I found my perfect conbo for martial arts cross training

[J-kid]

I found the perfect arts that go well together and work really well for me. Here they are Judo Jujutsu JKD Muay Thai kickboxing. These martial arts really work well together cross training rules!:D :D

[Jay Bell]

So is the answer to be watered down at 4 instead of solid at one?

[J-kid]

Here is the thing i learn Judo/Jujutsu at one Dojo and at the second i learn Muay Thai and JKD. But they all seem easy to learn together and have alot of the same basic conseps. The arts dont get in each others way. Infact i dont water down any of the arts by learning the other, THey all seem to expand on each other making them a strong conbative art together, I believe that i will be ready for any kind of fight now because of these 4 arts.

[Kenpo Wolf]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
,,,,I believe that i will be ready for any kind of fight now because of these 4 arts.

So the only reason you do the martial arts is to learn how to fight? If this is so, you are missing out what the martial arts are all about. In your other posts, you stated that you wanted to be a NHB fighter which is cool and you have my respect for that . But what if those plans don't go the way you want them to? You need more education besides the martial arts. You are still young so you still need to focus on your schooling rather then going to two martial arts classes. Get a good foundation in one art before picking up another one. If you want experience in grappling, you can always join the wrestling team. You may even go farther in that then NHB fighting. At the very least, you or your parents won't have to pay for a second martial arts class

[The 14th Style]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

I found the perfect arts that go well together and work really well for me. Here they are Judo Jujutsu JKD Muay Thai kickboxing. These martial arts really work well together cross training rules!:D :D

Hey Judo-Kid, good luck on your training. Tell me, do you learn or do they teach any Filipino Kali concepts in your JKD class? I know the FMA 's concepts are popular with some of the JKD folks. :)

[J-kid]

Yeah they do teach kali. O and to respawn to kenpo wolf i put my school work first.

[MartialArtist]

I also give you my blessings in your training.

But, you can't expect to master all four arts as it's almost impossible to even master one art. That is what Jay Bell's talking about I think.

The only way you can successfully learn all four without ANY confusion would be to not look at arts AND/OR get watered-down versions of each. You would get SO much more out of one art if you dedicated most your time to it, and you will soon learn its effectiveness.

[Jay Bell]

I'm glad you've found some arts that seem to work well together. That's always a very good thing when looking at cross-training.


I believe that i will be ready for any kind of fight now because of these 4 arts.

Unfortunately, this is a fantasy approach. There's always something unseen and unprepared for in combat. That's how the reality of it all works.


But, you can't expect to master all four arts as it's almost impossible to even master one art.

That's exactly what I meant, Martialartist ;)

[bscastro]

Judo-kid,

Good luck in your training. I think in cross-training it is always a balance between time, money, and ability to pick up things. If you are improving, then go for it. However, monitor that you are not overextending yourself.

My cross-training has been a product of moving from city to city because of my education or work. For example, I first started cross-training in Tae Kwon Do and Kali because while at school, I did TKD, then Kali when I went home for the summer. I found a Kali teacher where I had school and did both TKD and Kali.

Since moving for work and grad school, I found myself just training informally with some Filipino friends at school and doing occasional visits to my other instructors.

Currently, I am training with a JKD instructor who incorporates Jun Fan, Muay Thai, Kali, and grappling, among other things, so I'm getting my cross-training in one class. I occasionally see my other instructors and a couple other "specialists" to supplement my training, but I am concentrating my efforts under one instructor.

I think each person is different. As long as you are enjoying yourself and have the time, money, and desire, this might work for you on some level. But you have to be honest with yourself too. As others have said, its' tough to master 4 arts, let alone one.

Enjoyment is the key word, too. Some people train in one art their whole lives and are perfectly happy and fulfilled doing that (and can defend themselves to some degree as well).

In any case, I'm babbling.

Good training to all,
Bryan

:)

[7starmantis]

I have to agree with some of the posts here, I believe it would benifit you better to focus on one art for a while. You are still young and getting any art to be instinct needs serious concentration and intensive training. I think you would benefit from focusing on one art, and learning its techniques to a point, then focusing on the other art.


JMHO

7sm

[Nightingale]

I would agree that just going to one dojo would probably be more beneficial to you at this point. Get a good foundation in one art (at least brown/red belt level) before you consider cross-training. There's no point to being a "jack of all trades, master of none"

to give a slightly off topic example: I have perfect pitch. I love music and musical instruments. I can play the piano, harpsichord, violin, harp, harmonica, guitar, recorder, and djembe (african drum). Pretty much any instrument I come into contact with, I can coax a tune out of. However, there's no way I could sit down and play a sonata on any of them. I've got the basics in many different instruments, but I don't have the advanced concepts in any. I didn't really start getting somewhere with music until I picked one thing to concentrate on, voice, and then was able to use my instrumental skills to compliment my main art (singing).

the same goes for martial arts. if you work on trying to master everything at once, you end up with a lot of different basics, but since you're trying to learn four different things, it takes you much longer to get to a mastery level. Pick one art, stick to it, and once you've sufficiently advanced, then cross train to augment what you already have.

I hope that makes sense... not awake yet.

[bscastro]

Originally posted by nightingale8472


the same goes for martial arts. if you work on trying to master everything at once, you end up with a lot of different basics, but since you're trying to learn four different things, it takes you much longer to get to a mastery level. Pick one art, stick to it, and once you've sufficiently advanced, then cross train to augment what you already have.


Speaking of learning different basics, I think that is another important thing to think about. If you do choose to continue trying to cross-train at the same time, it might be possible with some of your choices. For example, the judo and the jiu jitsu might work well together, but if they overlap too much, you might wonder if you should be just concentrating on one. For example, I find alot of the JKD stuff I do mixes well with the previous Kali experience, but not as much with the base structure of TKD.

In any case, I would still consider limiting your study to less (I won't say one art, because it sounds like you are enjoying these alot and probably want to continue in some). Maybe pick the top two you are enjoying and then when you reach a high level there, try others.

Are you studying with several different teachers for these? That's another thing. As I mentioned before, my current teacher utilizes groundfighting, stand-up, and weaponry using JKD as a core philosophy. However, if you are seeing different instructors for JKD, judo, etc. it not only can be alot to learn, but also cost alot!

Bryan

[Bod]

Well, Judo is a watered down martial art, and the same could be said for Mauy Thai. This is probably why you get more from training the two.

Don't get mad at me for saying they are watered down, because watered down is the same as specialised in the context of these particular arts.

I do Judo because when I return to Kung-Fu (probably 5 Ancestors) I want to understand balance and throwing better, techniques it is hard to practice while learning Kung-Fu.

I'd say find out about as many arts as you can at first. This will help you find out what you want your base art to be. Then train hard in your base art while perhaps supplementing it with one or two other styles, to give you a perspective.

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Bod



I'd say find out about as many arts as you can at first. This will help you find out what you want your base art to be. Then train hard in your base art while perhaps supplementing it with one or two other styles, to give you a perspective.

exactly.

[Master of Blades]

KALI RULES!!!!!.........................:shrug:

[Damian Mavis]

Bod, how is Muay Thai watered down?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[KennethKu]

aerobic kickboxing perhads?

[J-kid]

:( :( :(

[Master of Blades]

I think what everyone has been trying to put across for a while now is that, although cross training can be pretty good and make you a well rounded fighter, that sticking to one MA and becoming fantastic at that is probably a better idea. My best advice is probably to do JKD (The Inosanto version) because that teaches simple effective grappling as well as kicks and weapons aspects and so on. Your basically cross training but there is NO chance of any of them getting mixed up because there all taught in one art. Thats my two cents anyway.......

[bscastro]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

Bod, how is Muay Thai watered down?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

I think what he meant was that Muay Thai specializes in stand up. I think (or hope) that he wasn't talking about it's effectiveness, but maybe we should wait to hear his response.

[Damian Mavis]

Uh KenethKu... what on earth are you talking about? I train the same way they train in Thailand, I'm getting ready for my first amateur fight in Canada and then when I go down to Thailand in December to train for a month I plan on fighting there too. Do you really think I'm delusional enough to have joined a cardio kick class and think I'll be ready for all that? Bod and Kenethku please explain what you mean. This is Muay Thai we are talking about... you know, THE MOST BRUTAL ring art in the world. I'm perplexed at this turn of events haha. How is Muay Thai watered down? And if what I'm doing is watered down...god help me because I'm in a constant state of healing my bruised, broken and bleeding body.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[MartialArtist]

Muay thai is watered down... Under some cases. Same with EVERY other art that remotely becomes popular in the West. Look at TKD in the US.

[Damian Mavis]

I've taken watered down martial arts... and the Muay Thai academy I train at is definately not one of them. I don't know if theres Muay Thai clubs out there "faking" it but I have never seen one. All the clubs I've interacted with have been under Ajarn Chai if that makes a difference. I've never seen this watered down MT you all keep referring too so I have no idea what your talking about but how on earth do you water down MT?! "OK everybody, today we are going to PRETEND to hit eachother in the ring and when we are done that and we all have our pretend injuries we can all pretend to fight in Montreal next month...." I just don't get how you can water down a full contact ring art and expect people to survive in the ring when they go to fight. We even have a professional fighter that fought in Thailand 6 or 7 times training at our academy..... I think if it was watered down he would notice having trained in Thailand for 6 months. I'm still waiting for the explanation from Bod, KennethKu and Martial artist as to what watered down MT is comprised of as I cant even begin to fathom it.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[KennethKu]

Mr Mavis

Sorry :) I was joking when I mentioned aerobic kickboxing being watered down MT.

I wasn't referring to your MT training at all. I just read the earlier post that mentioned (MT w/o use of elbow and knees), aerobic kickboxing just came to mind. Oh well, joke gone bust.

I have read your post about passing your MT Short, and I am impressed. Wish you the best in your coming MT competition, Mr Mavis. KILL'em !! lol

http://www.worldtaekwondoacademy.com/serv04.htm

May be this may help illustrate aerobic kick-boxing :)

[Damian Mavis]

Omg KennethKu, you and your links... were on earth do you get all these links you can just pull out a hat like that? You are a very talented poster... if I threw a topic at you I'm positive you'd have a link for it. KenethKu....Master of the secret linking arts.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

I've taken watered down martial arts... and the Muay Thai academy I train at is definately not one of them. I don't know if theres Muay Thai clubs out there "faking" it but I have never seen one. All the clubs I've interacted with have been under Ajarn Chai if that makes a difference. I've never seen this watered down MT you all keep referring too so I have no idea what your talking about but how on earth do you water down MT?! "OK everybody, today we are going to PRETEND to hit eachother in the ring and when we are done that and we all have our pretend injuries we can all pretend to fight in Montreal next month...." I just don't get how you can water down a full contact ring art and expect people to survive in the ring when they go to fight. We even have a professional fighter that fought in Thailand 6 or 7 times training at our academy..... I think if it was watered down he would notice having trained in Thailand for 6 months. I'm still waiting for the explanation from Bod, KennethKu and Martial artist as to what watered down MT is comprised of as I cant even begin to fathom it.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Oh? Not watered down?

There are many places that teach muay thai. A lot of the instructors have only been training for about 3-5 years so hence, they won't be as knowledgeable or as experienced as someone else. Even in boxing, I started teaching kids when I was in high school and I only took it for how long then?

Many of the kickboxing clubs that claim they teach muay thai is nothing more than American kickboxing with a few elbows.

Some schools, they teach a few kicks, go do some sparring, and do kicking bag drills. The instructor is not good enough or does not care about how bad their technique is or whatnot.

There is a chain-school called the Two Tiger Gym... One of them teaches muay thai... As well as Inosanto JKD, TKD, and "Shaolin". So you get an idea of how good that would be.

Even some Thai muay thai practitioners feel that it is getting watered down (from combat form)


Before the 1940's, Thai fighters fought bare-knuckled. After World War II, the Thai government became concerned due to the high number of fatalities in the ring and forced some rules to be used: they gave up groin shots, eye pokes, started using weight classes and boxing gloves, and rounds. The Thais felt that this watered down their sport. As a result, Thais place more emphasis on kicks, particularly to the legs; knee strikes; and grappling. These skills score higher points than hand strikes in Thai matches.

[MartialArtist]

http://members.aol.com/Thaiboxing2000/ - the webmaster also talks about sport style and military style and how the sport style doesn't have a lot of the techniques the military style has.

Now, the webmaster is obviously bias and does not know what he's talking about when he talks of other styles saying this art lacks this and that and backs up his claims with a few events and goes on the old and monotonous saying of "my art is better than your's" and such and never gives evidence of the opposing side AND there are defintely some. For example, a shuai chiao practitioner, born in Beijing, trained for five years defeating a veteran of muay thai obviously messes his claims up.

[MartialArtist]

And TKD and karate practitioners kicking with their front-leg. Huh? I thought it was both? Front for speed, rear for power. Do not use that site to get some strange ideas.

[Damian Mavis]

Ok... Martial artist.... I can agree with you about all those crap schools you gave examples of but they are not Muay Thai academys. A Muay Thai academy is pumping out amateur and professional fighters, anything else is probably like what you described as "watered down". My instructor has been doing MT for about 20 years now, we have professional and amateur fighters that train at our club. When we fight at any level we HAVE to follow the traditions and do the traditional dance in the ring before fighting while wearing the traditional garb. Ajarn Chai comes and does all our instructor testing and seminars a few times a year. Our technique level is high because of all this...it is definately not watered down.

I guess I was a little ignorant of all the copy cat schools out there teaching "semi" Muay Thai as I had never heard of such a horrible thing. I thought MT was the last art to not be corrupted by bad instructors and copycats. Ah well.... but will you at least concede that what I do is not watered down MT? Or do I have to train with glue and glass shards on my handwraps to satisfy your sense of non watered down MT? heh That was a joke....kinda.

One more thing...."One of them teaches muay thai... As well as Inosanto JKD", Ajarn Chai and Dan Inosanto have a martial arts family tree that has many schools under it all teaching Muay Thai, JKD and Filipino weapons and martial arts. The instructors at these schools are all certified to teach those arts or they wouldnt be part of the family tree. I dont know about that school you mentioned but my instructor has been training in all this for 20 years and before that he was taking other martial arts. He teaches special forces and police and is respected internationally for his knowledge. Anyway....just wanted you to know that there are alot of MT clubs that also teach JKD and Filipino weapons. And are fully certified and capable of doing so.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Sabaki]

I agree with some of the advice that everyone has given Judo-kid about cross training.

I think it is good to have a base MA to build on, but don't delude yourself into thinking that one MA will cut it if you are looking to have a good rounded set of skills for fighting without rules.

Being a basketball fan I like this example.

A basketball player always has a position on his team, some like the forwards drive to the hoop, they try to score in close. Other players like the guards score from outside.

So these players specialise but they can also dribble, pass, rebound, lay-up or shoot from a distance as to not let their team down in any situation that arises. They have no weaknesses but they do have particular strengths.

I think it is the same in MA. It is good to have strengths e.g. infighting, grappling, long-range kicking etc. but do not neglect your other skills so you can handle whatever situation arises.

What do you guys think?

[sammy3170]

If people say that Judo is a watered down art from JuJutsu then Muay Thai is watered down in exactly the same way. It is a competition based art which was developed from Krabi Krabong (forgive the spelling if it is incorrect) which has the same lineage as most martial arts that being it has started in China and been developed and refined is someones own special way in the Asian countries around and in Thailand. Now I'm not saying that it isn't a good art as it produces some phenominal fighters and the training is hard but it is as I said a variation of a different art with competition in mind.

So that aerobic kickboxing comment was way off and not worth commenting on.

Just some thoughts
Cheers
Sammy

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Sabaki

I agree with some of the advice that everyone has given Judo-kid about cross training.

I think it is good to have a base MA to build on, but don't delude yourself into thinking that one MA will cut it if you are looking to have a good rounded set of skills for fighting without rules.

Being a basketball fan I like this example.

A basketball player always has a position on his team, some like the forwards drive to the hoop, they try to score in close. Other players like the guards score from outside.

So these players specialise but they can also dribble, pass, rebound, lay-up or shoot from a distance as to not let their team down in any situation that arises. They have no weaknesses but they do have particular strengths.

I think it is the same in MA. It is good to have strengths e.g. infighting, grappling, long-range kicking etc. but do not neglect your other skills so you can handle whatever situation arises.

What do you guys think?

I don't know, I see the point in it, but I just think if your art is well rounded, then mastering your system is of much greater consiquence then learning basic moves from several.

I like the basketball analogy, but in practice, everyone does the same drills as far as layups, running, handleing, ect. But, only the oustide guys practice 3 pointers, practice intense dribbling, also only the centers, or low post guys work on drop steps, blocking out, ect. There is no need for a center to waste his/her time workign on long shots.


Just my opinion,
7sm

[MartialArtist]

What about football?

Linemen, recievers, RB's, tight-ends...

Linemen are the best at blocking. Recievers are usually the best at running their routes and catching. RB's w/ reading holes, running, sometimes going out for catches, etc. Tight-ends have to block, run, and catch. The tight-end is well-rounded, but wouldn't be as good in terms of individual aspects like running, etc.

Or on defense...

Corners, S or F safety, LBers, D-Line

Some may be more rounded like the free or strong safety, but will not be the best in an individual aspect.

A boxer would be a great punches as that's what he focuses on. A military TKD is more rounded as it has grappling, striking of all aspects, but won't be the best as they're focusing on different things.

[Bod]

Muay Thai specializes in stand up
This is what I meant. I was trying to say that you can look at it both ways. Muay Thai is not really watered down, just specialised, although you could argue that since it is a ring art it is 'watered down'. I would disagree. Muay Thai simply specialises in a particular type of training to make it possible to practise at full strength without killing the other guy. Pretty much like Judo does.

At the same time though, you can say that you are not looking at a 'complete' art. You have to balance that with the benifits it brings. The main benefit in ring arts is that you learn certain attacking skills well. The defensive skills are usually a small subset of good defensive skills.

For example a Judo player only learns to defend against falling. This is pretty poor overall defence, but that way he can learn to attack hard, because his partner can defend with reasonable ease. Similarly in Muay Thai, because the attacks are limited (specialised) it is possible to defend against what would normally be deadly attacks, thus it is possible to attack full strength.

My argument is that these arts (ring arts) are watered down so that they can be toughened up! Crazy huh?

That is why I wouldn't recommend you studied a ring art alone, even though ring arts are invaluable. A less specialised art should teach you more rounded defence, and footwork for multiple attackers etc. You need to know the limitations of your system, and either train with them in mind, or compensate from outside the system.

[Sabaki]

Martial Artist - Yes, that football example is another good analogy. But then again here in New Zealand we play rugby :D but I have watched football and understand what you mean. I'd really like to try American football, it looks like a lot of fun.

7starmantis - I understand what you are saying. But do you think that your one style is seriously going to be enough. I mean I don't know what style you do but I have never come across a system / style or whatever that gives you the advantage in every aspect of realistic fighting. What style/s do you train in?

I agree that if you cross train too heavily or too early you are liable to spread yourself thin but if you have already developed a strength in a particular area then I would see it as necessary to develop a good understanding of all other areas so that you at least familiarise yourself with these areas.

Remember, in basketball and football you are allowed to choose your position, in fighting it is not so simple. You cannot simply say "hey I do such and such an art and we only fight at long range so stop trying to shoot in and take me down!".

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Sabaki

7starmantis - I understand what you are saying. But do you think that your one style is seriously going to be enough. I mean I don't know what style you do but I have never come across a system / style or whatever that gives you the advantage in every aspect of realistic fighting. What style/s do you train in?

I agree that if you cross train too heavily or too early you are liable to spread yourself thin but if you have already developed a strength in a particular area then I would see it as necessary to develop a good understanding of all other areas so that you at least familiarise yourself with these areas.

Remember, in basketball and football you are allowed to choose your position, in fighting it is not so simple. You cannot simply say "hey I do such and such an art and we only fight at long range so stop trying to shoot in and take me down!".

I train in 7 Star Praying Mantis Kung Fu. I have never seen a situation where I didn't have an advantage in a realistic fight with my system. Mantis focuses on quick and effective hand techniques. We don't use high kicks, and we focus heavily on very small areas. There are several Chin Na-esq techniques, while we have the techniques of plucking and sticking. I'm not trying to sit here and say my art is the best, I just believe that the more I "master" my system the more I do not need to cross train.

I don't think cross training to, "familuraize yourself" with different systems is needed if you spend the time masterin your art. "familiarising" yourself to other systems is only going to create a problem with making your system instinct. And most of the time in basketball or football your position is chosen for you based on your athletic ability, size, strength ect. I was just using those as examples. I don't believe you can chose your fight, but if your masters at your art, you will be rady for any attack.

7sm

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by 7starmantis



I'm not trying to sit here and say my art is the best, I just believe that the more I "master" my system the more I do not need to cross train.

7sm

I feel the same way about kenpo. The more I learn about it, and do it, the less I feel a need to go elsewhere and fill in so-called-gaps. People tend to claim that kenpo lacks grappling techniques. Actually there are several techniques that include grappling moves (Squatting sacrifice, for example), but a lot of kenpo is learning how to get a good, solid base stance, so you don't get taken down. I've done a bit of judo, and what I learned there was basically, if a 130 pound female gets taken down by a 250 pound male, the match is over, so I devote my attention to not getting taken down to begin with.

There is no "perfect" art. I feel the same way about choosing a martial arts that I do about choosing a religion. My art works for me and is the path I choose to follow. A different art may be more suitable for someone else, and everyone needs to look really hard at what they are doing and what they want to get out of the martial arts, analyze, and make the choice that is best for them.

:asian:

respectfully,

nightingale

[7starmantis]

Exactly! a woman gets taken down and its pretty much over, regardless. That is why if you truly master your system, you can avoid getting taken down at all. Now, people allways argue this by saying, no one is perfect and you might get taken down. Well, this is tru, but by the same token, if your not perfect and you get taken down even if you are great at grappling you may still be injured. The point is to avoid injury completely. If you have "mastered" those techniques, you are much less likely to be in that situation. And like you said, most systems do touch on grappling, just don't focus on it, simply because you shouldn't be taken down at all.


7sm

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by nightingale8472



I've done a bit of judo, and what I learned there was basically, if a 130 pound female gets taken down by a 250 pound male, the match is over, so I devote my attention to not getting taken down to begin with.




So if you get tackled from the side and taken down your base means nothing. It isn't important how to master a grappling art and submit but choking out or breaking a limb to stand back up is very important. So don't pass off Kenpo as the ultimate and that Kenpoka never get taken down because that is just wishful thinking.

Cheers
Sammy

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by sammy3170



So if you get tackled from the side and taken down your base means nothing. It isn't important how to master a grappling art and submit but choking out or breaking a limb to stand back up is very important. So don't pass off Kenpo as the ultimate and that Kenpoka never get taken down because that is just wishful thinking.

Cheers
Sammy

I think the idea is to not get tackled from the side.

[Nightingale]

I never said that kenpo is ultimate or that people that do kenpo never get taken down. I'm saying that kenpo teaches ways that make you much more difficult to take down. more difficult does not mean impossible.

Kenpo has good points and not so good points, just like any other art. I flat out said in my post that there is no such thing as a perfect art and that everyone needs to find the art that suits them best, so I am obviously not trying to pass kenpo off as ultimate. Please read other's posts more carefully before jumping to erroneous conclusions.

respectfully,
Nightingale

[Damian Mavis]

I think you guys are kidding yourselves.... and I mean that in the least insulting way if that is possible. The stereotypical attitude of ALL martial artists is that their art is all you really need if you just wait long enough to master it. For crying out loud I hear the same thing from thousands of Tae Kwon Do artists and we all agree that TKD is not a complete street defense art right?! Never the less I hear colleagues, students and instructors from all over the world spout the same stuff you guys are saying and it makes me cringe.

Who do you guys train with? Nice amiable partners that don't resist too hard to let you accomplish your techniques? I'm not trying to sound like an ass but I just dont see how you can think that any art is good enough for any street confrontation if you can only master it. I'm 165 pounds... I train with 250 pound muscle bound, unforgiving, nonrelinquishing and unstoppable freaks. No amount of "good stances" or fast hand work is going to save me omg. My only chances are to maybe gouge his eye, get a really solid shot to his groin or bite him really bad because when he comes charging in my strikes are completely innefective, my strength is absolutely no match for his and if he can run faster than me then I am going down and he is going to have his way with me.

I always train for the worst possible scenario and it is a daily wake up call, I will never feel 100% capable of handling myself in a street confrontation no mattter what level of expertise in any given art and I have easily won a few fights on the street but all that tells me is I got lucky that day. I don't know why I even posted this, I probably just made you mad and I'm sorry.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[KennethKu]

Mr Mavis

That is the most honest post I have ever read. My respect, Sir.

I feel the same way about MA, but I thought that was only because I suck .


Ken

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

I think you guys are kidding yourselves.... and I mean that in the least insulting way if that is possible. The stereotypical attitude of ALL martial artists is that their art is all you really need if you just wait long enough to master it. For crying out loud I hear the same thing from thousands of Tae Kwon Do artists and we all agree that TKD is not a complete street defense art right?! Never the less I hear colleagues, students and instructors from all over the world spout the same stuff you guys are saying and it makes me cringe.
You are deffinatly entitled to your opinion. I don't think I have an attitude that relates to ANY stereotype. I'm not saying you have to "wait long enough to master it", I'm not saying anything about time, what I'm talking about is technique and understanding. I do not study TKD, I never have and so your statements do not pertain to me. I've had my share of street fights, I've had my share of sparring matches, and I've had my share of emergency defense against really crazy folks, none of which I felt I needed anything more to help me against them. (and afterwards, neither did the attackers!)


Originally posted by Damian Mavis

Who do you guys train with? Nice amiable partners that don't resist too hard to let you accomplish your techniques? I'm not trying to sound like an ass but I just don't see how you can think that any art is good enough for any street confrontation if you can only master it. I'm 165 pounds... I train with 250 pound muscle bound, unforgiving, nonrelinquishing and unstoppable freaks. No amount of "good stances" or fast hand work is going to save me omg. My only chances are to maybe gouge his eye, get a really solid shot to his groin or bite him really bad because when he comes charging in my strikes are completely innefective, my strength is absolutely no match for his and if he can run faster than me then I am going down and he is going to have his way with me.

How is it you know so much about who I train with? I train iron arm, and iron shin with guys twice my size and muscle strength, and I'm 6' 2" 205lbs. I began MA when I was 7 years old, that's almost 18 years of training, not nearly as much as some, but I have never in all those years trained with a MA who don't resist or allow me to accomplish my technique. Its always been about furthering my skill. I agree with you that a 250 pound guy charges you, your stances and strikes are most likely not going to matter a bit. But what if you weren't there when he got to you? What if you were suddenly beside him with a nice trip? The system I study, I fell is all I need, I don't know about any other systems. I can tell you that yes, there are some that are not complete, but if you are studying a complete system, why try and clutter your mind with "Extra" stuff, that you are most likely going to cover in your system anyway, if you really understood the concepts.


Originally posted by Damian Mavis

I always train for the worst possible scenario and it is a daily wake up call, I will never feel 100% capable of handling myself in a street confrontation no mattter what level of expertise in any given art and I have easily won a few fights on the street but all that tells me is I got lucky that day. I don't know why I even posted this, I probably just made you mad and I'm sorry.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
I'm all about training for the worst scenario, and I applaud your training efforts. However, because you train hard, and in several system and are a (I am presuming here, because I don't know you) good fighter, doesn't mean what I or anyone else does is inferior to you or your training. You get mad at people who say, "My art is better than your art", and yet you are essentially doing the same thing because you train hard. Have you ever trained against a mantis practitioner? Have you ever trained against me? No, so please don't assume you know my training regiment, or my skill.

7sm

[bscastro]

I don't think anyone can say they are able to 100% defend themselves in any situation. I think that different types of training can improve your chances of surviving an encounter.

No matter what style you train in, in order to improve these chances, you have to have mainly one thing...progressive resistance.

Like Damian said, if your partner is letting you pull off your moves easily, you will not pull them off against someone who doesn't want you too. Of course, there are different levels to this, e.g. if you are a total beginner as opposed to someone who's done it for a while, but eventually, you have to practice with progressively higher levels of resistance.

Cheers,
Bryan

[Damian Mavis]

7starmantis, I wasn't directing all my comments to you, it was kind of a general post about alot of peoples statements. I wasn't telling you how you train I was actually asking you. I'm also not saying that I train better than anyone else..I think my message was more like be humble and never get too confident as it might interfere with your willingness to learn more. I love martial arts, all martial arts...I'm like a sponge and want to soak it all up. The more I can learn the better, I would be pretty miserable learning only one martial art. In all honesty I'm not really concerned with how men train, if they are kidding themselves (which I'm not saying you in particular are) it's not nearly as troubling to me as when a woman kids herself about her training.

Nightingales post is what sparked mine..... throughout my life I have discovered that almost ALL the women I have loved and cared for have been raped and or assaulted (from my closest family members to friends and girlfirends...some of them over 12 times). So when I see a woman post about their training and I feel that she's not taking reality as seriously as she could I get a little sad and in this case I said something.... and probably pissed her off for sure now, I'm on a roll! It was just the statement about how good kenpo stances could save you from being taken down that disheartened me Nightingale in case your wondering. When a man attacks a woman it is brutal and viscious and overpowering.... no amount of good stance work will keep you on your feet once he gets his hands on you. I'm of course thinking of a situation where a man outweighs a woman by like 80 pounds at least.

Nightingale you said that if a 250 pound man takes down a 130 pound woman then the match is over... if you meant in the sense of tournaments than I'm sorry but if you mean on the street I have to completely disagree with you. Fighting on the ground is one of the most important things for women to work on when practicing self defence. Men don't "fight" women, it's almost completely unheard of. They usually try to catch a woman unawares and want to sexually assault a woman. That usually means grabbing you and taking you down before you get a chance to react properly. To me that means the majority of self defence for women should be done on the ground. And I don't mean grappling either. Ramming you fingers into a mans eyesockets until you reach brain or visciously biting his throat or face and not letting go until you've done serious damage or getting a hold of his scrotum and twisting it like a stress relief squeeze toy are the kind of techniques that make a difference when you are completely outweighed and overpowered. Sorry for being so graphic but this is reality as I know it. Take what I say as seriously as you want Nightingale or totally disregard it as the ravings of a lunatic. I won't be insulted if you think I'm full of crap.

Anyway, 7starmantis I wasn't assuming I know how you train or telling you that you don't train as well as I do. I apologise if you felt that was what I was doing.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Zujitsuka]

Good day everyone. I have a few questions:

Would you go to an Italian restaurant for lo mein?

How about an Mexican restaurant for a canoli?

Can you get a buffalo burger at a vegetarian restaurant?

My point is this - I am of the opinion that no one martial art has all of the answers. All arts to my knowledge have an emphasis on one particular range of combat. Of course there may be a particular martial art that you are extremely passionate about and have a great affinity for because that range of combat is your comfort zone. However, I think that it is a mistake to present one's art as a full-service martial supermarket. It can be interpreted as disrepectful to other arts and their training methods. Also, it can cause those who do not practice your particular martial art to not respect it - what comes around will go around.

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

[B] In all honesty I'm not really concerned with how men train, if they are kidding themselves (which I'm not saying you in particular are) it's not nearly as troubling to me as when a woman kids herself about her training.

You are not in the studio with me and you have absolutely no idea what I do as training. Please do not assume.


Nightingales post is what sparked mine..... throughout my life I have discovered that almost ALL the women I have loved and cared for have been raped and or assaulted (from my closest family members to friends and girlfirends...some of them over 12 times). So when I see a woman post about their training and I feel that she's not taking reality as seriously as she could I get a little sad and in this case I said something.... and probably pissed her off for sure now, I'm on a roll! It was just the statement about how good kenpo stances could save you from being taken down that disheartened me Nightingale in case your wondering.

A good stance can delay a takedown by a fraction of a second, and sometimes that's all you need. and yes, saying that you've pissed me off would be putting it mildly.


When a man attacks a woman it is brutal and viscious and overpowering.... no amount of good stance work will keep you on your feet once he gets his hands on you. I'm of course thinking of a situation where a man outweighs a woman by like 80 pounds at least.

Nightingale you said that if a 250 pound man takes down a 130 pound woman then the match is over... if you meant in the sense of tournaments than I'm sorry but if you mean on the street I have to completely disagree with you. Fighting on the ground is one of the most important things for women to work on when practicing self defence. Men don't "fight" women, it's almost completely unheard of. They usually try to catch a woman unawares and want to sexually assault a woman. That usually means grabbing you and taking you down before you get a chance to react properly. To me that means the majority of self defence for women should be done on the ground. And I don't mean grappling either. Ramming you fingers into a mans eyesockets until you reach brain or visciously biting his throat or face and not letting go until you've done serious damage or getting a hold of his scrotum and twisting it like a stress relief squeeze toy are the kind of techniques that make a difference when you are completely outweighed and overpowered. Sorry for being so graphic but this is reality as I know it. Take what I say as seriously as you want Nightingale or totally disregard it as the ravings of a lunatic. I won't be insulted if you think I'm full of crap.


Damian, I assure you, I take reality very seriously. Frankly, all the grappling in the world isn't going to do you a damn bit of good if your legs are pinned and you can't move your hands because he's got both your wrists and you're outmuscled, outweighed, and completely outmatched. If the odds are that uneven, there isn't a damn thing you can do except scream. Believe me. I've been there.

[Damian Mavis]

I'm sorry your so angry, keep in mind this is a martial arts forum to discuss this kind of thing and not a personal attack of any kind. I'm also sorry you've been in such a bad situation yourself... that only reaffirms my feeling that women, ALL women need to train in some form of self defence and it saddens me when so many put their head in the sand and think that violence will never effect them. And if it never does than lucky them! Kudos to you for taking self defence so seriously.

A good stance isnt going to delay anything at all when grabbed unawares... your already going down with no time to change your stance or you've been picked up off your feet. The thing you said about your legs and hands being pinned was right on, no amount of grappling is going to save you at that point. And your right, screaming is one of the most effective self defence techniques available for womens self defence. The only other time to use the techniques I mentioned above (which didn't include grappling at all anyway so not sure why you mentioned that) is when he needs a hand free to undress his victim. If he's able to completely pin you and nullify all your limbs while still able to raise himself up to get into a position to undress and rape his victim he really knows his poop. Most of the recountings of rape stories invlolve the attacker becoming vulnerable while trying to undress his victim. Of course whether a woman takes advantage of that vulnerability is another matter....I use words like most and alot because I know that it doesnt happen every time.

Again this is a forum to discuss this kind of thing, you seem very angry and I'm not trying to deliberately make you hate me heh... just discussing.

P.S. to 7starmantis and Nightingale.... we make judgements and opinions about your training based on what you tell us here.... telling us not to assume things when you just stated something about stances will make me discuss stances with you...its not assuming is it?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Nightingale]

Damian -

the key to self defense:

DONT BE CAUGHT UNAWARES. If you don't know someone's there before they attack, there isn't a whole lot of anything you can do.

With regards to stances and takedowns.... you'd be more than welcome to come on down to the studio I train at, and we can go over this in a practical application. There is no way we can settle this debate online.

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis


P.S. to 7starmantis and Nightingale.... we make judgements and opinions about your training based on what you tell us here.... telling us not to assume things when you just stated something about stances will make me discuss stances with you...its not assuming is it?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Actually I didn't say anything about my training, so you saying anything about it is an assumption. And we ALL know what happens when you make an assumption right? You make and ass out of U and mption.


7sm

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by 7starmantis


Actually I didn't say anything about my training, so you saying anything about it is an assumption. And we ALL know what happens when you make an assumption right? You make and ass out of U and mption.


7sm

ROTFLMAO, 7SM!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rolleyes: :rofl: :rofl:

[Jay Bell]

Wow...a lot's gone on since I read this thread last.

Stances - Stances do not help you with aggressive attackers or being taken to the ground, movement does. If someone comes at you and you are left unaware *that* is when it's over. Taking a stance takes time...time that people don't have when being taken by surprise.

Groundfighting - To say that it's over when a female is taken down by a male is rediculous. I've seen female grapplers that can mop up people much larger and stronger then they. It's called technique.

Not only is there a lot of assumption going on (My grandfather used to say the same thing about it :D), there is also a lot of gross generalization and stereotyping happening.

Bod:

Well, Judo is a watered down martial art, and the same could be said for Mauy Thai.

To say such a rediculous statement means you haven't met a Judo or Muay Thai teacher worth their own ass.

Nightingale:

I've done a bit of judo, and what I learned there was basically, if a 130 pound female gets taken down by a 250 pound male, the match is over, so I devote my attention to not getting taken down to begin with.

Reading this it seems that your training in Judo wasn't beneficial...and I'm sorry that such training gave you a jaded opinion of how effective Judo can be when technique is deeply researched and gained.

My short lived Judo career was training under a gradutate of the Korean Judo University. His skill, understanding of the human body and technique were flawless. There was nothing of sport about it. Females did just fine under him...and their ne waza was some of the strongest I've dealt with.

[Damian Mavis]

I thought it was dont assume because you make an ass out of you and me... ass u me.... haha ah well......

"I train iron arm, and iron shin" 7starmantis...

"DONT BE CAUGHT UNAWARES. If you don't know someone's there before they attack, there isn't a whole lot of anything you can do." I'm sorry I disagree so vehemently with what your instructor is teaching you, I teach the exact opposite of this to my students. And there are tons of times you will be caught unawares. But maybe you won't, I'm not that confident in my abilities to see every attack coming, if you are thats great.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[J-kid]

Anyone here who thinks that a good stance would be able to prevent a takedown is not just fooling themselfs is also asking for alot of trouble. See how i do train in Judo/Jujutsu/Muay Thai. I know about grappling and fighting stances and can say first hand you need both to be a good fighter. I respect all your post , But your idea is flawed 7sm for thinking that your art can take anyones art have you ever battled with a gracie i would like you to say that you can take them with your kung fu. I am not trying to be rude but thats what 1000s of MAs that trained only in one martial art said to the BJJ guys when they came over from Brazil well guess what the BJJ guys handed the KUng fu guys the TKD guys the boxers the wrestlers kickboxers the karate etc. THEY ALL GOT THERE asses handed to them by there art. Its only because BJJ works on standing arts weaknesses. YOu need to cross train in order to become good at fighting to say that your art is gonna be able to handle anything the world throws at you is just Fooling your self. I Cross train because i realize this because i UFC fight and i see my weakness and inprove on it i suggest you do the same thing and pull your minds out of the Gutter. Your friend Judo-kid!!!!!

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

I thought it was dont assume because you make an ass out of you and me... ass u me.... haha ah well......

"I train iron arm, and iron shin" 7starmantis...

"DONT BE CAUGHT UNAWARES. If you don't know someone's there before they attack, there isn't a whole lot of anything you can do." I'm sorry I disagree so vehemently with what your instructor is teaching you, I teach the exact opposite of this to my students. And there are tons of times you will be caught unawares. But maybe you won't, I'm not that confident in my abilities to see every attack coming, if you are thats great.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Kinda weird you just threw in a little misquote of me just in the middle of your post? What I was saying about iron arm is that I train with guys twice my size and muscle strength, meaning not against easy non-resisting opponents. About being caught unawares, its not that you know someone is hiding behind that wall, its that you are trained to the point that your body in "aware" and in a situation like that, you can react quickly enough to thwart the attack. You disagree with what my instructor is teaching me? What is that exactly? What do you disagree with so "vehemently"?


Originally posted by Judo-kid
I respect all your post , But your idea is flawed 7sm for thinking that your art can take anyones art have you ever battled with a gracie i would like you to say that you can take them with your kung fu. I am not trying to be rude but thats what 1000s of MAs that trained only in one martial art said to the BJJ guys when they came over from Brazil well guess what the BJJ guys handed the KUng fu guys the TKD guys the boxers the wrestlers kickboxers the karate etc. THEY ALL GOT THERE asses handed to them by there art.
Its deffinatly not MY idea, if you talk to any advanced student of most high systems, they all say the same thing. Its because the system is so large and complete, it touches on those areas in the system itself. I have never trained with someone in the Gracie family, no. I have sparred against grapplers, its a technique that you don't understand and can't be explained over the internet. I don't know why you want me to say I could take a Gracie, this thread is not about me personally. Firstly, we are not comparing styles here, and to say that one person of this style defeated one person from this style, means absolutely nothing. When you have had more experience in the MA you will understand that completely, anyone can beat anyone on any given night. All that I said to spark this was that I didn't feel the need to cross train in many different arts. If you read my profile and my past posts you will see that I have not only trained in one art, but I do not cross train in arts that are completely different from each other. With my kung fu I do Chin na, tai chi, wing chun, they all relate. Just because I don't feel the neccessity to train in bjj and kung fu, why does that threaten you ? I feel extremely confident in my abilities to defend myslef against any attack, why should you feel threatened by that? There is a form my system that when you have completed all 16, you have learned to defend against any attack. Why do you have to compare my system to yours?


7sm

[sammy3170]

I think everything that I was going to say has been said. I must say that it is suicidal to work on the assumption that you won't get taken down. Why not just make sure as many bases are covered as possible. Where I train we cover both grappling and stand up fighting with total emphasis on self (life) defence. I am not going to go on about this as my opinions are clear.

Cheers
Sammy

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by sammy3170

I think everything that I was going to say has been said. I must say that it is suicidal to work on the assumption that you won't get taken down. Why not just make sure as many bases are covered as possible. Where I train we cover both grappling and stand up fighting with total emphasis on self (life) defence. I am not going to go on about this as my opinions are clear.

Cheers
Sammy

Thats what I am trying to make you guys understand. If your system touches on all the bases, then what is the need to cross train? I'm not saying you will never get taken down, thats like saying as a grappler you will never loose on the ground. The poitn is to win right? My point is to not get taken down. I know several techniques for ground fighting, but I have never in a real life situation had to use them. I train with them, my system uses ground techniques just like most high systems do. I don't know what the fuss is all about.


7sm

[Bod]

Re my comment on 'watered-down' Judo

Jaybell:To say such a ridiculous statement means you haven't met a Judo or Muay Thai teacher worth their own ass. I have met such teachers. And I have great respect for them. I was trying to say that there were great advantages to such 'incomplete' systems. I study Judo very hard under a 7th degree (Kodokan) blackbelt. I started because I didn't know how to avoid the 'bumrush' attack, and I wanted to know. O-Sensei Kano carefully watered down the vast amount of jujutsu techniques, to ones that could be trained safely and at full strength.

The most important thing about sport training - like Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, Rugby - is you learn to get back up after taking big knock from resisting opponents. Still, such arts leave a big gap that 'complete' systems can fill. Also, more traditional systems often have the answers to problems you wouldn't learn to solve in the sport system and warn you of the perils of playing 'by the rules'. Sometimes they'll help you understand why the more traditional approach to a sport art makes sense.

For example, in Judo the over-the-top, dominating grip is rather fashionable. Many newer teachers teach it as a must, while older teachers think it is a despicable practice.

I thought abuot it and figured that in a streetfight this grip exposes you to a punch under the armpit, which could effectively put you out of contention.

I didn't mean to cause offense by using the phrase 'watered down', I was parrotting a phrase used earlier, in order to argue that specialised has advantages.

[bscastro]

Originally posted by 7starmantis



Thats what I am trying to make you guys understand. If your system touches on all the bases, then what is the need to cross train?



This is a little sidebar from the main discussion...Even if your system touches on all the bases (e.g. groundfighting, kickboxing range, trapping/clinch range, weaponry) sometimes you might want to see what other styles/systems have to offer. For example, Silat has groundfighting, but it is very different than BJJ. In any case, you don't have to cross train, but you might want to see a different perspective. You might also find it enjoyable! :)

I think it's not about needing to cross-train as wanting to cross-train for variety and fun. That's why I cross-train partly.

Cheers,
Bryan

[KennethKu]

I understanding this is NOT the most glorious techniques, but when you got taken down and pinned, don't forget another weapon you have left : TEETH. BITE!!!!!!! (the good thing about JKD is, nothing is too low to use. lol )

[Damian Mavis]

"Kinda weird you just threw in a little misquote of me just in the middle of your post? What I was saying about iron arm is that I train with guys twice my size and muscle strength, meaning not against easy non-resisting opponents. About being caught unawares, its not that you know someone is hiding behind that wall, its that you are trained to the point that your body in "aware" and in a situation like that, you can react quickly enough to thwart the attack. You disagree with what my instructor is teaching me? What is that exactly? What do you disagree with so "vehemently"?"

7starmantis my friend you take me far too seriously, I was speaking to Nightingale not to you. I directly quoted you in response to you saying you didn't mention your training when in fact you had and I was being silly and kind of pulling a "yes you did!" The rest of my post was in relation to Nightingales post and was in no way directed at you. Truth is I don't actually disagree with you, but I like a good discussion. I would love to train what you are training. I myself practice similar techniques involving evasion and sidestepping to get around my attacker, sometimes with a trip, sometimes a strike, but I will admit that I don't put as much faith in them as you do. That is why I would love to practice your art and see if I could pick up something brand new that really worked for me.

And yes I know all about not being caught unawares, its the best self defence training I can offer women besides the" not looking like an easy target or victim" to hopefully avoid the whole self defence situation before it even begins. I am always "alert", always ready... I think to practice martial arts your whole life you naturally heighten your awareness and keep an eye out for possible problems without living in a state of paranoia. Kind of like an easy going "oh look, that guy behind me is closing the distance and I see someone poking out from the alleyway ahead of me." Not like I'm going to "ninja flip" on them or anything but I'm aware of suspicious behaviour and if anything did happen I would react quicker than if caught completely by surprise. Like I said earlier though, I train for the worst scenario and to me that involves getting jumped completely by surprise.

When referring to Nightingale I said I disagree vehemently with what her instructor has taught her in relation to her statement "DONT BE CAUGHT UNAWARES. If you don't know someone's there before they attack, there isn't a whole lot of anything you can do." I feel that there will be times you are caught completely unawares and that there is in fact much you can do to save the situation. Her instructor seems to be teaching her that its all over at that point and I strongly disagree. I teach womens self defence for the average woman, not a trained martial artist. So I'm not counting on their ninja skills to spot potential trouble before it happens, I'm teaching them what to do and how to fight when they are already grabbed and going down. To teach women with no training like they can do more than what they are truly capable of is actually dangerous. Your giving them a false sense of safety and reality. I would probably teach trained martial artist women more for before getting grabbed and taken down but really stress the groundfighting skills for the worst possible scenario so they are fully prepared.

KennethKu, I agree biting is one of the best self defence weapons for women, even for me if I felt threatened enough.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by KennethKu

I understanding this is NOT the most glorious techniques, but when you got taken down and pinned, don't forget another weapon you have left : TEETH. BITE!!!!!!! (the good thing about JKD is, nothing is too low to use. lol )

Thats what I love about JKD!! Its realistic!

Damian Mavis, That was the first time I had mentioned anythign about my training, I mentioned it because it had become important in the conversation. I do have to agree with Nightingale about the take downs though. I mean, do you seriously think a 5' 4" 100 pound woman could pull any technique off after being tackled bya 250 pound attacker? Maybe I'm nieve, but it seems to me, all her force on any grappling move would be unsuccessfull. If a 250 pound guy sat on me, it would be little tough and I've trained in MA and weight lifting. I just don't see her pulling off a submission or anything. If I'm wrong, tell me of a technique that would work, I would love to know it. I just think that when grabbed there are reverse Chin Na techniques that will relase you from the grab, better than trying to "duke it out" on the ground. Most attackers aren't goign to pull off a full run football tackle on a victim and expect to get up not injured themselves. I mean, the streets are pretty unforgiving whne hitting them full force. ITs just my opnion though.
I don't mean to take you so seriously, I just really love these dicussions as well. Sometimes I'm just playing "Devils advocate" jsut to get disucssions going, so just take me worht a grain of salt.


7sm

[Damian Mavis]

Ok well now I'm a little disappointed in you and Nightingale because you 2 keep bringing up grappling and I never said anything about grappling, makes me wonder if your reading my posts! heh. Grappling for an untrained woman is ridiculous. Here is what I said 2 pages ago about womens self defence:

"To me that means the majority of self defence for women should be done on the ground. And I don't mean grappling either. Ramming you fingers into a mans eyesockets until you reach brain or visciously biting his throat or face and not letting go until you've done serious damage or getting a hold of his scrotum and twisting it like a stress relief squeeze toy are the kind of techniques that make a difference when you are completely outweighed and overpowered."

Grappling to me is best left for the experts, because a woman isn't strong enough or heavy enough to pull it off in a panicky situation as far as I'm concerned, not to mention having most of her grappling tools pinned down.... guess that means we totally agree on that.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[7starmantis]

Yeah looks like we do agree. I'm probably going to make someone mad now, but when I say grappling I was refering to ground fighting. I think eye gouging, testicle ripping:eek:, and all of those are very valid defense for women AND men. I just think alot of it should be done before hitting the ground, becasue like you said, most of her tools will be pinned.


7sm

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis



Grappling to me is best left for the experts, because a woman isn't strong enough or heavy enough to pull it off in a panicky situation as far as I'm concerned, not to mention having most of her grappling tools pinned down.... guess that means we totally agree on that.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD [/B]

That really is a naive and defeatist way of looking at things. Yes, a 100 pound woman is going to have a rough time on the ground with a big guy but there are plenty of techniques that can be taught and drilled to help her get out. Also if most of her grappling tools are pinned then it would be very difficult for her attacker to do anything but pin her so once he starts to concentrate on other things (rape etc) there are many openings which would allow her to pull off techniques. She doesn't necessarily have to pull off some intricate move as a Gracie would, just allow enough room to get up and run.

I know, lets not teach women to punch either as they may break their hand on their attackers face. We couldn't have that now could we.

As long as techniques are drilled enough to be fairly ingrained why assume that it is just women who get 'panicky'. Everyone is affected by the adrenal dump not just women. That sort of talk is just sexist and archaic.

Cheers
Sammy

[sammy3170]

Damien

For some one who lists the arts they practice as submission grappling I sincerely hope no women come to you for advice on it. You can't teach something you honestly don't think would work. But you do call it 'submission grappling' and submitting is not something you want to do in real life. Break, Choke and get the $#@% out of there. Sorry but I can't come to grips with what you are saying.

Cheers
Sammy

[Carbon]

I totally agree with sammy.

I mean 1 finger to the eye of an attacker will definately void his attention of you for atleast 30 seconds to a minute and if he doesn't strike 1 quick hit to the nose squeeze out and then run away.

I mean there are alot of things that can be done a knee to the balls is also acceptable.

[Damian Mavis]

Sammy sammy sammy.... I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for not reading my previous posts so I'll quote myself:

"I teach womens self defence for the average woman, not a trained martial artist. "

So keep in mind that everything I'm saying is coming from this perspective. I actually teach alot more to women that train in the martial arts. I might have one or 2 hours to show 20 women some self defence....everyone from the 200 pound 20 year old who loses her breath after 10 seconds of activity to the 70 year old fragile old lady...... so "I know, lets not teach women to punch either as they may break their hand on their attackers face. We couldn't have that now could we. " Your damn straight I'm not going to waste their time teaching them to punch for freaks sake haha. Do you understand where I'm coming from? And when I mention a panicky situation I'm talking about completely untrained women that might never have been exposed to violence in their lives and will absolutely freak out the first time it happens. I dont have time to teach them proper grappling or boxing and drill that technique into their brain in one hour of self defence training in their whole lives. I am not sexist and archaic and before you say crap like that please read the whole thread instead of taking one post out of context.

"To me that means the majority of self defence for women should be done on the ground. And I don't mean grappling either. Ramming you fingers into a mans eyesockets until you reach brain or visciously biting his throat or face and not letting go until you've done serious damage or getting a hold of his scrotum and twisting it like a stress relief squeeze toy are the kind of techniques that make a difference when you are completely outweighed and overpowered."

These are all gross motor skills techniques that can be easily taught in one hour to someone who will never train in martial arts or self defence again and successfully pull them off in a panicky situation. And I never said men don't get panicky for crying out loud! haha

Anyway Sammy I actually agree with your attitude as it pertains to teaching self defence to women that actually have the time to learn enough stuff but do you realise that theres no way in hell you can teach them what you are talking about in one hour? not realisticly at least to the point where they will actually use it when attacked... after only one hour of training with 20 other women demanding your attention in the same room. Hmmm?

That means when I say women cant effectively use grappling for self defence I mean the women in my example above. I think grappling is excellent for self defence when trained i.e. a certain level of expertise.... I don't mean grandmaster expertise. The women that take a one hour course simply dont have the time to learn grappling or chokes and bring them up to a realistic level.


Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[sammy3170]

No worries

I read as much as I could and obviously missed a few bits. I do think that one 1 hour self defence lesson by it's self is pretty much useless unless they drill it at home. When defending onesself you can't think back and try to remember what you've learned so it isn't only women who will struggle. Men in the same situation will do exactly the same thing.

Cheers
Sammy

[Aegis]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

.....have you ever battled with a gracie i would like you to say that you can take them with your kung fu. I am not trying to be rude but thats what 1000s of MAs that trained only in one martial art said to the BJJ guys when they came over from Brazil well guess what the BJJ guys handed the KUng fu guys the TKD guys the boxers the wrestlers kickboxers the karate etc. THEY ALL GOT THERE asses handed to them by there art. Its only because BJJ works on standing arts weaknesses.....

I'd also like to make a reappearence here. The reason BJJ has managed to "hand back their asses on a plate" is because they challenge under their own rules. BJJ is great for competition because they take people down to the floor and tie them up on the ground. However, try that in a street fight and you're likely to get your head smashed in by one of your attackers mates from behind.

Having trained in some BJJ then moved on to a modernised traditional form of Jujitsu (confused? I am!) I can say that the style I do would be far superior in a multiple attacker scenario than the usual teachings of BJJ. (when I say this, I mean for a low-ish grade fight, not having trained long enough to see what's on eg the dan grade syllabus in each style).

My point is this: just because a martail art can win in a controlled one-on-one situation DOES NOT make it effective in a street fight, or vice versa. Hence the Gracie Challenge should not be seen as the be all and end all of martail arts.



Having read through this, I can see that I sound much more full of myself than I intended..... Sorry if thispost p****s anyone off.

[Damian Mavis]

Your right Sammy, it might not help. But if I help just one woman out of a thousand and it saves her... then I can die a happy man. My job isnt to convince women to take more self defence it is to give them their one and only self defence course that they will ever attend (most people dont take self defence seriously and if I offer a free course a bunch show up and then are never heard from again). So I do what I can. And I never said men wouldnt be the same as women in the same situation I just don't give a flying freak about men's self defence quite frankly. As men we have to worry about getting beat up and slight chance of killed (which is pretty bad but very rare). The day men start raping other men once a minute of every hour of every day like they do women then I will put more thought into mens self defence.

AEGIS: also you have to take into account the fact that the Gracies ran the first couple of UFC's and they invited the worst strikers I have ever laid eyes on. They did not invite top notch strikers. I mean they were awful, not like the strikers you see today like Vitor Belfort. I have kept up with the evolution of the UFC type fighters and the Gracies would not get away with the same things today as they did then. And your right the rules conform to a one on one type fight.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Nightingale]

um... I don't want to sound stupid here, but who are the Gracies?

[Jay Bell]

The Gracies are the family that put together Gracie (Brazilian) Jiu Jitsu from Judo teachings of Count Koma in Brazil.

[Damian Mavis]

Yes and they are the originators of the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Challenge) that has spawned so many other no holds barred competitions. Royce Gracie was the first brother they put in the octagon and he beat everyone he went against. Not to take away from his skills but the strikers they invited were really crappy strikers the first couple of UFC's.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Jay Bell]

Keep in mind...the 'undefeated' quality that Royce once showed no longer exists.

[Damian Mavis]

You mean from Royce or from anyone? I think the Gracies stopped completely dominating when they started going against more skilled opponents (strikers and grapplers) and the art of NHB itself evolved and the fighters all became more well rounded. The strikers learned grappling and the grapplers learned striking.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[7starmantis]

Someone told me the UFC was heading towards more standup fighting in its rules. Something about some limits on time for grappling and things? Anyone heard that ?

7sm

[Damian Mavis]

Yes the popularity was going down because people did not find watching Royce Gracie and others hug another man on the mat for upwards of 30 minutes with no break very exciting. Royce would tire out his opponent over a long period of time and then take advantage of his fatigue (which makes perfect sense) and make him tap out. So nowadays alot of the competitions involve a time period to do something while on the mat and if nothing is going on they make you stand up again. It's not really to move towards a more standup ruleset its just they dont want a long period of time where no action is going on....it's all about the ratings.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[KennethKu]

LMAO! :D Oh Good! For a while there I thought it was just me having some sort of homophobia attack or something. lol

[Abbax8]

With the greatest respect to all styles and to all MA's here, I just need to get on my soap box. The discussion of there is no complete art is not entirely true. What is true is that the way some arts are taught, they become less complete than they truly were when started. As a judoka, I will confine my comments to judo. Judo- IMO- is a complete art when studied and practiced as originally developed by Dr. Kano. It has striking techniques, throwing techniques and grappling techniques. It affords the student a chance to practice in safety and control through kata, and also against a totally uncooperative partner in randori. While it is true there is no punches in randori- that is not the same to say there are no strikes. Grip fighting is is just one or two steps below striking. Foot sweeps and high sweeping for harai goshi, etc. feel and hurt like a kick. If one chooses to train solely for medals and competition, then that is their loss. They are missing the great versatility that is Kodokan Judo.


Peace
Dennis

[sammy3170]

I would actually see one of the gracies fight Maurice Smith. Who can do some grappling but is an awesome striker. But I couldn't see it happening now as the UFC's have weight divisions and I can't name one heavyweight Gracie (maybe Rickson).

As for Kodokan Judo(don't get me wrong I love Judo) being complete just because it has certain types of techniques. It still practices pins (which are of limited or no value on the street) and the strikes are similar to that of Aikido and have very little value as far as hitting an attacker in defence goes apart from maybe a couple of strikes before attempting a throw. If you look at things like that the Ryukyu Kempo is a very complete art also we cover Strikes, locks, grappling(standing and on the ground) and throws. We also do Kata which has all of these elements to them. I'm not saying we do kata laying down but in katas such a Naihanchi and Kusanku (to name a random couple) have all sorts of techniques which aren't visible to the untrained eye (me included) including grappling and throwing techniques.

How much must a style cover each area for it to be considered complete?

Cheers
Sammy

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Abbax8

and also against a totally uncooperative partner in randori.


Peace
Dennis

Judo randori resembles street fighting even less than sparring does. I have never seen two people even come close to wrestling like they do in randori on the street just as I haven't seen two people bounce around trying to hit each other (tapping or full contact). It just doesnt happen.

One method we use where I train is called pooling. We get divided in to groups and put on our body gear, head gear and nut cups etc. One group is in the middle just chatting or what ever when a person from the outside group comes in and picks a fight or just trys to belt someone from the inside group. It's then on for young and old. The idea being for the middle group to pool in the centre again back to back looking out for each other and not going off by themselves. The only thing asked is that because of the body and head gear that when the outside attackers feel that the got hit good and would have gone down they are to back off because it is difficult to judge when padded. It is fun but it has a very real and chaotic feel to it just like a confrontation in the street.

Cheers
Sammy

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by sammy3170

If you look at things like that the Ryukyu Kempo is a very complete art also we cover Strikes, locks, grappling(standing and on the ground) and throws. We also do Kata which has all of these elements to them
Cheers
Sammy

I hope this doesn't turn into a "My art is better than your art" posting.



7sm

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by 7starmantis



I hope this doesn't turn into a "My art is better than your art" posting.



7sm

Not at all I was just using what I said as an example of how a lot of arts can be descibed the way abbax8 described Judo. I also asked the question in red to try and take away that impression from my post.

Cheers
Sammy

[Bod]

It ((Judo - ed)) still practices pins (which are of limited or no value on the street)
Pins are indeed of little value on the street. However, there are still those daft tiffs people often get in (a relative, drunken friend, drugged-up co-worker etc. etc.), where pinning the other person is very useful.

Secondly, if you've done any ground fighting, you'll realise that the skills and strategies learned on the ground combined with 'dirty' tactics would do a lot to make up for a womans lack of strength in a self defence situation. I can't see where drilling in unpinning your legs, and using the whole body's strength is going to undermine a woman's ability to fight a man. As an anti-rape strategy, ground fighting comes into its own, provided the strategy is not to go to ground, but once on the ground to use your skills.

Thirdly, Judo may have atemi in, but as practised today, throwing is certainly the specialisation. Conversely, a complete system may contain throwing, but the way the system is trained often makes it very hard to practise the throwing techniques.

[Abbax8]

As I said in my post, it is the way the system is practiced that determines its' utility in self defense. Again confining myself to judo. Most fights I have seen or been in on the street usually starts with pushing or shoving, accelerates to wild punches or maybe kicks, someone ususally tries to grab and maybe get a headlock type hold, then they fall to the ground. In such a situation, judo training is excellant- defense against strikes are taught, striking techniques are taught, close quarters fighting is experianced so the shock factor is eased. As an aide on a behavior ward, I was attacked sometimes more than a dozen times per shift by patients who were incredibly strong, fast and unpredictable. I was attacked with slaps, kicks and bites. In close a head butt was a real possiblity. Chairs, belts and any useful weapon were often featured. It was my judo training, the randori that trained me to move and pivot, to direct and defelect the attacks that saved my butt. Feel free to disagree this me, but you won't change my mind. The police officers who have trained in my class also have thought that what I taught them has practical value.

Peace
Dennis

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Abbax8

As I said in my post, it is the way the system is practiced that determines its' utility in self defense. Again confining myself to judo. Most fights I have seen or been in on the street usually starts with pushing or shoving, accelerates to wild punches or maybe kicks, someone ususally tries to grab and maybe get a headlock type hold, then they fall to the ground. In such a situation, judo training is excellant- defense against strikes are taught, striking techniques are taught, close quarters fighting is experianced so the shock factor is eased. As an aide on a behavior ward, I was attacked sometimes more than a dozen times per shift by patients who were incredibly strong, fast and unpredictable. I was attacked with slaps, kicks and bites. In close a head butt was a real possiblity. Chairs, belts and any useful weapon were often featured. It was my judo training, the randori that trained me to move and pivot, to direct and defelect the attacks that saved my butt. Feel free to disagree this me, but you won't change my mind. The police officers who have trained in my class also have thought that what I taught them has practical value.

Peace
Dennis
Don't get me wrong I love Judo and I kno the benefits are there but you incinuated that randori resembled street combat which it doesn't. There are elements to randori (as you mentioned) which would assist you on the street just as there are in sparring but neither resembles street fighting and neither should be used to gauge how well something would work against an aggressive assailant. You could have someone in class come at you with all guns blazing and practice. Just a suggestion.

Maybe I could have worded myself a little better.

Cheers
Sammy

[Bod]

I agree that Judo is extremely effective for self defence, in many circumstances, because you use techniques which you have used on a resisting opponent. Also many fights are bigger guys rushing smaller guys, trying to get in close to avoid being struck, and grappling skills are very useful in these situations. You get used to having the wind knocked out of you, and carrying on when you are punched unexpectedly.

Some of the other skills are useful even if not designed that way. Grip fighting teaches you to block in a fluid manner, which classical Judo blocks don't promote.

I love Judo, and it has given me a lot of confidence, because I know what I know and what I don't. I know how the techniques feel in practice, against a resisting opponent.

However, I still temper this love with the knowledge that Judo isn't everything, and that some of the more sport oriented moves and ways of training are not street safe. It is not a true multiple opponent art, especially if played in a stiff way, with your arms defensively gripping your opponent.

That's why I always try to move and be fluid, making 'pretty' Judo, because that's going to be useful on the street. I concentrate on sweeps and standing throws from the orthodox position which protects your ribs. I'm acutely aware of where my nuts are and where my opponents head is in ground fighting.

I also practise kung fu striking, blocking, kicking and elbow drills to supplement my Judo practice.

Judo is great, I believe it's one of the best kept secrets in martial arts*, but I'm careful to be aware of the limitations of the way I train.

* A Geoff Thompson quote.

[Zujitsuka]

Originally posted by Bod

I agree that Judo is extremely effective for self defence, in many circumstances, because you use techniques which you have used on a resisting opponent. Also many fights are bigger guys rushing smaller guys, trying to get in close to avoid being struck, and grappling skills are very useful in these situations. You get used to having the wind knocked out of you, and carrying on when you are punched unexpectedly.

Some of the other skills are useful even if not designed that way. Grip fighting teaches you to block in a fluid manner, which classical Judo blocks don't promote.

I love Judo, and it has given me a lot of confidence, because I know what I know and what I don't. I know how the techniques feel in practice, against a resisting opponent.

However, I still temper this love with the knowledge that Judo isn't everything, and that some of the more sport oriented moves and ways of training are not street safe. It is not a true multiple opponent art, especially if played in a stiff way, with your arms defensively gripping your opponent.

That's why I always try to move and be fluid, making 'pretty' Judo, because that's going to be useful on the street. I concentrate on sweeps and standing throws from the orthodox position which protects your ribs. I'm acutely aware of where my nuts are and where my opponents head is in ground fighting.

I also practise kung fu striking, blocking, kicking and elbow drills to supplement my Judo practice.

Judo is great, I believe it's one of the best kept secrets in martial arts*, but I'm careful to be aware of the limitations of the way I train.

* A Geoff Thompson quote.

Speaking of Geoff Thompson, here is an article posted on his site where he discusses cross-training. Click on the link below,

http://www.geoffthompson.com/articles/article_questions_for_geoff.htm

[7starmantis]

I think judo can be very effective, but it is a system that needs to be suplimented. I don't think that alone it provides the street defense some claim.


7sm

[ace]

:redeme:
If M.M.A. is what U want to do then go for it
With all your heart.

I have the same quest & im 1-0 rite now
I cross train & have found that
It is the way to
:asian:
Primo

[JDenz]

I to agree that if you want to be a good fighter you must crosstrain. A punch is a punch a kick a kick the only diffrence is when and how to throw really. In all my time in the martial arts I have noticed that everything is similar enough that it probley would be confusing if you were trying to build rank and understand a system, and for the same reason that is why crosstrianing for fighting is a good thing

[Nightingale]

Personally, I like kenpo. It provides all I'm looking for in self defense. However, I do crosstrain... and the only reason I cross train is this: I want to know what my opponent knows. I'm still going to use my kenpo, I just want to know what to expect against a TKD, KF, or whatever person

[ace]

Good For U :D
I see nothing wrong with that at all.
But This guy Want's t to do M.M.A.

If U are going in to M.M.A.
with out Grappling Knowledge
It is like swiming with Parana & an opean cut
.:snipe2:
:bomb:
Primo

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by JDenz

I to agree that if you want to be a good fighter you must crosstrain. A punch is a punch a kick a kick the only diffrence is when and how to throw really. In all my time in the martial arts I have noticed that everything is similar enough that it probley would be confusing if you were trying to build rank and understand a system, and for the same reason that is why crosstrianing for fighting is a good thing

:confused: I'm confused, what did you just say ? IT would be confusing to build rank because all systems are so similar, so its good to cross train because you can fight better?

I must be missing something ?


7sm

[ace]

I belive what Jdenz is tryin to say
is that We have 2 arms
2 Legs & a head

Most System share a comon thread.
If U are trying to make it in M.M.A.
Then shooting for rank may
confuse U:idea:
:moon:
Primo

[JDenz]

what i meant is if you are trying to use one system only in a dojo but you are crosstrianing in more then one style it is easy to get confused. if you are supposed to parry something and step out of the way and redirerct the energy like in Aikido insted of blocking and attacking like in karate. This could hold your progess and even your understanding of the art back.
Where as in MMA it doesn't matter what you do as long as it works.

[Angus]

Well, that just brings us back to one of the original points: If you want to cross train to be proficient in BOTH arts (rather than MMA, which is jack-of-all-trades situation, but not necessarily a bad thing), then it makes much more sense to pick two arts that are similiar in some ways, if not many. For example, it's probably a good idea to mix Hapkido with Taekwondo, rather than something like Muay Thai, because the striking and movement/footwork will be much more similiar, because of the similiar origins. Karate and Aikido, IMO, don't make a good combo because Karate is very linear in movement while Aikido is circular. The key to cross training is finding arts that COMPLIMENT each other, not contradict each other. Not that you can't do that, but it makes it much easier.

[Abbax8]

"I think judo can be very effective, but it is a system that needs to be suplimented. I don't think that alone it provides the street defense some claim."

Don't confuse what you see at most tournaments for Classical Kodokan Judo. The stiff arm bent over jigotai is not judo and 30 years ago would have been penalized very quickly. There are penalties today, but competitors make a game of doing fake attacks to not get called for defensive judo or stalling. The judo I try to teach, the judo I am talking about as useful for self defense is upright, fluid motions. You blend with the attack and guide to your best advantage. Randori practiced like this is the only training I have had that prepared me to defend myself against attackers, both at work and on the street. It works, its effective and its complete with strikes and holds as well as throws. Since I have used it successfully numerous times to defend myself against armed and unarmed opponents, but never against a gun, PRAISE GOD!, I will still stand by my statements of judo being complete, at least as complete as any art will be.


Peace
Dennis