jump on me for asking such a silly question, I was looking at an Isshin Ryu website the other day, and it has some mpegs of the kata Seiuchin, as well as mpegs of applications.


Dave,

Not a silly question at all. In fact a very good one and I hope I can relay my understanding of footwork in a way that makes sense.
Many people neglect proper footwork in application, I am guilty of it as well. What can I say.......I'm lazy.
When looking at hand technique from kata much of the effectiveness or lack of can be attributed to body positioning.........and we get in proper position by our feet. There are some techniques that use a twist like motion. If only your upper body twists you will lack proper balance for executing the technique and won't get the desired "crank" on whatever it is you are manipulating.
If I am training and having trouble executing a tuite or a strike technique the first thing I look at is where I am in relation to my partners body. I may have him "freeze" for a second while I try and figure out what the heck is going on. Needless to say we can't do this in real life so it is better to get the bugs out before hand. If your out of position it is difficult to execute certain techniques properly, which was my biggest gripe about some of the "neck whacking" mpegs I have seen, and why Dillman & Co. quite often can't get the desired effect........ but "Georgie" thought he knew everything after a couple of lessons...........guess he should have stayed around a bit longer.


Originally posted by D.Cobb

I don't recall the gentlemans name but when he showed the application, which I must say seemed to work really well, he changed the footwork. That is to say, the start of the kata where you turn to your left and bring your hands up then down, when he showed the application for that part he did it against a double wrist grab, and kept facing his opponent.
I tried it with the turn, but got smacked upside the head for my troubles. I found that I had to change the technique to fit the footwork.


Footwork as done in kata is more often than not transitional footwork. I would never fight from Zenkutsu, Kibadachi (Naihanchi dachi) neko ashidachi. All those stances are just a "snapshot" of the footwork that is done during the execution of the technique.

RyuShinKan,

I've come to understand that the kata are there not only to teach us particular methods of attacking and defending etc. But open the mind to possibilities that come from moving in certain ways and at certain times, and to certain places in relation to the attack coming at you.
This being so, should any time be spent trying to make the bunkai 'fit' the move in the kata?
Also, I've come to understand that the better I can blend with the attacker the better I can control them and manipualte the outcome. I've come to beleive that this is what Miyagi sensei was talking about when he used the term Ju. As the effect on the attacker is still powerful, I think I still have Go in my karate too.
Like a bit of ying being in yang and a bit of yang being in yin.
For me the challenge is to find that balance, not to make the move in tha kata fit.

What do you think?

Mike.

And an extra 'G' in Yin too by the looks of it.

What is it sensei Homer says?
Oh ya......"Dhhhooooooooooo"

Mike

Originally posted by Mike Clarke

I've come to understand that the kata are there not only to teach us particular methods of attacking and defending etc. But open the mind to possibilities that come from moving in certain ways and at certain times, and to certain places in relation to the attack coming at you.

Kata not only teaches you bunkai but it also teaches the correct body position and posture to apply the bunkai.
For example I have noticed that when applying certain tuite techniques my students tend to bend over while applying them. However when they do this it not only decreases the effectivness of the technique but makes them more vurnerable to a counter attack.
So I ask them if they bend over while doing that move in the kata......which, if done correctly, they don't by the way.
Another thing that Kata teaches is proper body mechanics and movement. This is really hard to explain even when the person is standing in front of you and that much harder over the Internet, but suffice it to say I am in 100% agreement with your above statement.


Originally posted by Mike Clarke

This being so, should any time be spent trying to make the bunkai 'fit' the move in the kata?

I am not sure.
My teacher has always told us if you do the kata correctly and think correctly while doing the kata the kata will speak to you. (I don't think he means you will hear an actual voice though)
Some people that read this might think it sounds kind of "spiritual artsie fartsie" but I have had it happen to me many times. Some people on hear know me and can testify I am NOT a "spiritual artsie fartsie" kind of guy.
I will be working on a kata for months and trying to "force" the answer from the kata but never get any good results. When I "leave it alone" and just practice some of the answers come out at me like BAM! and then I think "oh of course! It was right in front of my eyes!". After which I will ask my teacher about any discovery and he usually "tweaks" it a bit to make it more effective.
I don't think kata discoveries can be "forced out", I think they have to be nurtured out and then cultivated into reliable techniques.
Kind of like art. You can't sit down and say "Today I am going to make a masterpiece". Great works of art come out of natural expression and can't be forced, so too are martial arts.



Originally posted by Mike Clarke

Also, I've come to understand that the better I can blend with the attacker the better I can control them and manipualte the outcome. I've come to beleive that this is what Miyagi sensei was talking about when he used the term Ju. As the effect on the attacker is still powerful, I think I still have Go in my karate too.
Like a bit of ying being in yang and a bit of yang being in yin.
For me the challenge is to find that balance, not to make the move in tha kata fit.

What do you think?



I think your right.
Bigger stronger people attack smaller or weaker people, weak people don't attack strong people. Using this as a basis for technique your technique should always be to use the attackers strength against them since you won't be able to over power them from head on.

I too have been told that if I do my kata well I'll be able to hear the old masters talking to me. Like you, I don't expect to hear a voice, but I do sometimes get an 'understanding' about something I had not understood before, and this is what I think the "Masters talking to me" comment was refering to?

Like you, and your teacher too it seems, I believe that the understanding must be nurtured out from inside and not transplanted in from outside. The idea that starts you off might well come from someone else? but the understanding and the progress made from that, I think can only come from the inside out.

Which brings me back to a thought I had about something running on two other threads at the moment. the role of the sensei?
Are they there to guide you, to help your find something within yourself? Or are they there to be followed like little gods who know everything about everything?
Perhaps this should be the start of another thread?
Anyway, thanks for your feedback.
Mike.

The teacher is there to point the way and offer guidance...nothing more.

Sometimes the teacher shares past experiences in order to help a student avoid a mistake that the teacher made in his training.

Sometimes a teacher SEES that the student is on the edge of understanding a concept...he may tease out the thread of understanding or may push the student over the edge of understanding...but after doing that, the student is responsible for developing that new insight...

The teacher must NOT take on the role of "know-it-all" and must himself be a student at all times...On the other hand, the student must trust his teacher enough to know that the teacher won't ask him to do something he is incapable of doing...

The incredible influence that a teacher may have must not be abused...significant psychological or emotional damage may result from a break in the trust between teacher and student.

IMHO
:asian:
chufeng

Well since I have been both a student and a teacher I can tell you there is no magic ceremony that makes you all seeing and all knowing when you become a teacher. In fact I have more questions now than before I started teaching. Quite often my students will ask me a question which gives me even more questions.
All I can do is answer their questions by my own personal experiences and ones my teacher has relayed to me.

There are two books I would like to recommend for more information on the "student-teacher" relationship.

One is called "RyuTe® no Michi" by my teacher Taika Oyata. This book is about various aspects of the martial arts not just the "student-teacher" relationship. It does give a lot of insight into how he was taught which I think many people will find rather alarming.

The second is called "The Quest" written by my dojo sempai Kyoshi Steve Stark. This has got to be one of the best sources for what it was like to train with Mr. Oyata when he first came to America back in 1977...... it's pretty funny too.

If anyone wants info on these books please contact me at robertrousselot@hotmail.com

Osu,

Karate is kata, Kata is Karate.

It should be known that secret principles of Goju-Ryu exist in the kata. - Chnjun Miyagi Sensei

There are many reasons kata can be "different" Here are a few.

I know in my style there is the beginner's way of doing a kata, and then there is the more intermediate and then finally the true way the kata is to be done. These things sometimes are very subtle. Simple things as turning a supporting foot before doing a front kick from sanchin dachi, and in the more advanced the foot is turned when you bring the knee up for the kick. Croosing a leg before turning and facing another direction. These are subtle things.

Sometimes students don't stay with their teacher's long enough to derivie the full essencec of a particular kata.

There are also differencecs in the way a younger person and an older person does a kata.

Another reason is the person's own interpretation of the execution of the technique. You can show 10 people the same one and it will be slightly different each time.

I know in Goju it is said that Miyagi Sensei purposely taught people things differently.

One's kata will evolve with time, depending on how much you practice it, and how old you are and what your body can do.

Idealy I don't think kata should be "tampered with". Bunkai on the other hand is the free expression of the kata and you should do with that, and create as many applicaitons as you see fit.

Sometimes the Bunkai can effect the way the kata is done as well.

Every time I bring my Sensei to train with me and my students, My kata changes, it evolves...

Michael C. Byrd
http:/www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

My sensei [the late Miyazato Eiichi, Okinawan goju-ryu] once told me that the kata were there to " Hide" the bunkai.
Now if you think of bunkai as set moves done to set attacks then you miss the point of this. Kata [as far as I understand it] teach principles of movement, breathing, yes even some technique too, although the actual techniques used in a particular kata are not the most important thing about a kata.
Kata give insight in to the 'when' and the 'where'. The 'when' to move [to avoid the incoming force], and the 'where' top move to
[in order to control that force].
In goju-ryu you keep comming up against the same problems of being attacked at particular levels, the different kata allow you to practise different ideas of response to those attacks. The more advanced you become [through understanding, not rank], the more subtle the answers to your attack become.
So the 8th kyu working on their kata, and the godan working on theirs, are both working on the same problems, only the skill [understanding] differs and so provides a different answer to the attack. From the outside this may look like one person is doing 'basic' karate, and the other doing 'advanced' karate. But this too is a mistake as there is no such thing as basic and advanced karate, only people who have a basic or advanced 'understanding' of what it is they are doing.
Kata will always change from person to person [as we are not clones], but the all important "principles" of the system we study should remain intact if we think of ourselves as followers of a particular 'tradition', and hope to have anything of value to hand down to the next generation of budoka.

Regards,
Mike.

Mike,

Nicely stated...

I practice Chinese Boxing and the very same principle applies. (not a big surprise, seeing where Okinawan Karate came from)

I would be MUCH happier if a student were to develop a very deep understanding of one of our forms, rather than a glossing over of many forms...

Once A FORM is mastered, then the lessons can be applied across all of the other forms within the system. So I would like to see a student really focus on one form while learning different strategies in one step and three step drills.

It is no wonder that the old masters would work one form for MANY years before moving to the next...

:asian:
chufeng

Hey Chufeng,

Before WW2, I was told by my late sensei that his teacher,Miyagi Chojun sensei, would only teach his students sanchin, plus one [or two at most] kata.
Sanchin was trainined in by everyone because it contains the core ideas and principles of goju-ryu. It should be noted that there are two versions of the kata taught in goju-ryu, the longer form with the 180 degree turns [commonly known as Higaonna sanchin], and the shorter form [with the backward stepping, a hallmark of all the kata Miyagi sensei had a hand in developing], and this is sometimes called Miyagi sanchin. Some just say "Sanchin dai ichi, or, dai ni" [number 1 or 2].

The point is that Miyagi sensei belived a student could come to understand the system through the study of the core kata, plus one more that suited his character/body/mentality etc.
It was only after the war that he taught the kata in the way they are taught these days. It is said that he did this because he was ill and he felt the system would die out with the knowledge spread out so thinly.

Remember, when he died in October 1953, he had no more than a handfull of students training with him in his backyard. The people in Japan [Yamaguchi sensei etc]had had very limited contact with him, and many of his Okinawan students from before the war did not return after it [including the man being groomed to take over Jin'nin Shinzato sensei who was shot dead during the invasion of Okinawa by American troops].

These days 'more' is often confussed with 'better'. People want to go long, not deep. Form is often a poor second to function and rank is often confussed with skill. So, in such a world as this, is it any wonder we get so lost?
I'm not the only one to be told I'd hear the old masters of the past "talking" to me if I ever did my kata well. So I for one am not trying to climb higher, I'm trying to go deeper.
Trouble is, the deeper I go the darker it gets, and so I have to be real careful when I take the next step. It's easy to get lost.

Hello....Hello........anybody out there?

Mike.

Osu,

Well said gentelmen, this has been a really good thread.

Michael C. Byrd
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

Is anyone putting their money where there mouth is and only teaching their students 2-3 kata? I think some offshoots of Uechi-ryu only teach the original 3 forms Kanbun Uechi had learned plus maybe 2 others.

Everyone talks about the good old days when people learned only two or three kata but is anyone doing it?

Yes and No,

I have a student who's been with me for 1 1/2 years. I've shown him two kata...

I take our combination drills from several different kata, though.

Of course, he doesn't know where I come up with the combinations; he thinks I just make them up...but all of the drills come directly out of our forms...

So, in a sense, he is learning other kata...he just doesn't know it.

My other students are seniors in their own right (they each trained with my teacher several years ago)...they know a number of forms...but they don't really KNOW the forms...

I encourage them to find one they really like and work the snot out of it...

Heck I'm still learning a ton of stuff from the most "basic" from we've got.

:asian:
chufeng

Osu,

I don't know of anyone doing that any longer. (I've thought about doing it) There are fewer and fewer taking the traditional path, I almost think you should try and pass on what you can of an entire system to who ever you can. I think the principle still exists where there are a few kata that are "yours" that you do the best. Other than Sanchin, my 3 favorite are and the ones I really work the hardest on are Shisochin, Seiyunchin, and Sepai, they suit me, I guess. It's not that i don't learn and do my very best to practicee, study, and break down the other's I do, but I hold those 3 special to me.

Look at To'on Ryu almost extinct....very scary.... I've heard it is an amazing style, although I only know of a hand full of people practicing the art.

To'on-Ryu was founded by Juhatsu Kyoda Sensei, a fellow student of Miyagi under Kanryho Higaonna Sensei. (I think there is still a thread on here about it)

Michael C. Byrd
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

Hi all,
Look guys, I'm having a hard time with this.
The fact that we train in one ,two, or fifty kata is not the point. The point is are we studying the kata or just remembering the moves [in order to pass some dumb test!].
If it's the later then I have to say we've lost the plot. But if it's the former than we will have something to hand on to the next generation. In spite of all those who say they are training and teaching a particualar style, many are not, they have other motives for their activities.
Michael has a very good point when he says that he knows more kata than he really holds dear to him. That is not to say he should not pass on the other kata to his students. After all they may find the things he has found in the 3 kata he mentioned, but in other kata?
It's not a question of the "Good old days". These are the good days, the ones we are living right now in the dojo. They are the only days we've got so we better make them good.
Also, Miyagi sensei changed his mind about the amount of kata each person trained in when he felt the system might die out.
And in spite of the amount of people who put do-gi's on today, traditional/classical/othordox [call it what you like] karate is still not out of danger in that regard.
So again, the number of kata is not the issue, nore is the number of bunkai, nore the number of students. The issue is how we apply ourselves to understanding the body of information locked away in the kata of our system. We should not try to go back in time, nore rush forward to invent new methods, but play our part in the slow and steady evolution of our art with honest training and patient exploration.

"The true tradition in great endevours lies not in re-doing what others have done, but in finding the spirit which produced such things and would produce quite different ones in different times."

Paul Valery.

I've held this to be true for many years.
Mike.

Domo Arigato,

Well said we're all fortunate to have a well seasoned practitioner on here as you Sensei Clarke.

Michael C. Byrd
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

Oh shucks:p

Thank you Michael, but you know the best thing. There are people on here who leave me standing!

Cheers!
Mike.

I think that the various forms are textbooks for a given system. If you change them, you actually change the words/phrases in the original book...
It would be akin to changing Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue" in several spots because it's too difficult to play or because one just likes a little change in the melody. But if that is done, you no longer have "Rhapsody in Blue."

The reason we practice the forms are several, but chief among them is the constant striving for perfection of the form. In this way, we strive to perfect ourselves (through our art) as much as possible.

A given movement may be very difficult to perform or hard to understand, but the striving for perfection is the important thing. We train harder and harder to get the movements down just so. We study harder so as to understand the meaning(s) of the movements...constantly striving towards perfection and finding that the opponent is not really "out there."

I think it was old W.S. who said, " A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." [or something like that ?].

Anyway, I'm not sure kata should not change in external form and shape over the years? [mine have over the past three decades]. It's why the changes happen that counts? But I'm still trying to make wonderful music with them, so it may not be Phapsody in Blue? but I was only ever trying to capture 'my' feeling through 'my' understanding. I was never trying to compare 'my' music to George Gershwin's.

I agree with the last post, but it's not our job to just repeat what has gone before [that would make our art stale], we should be striving to impove ourselves and in doing so improve our art.

It's not change in kata that kills it's value, but the reason behind 'why' some people make those changes?

Mike.

Mike -

Knowing you are a friend of RyuShiKan (who is also my friend, and has shown me a glimpse of Ryu Te), and being a student of Yilisifu, I know we are all really speaking about the same thing. We are playing a game of pin the tail on the donkey with words in relation to a subject that has only one understanding but many ways in which it can be expressed.

Kata are both blueprints for the understanding of and training in techniques both obvious (i.e. block and punch is simply a block and punch) and "hidden" or "concealed" (i.e. block and punch is actually a joint lock, or some other non-block-and-punch technique). It is the training in one or several kata that allows us to understand that a) if the form says step and punch we step and punch, or b) just because the form says step and punch does not imply we are limited to only step and punch.

As for the musical analogy, we certainly would never deign to tamper with what the past masters had composed, however there is nothing inherently wrong with adding our own style of play to the way the music comes out... I wouldn't change a note of anything Mozart wrote, but since I am not Mozart, I will certainly play it the only way I know how - my way. Maybe it will never sound as good as if it were played by Mozart, but in time if I play it often enough to know the keys by instinct rather than playing by sight, I can make the music my own...

It is nice to know that there are still plenty of people out there that think the same way my teachers and I think in regards to kata and bunkai. With the flood of lower quality instruction in the minimalls and such, sometimes I start to wonder if what we do is dying out or not...

Gambarimasu.

Hi Matt,

You're correct about the tail on the donkey, and yes it's nice to know "We are not alone." It can feel like that sometimes when you see what goes on around us.

I guess our martial arts [like life] are what we make them, and what we make them will have something to do with how we understand them. Every now and then I hear an echo from long ago saying, "There are no short cuts in karate." and as each year passes I come to understand that on different levels.

I guess we could ask the question, "How do we keep our kata the same over thirty years?" If there is anyone out there that has managed it I'd love to hear from them.

I once interviewed Sugano sensei from Aikido [New York Aikikai], and he told me his waza is different every single time he does it.
He was an uchi-deshi [live in student] of Ueshiba sensei and told me that he learnt this from him. It wasn't the physical actions of the waza he was teaching, but the 'feelings' that made such movements work. As he told me, "He was searching for something with aikido, and so am I. If aikido was fixed I might have mastered it many years ago, then what would be the point of continuing?"

I guess I feel the same way about goju-ryu.
Nice to get a handle on other peoples thoughts though.

Mike.

Mike,

Of course the kata change...
To steal a line from "Circle of Iron:"

"You can't step on the same piece of water twice."

Each time you read from scripture (regardless of your religion or what scripture you read) there is something NEW...but the words haven't changed.

Kata is like that...the words (movements within the kata) must be passed down, intact...each person who immerses himself in the discipline of Karate or Ch'uan Fa must find the meaning of it himself...and no two martial artists will ever do the same kata, just as you will never do the kata the same way twice...

Will I develop my own kata...maybe...(but don't hold your breath).
Will I change the forms my teacher taught me? Of course AND No Way !!! The way I do a form will always change...but, I will pass on the form as I learned it from Sifu...

And since you are a "traditionalist," I guess that makes you an old fuddy-duddy...that's what one of my students in Hawaii called me...I still train, he doesn't.

Great comments above.

:asian:
chufeng

Blessed are the Fuddy- Duddys, for they shall inherit the earth!

WEll.........I hope so anyway:D

Mike.

Karate people,

If you like watching a TKD guy (me) take his lumps, on this very subject, look at the "TKD" Won-Hyo Technical Question thread. It's kind of amusing if nothing else. I think they are taking donations for feathers and tar.

respectfully,
white belt

Ah White Belt, I tell you where to go to see more of forms interpretation and this is the thanks I get. You still don't seem to get the point that because there is no "written in stone" law of application, then almost all interpretation is valid - even the boring ones offered up by the unimaginative.It's like a math problem where there is no right answer, but some defiantly seem to make more sense than others.

Fissure,

I am old and stubborn with an irritating sense of humor, but, I do appreciate and respect a man with patience. If more people were patient like you no one would need self defense.

A question if you would. What is the best way to learn to defend against a rear naked choke?

white belt

The best way to LEARN how to defend against a rear naked choke is to have someone put it on you and work through the techniques you were taught...work on variations that fit your body type...take certain movements out of kata and work with those.

Training for real situations requires realistic training...

Hint: Make your move before the choke is fully applied.

:asian:
chufeng

Chufeng,

Thanks I agree. I was hoping to hear from Fissure and get his take too. Do you guys think rear naked chokes are less or more common attacks / fight starters than arm / wrist grabs?

white belt

I think a rear choke is much more likely to be used as an attack as it has a definite purpose, that is to injure and incapacitate. A wrist grab is unlikely to be applied by one grown man to another IMO. It implies the desire to intimidate and control rather than injure. It leaves the would be assailant open to numerous counters.
As to the defense of said choke. Chufeng beat me to the punch. If it is applied correctly and already "sunk in," desperation is a word that springs too mind! If it is in the process of being applied, your options are open. My Kempo friends like the wonderful world of instep stomps and hammer fist attacks to soft dangling parts. A former Korean GM loved Yudo (Judo) and liked to use various hip and shoulder throws.Personnaly, I like to manipulate the most extended limb in various positions until I can drive my fist into something that will hurt a whole lot.
I hate to agree with people too much just on principle, but again Chufeng's statement of matching size/streght with tech. comes into play a great deal. I recall a discussion with one of the administrators on the difficulty of relating to students with vastly different body types that your own.

If more people were patient like you no one would need self defense.

There is a thin line between humor and sarcasm. I'm still not sure which side of that line you intent to be.:EG:

Most common attack?

Not a rear choke or a wrist grab I'm afraid...

Sucker punch or shoving match which degenerates into a wrestling match (where you may then find yourself in a rear choke) are probably most common.

:asian:
chufeng

I think he meant wich would be the most common between those two specifically....but I could be wrong.

No sarcasm intended. Patience is more rare these days is all. Alot of people have a "right now" attitude and also "it's this way or your a BLASPHEMER!!!" atitude. Reminds me of the different factions running around in Monty Python's movie "The Life of Brian". If you haven't seen that movie, there is one funny scene where the Judean People's Front is discussing the drawbacks of the People's Front of Judea while watching gladiator fights in a coliseum. Pretty funny.

You knew where I was going with the question. Yes, I was looking at the two specific attacks mentioned. I have seen some arm grabs by aggressors (hillbillys) trying to go into a "come along" type hold. 20 years ago, I had one drunk grab my left wrist as I had my open hands up in a defensive posture. He shoved his way in my door because he did not like my choice of bottle rockets launched from my third floor balcony. Apparently he couldn't watch Oprah in peace or something. I was lucky that night and he was not fortunately. The two officers that came got rather impatient trying to get him to wake up from under my dining room table. I did not use Won-Hyo of course, but, I did use a move from the system I was studying at the time. I have been fortunate not to have a rear naked choke attack. I'd like to keep that in the Do Jang myself. My common experience is not the same as others is the reminder I am getting from this conversation. Maybe that lends to the multiple interpretations concept of kata / hyung?

white belt