is "hands up" really neccasary?

[muayThaiPerson]

in my gym, its always "hands up". but when i spar, i can keep my hands at mid level and still have good defenses. also i can throw better punches from there. keeping your hands up only getes ur arms tired and throws predictable punches.

do u guys agree or disagree?:asian:

[MartialArtist]

If it works for you, go for it.

For me, I like to keep mine at chest level. Not at the head, not too low. That's me. There, I can protect my solar plexus, stomach, and my head with ease. If I had it at head level, I can't defend against low shots as well and visa versa.

But I think what they mean by "hands up" is don't keep them at your sides. The only people who puts there hands on the side very relaxed (you should always be relaxed, but relaxed like they got the situation under control) are either...

1. Really good and wants to show something
2. Or just a beginner

[Angus]

In Muay Thai (and boxing in general) you want to have one hand pretty much ON your face at all times. I think you're missing the whole tuck & cover thing. If you get in a fight with a real MT guy and you don't have your hands by your face, he's 1) going to always go there when in tight because you'll always have a much bigger opening, and 2) he'll probably go for the plum, which you DON'T want. Keep your hands up and you can guard from that. Remember, your face is MUCH more of a sensitive knockout area that the sides of your body.

Keep it protected. You're still new, so learn the rules before you do your own thing.

[muayThaiPerson]

i guess i am a beginner......what would be considered amatuer? how long would i have to be there to be an amateur?:asian:

[Angus]

Depends on the person. Time isn't the only thing that matters. Why does the label matter?

Point is you should learn the rules their way before you break them, so you understand WHY they have the "rules" the way they do, etc. Just my opinion though. :)

[Chiduce]

Let's take this sparring association to the real world. A good street fighter is going to come at you with an array of violent brutal punches and strikes to the mid and upper torso, not to mention head and neck jerking shots usually in combination until you are down. So, those good sparring habits of keeping the hands up will reflect themselves in the real violent attack. This will give the defender time to block, trap, dodge, parry, and counter-strike to set him/her up for the finishing hand/arm breaks, kicking breaks, and throws etc, which will allow escape routes in ending the brutal encounter!
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

[J-kid]

70% of people in real fights are head hunters. If your hands are at your chest you get hit in the head. SO keep them up and stay safe/

[Angus]

What's the source for that statistic. Seems like BS to me. How can you calculate that?!

[J-kid]

From street fighters , Well in the us anyhow. everyone gos for the head/

[CHUNNER]

In Wing Chun as you know we focus a lot on controlling the centreline. The way I put it to students is that in order for a junior grade to control the centreline he or she must be on it. An advanced grade can control it without being on it.

A junior student has not built up the automatic responses to an opponents movement so their reaction times to an attack are usually slower therefore for them to defend themselves they will have to keep their guard up. (there are always exceptional students I accept that)

A senior grade has experienced many more attacks so his /her reaction times are faster and conditioned reflexes more appropriate.

Senior grades sometime use a dropped or non existent guard as a drawing technique to open an opponent up.

In summary I teach students to keep their guard up until they are advanced enough not to need to.

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson

in my gym, its always "hands up". but when i spar, i can keep my hands at mid level and still have good defenses. also i can throw better punches from there. keeping your hands up only getes ur arms tired and throws predictable punches.

do u guys agree or disagree?:asian:


Sparring does not directly transcend to the street. In the street you only have to keep up your hands for as long as the attacker is in front of you not for six 2 minute rounds so tiredness isn't really a factor in the street. In sparring keeping your hands up keeps your head safe and you throw more powerful punches not lazy ass punches like some cocky Muhammed Ali wanna be (being one of the few people who could get away with it). We have a saying where I train - Cover your face with your fists or you opponent will cover your face with his fists.

Just some thoughts
Cheers
Sammy

[tonbo]

I keep my hands "generally" about centerline. Most important to me is that I try to keep my hands *moving* instead of static. I don't like to keep "predictable" openings out there as an invitation.

Yeah, I say that......but I don't always manage to do it.....sometimes, I just start *thinking*, and then, well.....my hands just stay put....;)

Anyway, I think keeping your hands up is a good idea, as you can cover much more that way, and your blocks are generally there more if you need them.

That having been said, however, I would say go with what works for you. That seems to always be decent advice..;)

Peace--

[7starmantis]

I think alot of it has to do with what is natural to you. I kep my hands generally centerline and above, but really far out. Alot of distacne between my face/body and my hands. You can't change your style to just what you feel comfortable with, you have to make yourslef change a bit, but to some degree it will not work if you are not comfortable with it.


jmo
7sm

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

70% of people in real fights are head hunters. If your hands are at your chest you get hit in the head. SO keep them up and stay safe/
Real fights are different. Some people are smarter than others. If you have your hands up, they won't go for the face. If you have your hands low, they go elsewhere.

[Shinzu]

i keep my hands centered. not up real high, but not too low either. feel i have more awareness and control at this point.

i think that the whole "keep your hands up" is a constant reminder from instructors. so many students will tend to drop their hands when they kick, or use them to retain their balance.

by someone saying this out loud it is a reminder for those that do have their hands down. it makes them aware of where their hands are and their need to correct this problem. i think it is a good thing.

[Rainman]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson

in my gym, its always "hands up". but when i spar, i can keep my hands at mid level and still have good defenses. also i can throw better punches from there. keeping your hands up only getes ur arms tired and throws predictable punches.

do u guys agree or disagree?:asian:

Hands up or at least one in front of your face. A kick to the head unchecked will cause damage if not a KO. Can sap your strength etc. Same goes for a punch.

You are more predictable with hands down- says you are mostly offensive. A well rounded fighter will pick up on this in a round or two if not sooner. Then he will begin to draw your hand further away and create very large holes from which to attack.

For the street- once aggression comes your way either remove yourself or engage before the other guy knows what hit him. I would advise against any kind of recognizable fight posture. More than likely he will have some associates around. So action needs to be swift and decisive.

A very good topic:asian:

[sammy3170]

I think most people in here are referring to sparring. In a self defence situation my hands would always begin in a neutral position from which I can defend yet is non threatening

Cheers
Sammy

[Damian Mavis]

Ya he's talking about fighting in the ring Muay Thai style. For those that don't know MT keeps the hands up in front of you palms outwards or towards eachother and slightly higher than your eyes leaving your forearms protecting your face and upper chest. Its very hard to keep them like that for the 3 minute rounds.

KEEP THOSE HANDS UP! Theres a reason for that, you haven't been knocked out yet so you dont know the reason yet haha but you'll learn if you keep at it! Most people in Muay Thai learn the hard way why we keep our hands up so high, you can be one of those people or you can keep those hands up now and save yourself the trouble. In Muay Thai the shin kicks to the head area are actually aimed at your neck.... think on that, theres been ring deaths from catching that kick in the neck. I know its tiring and hard to keep the hands up the whole round every round but in the end youll have an advantage over the others that get tired and start to drop their hands, if you see the hands go down you go after that head!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Kempojujutsu]

I keep the hands held high, use the elbows to protect the body. Also I watch some K-1 fights on ESPN, these guys had their hands high. Some of them got knock down or knock out with shin kicks to the head. Can't remember the one guy from Canada, he won the K-1 tounament, but he sure could kick. I believe it to be a personal feel, each person has there own way.
Bob :asian:

[tmanifold]

Mike MacDonald. He used to train with My instructor at my old kickboxing gyms, sometimes. He is real good. I watched him in a muay thai fight one time his leg kicks made me wince.

Tony

[Damian Mavis]

Guys keep in mind he was asking for advice on hands up for Muay Thai.... there's a certain way things are done in Muay Thai so discussing all the other ways to fight is great and all but it's not helping him with his question.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

Guys keep in mind he was asking for advice on hands up for Muay Thai.... there's a certain way things are done in Muay Thai so discussing all the other ways to fight is great and all but it's not helping him with his question.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

I guess then it really doesn't matter as with sparring you can use trial and error. If your hands are down and you get nailed you'll know not to do that again and can take what you've learned to your next match. From what I have seen in Kickboxing/Muay Thai fights the guys who have their hands down are fine until they come up against someone with good punching skills. If you have been training with your hands low it then becomes a very difficult fight and you have to fight in a manner which feels unnatural to you. Like I said just keep trialling until you find an appropriate stance.

Cheers
Sammy

[Damian Mavis]

Not exactly.... kickboxing and Muay Thai are completely different animals. Theres no "whats good for you" in Muay Thai really. You will not see anyone with their hands down in a professional Muay Thai fight period (unless way out of range...even then not common at all). Kickboxing is something else altogether. There is no trial and error in Muay Thai either, the Kru is constantly on your case to keep your hands up which is why the originator of this thread asked why it was so damn important because obviously his Kru is nagging and nagging him to keep his hands up up up! It is annoying to be constantly badgered to keep your hands up but theres good reasons for it, some instructors are hard core and if your hands are down they beat you in the head with a stick until your hands go up again. People with their hands down can die. Like I posted earlier they arent aiming the high shin kicks to the head, they are aiming for your neck! My friend fought for a few months in Thailand at the pro level and when his coach would hear "kick him in the neck! kick him in the neck!" he knew to scream "keep your hands high!" to my friend who would happily comply knowing what was coming. When he got tired the hands tend to drop slightly which is when the opposing coach would call for the neck kick to take advantage of that weakness. His hands are still covering his head but when they get lower (from fatigue) the blocking power is lessened and a good shin kick can tear right through your guard.

The reason I say there is no trial and error is because Muay Thai is fairly regimented on how to stand, how to have your hands up, how to kick and where your hands go when you do etc.. and its all because of years of ring experience. You don't do it a cetain way your in big trouble. It's been proven time and time again so they know the best way for Muay Thai. Things would be different for anything else. It's just a huge no no to not have your hands up to a certain height in Muay Thai.

But your right, maybe the poster of this thread should just find out the hard way. I personally like to listen to my Kru as I figure he knows whats best for me and has my health and welfare in mind.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Kempojujutsu]

Here's a question, was watching a video from the fairtex camp. they were showning some basic stuff. One of the things I have question on is the shin kick or round kick. When they throw it, they swing the hand the oppsite way. They say you get more power. They also talked about using your shoulder to help guard your chin. Here is my thought, why not keep the hands up when throwing the kick. sacrafice some power in the kick for protection of the face/chin?
Bob :asian:

[Damian Mavis]

One hand is up for defence while kicking. Theres the arm you described which usually goes along the ribs with the shoulder of that arm protecting your face and the other hand is up in front of your chin to further protect your face. So basically it's like having one hand up and one shoulder up to protect your head. Theres no real need to put both hands up because with all the angles of attack in Muay Thai you are covered if throwing the kick Muay Thai style against a Muay Thai fighter. Don't really know if the same methodology would work in another form of ring fighting but for Muay Thai it's tried and true.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[George Martin]

This may be a little off topic, however how low are your stances in Muay Thai? How many inches approximately between front and rear leg?

[Damian Mavis]

Heel toe. Our lead leg (your weaker leg) toes forward has its foot pretty much parallel to our rear leg foot (toes forward) and the rear toes are in line with the heel of the lead leg. Coming from a Tae Kwon Do / Karate background I know this sounds very tight and it is. Took me forever to effectively learn how to kick powerfully from such a limitted stance after kicking for 10 years from a good foot back. But Muay Thai doesn't get it's power from throwing the kick from way back they get it from really snapping the hip over. Kinda like in TKD we get added power from snapping a chambered kick from the knee whereas MT snaps the kick from the hip with no chambering at the knee. Sounds awkward but if you learn how to do it properly it feels great and you get tons of power.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[George Martin]

How much separation between the feet?

[Damian Mavis]

Around shoulder width, honestly I've never asked for the specifics of distance from one foot to the other but everyone I see has a close to if not slightly larger than shoulder width stance.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD