Naihanchi Shodan Bunkai Exchange [Archive]

Sensei Mike

09-15-2002, 11:42 PM

understand that bunkai is NOT static....
I am not sure of the point you are trying to make here. Of course bunkai is not static. This is abundantly obvious in the very purpose of the thread, an exchange of different bunkai for a particular kata. I indicated, in fact, that I have extensive bunkai for Naihanchi Shodan. I have. It includes perhaps 15 standing combinations all with takedowns directly from the sequential movements of the kata. I use the term "standing combinations" because I have also done extensive analysis of many movements for applications in ground fighting.

I fully recognize that there could be a hundred or more applications. I am familiar with the ideas of Oyata and Dillman, and concepts practiced in Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, Shobayashi Shorin Ryu, Kobayashi Shorin Ryu, Shito Ryu and Shotokan. The ideas I teach are almost all my own, although I do provide attribution for those few in my repertoire that I did not develop myself.

I have developed nearly 200 bunkai combinations across a wide spectrum of Okinawan kata, all with takedowns directly from the sequential movements of the kata. The bulk of my efforts has been the development of a complete set of bunkai for the Pinans, Bassai dai, Naihanchi, Kuskanku Dai, Seinchin and Seipei. But I have interpretations for a large number of movements in the 50+ kata found in the Shito Ryu system. Again, they are all virtually all my own. Of course I draw extensively of grappling and locking techniques found in many systems. However what I teach are my combinations of blocking, countering, locking, takedowns and finishes which are based exclusively on kata movements.

My framework emphasizes the use of turns and pivots to develop power for blocks, counters, locks, and takedowns. The counters emphasize near simultaneous responses combined with initial evasions and blocks. Some of the combinations include several counters, which may be needed for defending against a large powerful opponent. For example in the sixth direction of the Pinan Shodan, I have a defense that includes: a snap of the neck for a takedown, a kick to the groin, a backfist to the temple, an elbow to the neck, a strike to the neck, a strike to the biceps, and a trap of the arm. Each technique sets up the next. The assumption is that some might miss, or some counter won't work for some reason or another. In combat nothing is certain.

For Pinan Shodan alone, I have developed well over 60 combinations, all with takedowns. Again, these are all directly from the sequential movement of the kata. The embusen of Pinan Shodan has nine directions. Obviously, the combinations in the kata must be effective against a variety of attacks in order for nine directions to translate into over 60 applications. Where I teach and train, we practice these movements against attackers coming from all directions, with a variety of attacks. (For hand attacks, we use boxing type jabs hooks and crosses, in addition to the traditional karate seiken and gyaku tsuki.)

I just today discovered this forum, and it looked like it might be a fruitful place to share some of the ideas I have developed. It seemed reasonable, based on the unstructured nature of an Internet thread, to initially direct the discussion a bit more, and therefore, for starters, I asked to discuss a limited, directional series of movements in the kata. I called it a combination. I believe the discussion of specific movements can be more beneficial than to have one person discuss one combination and someone else another.

In starting this thread, I merely asked did anyone want to offer an application.

For this, I received two interesting types of responses. First I am reminded that I have omitted a hand motion found in some systems, but not others, which may or may not be integral to the combination I have described. (The initial series of movements to the right). Another response makes the startling revelation that applications for this initial movement are many and painful. But of course not one is to be shared on the Internet.

My offer still stands.

I am seeking anyone who would like to engage in an exchange of bunkai for Naihanchi Shodan. Let me reclarify the "combination". I am interested, initially, in discussing combinations that include the first left step, the first big right hand movement to the right and the left elbow immediately following. It can include any number of preceding movements as well as any number of following movements. My preference is for limited oyo movements (added, and not found in the kata,) but of course, that is up to the contributor. The problem with oyo, is that there might not be a common reference point, since by definition, the follow-up movements are not found in the kata.

Here is a glimpse of what I can provide. My initial combination in Naihanchi shodan, is most likely my most "involved", in that it has a lot of counters and is not trivial to set up. Against a grab, or grab strike combination, (and from the direct sequential movements of the kata,) my combination includes: a stomp to the neck, a snap of the neck takedown, an elbow to the temple, a strike to the neck, a knee to the face, a lock, and an unbalancing sweep to the knee. As stated above, each technique sets up the following. One, or more, might not work, but the barrage is overwhelming. I trust in Yabu Kentsu's maxim "Karate begins and ends with Naihanchi". This kata allows a smaller defender to respond with overwhelming force.

I find it intriguing that perhaps millions of people have practiced this kata, including many reading this post right now, and have therefore practiced this remarkable combination.

However, for me, it would be a minimum half hour investment to document the details of this initial Naihanchi technique and all its complexities. And that is just the beginning of the kata. That is the purpose of the exchange. I would love to trade ideas. For those willing to engage in this exchange, I would be grateful if you would carefully describe the attack. (please be sure to include location, distance, feet position, movements, etc.) If someone would prefer a discussion in private, please feel free to email me.

-Sensei Mike

chufeng

09-16-2002, 12:09 AM

Fair enough...

You see Mike, the history of this and many other boards has been contentious, at times...although my response may have seemed provoking, it was intended to make the original author think (that would be you). Many times the authors of questions on this forum have little experience and expect to be spoon fed technique...I've even seen someone ask for ideas on HOW he could develop his own system...And, since you obviously have put some thought into the bunkai I am willing to share SOME of the applications in Naihanchi Shodan...but, I can offer no such bunkai for the other katas, since I do not know them, nor have I practiced them...I practice Chinese martial arts...I have been exposed to Naihanchi Shodan, however, and am willing to share. I agree with RyuShiKan, though, that this is NOT a good way to learn technique...because words are too limiting and in most instances, the finer points can only be taught under direction...

:asian:
chufeng

Matt Stone

09-16-2002, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

The ideas I teach are almost all my own, although I do provide attribution for those few in my repertoire that I did not develop myself.

Not to sound like a jerk, but if almost all of your ideas are your own (and by "almost all" I would interpret that to mean 75 - 80% or more), what did your teachers teach you? Either you have gone light years beyond what they knew, or they taught you precious little...

I have developed nearly 200 bunkai combinations across a wide spectrum of Okinawan kata... The bulk of my efforts has been the development of a complete set of bunkai for the Pinans, Bassai dai, Naihanchi, Kuskanku Dai, Seinchin and Seipei. But I have interpretations for a large number of movements in the 50+ kata found in the Shito Ryu system. Again, they are all virtually all my own.

Only 200 combinations for 56 or more forms? I guess either you are overestimating the number of forms, or you miscalculated the number of combinations... 200 divided by 56 only allows for less than 4 per form... ;)

Of course I draw extensively of grappling and locking techniques found in many systems. However what I teach are my combinations of blocking, countering, locking, takedowns and finishes which are based exclusively on kata movements. My framework emphasizes the use of turns and pivots to develop power for blocks, counters, locks, and takedowns. The counters emphasize near simultaneous responses combined with initial evasions and blocks. Some of the combinations include several counters, which may be needed for defending against a large powerful opponent.

Again, not meaning to sound like a jerk, but this makes what you do significantly different from everyone else exactly how? All systems have grappling, locking, striking and kicking techniques and combinations that are similar in some fashion. You can only manipulate the human body so many ways, so inevitably you will "create" a combination that is common to someone else in another style. All styles use simultaneous blocking and striking/kicking/grappling techniques combined with turns and pivots to increase the power of the techniques. All styles use combinations that include several counters in order to ensure success against larger, more powerful opponents. So what you do is different in what particulars?

In combat nothing is certain.

AND

Another response makes the startling revelation that applications for this initial movement are many and painful.

You attempted to make a snide comment about RyuShiKan's comment (i.e. "startling revelation" about the many painful applications inherent in the form), but then proclaim the obvious yourself...? Thanks for the bulletin.

For Pinan Shodan alone, I have developed well over 60 combinations, all with takedowns.

So 60 combinations come from Pinan Shodan, and the other 140 are taken from 55+ other forms? Again, a recalculation is in order here...

I just today discovered this forum, and it looked like it might be a fruitful place to share some of the ideas I have developed. It seemed reasonable, based on the unstructured nature of an Internet thread, to initially direct the discussion a bit more, and therefore, for starters, I asked to discuss a limited, directional series of movements in the kata. I called it a combination. I believe the discussion of specific movements can be more beneficial than to have one person discuss one combination and someone else another... In starting this thread, I merely asked did anyone want to offer an application.

I agree wholeheartedly. However, there are some folks who prefer not to tutor those with little instruction to begin with via the internet. I would say that, in order to better prepare readers for responding to such an inquiry, that you first make a good faith offer of your own information, thus negating the possibility that you are stimied with your own progress and are instead trying to gain information from others to claim as your own... Just a thought.

For this, I received two interesting types of responses. First I am reminded that I have omitted a hand motion found in some systems, but not others, which may or may not be integral to the combination I have described. (The initial series of movements to the right).

I don't see where this is a problem. You solicited information, and the response given simply encouraged expanding the area of consideration as one application used makes use of the opening movements as a lead into the following techniques. Because this movement is not universal in its use as a part of this particular area for breakdown is no reason to imply that such a reminder is offhand... If you don't want it considered, make such limitations starkly clear in your request, or solicit only from those styles who do not make use of it in the series you wish to discuss...

Another response makes the startling revelation that applications for this initial movement are many and painful. But of course not one is to be shared on the Internet.

See comment above, and add the fact that since you are new, and unknown to the regulars, your solicitation may be viewed with caution... Unfortunately, we are all subject to potential sidewards glances until we have made ourselves as well known as possible... The MA community is rife with frauds and rip-offs, and I know that I am leery of being too open with folks I don't know. I have encountered people before who tried to take credit for things I or my teacher had taught them, and so now I keep technical details to myself until trust has been developed between myself and others... Hopefully you can see the validity of this feeling, and not take such behavior too personally.

It can include any number of preceding movements as well as any number of following movements.

So, since you seemed to take offense at the reminder of the opening movements to the kata, are you now open to their inclusion?

-Sensei Mike

I don't presume to speak for anyone here other than myself, but personally (having lived, learned and taught in Japan), those folks I mentioned above that I am leery of dealing with... typically they use (or mis-use) Japanese titles when referring to themselves... It is impolite and improper to refer to one's self by terms such as sensei, shihan, hanshi, renshi, kyoshi (all of which are only used in reference to a teacher in writing, not personal address) or soke (which is a made up title anyway, and not used in Japan to begin with). When I saw your sig, I was not inclined to be too forthcoming with info... Maybe you would want to reconsider your signature to avoid being categorized improperly with those who misunderstand what it is they do... There are folks here who have publicly stated that they don't care whether they use the Japanese language or titles incorrectly or not, but I think such a comment stands on its own as comment on their orientation toward martial arts study...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

RyuShiKan

09-16-2002, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

For this, I received two interesting types of responses. First I am reminded that I have omitted a hand motion found in some systems, but not others, which may or may not be integral to the combination I have described. (The initial series of movements to the right). Another response makes the startling revelation that applications for this initial movement are many and painful. But of course not one is to be shared on the Internet.

Your snide comments and attitude are precisely the reason why I don't share such information on the Internet.

First, I don't know you and you are not my student so quite frankly I am wondering what makes you think I or anyone else should share information with you that we had to pay for with hard work and sweat. Especially now since you have copped an attitude.

Second, I can't tell what kind of person you are (although I am beginning to get a good idea) or anyone else that may happen to read this thread. Karate techniques are basically weapons and I sure as hell would not stick a box full of loaded .45's out in front of my house and say "help yourself and have a good time".
I was taught to have a little more respect and responsibility for I do and who I teach.

Third, techniques should always be felt and the Internet does not make that possible.

Sensei Mike

09-16-2002, 08:36 AM

Broken record,

Would anyone like to exchange bunkai for Naihanchi Shodan. I would like to start at the beginning of the kata and include movements for the first direction to the right. I have well over 15 combinations for this kata that I am willing to invest the time to share in.

I would entertain taking it offline via email. In fact, based on the initial feedback on this forum, it would likely be the best medium to correspond. Here, there are several people that have invested some extensive typing time, but not one iota of bunkai has been described, much less hinted at.

This is an open forum and therefore is open to anyone wanting to say anything. But the start of it remains the same. I am looking for people who are looking to exchange interpretations of a kata. If anyone knows of any other forums that are more geared to the actual exchange of information about the techniques in kata, rather than opinions regarding the difficulty of doing it, or whether a particular movement starts with this movement or that, or criticisms of the person offering to share information, I would be grateful if you would provide these forums to me.

As I noted above, I have an application, for starters, that includes from the direct sequential movements of the kata: a stomp to the neck/head, a snap of the neck takedown, an elbow to the temple, a strike to the neck, a knee to the face, a lock, and an unbalancing sweep to the knee. All against a single opponent launching an attack of a grab or grab strike. This combination is merely my interpretation of the sequence of movements. I have seen many others. My fairly extensive study of a variety of systems has not revealed any else doing this particular combination, nor many others that I have developed.

Again, for those interested in sharing, taking this exchange to email is probably preferable, so please feel free to email me.

-Sensei Mike

Sensei Mike

09-16-2002, 08:45 AM

but, I can offer no such bunkai for the other katas, since I do not know them, nor have I practiced them...I practice Chinese martial arts...I have been exposed to Naihanchi Shodan, however, and am willing to share. I agree with RyuShiKan, though, that this is NOT a good way to learn technique...because words are too limiting and in most instances, the finer points can only be taught under direction...

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I do not mean to minimize the difficulty of describing something complex in text. Nevertheless, I would like to try, and if you are interested in exchanging ideas on Naihanchi Shodan, I would be grateful. I believe that among experienced practicioners that text can be very useful. It would be very difficult to teach a beginner with text because they do not have the proper frame of reference. I teach my interpretations to beginners. I understand the issues.

Would you like to email me. I did see that your email was private. I absolutely commit to not putting you on any distribution lists, etc. as I imagine you, as everyone else, are trying to minimize spam.

Your call.

Interesting that a Chinese stylist practices Naihanchi Shodan. Is this a Chinese variant, or from one of the Okinawan systems.

Thanks again.

-Sensei Mike

DKI Girl

09-16-2002, 09:29 AM

Hi Mike....

I would love to correspond with you on techniques from Naihanchi Shodan. It's very possible that we will end up taking this to private email because of all the bashing that we will receive, but here goes....

I start my Naihanchi with a right closed fist into an open palm then turn it downwards.

Opponent: Grabbing lapels and pulling in.

Options:

1. I am putting my left hand behind the opponents head and pulling in to meet my right fist or forearm. Strike can go to specific points or to a general area.

2. Strike in and down two inches below the belly button on the conception vessel. This will bring opponents head towards you for the strike.

Let's start there and move on after feedback from everyone.

dki girl

Sensei Mike

09-16-2002, 10:19 AM

Not to sound like a jerk, but if almost all of your ideas are your own (and by "almost all" I would interpret that to mean 75 - 80% or more), what did your teachers teach you? Either you have gone light years beyond what they knew, or they taught you precious little

This thread is about the exchange of "interpretations" of kata. I don't know what system(s) of karate you have studied, but if it (they) did include extensive bunkai practice that contained takedowns from the movements in the kata, it (they) would be in the minority of karate systems today. We could go on and on why this is the case, or to what degree this is the case. Fortunately today, there is a wonderful resurgence of ideas coming from many communities.

One source is that many practicioners, myself included, have cross trained in grappling arts and applied common principles found in these arts to the movements in kata. To many of us, we are trying to restore to the kata some purpose other than for rank promotion, or to perform in a tournament. For many who have practiced kata in systems that spend little or no time on repetition and application, the resungence of interpretation is putting the "ti" back in karate.

I explained I have a combination in Pinan Shodan that, starting in the sixth direction, (shuto to a back corner) includes:
a snap of the neck for a takedown, a kick to the groin, a backfist to the temple, an elbow to the neck, a strike to the neck, a strike to the biceps, and a trap of the arm. Each technique sets up the next. In a sense, nobody showed me this. In reality, it comes from Itosu, or an earlier developer of the kata (the early history is not all that clear.) I can say "Itosu taught me" but he died long before I was born.

But I am curious, do you practice a system that includes Pinan Shodan, and if so, have Sensei taught you, or have you considered an application with these counter strikes and kicks? If yes, then perhaps you can appreciate that in the air, against a bag, against many partners, this one combination takes many thousands of repetitions to make useful. There are five counter strikes (and all but the backfist use pivots--tai sabaki--to develop power). There is also a kick (perhaps two), not to mention a block, (also using tai sabaki) as well as a trap. This is a comlicated series of movements, but one that perhaps millions have practiced. It is part of Pinan Shodan.

As Yabu Kentsu stated, you need 10,000 repetitions to make a kata your own. I would say that this combination requires more like 20,000 repetitions.

That is why I stopped creating new interpretations for kata I can never hope to master. Mabuni wanted to preserve all the art he learned in Okinawa and so included over 50 kata in his system. My goals are much more limited. I want to practice and teach a wonderfully effective art of self-defense that brings great benefits physical and psychological benefits along with great self-defense skills.

Out of curiousity, I have looked at some movements here and there for all but a few of the 50 Shito Ryu kata. But I long ago realized that such a large number of kata prohibited the key element of success in any physical activity, especially the martial arts. Repetition. Now I focus on just a few kata, massive repetitions and extensive partner work.

I have done a full analysis of the few kata that I practice and teach: a couple of Pinans, Bassai Dai, Naihanchi shodan and Kusanku Dai. For these kata, I would say that 90+ percent of the nearly 150 combinations I have developed are my own, or better yet, I like to think that they are Itosu's, Matsumura's or some other long dead Okinawan or Chinese master. Of course, the components of the combinations use common principles found in a wide-variety of systems. For what it is worth, it is the takedowns that have been the hardest to figure out. I only develop and teach combinations that have takedowns directly from the sequential movements of the kata (the exception is the groundfighting principles in Naihanchi Shodan. Once you are on the ground, there can be no takedown). To me, I have not fully analyzed a kata until I have combinations that include both responses to different kinds of attacks, as well as takedowns for every "direction" of a kata, again with nothing added outside the direct kata movements.

I am looking to further my knowledge of Naihanchi Shodan and at the same time share some ideas that might be both new and useful to some people. Care to exchange some ideas about Naihanchi Shodan? For example, have you looked at the movements for use in groundfighting?

I too am distrustful of these forums. I did expect to ask a simple question and get noise in response, so this was no big surprise. That is why I did not offer up an idea (a combination) to begin with.

But I am still hopeful that there may be some folks out there that would like to offer an interpretation in exchange for another. And, maybe, just maybe, we could get a bunch of contributors and discuss several aspects of a kata, in a way that lots of people could learn something.

-Sensei Mike

Cthulhu

09-16-2002, 02:10 PM

Sensei Mike,

Please don't let the remarks of a few dissuade you from your desire to share your knowledge and learn from others. If these people do not wish to share what they have to offer, they should simply ignore your requests, and you should feel free to ignore their posts.

This board was designed as a vehicle for information to be shared among martial artists in a friendly manner. Some people have yet to fully appreciate that, and I hope you don't let them deter you from asking others questions on this board.

Cthulhu
-MT Admin.-

DKI Girl

09-16-2002, 03:06 PM

Amen!!! I put out a bunkai for you in my last post....here's another.

From a push, single or double handed.....

Secure their hand onto your chest and turn 90 degrees with a wrist lock, then attack the back of the head with the backhand.

dki girl

Sensei Mike

09-16-2002, 06:43 PM

DKI Girl,

You go girl. We're off. Again, I was kinda' hopin' that someone would offer up an interpretation for the movements to the right, but I am so happy you offered something, two ideas, no less. So it's my turn. Again, this is for the movements to the right. Long post follows.

Against a right handed grab of the right wrist, my interpretation is for a wrist lock, and a simultaneous sweep of the opponent's right knee with the left foot, followed by a right strike to the neck and an left elbow to the temple. This attack is a natural grab, with the thumb of the attacker on the outside (ulna side) of the wrist, and not on the inside.

Some of my many assumptions.

A person has to enter your "space" to initiate the attack. The entering of your "space" implies a step or a shuffle. (which is two steps.) Let's put ourselves in the role of the attacker for a moment. When closing a distance to grab a wrist with your right hand, it is more natural to step in with your right, and not with your left. Most importantly, your reach can be further when your same-side foot is forward, but also you tend to be a bit better balanced. This is not a slow movement. It is an attack. It has to close fast, or the assumption is that you are not going to be there. Therefore, this attack is with a right step in, and a right grab of the right wrist. (If there is no right step, it will work in some, but certainly not all cases.) What this means is that I don't practice this "eyeball to eyeball" with the opponent two feet away, with both of us feet parallel. He has to come at me, because I won't stay in the space if he enters it with both feet parallel.

One last assumption. Since he is coming at you it isn't walking, it is closing, which implies the forward leg will be slightly bent, providing the knee for a target. If the opponent is taller than you, pretty good probability, especially for a woman, then to grab your wrist at your side, the attacker will have to bend a bit to grab it. This all leads to the assumption that there is a target of a forward right leg, slight bent, so you can attack it with your foot.

If both of the defender's (that's your) feet are square to the front, then the attacker would be anywhere from directly ahead to close to 90 degrees to the right. That gives this interpretation a pretty large range of attack. It's a quarter of the potential directions for attack. The further to the right the attacker is, the more an initial clockwise spin would be needed by the defender. This also works well with two attackers in front (one or each to the sides). This defense is against the opponent on the right who closes and grabs your right wrist with his right hand. In the case of two attackers, thus positioned, this becomes a very potent attack. The initial attacker uses (90% probability) his strong hand to immobilize your strong hand (again 90% probability, as southpaws make up 10% or less of the population). This attack frees up the attacker not on your right, to launch an attack without much fear that you will have an effective response with your strong hand.

Now for the response. Again, the attacker's right foot is forward, and your right wrist is grabbed. The wrist lock is executed by grapping the opponent's fingers/hand with your left hand, pinning them to your wrist. We can go into fine points of the hand position later. The most important point is that your hand must keep the attacking hand immobile on your wrist. Don't release it or let it slide.

Your right hand circles to the outside of the opponent's arm wrist to grab. Against a very strong opponent you may need two extra movements, if he is resisting your attempted grab. First, your want to, if necessary, sink down a bit, so that his fingers are near or on your hara (perhaps an inch below the navel). Second, you want to pivot, ever so slightly, clockwise, so you can use the turning power of your body to get the proper leverage and reach. You use your body to grab, not your arms. Finally, and most difficult, is to "swipe" his knee with the arch of your foot. You probably don't have the proper angle for a good stomp. Rather, you just want to slightly weaken the stance because a good part of the attacker's strength is in has stance.

Doing all this together takes a lot of practice and I recommend a lot of partner work. The great aspect of this swipe it is that it can be done very gently with little risk to the knee. It just brushes across the top. Again, it is not designed to drive the knee into the floor. Rather, it is more of a quick smack to the knee to weaken the stance. In reality, you are focused on so much (the grab, the turn, the sweep, not getting hit) that you don't want to worry about generating the power and accuracy needed to make a stomp effective. Here the foot simply brushes through the knee (no more than three inches up the thigh above the kneecap), left to right, but not down, thereby moving it from the attacker's right to the attacker's left. It causes the opponent to turn slightly.

You may not have needed the sweep to begin the wrist lock which requires your right hand to grab his right wrist across the forearm. But if you did, now that you have turned the opponent with your "sweep" and turned yourself enough, so that you are in a position to grab the wrist. Up to now, this should have been one seamless movement.

The next key is to focus on ensuring the opponent's arm stays bent. Throughout the technique the goal is to try to keep the forearm as close to horizontal as possible, and to have the arm itself be bent beyond 90 degrees (an acute angle). The further the bend the better the technique. Just remember that there are a variety of similar wrist locks but that this one needs the elbow bent.

The step after the sweep brings you closer to the opponent, and if the sweep was effective, his center of gravity should have dropped a bit (a couple of inches, perhaps), as the right knee, though it is still supporting him, is now pointed more towards his left. At the exact moment your left foot touches the ground, you execute the lock as follows.

Focus on keeping his arm bent and raise your arms slightly. You have both of your palms down, but the inside of the wrists (the thumbs) are should now be a couple of inches above your hara. Pretend that there is a basketball protruding out in front of you and your hands are wresting on it, close to your abdomen. If you pushed your hands out, but kept them touching the ball, they would proceed away from you in an arc, initially slightly up, and then slightly down. That is the motion you will use. Part of your power comes from your body. Once the left foot plants, the body continues moving towards the center of the opponent, and here that forward movement as used for added leverage on the wrist lock. Again, keep the arm of the opponent bent. If you haven't done this lock before, please exercise caution, as it very painful.

While there are people who are relatively immune to joint locks, for those that are not immune, this is a good one, and it causes a spinal reflex to drop the weight. Because you have just destabilized the stance with the "sweep" to the knee, there is not a good support structure underneath to catch the body, and in many cases, you drive the body down and the right knee to the ground, just with this lock.

Now come the counters. In Shotokan, when the right leg steps out into the next stance, it is first brought high in front. That can be a knee to the head of the opponent. It buys time for the next technique. Perhaps a half second, maybe even up to a second. Many systems use a ridge hand in the following technique. Some others a technique that is more of a knife hand. Some others a back hand. There are plenty of targets, as the neck is now brought down to chest level or lower. With the right hand, find a good target (I use ridge hand to the neck.) Then bring the right hand outside the head, and the left elbow becomes a strike to the temple with the right hand, pushing the target towards the approaching elbow. Use as much pivot as possible on the elbow strike, while staying true to the kata (feet stay parallel). The hips stay pretty much forward, but the torso pivots fully.

Some issues. Once mastered, this technique can be used against the same attack coupled with a left strike after the grab is complete. It does not work for a near simultaneous combination. Rather the grab has to be fully engaged for close to a second. The faster you are, the shorter delay you can deal with. The key problem is that you are stepping, with your left foot, into his attack with his left hand. If you find the strike is too fast for you to complete the lock/sweep, then the left hand, which is right in front, rises for an inward block to deflect the strike. At that point you would be out of this combination, described above, and into another. For example, the ridge hand is next. Upon completing the block, the left hand, prior to pulling back to chamber, would be used to strike the grabbing wrist with a knife hand on the pressure point on the thumb side of the wrist. The right hand is pulling up and out to the right during this strike. This frees the right hand to perform a ridge hand to the neck, followed by a grab of the neck/gi/trapezius and an elbow to the solar plexus. Or you can use your right hand to grab the hair on the top of the head, (if long enough) and execute a supplemental (not found in the kata) right foot to the groin, so that the head will come down with the hair pull so that the elbow can be to the temple.

I will discuss the takedown and finish after someone offers an exchange. I would appreciate any feedback you would provide on this.

CAVEAT.

I put this together quickly and I know I am dyslexic, I generally confuse my right and left, my opponents right and left, and clockwise and counterclockwise. I did a brief check and think everything is okay, but I will check it later, and also field any questions if something doesn't make sense.

-Sensei Mike

chufeng

09-16-2002, 08:18 PM

Wrist lock,
Leg bite,
Focused knuckle strike to XXX point...

End of story.

The specifics are not for public consumption.

:asian:
chufeng

Rob_Broad

09-16-2002, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by Cthulhu

Sensei Mike,

Please don't let the remarks of a few dissuade you from your desire to share your knowledge and learn from others. If these people do not wish to share what they have to offer, they should simply ignore your requests, and you should feel free to ignore their posts.

This board was designed as a vehicle for information to be shared among martial artists in a friendly manner. Some people have yet to fully appreciate that, and I hope you don't let them deter you from asking others questions on this board.

Cthulhu
-MT Admin.-

Amen, it appears that we have a few malcontents that seem to like to disrupt some very fine threads. Just because they do not see things as others do, they have to feel their method is the only way of loking at it. I for one am tired of the attitude of some of the members who have decided to harass members who are looking to exchange knowledge.

If you do find yourself being harrassed by another member please put them on your ignorelist and report them to the moderators, we will then take the appropriate measures to rectify the situation.

Kempojujutsu

09-16-2002, 09:37 PM

The opening movemnent which I tend to call the "praying Hands" this is what I have. Shows how high and how low the hands may go. From eyes to groin level. Second meaning you have grab the attackers hand and applying either one of two locks. Front lock, palm is drove toward the bicep, or Kote gaeshi lock which is front lock with a twist done to the outside of attackers body. The cross step could be acouple of takedowns. First drive knee, sole of foot or leg into the back of their leg. Second throw your leg is in front of theirssweeping the leg backwards like a harai goshi. The next movement say from the side a shoulder grab. The arm out straight is the grab done on you. Excute a vertical lock, also known as Tate', bent elbow lock, S lock. Once you drop him follow up with downward hammer fist strike to several targets, side of nose, temple, cheek, could also be grab of hair or clothing to drive them farther down follow up with another strike.
Bob :asian:
I believe some of this has been said about the wrist locks.

chufeng

09-16-2002, 09:56 PM

Kinda looks like everybody's got the same general idea about this movement...shall we move on?

Or is there more to explore?

:asian:
chufeng

chufeng

09-16-2002, 10:05 PM

My point about bunkai being dynamic, is that no way are you going to be able to explore ALL of the intricacies of an attack...

Gosh it WOULD have worked except he wasn't the 18 inches away that I'm used to...

His angle of attack won't let me do this...

etc., etc.

Without proper instruction AND one on one drills from every angle and distance, you really won't have explored even the most basic bunkai....and then there are the layers of technique within the forms...

Do any of you really expect to convey any REAL sense of what is happening without a tremendously complicated (and probably confusing) post?

I am not trying to be contentious...but reality based...if that makes me an a**hole, so be it...I can live with that.

:asian:
chufeng

RyuShiKan

09-16-2002, 10:07 PM

see below..........

RyuShiKan

09-16-2002, 10:11 PM

One of many applications of Naihanchi 1

chufeng

09-16-2002, 10:13 PM

I suggest any of you who think my posts are irrelavent, or arrogant, or contentious, go back to all of my posts and SEE what I've said...

I suggest that the "attitude" lies somewhere else...

If you think I have nothing worth contributing, then ask me to leave...and take your advice from JudoKid or Carbon, two of your finer contributers.

:asian:
chufeng

RyuShiKan

09-16-2002, 10:21 PM

Since I am a person that believes actions speak louder than words..................To see the actual application of the above technique you can view it at the URL below. Go to the bottom MPEG that is 333kb.
The people in the MPEGs are Peter Polander (former Polish Judo Champion/Kick boxer etc) and Taika Oyata.
(naturally everything on the website is Copyrighted)

URL for our branch dojo in Poland.
http://www.kempo.org.pl/galeria.htm

RyuShiKan

09-16-2002, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by chufeng

I suggest any of you who think my posts are irrelavent, or arrogant, or contentious, go back to all of my posts and SEE what I've said...

I suggest that the "attitude" lies somewhere else...

If you think I have nothing worth contributing, then ask me to leave...and take your advice from JudoKid or Carbon, two of your finer contributers.

:asian:
chufeng

AMEN to that!

Bob Hubbard

09-16-2002, 10:57 PM

A question and a comment:

question:

? - Is Naihanchi shodan bunkai static in the sence that only 1 'organization; has it, or is it a reasonably common technique seen in many similar styles, but with some variations? (newbie question)

Comment:
Attitudes, worth of contribution, etc:
Theres a couple different attitudes showing thru... some are sarcasm, some are anger, some aren't clear to me. I dunno...
RyuShiKan trains extensivly in Japan. His perspective on the Japanese arts is very valuable. He has his right to share or not share as he sees fit within his own 'belief' structure on what is proper in this medium. Yiliquan1 until recently also lived and trained in Japan. Theres a certain perspective to be obtained by going to the root of an art. (2 examples as I know their background the best of those posting in this thread. No offence meant to anyone)

On "irrelavent, or arrogant, or contentious". We get alot of this...what one person calls 'arrogant' another calls 'blunt'. Who is right? I dunno. Maybe everyone is. Chufeng, your input is valuable here, as is everyone elses.

In any case, please keep this in mind... -ALL- of your opinions and experience are worth contributing. You have to keep in mind that some things do not translate well to a writen media, and that misunderstandings will occur. For those who do not wish to read what someone posts, use the 'ignore' feature. One thind to remember though is that even those you have great disagreements with may often share a nugget of wisdom with you...and you may lose it by locking youself off from it.

Now...this threads a discussion about a technique. Lets go back to the topic k?

:asian:

chufeng

09-16-2002, 11:28 PM

Naihanchi Shodan, Nidan, and Sandan are three short forms derived from a Fujien Shaolin form...

It has its roots in Shaolin, its refinement in Okinawa, and its variations in many Karate systems (to include TaeKwonDo)...

It is a form common to many systems.

The bunkai in any of the systems are not static...the practitioner must adjust for distance, timing, and angle of attack regardless of the "base" application...when that happens, different weapons must be used...

I don't think that we can effectively explore bunkai in a written format...for those who disagree, please continue to post your applications...but, I was not the first to cast the "attitude" stone...and I believe my replies have been civil and appropriate...the only person I referred to as an a**hole, was myself.

If I see a point I can help clarify, I will...
I have learned from sharing on this board...I would like to continue to do so...but I won't waste my energy arguing over the cyberdojo...

Thanks for your input

:asian:
chufeng

RyuShiKan

09-16-2002, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

You have to keep in mind that some things do not translate well to a writen media, and that misunderstandings will occur.

Precisely my point which is why I believe "training" on the Internet is not a good idea. If people can't tell when you are joking, being, sarcastic or whatever how the heck are they going to be able to understand the finer points of a technique?? When I am teaching in the dojo and a student is watching technique they don't always get it even after it has been demonstrated several times...........they need to feel it to understand it.
There is only one way to study a martial art properly.........and that is hands on.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

For those who do not wish to read what someone posts, use the 'ignore' feature.

Sorry to be "blunt" but I find that option a bit childish. Sort of like poking you head back in the hole in the sand because you can't handle another opinion. It's a cop-out. Even though I don't agree with some folks on this board I will still read what they have to say................in some cases I have found those people I have disagreed with in the past to write some of the more enlightening things later on.

arnisador

09-17-2002, 12:36 AM

Those who do not wish to share information or training ideas on the Internet are welcome to not share them here.

Those who do wish to share information or training ideas on the Internet are welcome to share them here.

Martialtalk.com is for the friendly discussion of the martial arts. Please, discuss the martial arts in a friendly way.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

RyuShiKan

09-17-2002, 05:29 AM

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

question:

? - Is Naihanchi shodan bunkai static in the sence that only 1 'organization; has it, or is it a reasonably common technique seen in many similar styles, but with some variations? (newbie question)

Naihanchi Shodan is probably the most common kata among Okinawan karate and even a few of the Japanese off shoots have it.
It is one of the oldest kata and the "author" is not known, unlike some of the other kata.........say Kusanku for example.

There are slightly different versions of Naihanchi........some are "new" versions and some are older. Basically the "embusen" (directional layout) is the same with only slight differences in hand motions.

Naihanchi is rather simple looking in it's basic performance but most, if not all, of the movements have several different levels of technique from extremely basic or crude techniques, elbow smashes and stomps, on up to extremely advanced techniques that don't even resemble karate but look more like Chinese Bagua and TaiChi. (If anyone has questions about Bagua/Pa Kua talk to one of the Chinese stylist on this BB.)
With in Naihanchi there are kicks, atemi strikes, kyusho strikes, tuite, & blocks of a rather complex nature as well.

In Japanese there is a saying: "less is more", although Naihanchi is not by any means Japanese it is the physical embodiment of that idiom.
It's looks can be deceptive.
This is one reason why so many Karateka think it is a "baby kata" or "beginners kata"........far from it.
My teacher told me he has found no less than 300 life protection techniques and says he feels there are still many more. That is a lot because if you ever saw the kata performed it takes about 20 to 30 seconds from start to finish, and that's going fairly slow.

Sensei Mike

09-17-2002, 09:13 AM

Well, this post makes 34 on this thread, 25 or so not mine. There's lots of discussion of so much other than the request in the thread. (Including some very welcome posts that I ignore the noise.)

I am still interested in a meaningful exchange of interpretations of the movements of Naihanchi shodan. I would appreciate thoughts on the movements to the right. So far, no one has posted a meaningful interpretation of these. (In fairness, there was one short description, that stated: "wrist lock, leg bite, focused knuckle strike...." But this level of detail was not my expectation in the exchange. To begin with, I am unfamiliar with the term leg bite.) There were also some welcome contributions regarding the hand movements up and down, a jpg of what appears to be an interpretation of these up and down hand movements, and a great link to some Oyata videos, one of which had an great interpretation regarding the up and down hand motions. Still there has not been any offerings regarding the movements to the right.

I do acknowledge that I was remiss in not including the opening common to several systems, where the hands rise, fingers pointing upward, and then point downward. There are a number of systems that I have studied that start by bringing the hands together, from the sides, to the front, without raising them up, and then down. (Two systems that descend from Kyan: Matsubayashi and Shobayashi Shorin Ryu and three systems that descend from Itosu: Shito Ryu, Shotokan and Kobayashi Shorin Ryu.)

My interpretation above, starts with a right handed grab of the right wrist, and the bringing of the hands together is the beginning of a lock. But since at this point (hands together) only the opponent's hand is pinned to your wrist with your left, it does not really constitute a "technique", per se. Perhaps there are other things that can be done with this short movement of bringing the hands together. If someone would like to describe that movement and its context in the remainder of the movements to the right, then that would be wonderful.

In a good faith effort to demonstrate what I would like to contribute, I described the beginning of a combination that I have. (Only the beginning and not the full combination.) I discussed the movement in the kind of detail that an experienced karateka and practicioner of Naihanchi shodan should be able to find useful. I included problems with setting up the movement, as well as dealing with a different attack that initially thought. I discussed angle, and attacker posture. I kept my jargon to a minimum and pointed out some aspects of the defender's posture and body mechanics, as performed in the kata.

Again, I discussed only part of the combination that I practice and teach. As I have mentioned before, my "combinations" always include takedowns from the movements of the kata, and in my description so far, though I have brought the opponent to right his knee, I still have not taken him down. I have hit him twice, but against a large, strong attacker, these might not have been effective. The ridge hand might have struck a thick neck, the elbow might have hit his cheek bone or forehead. This might not be enough to stop the opponent. If an opponent outweighed my by 100 lbs (pretty likely for a great number of women practicing the art) I would have little confidence that the ridge hand would do anything other than buy me time to set up the elbow. And If the elbow misses, I need to have something else.

The primary reason I have a takedown in every technique is that I feel it wise to never have full confidence that standing techniques will always work against a large, aggressive, powerful opponent. Even if I do hit with maximum power, my standing techniques might miss the target. The attacker should be assumed to be both moving and uncooperative target making small targets difficult to hit. (For example the weak bone of the temple is relatively small area connected to strong bone in the back, and especially strong bone, the brow, in front.) So if I miss the target (temple e.g.) I might daze him, maybe, but I need to be able to finish him and kata provides just that, so I can do it quickly using the movements of the kata.

Moreover, there is also the underlying assumption that there is (or could be) a second attacker. So while you are off trying to solve that problem, the original attacker, if not finished, can recover and rejoin. In my description of the attack, I mentioned the possibility of a second attacker to the left of your attacker. Near the time you connect with your elbow to the initial attacker, you should be anticipating an attack by the second opponent.

I opened this thread, (and have repeated since) with a request for someone else to offer an interpretation of the movements to the right. As I didn't get any, my initial interpretation was limited and did not include the takedown and finish. The stated purpose of the thread was for an exchange.

This first interpretation (movements to the right) was not expected to be new to everyone. Perhaps the follow up takedown ase well as finishing techniques might be new to some people, who have not considered the movements to the left in use as a continuation of the initial defense to the right. It's hard to judge with nobody offering an interpretation to the right.

But I imagine that across my 15 or so standing combinations, there might be something new to even a well-versed Naihanchi Shodan practicioner. Hence, the purpose of the exchange. Try to find something new and useful. In addition, I would certainly imagine that not all practicioners of Naihanchi Shodan have practiced the movements at length, with partners, in ground fighting applications.

So my offer stands: would anyone like to exchange interpretations of the initial movements to the right in Naihanchin Shodan? If not, let me go further. Would anyone like to offer an interpretation of Naihanchi Shodan that either begins at the point of the left elbow at the end of the movement to the right, or includes that elbow movement (and earlier movements, if needed) and continues on to the left.

Again, email is fine.

Let the noise begin.

-Sensei Mike

RyuShiKan

09-17-2002, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Still there has not been any offerings regarding the movements to the right.

Actually if I am not mistaken there are 2 Mpegs on that site that deal with your question.

RyuShiKan

09-17-2002, 09:34 AM

No I'm sorry I just checked again.........make that 6 mpegs.

DKI Girl

09-17-2002, 09:50 AM

Sensei Mike

09-17-2002, 11:03 AM

Still there has not been any offerings regarding the movements to the right. ...Actually if I am not mistaken there are 2 Mpegs on that site that deal with your question.No I'm sorry I just checked again.........make that 6 mpegs.

Would you care to identify them? Or is this an easter egg hunt? There are, I believe, 25 videos on that page, 11 with Master Oyata and 14 without. The Oyata videos are without question a great resource as his techniques and interpretations are wonderful.

But again let me restate the original purpose of the thread. I am looking to discuss interpretations of the movements of Naihanchi Shodan and in an effort to start somewhere, I began with the beginning of the kata (or to my chagrin, near the beginning of the kata for some). That is the movements to the right in Naihanchi Shodan. This kata takes a step with the left foot across the right and the right foot steps out to the right. The right hand moves out to the right so that the arm is on the same plane as the body and then the left elbow is thrust out towards the right hand.

I do have some familiarity with the Naihanchi kata practiced by Oyata students. In the past several years, I have trained under several. I am reasonably confident that the opening I have described is the way the kata is performed in what I believe Oyata's system is called today - Ryu Te.

There are thousands of combinations in karate that map to the direct movements of kata. There are many thousands more that are independent of movements in kata or use portions of movements found in kata. I am making an effort to master a very limited set of movements, those specifically found in kata. This thread is designed to exchange with others, interpretations of the direct movements of the kata. In the movements to the right, I am particularly interested in the foot work, a left step, right step sequence.

I would be very grateful if you would please share with me which mpegs on the web site apply to these specific movements that are practiced within the Ryu Te system.

Thank you.

-Sensei Mike

Sensei Mike

09-17-2002, 12:06 PM

The Naihanchi Katas are exact duplicates of the first and second half, which means that the techniques can be used on either side of the body. So, therefore, it really doesn't matter whether we are using the first half or second half, it will work both ways.

IMHO, this is true of all but the opening movements to the right. This movement to the right is not replicated elsewhere. Similar arm movements are found to the left, but there is no crossover step preceeding the right strike followed by an elbow.

So once we finish with this technique, I agree, we are talking about mirror images.

For the down strike, Grab the back of the head or ear, if they are bald, bring the head down in a twisting of the neck to attack the right side of the opponents head (ST 5) with the punch in the kata.

That is a great follow up to the first elbow.

I do a takedown here. Recall that this attack can come from the right, so there is the potential of a second attack coming from the left. My goal is to do a takedown that drives the initial attacker into the path of a potential second attacker. In many other kata, there are turns where you spin. I have a variety of takedowns in these where I throw my opponent to my blind side, where, by definition, I can't see if he is about to hit me or not. For Naihanchi, there are no spins, so that is not an option. In any event, there are situations (2 attackers out in front, e.g.) where this takedown would insert attacker A in the path of attacker B.

Most Naihanchi systems load, or stack the hands after the elbow strike, with the right hand in chamber and the left just above and perhaps touching.

Prior to the "stack", I have my left elbow on the opponent's right temple and my right hand on his left side of his head. When I draw back, I change my grip. My left hand straightens so that my left hand can grab the hair on the back of his head. If there is no hair then grab the back of the neck, cupping the base of the skull. My right hand pulls back (to chamber), so that my right hand slides across his face so that the heel of my palm is on/under his chin. The top/side of his head is pulled to my chest.

My left downward block to the left, followed by my right "cross over" strike, is a snap of the neck. I use a body pivot to maximize my own power. The hands move together, not separate. This spins the attacker off to your left. He should wind up on his back, and if either the elbow or takedown were powerful enough, he would be at least dazed long enough for you to complete your finishing technique.

My finish is one of two, depending on how far away he falls (typically the taller, the further.)

I am going to use either my right step across, or the following left step to stomp to the head/neck area. In Shotokan, following the right cross step, the left knee comes up high which makes a stomp a direct sequence from the kata.

Some review. The attack is a right handed grab of the right. The goal is the takedown, where the stomp can be a great finishing technique. You have lots of mass propelling your leg downward, to an object (the head) that cannot "bob" back, as the head tends to when you strike it on a standing person. Also, if you choose, you can attack another very vulnerable target, the neck.

If you are using the left to stomp, this cross-over step followed by a downward side kick thrust or stomp is common to many karate systems and other martial arts. The cross over step is a rapid hop, to close the distance. And interestingly, many systems that practice a cross over step - side kick combination (whether a high kick or a stomp) step across the front, just as in Naihanchi Shodan.

To set up the takedown, there is a sweep/lock combination, both of which reinforce each other. This combo has a lot going on concurrently, as so takes a ton of partner practice. Then a quick strike to the neck to buy time for the elbow. The elbow, whether it hits its desired target or not, should have enough stunning power to set up the the throw.

The throw by itself, can break the neck of a smaller person, but against a large mass, this may not be the result, especially if the neck is very well muscled. But even against a very large attacker, it is effective in completing the takedown as that twist of the neck sends signals to the spine to relax a whole bunch of muscles in the neck, and torso. An immediate stomp flows directly from the next step(s) in the kata.

I would love some feedback.

First, I am a bit curious, which students that practice Naihachi have been taught, or figured out (as I have) this specific sequence?

I am far more interested to hear if anyone who hasn't looked at this interpretation before finds it a useful combination to add to their Naihanchi Shodan repertoire. I expect that some might need to try this on partners in the dojo before finding out if there are pieces that don't work well for a specific person, or against a certain kind of attacker (large, unresponsive to the wrist lock, etc.)

Finally, there have been numerous posts that claim that text cannot be used to adequately explain the intracacies of interpretations of kata. I would be very grateful if any readers would let me know if the level of detail I have provided DOES give enough information for an experienced Naihanchi Shodan practicioner to make use of. Please note that this thread was never meant to be targeted to novices, or those unfamiliar with the kata. The whole point of the "exchange" is that you have enough knowledge to use the movements effectively.

Any other ideas? I fully recognize this is just one of many, many for this initial sequence of movements to the right and left.

-Sensei Mike

Bob Hubbard

09-17-2002, 12:59 PM

I checked out the video clip mentioned initially... I'll be totally honest..it looks like a wristlock to me, similar to what we call 'backwards throw' in Arnis... Did I miss something? I'm not familiar with the systems in question so its totally possible.

Vids are very welcome to aid the visually impared like myself..an easier pointer to which ones would help follow things, I think. :)

Thank you!

RyuShiKan

09-17-2002, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

But again let me restate the original purpose of the thread. I am looking to discuss interpretations of the movements of Naihanchi Shodan and in an effort to start somewhere, I began with the beginning of the kata (or to my chagrin, near the beginning of the kata for some). That is the movements to the right in Naihanchi Shodan. This kata takes a step with the left foot across the right and the right foot steps out to the right. The right hand moves out to the right so that the arm is on the same plane as the body and then the left elbow is thrust out towards the right hand.

All the Mpegs on that website are techniques from Naihanchi Shodan

Sensei Mike

09-17-2002, 05:16 PM

Let me try rephrasing this question.

I had asked several times in this thread, if anyone had an interpretation for the initial moves to the right.

This initial direction includes a left step and a right step.

Please help me understand which of the videos on the page are for that specific set of movements. (Left cross-over step, right step to the right, right hand out to the right, left elbow, all of which are found in Ryu Te Naihanchi Shodan taught by Master Oyata.)

RyuShiKan

09-17-2002, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Please help me understand which of the videos on the page are for that specific set of movements. (Left cross-over step, right step to the right, right hand out to the right, left elbow,................

All the mpegs have one or more components of what you are asking for.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

................ all of which are found in Ryu Te Naihanchi Shodan taught by Master Oyata.)

Actually it is just plain old Naihanchi Shodan.
Only the interpretation of that kata is from Taika Oyata.

chufeng

09-17-2002, 05:44 PM

Mike wrote:

"My left downward block to the left, followed by my right "cross over" strike, is a snap of the neck. I use a body pivot to maximize my own power. The hands move together, not separate. This spins the attacker off to your left. He should wind up on his back, and if either the elbow or takedown were powerful enough, he would be at least dazed long enough for you to complete your finishing technique.

My finish is one of two, depending on how far away he falls (typically the taller, the further.)"

That last sentence implies that you actually have applied this technique on more than one person...how far did the student/training partner actually fall? and, how long were they in treatment after you snapped their necks? (you see, I do read this stuff;))

My prior post regarding wrist lock, leg bite, point strike still stands.
Leg bite is a Chinese technique (probably called something else in Okinawa and Japan) where you take out the persons base by using Stance work in very close proximity to the opponent...

I'm not going to get into a two page explanation on all of the intricacies of the sequence...for reasons stated earlier.

:asian:
chufeng

Sensei Mike

09-17-2002, 06:01 PM

All the mpegs have one or more components of what you are asking for.
Let me see if I understand this correctly.

There are 25 videos, 11 with Oyata. Are you saying that all 25, or just the 11 with Oyata, include components of the movements to the right side? I do hope you can answer this as it perhaps can narrow the area you have given me for my Easter egg hunt.

Again, just for clarification, you are stating that EVERY video (11 or 25) has movements that are part of the initial Naihanchi movement to the right, which includes ALL of the following: a left step, a right step, a right hand out to the right, and a left elbow to the right hand.

(Of course, it can also include, but not be limited to, the opening movement to the front.)

I really do appreciate this clarification.

RyuShiKan

09-17-2002, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

There are 25 videos, 11 with Oyata. Are you saying that all 25, or just the 11 with Oyata, include components of the movements to the right side? I do hope you can answer this as it perhaps can narrow the area you have given me for my Easter egg hunt.

Again, just for clarification, you are stating that EVERY video (11 or 25) has movements that are part of the initial Naihanchi movement to the right, which includes ALL of the following: a left step, a right step, a right hand out to the right, and a left elbow to the right hand.

(Of course, it can also include, but not be limited to, the opening movement to the front.)

I really do appreciate this clarification.

There is no "easter egg hunt".

All 25 of the mpegs on that website have one of more components of the techniques you inquired about.
(That would be starting at the begining and moving to the right and so on)
Please bare in mind that the techniques on the video are only very basic interpretations.

Sensei Mike

09-17-2002, 06:23 PM

That last sentence implies that you actually have applied this technique on more than one person...how far did the student/training partner actually fall? and, how long were they in treatment after you snapped their necks? (you see, I do read this stuff

It seems a good natured rib, but just in case I am too obtuse to understand the nuance, I will answer anyway.

This throw is no different than so many found in small circle Ju Jitsu and Aiki Jitsu schools. You just can't do many throws without seriously injuring the partner by breaking or tearing something. So it has to be done a bit slower, and in the small circle systems, a bit larger, so that you avoid injury.

This is really a simple takedown. As with so many techniques to the neck, the torso really relaxes and the body turns with the throw.

Of course the partner knows it is coming, and can't tense up, or else is risking injury. In actual application, I maintain that if you are mildly successful with the elbow then you will have a mildly relaxed attacker, for perhaps a second or so. If the ridge hand and elbow are in quick enough succession, this will also somewhat overwhelm the nervous system and cause relaxation in the shoulders and torso making it more of a throw than snap.

The key thing is to turn the hands like they were opposed approximately 180 degrees on a small steering wheel (about an 11:25 clock position). The hands move together on the turn. But so does the torso, as it does in the kata (at least as it is done in several systems with relatively immobile hips and more fluid pivoting shoulders and torso). With the head pulled in tight to the body (the stack of the hands) the slight torso pivot to the left adds a lot of force to the technique.

The more the torso and arms move, right to left, the more it is a throw. The tighter everything stays, the more it is a snap. Since my goal is to always throw the opponent I have a pretty big right-left movement. Kind of like turning a steering wheel that is shifting to the left.

Sensei Mike

09-17-2002, 06:38 PM

There is no "easter egg hunt" All 25 of the mpegs on that website have one of more components of the techniques you inquired about. (That would be starting at the begining and moving to the right and so on) Please bare in mind that the techniques on the video are only very basic interpretations..

First, let's be very, very clear about semantics. I am not sure I agree with your use of the term "and so on" underlined above. I have said repeatedly, and continue to say, that I am only talking about the movements to the right, in the initial direction to the right. I have never talked about the movements to the right "and so on". I have only talked about moves to the right, as part of the two steps and two hand movements to the right at the beginning of the kata.

Are we perfectly clear on this point. We are talking ONLY about the moves to the right, and the applicability of these videos, all 25 of them, to the moves in the initial direction to the right. (Two steps, two hand motions.)

Thanks again for the clarification.

RyuShiKan

09-17-2002, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

............We are talking ONLY about the moves to the right, and the applicability of these videos, all 25 of them, to the moves in the initial direction to the right. (Two steps, two hand motions.)

This is a common misconception among many modern and most western and Japanese karateka's understanding about kata and kata bunkai.
The techniques from the kata are not always as they appear in the kata, i.e. first A then B then C and so on and are not independent of each other but are all related and connected.
As my teacher has explained to many different martial arts people from various styles the kata are just like the alphabet. Just as ABCDEF......doesn't spell anything and has no meaning, kata too has no meaning if you think of the moves as merely ABCDEF or as I have stated above first A technique then B technique and so on. To make a practical and viable life protection technique you have to take different pieces of the kata and arrange them just as if you were making a word using the alphabet. So, if you look at the Alphabet and want to make the word CAT you take each letter out of order in the alphabet and combine them to make a word that has meaning, therefore, just as if you take part C of the kata and combine it with part A and part T (cat) you get a technique that has meaning.
So this is why when you say "Two steps, two hand motions" it is like saying "punch".........that's it? What comes next?
One punch by itself is not really a complete technique.

Sensei Mike

09-17-2002, 09:52 PM

My question still stands, as it appears to me that you have chosen to evade it rather than answer it. You stated earlier that you had two, then six, then 25 videos that apply to the four movements to the right. Let me try pinning you down one more time. Do all 25 videos pertain to the movements to the right, at the beginning. Not at the beginning "and so on." Just at the beginning.

If you won't answer that, how about answering this. Please tell me how the video labeled 646KB applies to this movement. (It is at the bottom corner before the Oyata videos.) For our readers, let me describe this part of my Easter egg hunt. (Let's say that here I looked under the bed and found none.) It begins with the attacker sitting on the ground, the defender squatting behind with a choke and then raising up with his right elbow rising vigorously upward, as he raised his mass into a stance. The right hand of the "rising elbow" winds up near the defenders own ear. The defender then demonstrates the rise again into a forward stance, followed by an outward block/downward block combo found in all the naihanchis, followed by another move into another forward stance.

Help me to understand why this isn't an Easter egg hunt when you ask me to look at 25 videos to find what you originally said was in two, then six, then 25. How about another request? Instead of my looking at all 25 again, how about if you would actually tell me which of the 25 have the leg-crossover movement. One leg steps over the other and then the second leg steps out? Could you do just that? Or will you claim it is in all of them.

Perhaps I am completely misunderstanding the situation here. When I asked you to verify your statements, you could not give a straight answer, but merely a discussion of why those four movements shouldn't be considered as sequential, although that is the way they are found in the kata.

I am familiar with the alphabet soup approach to kata taught by Master Oyata. It is a fine approach. But it too is limiting.

It is not the ONLY approach, it is but one approach. You are simply incorrect in your following claim.

Just as ABCDEF......doesn't spell anything and has no meaning, kata too has no meaning if you think of the moves as merely ABCDEF or as I have stated above first A technique then B technique and so on.

I have recently completed a lengthy description of ABCDEFGHI as it applies to Naihanchi shodan. (Or some would argue BCDEFGHIJ, as I left off the beginning.) This combination has very high fidelity to the sequential movements in the kata. It builds methodically, and overall is a devastating counter attack to an attack of a right grab of the right wrist. It starts with difficult combination, (wrist look, sweep) that together can lower vital targets into striking range. Then it follows with two good counters. The technique goes on, with the sequential movements of the kata.

You state:

So this is why when you say "Two steps, two hand motions" it is like saying "punch".........that's it? What comes next? One punch by itself is not really a complete technique. So this is why when you say "Two steps, two hand motions" it is like saying "punch".........that's it? What comes next?
One punch by itself is not really a complete technique. .

When I say two steps and two hand motions, that is exactly what I mean. It is not "like" anything other than that. It is very literal. It is from the kata. It is two steps and two hand motions. I could approach this aspect of your argument in any number of ways, but I have learned pinning you down is not straightforward. You state "what comes next?" If I replied that it was the next movement of the kata, would it make difference? If I replied "I don't care what comes next, the whole point of this thread, up to now, was to share these four movements", would that make a difference?

You are still left with statements that are difficult to support. You have stated that all 25 videos cover the opening four movements. Just think for a moment about this remarkable claim. If we are to count individual hand and foot motions separately, we get to four in the first direction. In the opposite direction, four are similar (the steps and the final two movements, but of course, they are not together and therefore the "combination is different.). To the left are 8 additional hand motions and two sweeps with the feet. And coming back to the right this is repeated. What are the odds that all 25 would apply to such a small percentage of the kata? Do all 25 apply equally to all aspects of the kata or just the movements to the right?

I have provided just what you say can't be done namely, ABCDEFGHI. I provided lot's of pointers on how the motions are faithful to the kata. Here are a few others.

In the first strike, the attacker's neck is pulled into the right ridge hand, as your left hand is returned to chamber to load for the next technique, and still holding on to the attackers wrist. This can be a wrist lock, but it is not critical. The second strike is among the most powerful techniques we can do with our arms, an elbow to the head, with the hand on the outside of the head, restricting it's ability to "bob" to your right. The right hand actually pulls the head into the left elbow strike. With that done, a very effective takedown is found in the direct movements of the kata. The only real difference is that the hands move more together than separate, which in essence says the right hand follows very, very quickly, as we should expect in combat.

I then use the direct step over, and the raised left leg found in Shotokan Tekki to launch a devasting finishing technique to the head of dazed opponent. And, please note, that I have inserted this opponent, potentially, into the path of another opponent.

This may seem like a difficult combination. It certainly is to those that have not practiced Naihanchi Shodan extensively. For those that have a few thousand repetitions under their belt, it works well. To those that have the 10,000 reps that Kentsu Yabu claims you need to make a kata your own (plus plenty of partner work and bag/makiwara to make the techniques strong), this is easy to do effectively, without thinking.

I have a couple of hundred such movements, over 150 alone from the five kata I practice. I only use the sequential movements of kata and have a takedown in EVERY one.

In one sense, I find your lack of understanding of the incredible effectiveness of the sequential movements in kata rather surprising. Your posts to this and other threads indicate a real knowledge of the art and its history. On the other hand, it helps to explain your inability to appreciate this forum as an effective mechanism to communicate technique.

I can see how you would have great difficulty describing some of the movements in those videos. How do you describe GABD to someone who has only practiced ABC and BCD and DEF and EFG. There is no common frame of reference. You bet the Internet is a lousy medium if you were trying to describe Oyata's movements found on those videos.

I am taking a completely different approach. It is one that seems to be beyond your experience. I am using practitioners' well-developed knowledge of ABC and BCD and DEF, and simply putting in an attacker, the attack and the posture, and then describing how ABC and BCD and DEF translate into effective technique. I share with them a common frame of reference that you seem unwilling to acknowledge. It as called Naihanchi shodan. This has never been about teaching new movements. This is all about having people understand well-known movements from a different perspective.

That's it.

In a sense, it is you that have missed this incredible richness of meaning of kata. There is no necessity to cobble together this move and that move to get a great combination. The original masters that created and refined these kata did it all for us. And to ignore this is to miss one fundamental value of the kata. In practicing a given one tens of thousands of times, you are programming your body to execute those movements, without thought. No need to mix and match.

This is not to criticize mixing and matching. That is a great way to utilize kata. But despite what you have learned, it is absolutely not the only way. Kata works, as it is. Period.

Kempojujutsu

09-17-2002, 11:17 PM

Mike, You seem very Knowledgeable about kata's, but it seems odd that you claim to have several hundred from the five kata's you pratice. But you don't have any for the first movement of Naihanchi? I have heard how Ryushikan explain how kata's are put together. How it was explain to me was, each movement was like a pearl on a necklace, strung together they make a necklace. Movements are interchageable. Most of the movements that you see can or are shown to be done forward, backwards, upside reverse.
Bob :asian:

RyuShiKan

09-17-2002, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

My question still stands, as it appears to me that you have chosen to evade it rather than answer it.

No, actually I have answered it at least twice.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

................ Do all 25 videos pertain to the movements to the right, at the beginning. Not at the beginning "and so on." Just at the beginning.

For the last time YES

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Please tell me how the video labeled 646KB applies to this movement. (It is at the bottom corner before the Oyata videos.) For our readers, let me describe this part of my Easter egg hunt. (Let's say that here I looked under the bed and found none.) It begins with the attacker sitting on the ground, the defender squatting behind with a choke and then raising up with his right elbow rising vigorously upward, as he raised his mass into a stance. The right hand of the "rising elbow" winds up near the defenders own ear. The defender then demonstrates the rise again into a forward stance, followed by an outward block/downward block combo found in all the naihanchis, followed by another move into another forward stance.

That video is an teaching explanation technique, not a demonstration of technique, of some of the bunkai for movements going to the right.
He is demonstrating where the attacker ends up and what is done to him.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Help me to understand why this isn't an Easter egg hunt when you ask me to look at 25 videos to find what you originally said was in two, then six, then 25.

Actually I had forgotten what was on the other videos but after watching them again I discovered my mistake.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

How about another request? Instead of my looking at all 25 again, how about if you would actually tell me which of the 25 have the leg-crossover movement. One leg steps over the other and then the second leg steps out? Could you do just that? Or will you claim it is in all of them.

Always the fast food approach "gimme it now".
Look at the videos and look at their feet.........some of the techniques have the first part of the footwork in it some have the hand techniques.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Perhaps I am completely misunderstanding the situation here. When I asked you to verify your statements, you could not give a straight answer, but merely a discussion of why those four movements shouldn't be considered as sequential, although that is the way they are found in the kata. I am familiar with the alphabet soup approach to kata taught by Master Oyata. It is a fine approach. But it too is limiting.

Obviously you did not read my post well enough about the sequential order in kata.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

In one sense, I find your lack of understanding of the incredible effectiveness of the sequential movements in kata rather surprising.

Really? Funny thing..........not only can I do all of the techniques on those videos I teach them.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

On the other hand, it helps to explain your inability to appreciate this forum as an effective mechanism to communicate technique. .

To be honest I think I have been than generous with you.
I you look at those videos and study them carefully you have about 10 years worth of work.
(To be honest, you can't actually see many of the finer important points in the technique so I doubt they will make for a very good study aide)

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

I can see how you would have great difficulty describing some of the movements in those videos. How do you describe GABD to someone who has only practiced ABC and BCD and DEF and EFG. There is no common frame of reference. You bet the Internet is a lousy medium if you were trying to describe Oyata's movements found on those videos.

I have been and it doesn't seem to be sinking in.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

I am taking a completely different approach. It is one that seems to be beyond your experience. I am using practitioners' well-developed knowledge of ABC and BCD and DEF, and simply putting in an attacker, the attack and the posture, and then describing how ABC and BCD and DEF translate into effective technique. I share with them a common frame of reference that you seem unwilling to acknowledge. It as called Naihanchi shodan. This has never been about teaching new movements. This is all about having people understand well-known movements from a different perspective.

I was "experienced" that method over 25 years ago.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

In a sense, it is you that have missed this incredible richness of meaning of kata.

Oh darn..........

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

................ The original masters that created and refined these kata did it all for us.

I was always under the impression they made kata rather confusing so any old passer by would know exactly what they were doing, and only taught trusted people or relatives. I can't remember reading where they made kata for the masses.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

................ And to ignore this is to miss one fundamental value of the kata. In practicing a given one tens of thousands of times, you are programming your body to execute those movements, without thought.

Only if you know what the movements are.

RyuShiKan

09-17-2002, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I have heard how Ryushikan explain how kata's are put together. How it was explain to me was, each movement was like a pearl on a necklace, strung together they make a necklace. Movements are interchageable. Most of the movements that you see can or are shown to be done forward, backwards, upside reverse.
Bob :asian:

BINGO!

Sensei Mike

09-18-2002, 07:43 AM

Kempojujutsu

it seems odd that you claim to have several hundred from the five kata's you pratice. But you don't have any for the first movement of Naihanchi?

I am finding it difficult to understand where you naysayers are coming from. I am trying to figure out how you could have read this thread, and still made the above statement. I have spent two long posts, and parts of short ones, providing a detailed analysis regarding the opening of this kata (lock, sweep, two strikes, takedown, stomp). Let me reiterate. This begins with the FIRST move in the kata.

One would expect, that in a good thread, that before commenting, one might actually read the content first. Of course the poster is free to ignore anything said previously, and state whatever he/she likes. But there is an expectation that when someone states something previously that it will not be conveniently ignored.

Here is the fourth post in this thread.
Some systems go from a formal stance with the feet together at the heels, and the hands by the sides, and bring the hands together, arms bent, in front, palms facing the body, and then rotate them down.

Some systems don't move that way. They start with the hands at the sides and move directly into the opening posture of the crossed hands without raising the hands at all. Some systems start in the opening position of hands crossed in front.
And the sixth post
Regarding moving my hands from my sides (or in Matsubayashi, on the fronts of my thighs) to the center in front of my groin, the Shito Ryu system I practice moves them less than 12 inches towards each other in a linear path. (I am 5' 8", and the length of movement would vary by height.)
Again, this is found in Kobayashi, Shotokan, Shito Ryu, Matsubayashi, Shobayash).

The students that founded the first three of these systems, all studied for many years with Itosu. The last two studied with Kyan who learned them from Matsumura. (One of the first three, Funakoshi, also studied with Matsumura)

So we have these four major contributors to Shorin Ryu (Chibana, Funakoshi, Mabuni and Kyan), that we know learned the kata from either Itosu and Matsumura and what do we find. Their systems today do not practice the raised hands, lowered hands before the movements to the right.

Now where did Oyata learn Naihanchi. From Nakamura perhaps? Where did Nakamura learn them from. He was perhaps 25 when Itosu died, and although he studied with him, there is a reasonable doubt that he learned Naihanchi shodan from him. In 1915, the Pinans were the introductory kata and back then, students, would have been expected to spend a long time with each kata. (I do recognize that Nakamura then studied with Hanashiro and others who who were Itosu's senior students.)

I train, periodically in Kobayashi, Matsubayashi, Shotokan and Shito Ryu. Now perhaps you should tell me, why should I practice a movement not found the kata of this broad cross section of Shorin Ryu (or perhaps more accurately, Shuri te). The rest of the Naihanchi shodan across these systems is virtually identical. There is lots to share outside from this initial movement found only in SOME Shorin Ryu systems.

I started this thread to share bunkai. I picked Naihanchi shodan because, except for maybe for the Pinans, it is the most common. It is without exception the most uniform, even including the presence of absence of a hands raising at the beginning. But my primary goal is a better mastery because Yabu Kentsu has stated that "Karate begins and ends with Naihanchi."

I overlooked one small difference, some systems have the hands raise and go down. But it is irrelevant. I want to look at the commonalities, which are essentially, EVERYTHING BUT the raising and lowering of hands in the initial movement. And I find it regretable that this one small difference has dominated this thread. It continues with your post and this reply.

Let me review. For the five systems mentioned above that lack the initial raising and lowering of the hands, I have a complete and thorough explanation for the FIRST movement in Naihanchi. It is bringing the hands together. (They start at the sides, or in Matsubayashi, on the thighs.) I explained the left hand/over right hand represents a pin of an opponent's right hand on your wrist, and is fundamental to setup a wrist lock.

My interpretation continues from there.

I continue to be surprised that you said I did not have any explanation for the first movement of Naihanchi. I have made that clear. It is a pin of the wrist, and it continues from there, pearl to pearl, down the necklace, in sequence, overwhelming the attacker. No detour from the sequential movements in kata.

It's amazing what actually reading a thread can do to the level of the content.

RyuShiKan

09-18-2002, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Now where did Oyata learn Naihanchi. From Nakamura perhaps?

That's right.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Where did Nakamura learn them from.

He studied from:
Nakamura Kokichi
Nakamura Teiichi
Nakamura Shinkichi
Motobu Choki
Itosu Anko
Yabu Kentsu
Hanshiro Chomo
Kuniyoshi Shinkichi

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

He was perhaps 25 when Itosu died, and although he studied with him, there is a reasonable doubt that he learned Naihanchi shodan from him.

That's correct he did not. He learned Naihanchi from Motobu Choki and Itosu Anko.
Motobu Choki studied from:
Itosu Anko
Tokumine Peichin
Matsumura Kosaku
Matsumora Sokon

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

I train, periodically in Kobayashi, Matsubayashi, Shotokan and Shito Ryu. Now perhaps you should tell me, why should I practice a movement not found the kata of this broad cross section of Shorin Ryu (or perhaps more accurately, Shuri te).

Oddly enough I have one of Fusei Kise's 3 dans in my dojo, his version and mine are pretty close.
Maybe you should stick with one dojo instead of hopping around between them.
You know the story about chasing rabbits......but then again you do keep mentioning the Easter Bunny or something of that nature. :D
If you don't want to do that hand motion then don't. I could care less either way.
But a better question is why don't the above mentioned do it since there are other styles that do it??
Have they just left it out? Could be.........ya never know.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

The rest of the Naihanchi shodan across these systems is virtually identical. There is lots to share outside from this initial movement found only in SOME Shorin Ryu systems.

Shotokan does it, and it is actually rather common in Okinawa and Japan.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

I overlooked one small difference, some systems have the hands raise and go down. But it is irrelevant.

Actually it is hardly small and it is a very good part of the kata that has at least 5 different applications that I know, I am sure it has more.
Why not try to understand as many versions of Naihanchi as you can instead of knit picking about only 2 movements.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

I want to look at the commonalities, which are essentially, EVERYTHING BUT the raising and lowering of hands in the initial movement.

There are several foot movements found in some version and not in others, there are also some that have different hand motions in the middle........in fact I can think of very few styles that are similar to the point that they are interchangeable.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

I continue to be surprised that you said I did not have any explanation for the first movement of Naihanchi. I have made that clear. It is a pin of the wrist, and it continues from there, pearl to pearl, down the necklace, in sequence, overwhelming the attacker. No detour from the sequential movements in kata.

A pin of the wrist? That's it?
What about the hands down position that follows? Are they connected at all? If so in what way?

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

It's amazing what actually reading a thread can do to the level of the content.

Ya know it's these kind of comments that don't get you very far......you make them and then expect people to spend the time and energy to write out long explanations about kata for you.
I really don't get that at all.
Quite frankly I find your attitude rather disrespectful not only to myself but to others that have posted information for you.
This makes me think you are not truly interested in learning.
And on that note I will leave you to fend for yourself.

DKI Girl

09-18-2002, 10:10 AM

Okay EVERYONE!!! Let's take a step back here and just discuss Bunkai!!

If you are not going to post a kata interpretation....don't post!!

This is getting ridiculous!!!

The cross over step can be used in a couple of different ways. It can be a step out to the side like the kata does to bring your opponent down and over from a wrist lock. It could be you stepping to the inside of your opponents foot to attack points or to ground them by stepping on their foot too.

You can also interpret the cross over as a turn. It is a very effective technique with the wrist lock.

Mike, I received my Shodan in Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu, so I can "see" the kata that you are describing quite well.

dki girl

Kempojujutsu

09-18-2002, 09:39 PM

1. Lapel grab-reach up grab hair or clothing with R.Hand. Left Hand strikes face and turns the chin. The cross over step is pivot of 90 degrees or more.
2. Lapel grab- trap hand to chest- cross step with is a pivot as you pivot you apply wrist lock
3. Say from a fighting stance, attacker grabs cross handed, grab his hand break the grip apply kote gaeshi type of lock.
Bob:asian:

tshadowchaser

09-18-2002, 09:49 PM

OK folks I will state this once because I dont think it needs stateing again. No one system has all the answeres and no one poster knows it all.
Each time sometime is taught it is a learning experence and no matter how we feel about who we studied with and what art we studied someone may have a different interpatation. That is why this thread was started to disscuss the differences not to say that any one interpatation was the only one.
Please get on with the disscussion of the moves.
When you disscuss the varrious moves we can all learn when you stagnate it becomes a nothing thread.
Shadow

RyuShiKan

09-20-2002, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

That's correct he did not. He learned Naihanchi from Motobu Choki and Itosu Anko.
Motobu Choki studied from:
Itosu Anko
Tokumine Peichin
Matsumura Kosaku
Matsumora Sokon

My mistake. Mr. Nakamura taught the Hanashiro Chomo version of Naihanchi Shodan. Although he studied the Itosu and Motobu versions. We presently practice the Hanashiro version with the hands starting in the "book reading" or "prayer" position.

Matt Stone

09-22-2002, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Interesting that a Chinese stylist practices Naihanchi Shodan. Is this a Chinese variant, or from one of the Okinawan systems

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what form(s) a person does... A combination of Japanese, Chinese, Okinawan, etc. Forms all head in the same direction. Movement is more important than the cataloguing of individual techniques represented in a form. How the movement is used to create techniques is the key moreso than the "standard" or "orthodox" breakdowns given in any particular form...

Matt Stone

09-22-2002, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

This thread is about the exchange of "interpretations" of kata. I don't know what system(s) of karate you have studied, but if it (they) did include extensive bunkai practice that contained takedowns from the movements in the kata, it (they) would be in the minority of karate systems today.

Actually, I have only recently begun studying karate, and regrettably had to terminate such study due to my recent relocation to the US. I wish I were able to continue, and in all likelihood whenever I return to Japan I will most assuredly be hitting RyuShiKan up for another lesson... ;)

My training has been, and continues to be, in Yiliquan. It was quite a shock for me when I first discovered that the bulk of other martial arts schools didn't do form analysis/break down because it is such an integral part of what we do in Yili. I continue to be amazed by the folks that continue to maintain that forms are either worthless for "modern" martial arts training (whatever "modern" is supposed to imply), or that the techniques everyone else sees so clearly in forms are not actually there...

We could go on and on why this is the case, or to what degree this is the case. Fortunately today, there is a wonderful resurgence of ideas coming from many communities.

You are right. We could go on for pages and pages as to the Why of the current situation, but it is pointless and unproductive. It is a fortunate turn that so many people are gradually turning toward the "pro-kata" side and are delving into the contents therein.

Gambarimasu.

RyuShiKan

09-22-2002, 09:17 PM

quote: Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Interesting that a Chinese stylist practices Naihanchi Shodan. Is this a Chinese variant, or from one of the Okinawan systems

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what form(s) a person does... A combination of Japanese, Chinese, Okinawan, etc. Forms all head in the same direction. Movement is more important than the cataloguing of individual techniques represented in a form. How the movement is used to create techniques is the key moreso than the "standard" or "orthodox" breakdowns given in any particular form...

__________________
Matt Stone

Matt,

Your right. Which version of a form(s) a person does is irrelevant. I was trying to point this aspect out but to no avail.

Since the body only moves in certain directions, and body mechanics are the same for big or small people it is not really so important which technique is being used but how one arrives at the use of that technique.

Just as an extra tid bit of info, the kata Naihanchi Shodan is thought to have originated in China, so any of the Okinawan versions would be variants of the Chinese version(s).

Sensei Mike

09-22-2002, 10:33 PM

This is a long post. It includes, later on, a fairly detailed analysis of an idea for some movements in Naihanchi. I hope somebody benefits from it. My apologies, in advance, for so many preliminaries. My recent experience cautions me about leaving holes open in my analysis for the sake of brevity.

Well, I offered to exchange ideas, and gave you only one pattern so far. The next pattern begins with the movements to the left, against a left handed grab of the left hand (downward block/cross over strike) but the takedown is a little hard to describe, so for now, I will fast forward a bit. I want to show an idea where I could use the next movement, but I would rather do the mirror image a little further ahead. Instead of opening with the movements after the step to the left, I prefer to discuss an idea immediately after the step back to the right, where the left hand is executing an outside block. We will go through a combination and end up with the same takedown as the previous technique I described. (necksnap).

Before I begin, I need to set up some concepts that I stick to pretty uniformly in my interpretations.

First, I would like to begin with a post from Joe Swift regarding Mabuni's interpretations of directions in the Pinans. This can be found at (http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000002.html) and is posted in full, typos and all.

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I would like to offer the following partial translation of a chapter on the bunkai of Pinan Nidan in the 1938 "Kobo Kenpo Karatedo Nyumon" by Mabuni Kenwa and Nakasone Genwa. This particular passage is found on pp. 139-140, and deals with directions in kata.
Although this particular passage makes specific reference to the Pinan series, I propose that the principle can be applied to all other kata as well.
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Kata and Directions:
The meaning of the the directions in kata is not well understood, and frequently mistakes are made in the interpretation of kata techniques. In extreme cases, it is often eard that "this kata moves in 8 directions, so it is designed for fighting 8 different pponents" or some othewr such drivel. I would like to address this issue now.
Looking at the enbusen for Pinan Nidan, one can see that karate kata move in all different directions, forward and back, left and right. When interpreting kata, one must not get too caught up in these directions.
For example, do not fall into the trap of thinking that just because a kata begins to the left that the opponent is always attacking from the left. There are two ways of looking at this:

(1) The kata is defending against an attack from the left
(2) The kata is shifting to the left against a frontal attack

At first glance, both of these seem reasonable. However, looking at only number (1), the meaning of the kata becomes narrow, and the kata, which in reality must be able to be applied freely in any given situation, becomes awfully meager in its application.
Looking at a specific example, the 5 Pinan kata all start to the left, and then repeat the same movements to the right. Looking at
interpretation (1), the opponent must always be attacking from the left, and while fighting that opponent, another omes up from behind, so the defender turns to fight the new opponent. This type of interpretation is highly unreasonable.
Looking at interpretation number (2) however, the 5 Pinan show us that against an attack from the front, we can utilize tai-sabaki (body shifting) to evade to either the left or the right to put ourselves in the most advantageous position to defend ourselves.
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tr. Joe Swift, 1998

Back to my post. I discovered many years ago, through careful analysis, the idea stated above by Mabuni, that in the opening of Pinan Shodan (in fact all the Pinans, and Kusanku Sho), that the initial movement can be used as tai sabaki (body shifting) against an opponent in front, and this has become much of the foundation of much of what I do. Though this is not a post on the Pinans, I long ago realized how effective some movements were when the opponent is directly in front, or slightly off to the one side or the other, rather in prearranged directions that you turn to. For the opening of the Pinans, against a large and powerful opponent directly in front, striking with his right (either straight or more importantly a hook), the counterclockwise pivot:

1. gets you off the line of attack
2. Keeps you in close range for a counter strike
3. allows the blocking arm to fully benefit from the power of the turn.
4. Allows for good power generation for a right counter strike, as the right hip is rotating towards the opponent. (In