Kajukenbo / Kosho Ryu Kenpo

[James Kovacich]

I didn't know exactly what to call this thread but the video is called Kajukenbo Kosho Ryu Kenpo
Back to our Roots Seminar
Kajukenbo Kosho Ryu Trick Technique

Is their connection to Kaju or Kosho or both?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y2Hsothgrc&mode=related&search=

[John Bishop]

I didn't know exactly what to call this thread but the video is called Kajukenbo Kosho Ryu Kenpo
Back to our Roots Seminar
Kajukenbo Kosho Ryu Trick Technique

Is their connection to Kaju or Kosho or both?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y2Hsothgrc&mode=related&search=

It's a joint effort between Kajukenbo grandmaster Jaime Basquez and Kosho Ryu master Paul Yamaguichi. "Kajukenbo Kosho Ryu Kenpo" is the name of their organization.

[James Kovacich]

Is that thee Yamaguchi who signed Chows cert or maybe his son?

Does it resemble Kajukenbo as you practice? I thought his hands were OK but I don't like the ninja-like footwork.

[John Bishop]

Is that thee Yamaguchi who signed Chows cert or maybe his son?

Does it resemble Kajukenbo as you practice? I thought his hands were OK but I don't like the ninja-like footwork.

It is Paul Yamaguichi. Even though he was James Mitose's black belt, is not senior to Chow. He actually got a black belt from Chow in 1952, before training with Mitose, and getting a second black belt. Your probably thinking about Thomas Young, who signed Chow's certificate.

It's mostly Kajukenbo, with some Kosho Ryu mixed in. The "ninja-like footwork" is from the Kosho escaping arts, not Kajukenbo.

[James Kovacich]

You're right I was thinking of Thomas Young. It's hard to judge on 2 minutes especially when evrythings is slow and for demonstation.

The only bad thing I saw with the hands was that he lowered his hands a bit. But he also used his hands from the low position as part of the following technique. And the technique when performed at full speed, things like dropping the hands may not occur.

Is it in line with Kajukenbo black belt material? That type of handwork (although differant mainly because footwork alone will change the techniques) is closer to what I do today, than the colored belt Kaju I trained as a teenager. It definately has a Gung Fu influence compared to what I trained which was more Karate-like.

Did it evolve more recently or maybe the advanced material was their all along?

[BlackCatBonz]

The stuff on that video is kosho footwork and handwork.
Like I've said in previous posts, there are no real set techniques in kosho, you just make it up on the fly and stick to the principles.

[Matt]

I didn't know exactly what to call this thread but the video is called Kajukenbo Kosho Ryu Kenpo
Back to our Roots Seminar
Kajukenbo Kosho Ryu Trick Technique

Is their connection to Kaju or Kosho or both?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y2Hsothgrc&mode=related&search=

That was pretty nice. I especially liked the part in the middle where he did Karazenpo / Shaolin Kempo combination 6 (or 1 depending on who you ask) the old way and then tacked on what looked like a variation on combination 28.

It's the left parry / right hammer to the biceps with the front kick, followed by the hook kick to the midsection and then the reverse crescent to the head. We usually do the second kick as a sweep though. Too bad there's no technical overlap between Karazenpo and Kajukenbo, so I must have imagined it.

Matt

[James Kovacich]

The stuff on that video is kosho footwork and handwork.
Like I've said in previous posts, there are no real set techniques in kosho, you just make it up on the fly and stick to the principles.
I think it's safe to assume that Mitose didn't teach that type of handwork.

Where did it come from?

[John Bishop]

It's the left parry / right hammer to the biceps with the front kick, followed by the hook kick to the midsection and then the reverse crescent to the head. We usually do the second kick as a sweep though. Too bad there's no technical overlap between Karazenpo and Kajukenbo, so I must have imagined it.

Matt

Anythings possible. But since there are no hook kicks, and reverse crescent kicks in any of the "Original Method" techniques, the resemblance probably comes from the fact that Prof. Ortega's teacher (his father GM Cherry Ortega) was also a tae kwon do black belt, like GM Pesare was.

[BlackCatBonz]

I think it's safe to assume that Mitose didn't teach that type of handwork.

Where did it come from?

how do you know?

[Matt]

Anythings possible. But since there are no hook kicks, and reverse crescent kicks in any of the "Original Method" techniques, the resemblance probably comes from the fact that Prof. Ortega's teacher (his father GM Cherry Ortega) was also a tae kwon do black belt, like GM Pesare was.


That's a very good point. Actually, Fred made #28 up, but that's what it looks like. The first part (the parry, hammer to the bicep and front kick) I know I've seen before.

Matt

[John Bishop]

The first part (the parry, hammer to the bicep and front kick) I know I've seen before.

Matt

Quite possibly. It's Kajukenbo "Punch Counter #1". It's also the opening move for Punch Counter #2, #3, #4, #17, and "Two Man Counter #2".

Here's the man that created the technique. And no, it's not Fred Villari.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid211/p377099a58d2116332f8147d7a73682d9/ed98491a.jpg

[Danjo]

That was pretty nice. I especially liked the part in the middle where he did Karazenpo / Shaolin Kempo combination 6 (or 1 depending on who you ask) the old way and then tacked on what looked like a variation on combination 28.

It's the left parry / right hammer to the biceps with the front kick, followed by the hook kick to the midsection and then the reverse crescent to the head. We usually do the second kick as a sweep though. Too bad there's no technical overlap between Karazenpo and Kajukenbo, so I must have imagined it.

Matt

The Combo #6 i know is just a front kick to the groin. #1 is the inside parry, with the trap, claw and back hand to the face throat grab and sweep.

Which one are you talking about?

[Danjo]

how do you know?
Parker, Chow, Young and Anton Krucky all said Mitose used Okinawan style basics and that's what he taught. One-punch-kill stuff. Young, Chow and Krucky all said that most of what Mitose would do was lecture about morals.

[Matt]

Quite possibly. It's Kajukenbo "Punch Counter #1". It's also the opening move for Punch Counter #2, #3, #4, #17, and "Two Man Counter #2".

Here's the man that created the technique. And no, it's not Fred Villari.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid211/p377099a58d2116332f8147d7a73682d9/ed98491a.jpg

Great Picture!
Precisely the move I was talking about. I was pretty sure it was an official 'Kajukenbo technique'. Back in the earlier days of Karazenpo / SKK that was 'combination one' or 'combination 6' depending on who you ask. These days in the Villari / USSD schools, it's combination 6, but they've removed everything but the front kick. Can you see why so many of us are interested in 'getting back to our roots'?

As far as the part Fred Villari made up, I meant the 'hook kick-reverse crescent kick' part. In fact, if it's SKK and it's above about #26 it was made up / borrowed by Villari, or made up by one of his 'senior guys' back in the 80's. He sort of dished them out in tens - as in "hey Bob- go make up 50-60." So much for the thousands of year old / Shaolin Temple propaganda.

But anyway, nice clip. Fun to watch.

Matt

[Matt]

The Combo #6 i know is just a front kick to the groin. #1 is the inside parry, with the trap, claw and back hand to the face throat grab and sweep.

Which one are you talking about?

Ready for some numbering idiocy? As far as can be pieced together (you wouldn't think it would be that hard as many of the players are still alive):

What you had as #1, was actually #6, but was much shorter, and went to the outside. What you had as #2 was #7, but was done off a right rear hook punch. What you had as #6 was #1, but included pretty much the entire Kajukenbo Punch Counter #1, but is now just "Front kick cross and cover" Since Villari. What you had as #7 used to have an outward double parry as late as Nick Cerio, which he kept and called "Buckling the Branch" in his NCK curriculum (if I remember correctly.).

Easy to follow, eh?

Matt

[Danjo]

Ready for some numbering idiocy? As far as can be pieced together (you wouldn't think it would be that hard as many of the players are still alive):

What you had as #1, was actually #6, but was much shorter, and went to the outside. What you had as #2 was #7, but was done off a right rear hook punch. What you had as #6 was #1, but included pretty much the entire Kajukenbo Punch Counter #1, but is now just "Front kick cross and cover" Since Villari. What you had as #7 used to have an outward double parry as late as Nick Cerio, which he kept and called "Buckling the Branch" in his NCK curriculum (if I remember correctly.).

Easy to follow, eh?

Matt

Very interesting. Yeah it's odd how they arranged it. Plus, they still teach #6 and #7 first, so why they re-numbered them is the question.

[Matt]

Very interesting. Yeah it's odd how they arranged it. Plus, they still teach #6 and #7 first, so why they re-numbered them is the question.


Basically, they wanted to in$ert a little my$tery so it was harder to gue$$ what you were learning next to encourage you not to wait to te$t.

Also they could tell 'who was whose' by which ones you knew. The various splinters have changed the order many times.

Matt

[John Bishop]

Basically, they wanted to in$ert a little my$tery so it was harder to gue$$ what you were learning next to encourage you not to wait to te$t.

Also they could tell 'who was whose' by which ones you knew. The various splinters have changed the order many times.

Matt

Why am I not $urpri$ed

[Hand Sword]

Master Bishop,

Who is kicking Master Forbach in the picture?

[John Bishop]

Master Bishop,

Who is kicking Master Forbach in the picture?

Sijo Emperado

[Danjo]

Basically, they wanted to in$ert a little my$tery so it was harder to gue$$ what you were learning next to encourage you not to wait to te$t.

Also they could tell 'who was whose' by which ones you knew. The various splinters have changed the order many times.

Matt

Well, I had noticed that every instructor seemed to do them differently. In fact, here's a fun one. When I was testing for blue belt, it was with a man named Vince Carter at USSD. He was a "Master" etc. anyways, the USSD has all of their techniques on video tape narrated by Mattera. Well, Carter was the one that performed the kata required for blue belt ( I utterly forget which one now) However, when we got there to test, we all performed the kata the way we had learned it. Then, Master Carter said, "Wait, hold on! You guys are doing it the way I did it in the video, but it's all wrong. I don't know what I was doing when I did it that way. I don't do that kata that way. Here's the right way to do it." Well, we were a bit confused and when I got back to my school I went to my instructor and asked her what the hell? She said, "Oh, Master Black changed it a few months ago and now the tapes are all wrong." How's that one?

[Hand Sword]

:rofl:

[Matt]

Well, I had noticed that every instructor seemed to do them differently. In fact, here's a fun one. When I was testing for blue belt, it was with a man named Vince Carter at USSD. He was a "Master" etc. anyways, the USSD has all of their techniques on video tape narrated by Mattera. Well, Carter was the one that performed the kata required for blue belt ( I utterly forget which one now) However, when we got there to test, we all performed the kata the way we had learned it. Then, Master Carter said, "Wait, hold on! You guys are doing it the way I did it in the video, but it's all wrong. I don't know what I was doing when I did it that way. I don't do that kata that way. Here's the right way to do it." Well, we were a bit confused and when I got back to my school I went to my instructor and asked her what the hell? She said, "Oh, Master Black changed it a few months ago and now the tapes are all wrong." How's that one?

I've watched those tapes (picked them up on eBay), and his assessment of his performance is correct, he did them poorly(but not Nebraska poorly). Strangely enough you would think Charlie Mattera would have noticed seeing as he narrated the tapes. By the end of the tape, I was ready to jump off a cliff if I heard "prairie block" one more time.

I do have to say, I'm glad you've found Mr. Bishop's school. I know the comparison is making SKK look pretty poor at this point, but let's just say not every SKK / Karazenpo school is like a West Coast USSD. I was in an East Coast USSD for a while (my instructor left Villari's with Demasco) and we managed to use enough contact that I had my ribs cracked a couple times. However, they may have toned down, or Masters Self Defense Centers may have toned up, as when I went back to visit a couple years later, I was invited to sit in on class and spar, and his blackbelts were uncomfortable with what we called 'light contact.'

I guess you can't go home again.

Matt

[Danjo]

I've watched those tapes (picked them up on eBay), and his assessment of his performance is correct, he did them poorly(but not Nebraska poorly). Strangely enough you would think Charlie Mattera would have noticed seeing as he narrated the tapes. By the end of the tape, I was ready to jump off a cliff if I heard "prairie block" one more time.

I do have to say, I'm glad you've found Mr. Bishop's school. I know the comparison is making SKK look pretty poor at this point, but let's just say not every SKK / Karazenpo school is like a West Coast USSD. I was in an East Coast USSD for a while (my instructor left Villari's with Demasco) and we managed to use enough contact that I had my ribs cracked a couple times. However, they may have toned down, or Masters Self Defense Centers may have toned up, as when I went back to visit a couple years later, I was invited to sit in on class and spar, and his blackbelts were uncomfortable with what we called 'light contact.'

I guess you can't go home again.

Matt

Well, I would never say it was below Omaha quality.:)

[DavidCC]

I guarantee you there are more over-ranked talentless hacks in New England and California than there are in Nebraska.

At least Matt had the guts to back up his cheap shots with video of himself... something Dan is afraid to do despite his penchant for criticizing and acting superior to everyone and everything.

-D

[Lisa]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.


Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super Moderator

[Matt]

I guarantee you there are more over-ranked talentless hacks in New England and California than there are in Nebraska.

I would have to say you are correct, sir. However, that is merely a question of scale. I can't swing a dead cat without hitting a 8th dan or above in Massachusetts - we're just overrun with kempo. On the other hand, the percentage of over-ranked talentless hacks is skewed high in your neck of the woods to (by my guess) 50% at least due to the lack of black belts that aren't my specific favorite gold plated tenth dan.



At least Matt had the guts to back up his cheap shots with video of himself... something Dan is afraid to do despite his penchant for criticizing and acting superior to everyone and everything.

-D


Thanks, I think. :idunno:

Although I prefer to think of it as educated criticism with a heaping side of sarcasm.

Matt

[Danjo]

At least Matt had the guts to back up his cheap shots with video of himself... something Dan is afraid to do despite his penchant for criticizing and acting superior to everyone and everything.
-D

Well, David, I sent the tape today. I don't know what happened to my first one in the move and all, but hopefully you'll be able to rest a bit easier now.:)

Anyways, it probably doesn't look as good as Matt, but it might look a wee bit better than some 10th degrees we all know. Also, if you do post it on Youtube or wherever, please post the whole thing. It's only about 7 or 8 minutes long and I demonstrate what I thought was wrong with Geary's and Steiner's kata on it also. I don't expect anyone to "Ooooh and Aaaah" over it, but I don't want it to be out of context either.

[Ray]

I can't swing a dead cat without hitting a 8th dan or above in MassachusettsYou must be swinging pretty awesome with that dead cat of yours.

[Matt]

You must be swinging pretty awesome with that dead cat of yours.

Well, I had some FMA training too. You'd think being 8th degrees they would dodge or at least block. Actually, some do evade - those are the good ones.

Matt

[DavidCC]

Well, I had some FMA training too.
Matt

now THATs funny.

[fistlaw720]

DavidCC,

I noticed in the video of Steiner and Prof. Rash doing forms, that Stenier does Pinan #3 from the NCK system. Do you guys have NCK forms in CNG Shaolin Kempo? Where did CNG learn these forms from? According to the NCK guys Geary got an Honorary Shodan in American Kenpo from Prof. Cerio, not in NCK. With this being said Prof. Cerio either trained a person in generic Kenpo or in his own system, never both, except for some special individuals.

[Danjo]

DavidCC,

I noticed in the video of Steiner and Prof. Rash doing forms, that Stenier does Pinan #3 from the NCK system. Do you guys have NCK forms in CNG Shaolin Kempo? Where did CNG learn these forms from? According to the NCK guys Geary got an Honorary Shodan in American Kenpo from Prof. Cerio, not in NCK. With this being said Prof. Cerio either trained a person in generic Kenpo or in his own system, never both, except for some special individuals.

They're the same forms in SKK which was from Fred Villari who was a black Belt under Nick Cerio.

[fistlaw720]

Right, but I thought the NCK Pinan Series came after 1974, which means Villari was already on his own. Just an observation.

[Matt]

Right, but I thought the NCK Pinan Series came after 1974, which means Villari was already on his own. Just an observation.

I went to watch the clip last night and I saw the Fred Villari pinan 1 and the Fred Villari pinan 2, which Steiner's teacher probably learned during his brief USSD career. Is that the right clip? I do have to say that Steiner looked better than CNG, but there were some weird body mechanics going on. It may be that he was trying too hard to impress the guests, but he was leaning in sideways to the windup for his strikes which misaligned his spine in a funny way.

[Matt]

DavidCC,

I noticed in the video of Steiner and Prof. Rash doing forms, that Stenier does Pinan #3 from the NCK system. Do you guys have NCK forms in CNG Shaolin Kempo? Where did CNG learn these forms from? According to the NCK guys Geary got an Honorary Shodan in American Kenpo from Prof. Cerio, not in NCK. With this being said Prof. Cerio either trained a person in generic Kenpo or in his own system, never both, except for some special individuals.

Sorry, I didn't think to check until it was too late. In the Villari lineages, the Pinan #2 looks almost exactly like the NCK pinan #3 with small variations like the open hand blocks in the beginning of NCK pinan #3. As far as I know, he taught pinan #2 (like villari uses) up until he revamped the curriculum and created Nick Cerio's Kenpo. Prior to that he taught pretty much verbatim what SGM Pesare taught, and because Villari left prior to the formation of Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Villari's material below black belt actually has a pretty heavy overlap with SGM Pesare's material.

So it pretty much went like this:

SGM Pesare--> 1-4 Kata (he called them pinions) from Sijo Gascon's Karazenpo plus 5-7 that he created. He also claims to have brought in the form that is called 'statue of the crane' (formerly Rohai, or as he asserts, Nohai).

Professor Cerio--> Initially, taught what SGM Pesare taught, and then introduced the 'pinans' which were actually Taikyoku Shodan (instead of pinan shodan) and a form inserted in the place of pinan nidan that he created, most likely after his visits to Professor Chow and Professor Chun as it resembles very much one of theirs. 3-5 pinan were very similar to the basic karate pinans. Honsuki was added at this point. Villari was trained during these years.

After 1974, when he created Nick Cerio's Kenpo, many of the numbered katas were revamped. 2 kata became circle of the leopard, Circle of the tiger was made up from a combination of the concepts in the other forms, Circle of the panther was based on SGM Pesare's 7 pinion / kata, and so on, so that things were very different. He apparently inserted a form before the previous #2 pinan bumping that one up to #3. The former #3 pinan, became one of the 'cat' forms. Really a lot of changes.

I hope that didn't make things more confusing.

Matt

[fistlaw720]

I went to watch the clip last night and I saw the Fred Villari pinan 1 and the Fred Villari pinan 2, which Steiner's teacher probably learned during his brief USSD career. Is that the right clip? I do have to say that Steiner looked better than CNG, but there were some weird body mechanics going on. It may be that he was trying too hard to impress the guests, but he was leaning in sideways to the windup for his strikes which misaligned his spine in a funny way.

I noticed the same thing. Didn't resemble a Godan in any Kenpo system that I know.

[fistlaw720]

Sorry, I didn't think to check until it was too late. In the Villari lineages, the Pinan #2 looks almost exactly like the NCK pinan #3 with small variations like the open hand blocks in the beginning of NCK pinan #3. As far as I know, he taught pinan #2 (like villari uses) up until he revamped the curriculum and created Nick Cerio's Kenpo. Prior to that he taught pretty much verbatim what SGM Pesare taught, and because Villari left prior to the formation of Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Villari's material below black belt actually has a pretty heavy overlap with SGM Pesare's material.

So it pretty much went like this:

SGM Pesare--> 1-4 Kata (he called them pinions) from Sijo Gascon's Karazenpo plus 5-7 that he created. He also claims to have brought in the form that is called 'statue of the crane' (formerly Rohai, or as he asserts, Nohai).

Professor Cerio--> Initially, taught what SGM Pesare taught, and then introduced the 'pinans' which were actually Taikyoku Shodan (instead of pinan shodan) and a form inserted in the place of pinan nidan that he created, most likely after his visits to Professor Chow and Professor Chun as it resembles very much one of theirs. 3-5 pinan were very similar to the basic karate pinans. Honsuki was added at this point. Villari was trained during these years.

After 1974, when he created Nick Cerio's Kenpo, many of the numbered katas were revamped. 2 kata became circle of the leopard, Circle of the tiger was made up from a combination of the concepts in the other forms, Circle of the panther was based on SGM Pesare's 7 pinion / kata, and so on, so that things were very different. He apparently inserted a form before the previous #2 pinan bumping that one up to #3. The former #3 pinan, became one of the 'cat' forms. Really a lot of changes.

I hope that didn't make things more confusing.

Matt

Makes perfect sense, thank you once again.

[Brother John]

I really liked the video, thanks for sharing.

Your Brother
John

[DavidCC]

I went to watch the clip last night and I saw the Fred Villari pinan 1 and the Fred Villari pinan 2, which Steiner's teacher probably learned during his brief USSD career. Is that the right clip? I do have to say that Steiner looked better than CNG, but there were some weird body mechanics going on. It may be that he was trying too hard to impress the guests, but he was leaning in sideways to the windup for his strikes which misaligned his spine in a funny way.

Yes, we call that pinan 2.

That may be a very insightful observation about the "wind up" LOL. I've never seen him do that since then :idunno: he did admit much later that he was pretty nervous about demonstrating in front of Sijo Gascon LOL

Our variation of SKK includes material from Villari/USSD, from NCK, and from Tenshi Goju. Pinan 1-5 and kata 1-5, with a few changes here and there... the forms I've been able to compare seem to have the same "shape" even if some of the handwork is a little different.

[bill007]

Quite possibly. It's Kajukenbo "Punch Counter #1". It's also the opening move for Punch Counter #2, #3, #4, #17, and "Two Man Counter #2".

Here's the man that created the technique. And no, it's not Fred Villari.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid211/p377099a58d2116332f8147d7a73682d9/ed98491a.jpg

Mr. Bishop, after viewing the video over and over again I have notice some technical confusion on this particular technique, all the martial artists I have work with teach me if you block from oustside you have to block after the elbow and if you block inside you have to block before the elbow on this particular block we see the complete opposite of everything I have learn, can you give me a hint on this one...

[John Bishop]

Mr. Bishop, after viewing the video over and over again I have notice some technical confusion on this particular technique, all the martial artists I have work with teach me if you block from oustside you have to block after the elbow and if you block inside you have to block before the elbow on this particular block we see the complete opposite of everything I have learn, can you give me a hint on this one...
It's a little hard to answer your question, not knowing who your instructors are, and what system they were teaching you.
I will say that this block in Kajukenbo is called a "brush block", and is nothing more then a boxers parry. It is not a hard palm type block. It is used to slightly deflect/redirect a punch away from it's intended target (your face). The block basically slaps the attackers fist, redirecting it a couple inches to either side of your face. If it was done to the attackers elbow, then the fist would have already reached your face. In the picture it looks like the block was done to the elbow, but the attackers punch actually continued forward after being redirected to the right side of Sijo's face. The attackers arm is kept close in to allow for the bicep strike, and a takedown.
In Kajukenbo there are a lot of western boxing techniques, and gunting techniques from Escrima. So some of the movements/techniques may look odd to a traditional karate/kung fu practitioner.

[bill007]

It's a little hard to answer your question, not knowing who your instructors are, and what system they were teaching you.
I will say that this block in Kajukenbo is called a "brush block", and is nothing more then a boxers parry. It is not a hard palm type block. It is used to slightly deflect/redirect a punch away from it's intended target (your face). The block basically slaps the attackers fist, redirecting it a couple inches to either side of your face. If it was done to the attackers elbow, then the fist would have already reached your face. In the picture it looks like the block was done to the elbow, but the attackers punch actually continued forward after being redirected to the right side of Sijo's face. The attackers arm is kept close in to allow for the bicep strike, and a takedown.
In Kajukenbo there are a lot of western boxing techniques, and gunting techniques from Escrima. So some of the movements/techniques may look odd to a traditional karate/kung fu practitioner.

I see it's not a hard karate block and probably the 2 dimensions effect and the angle of the picture just give me this impression. Thanks for the info.

[SK101]

So much for that 1000 yr old Shaolin Temple propaganda.

Matt

I had heard originally the same thing from Professor I, you will probably want to double check this with him, but I believe he said he had the chance to compare upper DMs with people who have trained at the temple and there is more overlap then may have been thought in the past. Not saying they are from the temple, but it sounded to me like there might actually be a relationship somewhere. Even if there are some with high similarities how they got into the SK curricullum would still be up in the air. It's been atleast a couple of months since that conversation with Professor I so please double check my information.

[Gufbal1982]

I had heard originally the same thing from Professor I, you will probably want to double check this with him, but I believe he said he had the chance to compare upper DMs with people who have trained at the temple and there is more overlap then may have been thought in the past. Not saying they are from the temple, but it sounded to me like there might actually be a relationship somewhere. Even if there are some with high similarities how they got into the SK curricullum would still be up in the air. It's been atleast a couple of months since that conversation with Professor I so please double check my information.

when did Professor I go to the temple?

[MeatWad2]

GM Villari just made those up. I dont think villari ever went to the shaolin temple.

Prof I quit as a forth degree so I dont think he has all 108 combos.

[marlon]

GM Villari just made those up. I dont think villari ever went to the shaolin temple.

Prof I quit as a forth degree so I dont think he has all 108 combos.

I am not sure what you mean by quit but Shihan Ingargiola has never stopped training and learning. I believe he recieved his 5th from Demasco before he left Villari's or Villari himself gave him his fifth...or sixth. Since then he has trained with and achieved rank legitimately from legitimate instructors. No he does not have all 108 combinations, though i think he has a total of 97 combo's...but i am not certain of the exact number.
Respectfully,
marlon

[Gufbal1982]

I am not sure what you mean by quit but Shihan Ingargiola has never stopped training and learning. I believe he recieved his 5th from Demasco before he left Villari's or Villari himself gave him his fifth...or sixth. Since then he has trained with and achieved rank legitimately from legitimate instructors. No he does not have all 108 combinations, though i think he has a total of 97 combo's...but i am not certain of the exact number.
Respectfully,
marlon


Um, Marlon...you are mistaken on Professor I's rank when he left Fred Villari's. He was a 4th degree. Steve DeMasco did not promote people to the rank of 5th degree unless Fred Villari was there. I remember e-mailing Professor I, asking him why he left when he was a 4th degree.

[marlon]

you could be right. i did not re check his profile before my post....my main point was that he never stopped training


BTW do you know the story of that last test with Demasco^ ask him sometime
marlon

[marlon]

You could be right i was not sure whethwer it was 4th or 5th ...my main point is that he has never stopped training. But he did recieve his 5th under the Villari banner

respectfully,
marlon

[marlon]

You could be right i was not sure whethwer it was 4th or 5th ...my main point is that he has never stopped training. But he did recieve his 5th under the Villari banner

respectfully,
marlon

[MeatWad2]

you could be right. i did not re check his profile before my post....my main point was that he never stopped training


BTW do you know the story of that last test with Demasco^ ask him sometime
marlon

What happen?

[Mariachi Joe]

Yeah we'd all like to know