FAQ on Why TKD is being smashed.

[J-kid]

I found this website and i wanted to know what you guys thought of what this guy says, Judge it for your self.
Click on Link For a FAQ on why TKD is getting SMASHED on so much.

http://www.dayton.net/~lawson/bashtkd.html

[karatekid1975]

All I have to say that most of the bashing is a result of the McDojangs. But if you go to a REAL TKD school, mine included, you will see more than "high kicks".

[karatekid1975]

Sorry, I replied half asleep (I just woke up and I haven't had enough coffee yet), and without reading the whole thing. He wasn't bashing TKD, he was just explaining WHY TKD gets bashed. I agree with the McDojang thing. That is the biggest reason TKD gets bashed. My dojang is kinda on the expensive side (which I don't agree with), but as far as training goes, we get good instruction. We have to EARN what rank we get. My teachers do FAIL people. This (my dojang) is definitely not a belt factory.

[jkn75]

I think this FAQ is OK. I think it does point out some of the misconceptions that people have about TKD. I would have liked to see his interpretations of what TKD is then; what does TKD do to break out of these misconceptions? This would have doubled the size of the FAQ but I think that would have been interesting.

:asian:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

I found this website and i wanted to know what you guys thought of what this guy says, Judge it for your self.
Click on Link For a FAQ on why TKD is getting SMASHED on so much.

http://www.dayton.net/~lawson/bashtkd.html
Yeah, I agree with him...

If you read the article, you would notice he was talking about McDojangs, not military TKD schools.

[Bagatha]

WHAT THE HECK IS MILITARY TKD? lol

seriously you keep going on and on about something none of us have heard of. Sounds McDojo to me.....

got a link?

[J-kid]

Miltary tkd is a Miltary based self defense / thats all i know

[karatekid1975]

Bagatha wrote:

"WHAT THE HECK IS MILITARY TKD? lol

seriously you keep going on and on about something none of us have heard of. Sounds McDojo to me.....

got a link?"

Dang, Bagatha, you beat me to it. Yea, Martial artist, what the heck is it? Can you provide a link or is it not real?

[KennethKu]

This was discussed in other threads.

THere are not many schools in NorthAmerica that teach this "combat' version TKD. There are a few, but the operation of the schools is less than desirable.

This is the one mentioned by Martial Artist.
http://www.concentric.net/~sertic/choi.html
http://www.choikwangdo.com/


Unfortuantely, the way the school is run has a lot of controversy.
as disclosed here.
http://ksdi.net/about.html

Which itself (Koo Self Defense) gives out BB to 5 yrs old and is proud of it. :rolleyes:

No idea what ChoiKwangdo actually teaches, except that from the sites it seems like they reduce TKD to the strike techniques in JKD. (Their instruction videoes only for sale to members)


The easiest way to describe a combat TKD would be, ITF with full contact ( full speed and power), NO illegal targets, NO illegal techniques. On the contrary, emphasis is on destructive strikes (to all the normally illegal targets lol). Training emphasis on mental (endurance) and physical conditioning and only on selected TKD techniques.

It is combat-oriented vs family friendly. Not a commercially appealing product.

Martial Artist may have more to add or correct :asian:

[Marginal]

Only thing that bugs me about that FAQ is that strange comment on completeness in it. Very few MA's cover everything. Not sure why it's a strike against TKD specifically 'cause it doesn't cover ground fighting.

That's the whole point of the MMA movement afterall. (Shrug)

[Kempojujutsu]

My Instructor study with General Choi while in Vietnam. Miltary TKD is just that, hand2hand combat. He said when they sparred they would in complete combat gear, even the combat boots. It would be full contact with no pads. Miltary TKD was what the South Vietnam troops used for there Hand2Hand combat.
Bob :asian:

[Bagatha]

OK well in that sense, TKD is a very generic term that can describe just about every MA out there. So "military TKD" is nothing but normal military combat??

I saw an article about Choi kwang do or whatever in TKD times. He teaches a modified system for the "physically impared".

[Marginal]

There is a growing feeling that TKD isn't performing well in MMA etc due to the current training methods rather than the techniques themselves. No full contact in ITF (these are in general, schools vary), restricted strikes in WTF, no pushing or grabbing in sparring etc.

Stiffen up the training goes the theory, and you'll produce a TKD practitioner that'll be more likely to deal damage against other currently popular ring arts etc.

[J-kid]

TKD is infact its own art and style , I have no idea what you mean when you say that Its Generic. no other art is really like tkd maybe karate but thats about it.

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

TKD is infact its own art and style , I have no idea what you mean when you say that Its Generic. no other art is really like tkd maybe karate but thats about it.

Yes. and there are different styles of TKD. Why are there different styles? because the name itself....which is what I was getting at :D is a very generic fluffball name that can apply to several different types of MA, and as years progress, more and more styles emerge calling themselves "TKD" or "The way of striking with the hands and feet". <- my very loose translation

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by Marginal

There is a growing feeling that TKD isn't performing well in MMA etc due to the current training methods rather than the techniques themselves. No full contact in ITF (these are in general, schools vary), restricted strikes in WTF, no pushing or grabbing in sparring etc.

Stiffen up the training goes the theory, and you'll produce a TKD practitioner that'll be more likely to deal damage against other currently popular ring arts etc.

I agree 100%. There definatley needs to be more contact, and VARIETY of teqniques thrown. We learn elbows and knees, different types of jabs and kicks, holds, several things that we learn we are never allowed to practice due to tournament rules. I hope that someday, there is a more "open" tourny for TKDists to pracitce ALL of the martial art, the way it is meant.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Bagatha

OK well in that sense, TKD is a very generic term that can describe just about every MA out there. So "military TKD" is nothing but normal military combat??

I saw an article about Choi kwang do or whatever in TKD times. He teaches a modified system for the "physically impared".



Military combat uses other militarized MA , not just TKD. For example, in Thailand military, they train in military MT. In Korea armed forces, you have militarized TKD, militarized Hapkido and others militarized Korean MA.

Martial Artist does not limit the term "military" MA to just MA taught to the military. He uses it in referrence to civilian COMBAT MA as well.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

Miltary tkd is a Miltary based self defense / thats all i know
Nope, it's not military based at all.

It is basically the name for full-contact, no nonesense TKD. One thing that's good is that it isn't associated with the ITF or WTF or any of the other places that can help them sell out.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

My Instructor study with General Choi while in Vietnam. Miltary TKD is just that, hand2hand combat. He said when they sparred they would in complete combat gear, even the combat boots. It would be full contact with no pads. Miltary TKD was what the South Vietnam troops used for there Hand2Hand combat.
Bob :asian:
That's military TKD that was modified to fit the military. ;) Soldiers fight differently than the normal person. Too many different environmental factors. What are you going to do, perform a side kick at 50 meters away when he has a M-16 aimed for your head? Now 50 meters is considered pretty close combat in modern warfare.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Bagatha



Yes. and there are different styles of TKD. Why are there different styles? because the name itself....which is what I was getting at :D is a very generic fluffball name that can apply to several different types of MA, and as years progress, more and more styles emerge calling themselves "TKD" or "The way of striking with the hands and feet". <- my very loose translation
Yep, and also take into account the origin of the name of TKD. It was to bring many schools under one name.

Judo-kid, try to look at it like Judo. There are many versions of judo. And in those versions, there is the sport version and the military version. What most people make conclusions on TKD are just ignorant as they're concluding by just looking at the sport concept in McDojangs.

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by KennethKu





Military combat uses other militarized MA , not just TKD. For example, in Thailand military, they train in military MT. In Korea armed forces, you have militarized TKD, militarized Hapkido and others militarized Korean MA.

Martial Artist does not limit the term "military" MA to just MA taught to the military. He uses it in referrence to civilian COMBAT MA as well.

Try reading my post again.

[KennethKu]

: Originally posted by Bagatha
OK well in that sense, TKD is a very generic term that can describe just about every MA out there. So "military TKD" is nothing but normal military combat??

I saw an article about Choi kwang do or whatever in TKD times. He teaches a modified system for the "physically impared".



quote: Originally posted by KennethKu
Military combat uses other militarized MA , not just TKD. For example, in Thailand military, they train in military MT. In Korea armed forces, you have militarized TKD, militarized Hapkido and others militarized Korean MA.

Martial Artist does not limit the term "military" MA to just MA taught to the military. He uses it in referrence to civilian COMBAT MA as well.



Originally posted by Bagatha

Try reading my post again.

My apology for not making my post clearer, Bagatha. :asian: I absolutely did not mean to rebutt your post in any way.

It should have been posted as :

Military combat also uses other militaried MA which reflect their respective national MA flavor, in addition to the generic military TKD.

I remember reading about Gen Choi travelling all over South East Asia, Eastern Europe and to Russia, to teach the military personnel TKD. Of course, he standardized TKD training for the South Korean Army and later introduced TKD to the North as well.

Thererfore, Bagatha, you are ABSOLUTELY correct that military TKD is in a sense pretty much generic normal military combat, as it is widely incorporated.

AS re: Martial Artist's use of the term "Military MA", I was just sharing a point which he has corrected me in the past. I was at first confused that with MA taught in the military only. He corrected me that it basically refers to all MA with emphasis on combat effectiveness.

Again, I apologize sincerely for failing to post in a clearer manner. :asian:

[KennethKu]

Also, as re:ChoiKwangDo, you are correct. He stated that he was injured while practicing ITF (he was Gen Choi's assistant) and had to quit to recuperate and in the process came up with a "safer" CKD. (as posted on his website) He also talked about how it was designed specifically for self defence (hence the "Military" aspect of it) and probably due to business concern, CKD is also marketed to the family and kids etc for health and other common benefits.

[fissure]

Yes. and there are different styles of TKD. Why are there different styles? because the name itself....which is what I was getting at is a very generic fluffball name that can apply to several different types of MA, and as years progress, more and more styles emerge calling themselves "TKD" or "The way of striking with the hands and feet". <- my very loose translation
Years ago most TKD schools would give the name of the kwan that their lineage connected them to (Chang Moo Kwan for example).Over the last 20 yrs or so this has gone by the wayside, and now everything is called TKD.
Imagine if every striking art from Japan was simply called Karate in the U.S., with no particular stlye to differentiate between them!This is basically where TKD is at this point.

[MartialArtist]

A better name for military TKD would be combat TKD. Military TKD doesn't mean boot camp, weapons training, how to use your bayonnet on a M-16/M4, etc. Although military TKD train just as hard as many military personnel if not harder. They also include a lot more mental training which does take up at least an hour of their day.

[Bagatha]

Still sounds like poser TKD to me. I personally would never join a club that was not part of a larger federation. For several reasons. The big ones that come to mind is 1. You have no idea if the "master" is reeeaally a master, of if it was some self-proclaimation from some 2nd degree or even a yellow belt(yes I can think of a case). 2. You are limited in your training to the skill that is at the 1 club and maybe a few open tournys with other clubs that arent part of federations either. Im sure there are some legitimate cases of someone quiting a federation for political or some other reason and then just going independant. But looking at some of those independants who come back later on.....something was lost for them, they suck pretty bad. Its not their fault again, they simply did not have the perks that being in a larger international group can give you. Such as seminars and tournys. Times change and so do techniques if your off in your own bubble you have no idea whats going on around you. Furthermore, just because you are in a larger federation does not mean you cannot train combatively, it is true that most instructors choose to focus more on the sporting aspect, but several are into the hardcore street aspect aswell. Its up to the club not the federation. But to get real good at anything you need to hear several opinions, and train on a larger scale.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Bagatha

Still sounds like poser TKD to me. I personally would never join a club that was not part of a larger federation. For several reasons. The big ones that come to mind is 1. You have no idea if the "master" is reeeaally a master, of if it was some self-proclaimation from some 2nd degree or even a yellow belt(yes I can think of a case). 2. You are limited in your training to the skill that is at the 1 club and maybe a few open tournys with other clubs that arent part of federations either. Im sure there are some legitimate cases of someone quiting a federation for political or some other reason and then just going independant. But looking at some of those independants who come back later on.....something was lost for them, they suck pretty bad. Its not their fault again, they simply did not have the perks that being in a larger international group can give you. Such as seminars and tournys. Times change and so do techniques if your off in your own bubble you have no idea whats going on around you. Furthermore, just because you are in a larger federation does not mean you cannot train combatively, it is true that most instructors choose to focus more on the sporting aspect, but several are into the hardcore street aspect aswell. Its up to the club not the federation. But to get real good at anything you need to hear several opinions, and train on a larger scale.
Military TKD schools are not usually public either. A lot of them are private instructors that train a select few. Keep that in mind. And yeah, you can tell who a master is by their rank if you're in Korea as it does take lots of time, experience, and skill to reach a rank that high, no McDojang nonesense. And, a master isn't considered a grandmaster until his 8th degree. Now, even without rank, you can tell if he's a good instructor or not within the first 10 minutes.

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


Military TKD schools are not usually public either. A lot of them are private instructors that train a select few. Keep that in mind. And yeah, you can tell who a master is by their rank if you're in Korea as it does take lots of time, experience, and skill to reach a rank that high, no McDojang nonesense. And, a master isn't considered a grandmaster until his 8th degree. Now, even without rank, you can tell if he's a good instructor or not within the first 10 minutes.

Grandmaster at 8th degree huh? So when does one obtain the title of "master"? Also, how do you know their rank is legitimate if there was no certificate issued from a federation? No test?. Right now I have in my mind a kung-fu club who's instructor used to train under mine. He obtained a green stripe and proceeded to open up his own school (independant of course) with I beleive it was a 5th degree rank which he gave himself. Now to someone who was not familiar with kung-fu, you would walk in and see that everyone was having fun in class, and he has explinations for everything under the sun. So he must be a good instructor right?

[KennethKu]

Bagatha makes a very good point. One thing about the ITF is , you have an international governing body to check and verify rank and qualification, in addition to a standardized TKD curriculum and testing process. Even then, there is still controversy about the rank and qualification of certain members ( eg Jeffy lol ) from time to time. But at least you have a system to check and verify and file protest or dispute. Hence the level of integrity is much higher.

When you have someone claiming to be teaching Heilung KungFu (whatever) and calling himself GM whatever, there is no way to tell the truth from the charlatan. You can challenge him to a fight. That does not verify anything neither.

(May be in places like South Korea, in the close knitted MA community, if you are a fake, you get the crap beaten out of you in no time. I dunno. It would be very hard to pass as a fake , in Okinawa.)

In terms of the benefits of a federation, the current ITF under Master Choi, does not mind nor care if its members cross train at any school or MA. So basically you have the benefits of being a member of an international federation, as well as the freedom to cross train at specialized school, Combat MA or McDojo , to your heart's content.

[Langdow]

Alrighty I'm late into this thread, and new to this group, so this could be long ;)
The "BashTKD" article in my opinion was put together fairly well, and I am having some difficulty trying to decide if this is a TKD practioner stating some misconceptions, or a non practioner pointing out weaknesses. I've emailed him just because I'm curious. All in all I can say is that this isn't the first time I've heard all these arguements before. I would like to rebut these misconceptions if I may from my standpoint (WTF style TKD training)

First thing first, the techniques. As stated in the article

"... TKD focuses far too much on kicks with very little emphasis on punching, particularly as influenced by Competition style TKD..."

This has been a common complaint that I've heard from other MA practioners. This I find is invalid. It is true that there is a defnite emphasis on kicks, especially in schools that train for competitions, and I am guilty of sometimes overtraining this way myself, however, one could look at the forms in TKD and notice a definate lacking of kicks, especially in the lower poomse. Example: The kicho set of forms, or basic set for beginners does not include any kicks at all, but has emphasis on blocking/counter punching techniques. These forms generally aren't used however because they are quite old and kukkiwon no longer (if ever) uses these as testing requirements in their syllabus.
The Palgwae poomse (which are also no longer needed by kukkiwon) continue the emphasis on block/counter punching, but they also add kicks. The only two kicks used however are side kicks, and front kicks. No flashy jumping spinning 360 degree hook kicks in these patterns. There is also an emphasis on two handed combonation techniques. Swallow form, high knifehand block with a high knifehand strike. As well as clutch and pull combinations.
The Taguek poomse, are the most recently developed forms for the WTF. The emphasis is very similar to the palgwae forms, however the stances or higher and the round house kick is added to one of these forms, as well as double jumping front kick in another. All these kicks are generally middle section.
The Yudanja poomse, begin to take more advantage of kicks, but they have gone back to lower stances than the Tageuk series. The Bum sogi stance is also used much more frequently. Techniques however are still generally based hand techniques, and Keumgang has no kicks in it whatsoever. Cheonkwon actually looks very kung fu-ish if you've ever seen it, very pretty pattern.

The next point of misconceptions is strategy. The author of BashTKD has also added a stategy from Brazilian Ju Jitsu, which is sound

"...BJJ's Strategy says: "All, or most, fights are comprised of only two combatants, and end up with both combatants 'wresting' on the ground rather than standing..."

This is a sound statement, IF their are only two combatants. In modern day self defense however, most altercations never involve two people. Their is usually one, and then another group. In this case mobility is going to keep you from harm, so going to the ground is not normally desirable. Course during hosinsool, use whatever works. I like this one "How do you get out of a headlock? Tell your buddy to kick the guy grabbing you"
This is common of how altercations go in today's society, unfortunately :(

Next point is on training, or more specifically sparring as the author clearing discusses. The misconception is that a TKD practioner will go for the high kicks, or kicks in general during sparring. This is very true in the WTF (I can't attest for ITF), mainly because our sparring is competition based, and their are rules. It isn't a fight, it is a game. The high kicks to the head are to get the most points (two points for a head kick plus one if there is a standing 8 count) You can see why it's tempting to go for those high kicks. The author states however

"Many believe TKD's kicking (as taught and practiced) isn't even appropriate for MOST situations"

This is completely true, and I have no rebuttal for it other than if someone attacking me is willing to give me the time to kick them in the head, I'll take it, but this goes back to hosinsool, and I know of few good WTF schools that teach hosinsool with hi section flashy kicks. Usually the the lower legs or hip is the target.

The final section has to deal with philosophy. Once again I will take a quote from the author.

"We will skip Philosophy since it is difficult to identify any particular philosophy associated specifically with TKD other then "Be a better person"

This is false, completely. However it is a misconception. The Taeguek poomse are based on the Chinese philosophy pertaining to the trigrams, and the I Ching.
The Palgwae forms are based on the opposites of the Taegeuks, which is the dealings of man.
The Yundanja poomse deal with various korean and eastern philosophies, including earth, water, sky, and oneness to name a few.
Here's a link that is actually quite good in describing the Taegeuk and the I Ching
http://www.tcnj.edu/~tkd/articles/iching.htm

Now just quickly to close (thx for hanging on so long) The McDojangs that are always spoken of, will always be there. Not just in TKD but every other style, especially in North America since there is no governing bodies to stimulate and govern legit styles, arts, schools, instructors, etc . . . Anyone could go to a store buy a black belt, call them selves Grandmaster of chicken fu and open a school to make some money.
The advantage of belonging to international organizations such as the ITF or WTF, is that people can check on the school owners/instructors/Black belts credentials by getting ahold of the said governing bodies. This helps eleminate the Grandmaster of chicken fu people. The added advantage is also that being a member allows you to train at other members schools, with permission from the instructors. If I go on a vacation to the UK I can take my dobak, find a WTF school, ask if it's possible to train there while I'm there, and give them my Kukkiwon certification, and more often than not the answer will be yes, and I will know the material, but I will be able to learn the specific nuances.
On the topic of "military" or "combat" TKD, no offense intended to MartialArtist. I view these as buzz words mainly because TKD was developed for the military. It's all how intense the instructor wishes to teach.

Thx for listening, if I hear back from the Author of the BashTKD article, I'll let ya'll know.

:yinyang:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Bagatha



Grandmaster at 8th degree huh? So when does one obtain the title of "master"? Also, how do you know their rank is legitimate if there was no certificate issued from a federation? No test?. Right now I have in my mind a kung-fu club who's instructor used to train under mine. He obtained a green stripe and proceeded to open up his own school (independant of course) with I beleive it was a 5th degree rank which he gave himself. Now to someone who was not familiar with kung-fu, you would walk in and see that everyone was having fun in class, and he has explinations for everything under the sun. So he must be a good instructor right?
3rd degree-7th degree, you are known as an instructor. You can instruct people, but you technically aren't given the title as "instructor" until then. 8th is grand master.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Langdow

Alrighty I'm late into this thread, and new to this group, so this could be long ;)
The "BashTKD" article in my opinion was put together fairly well, and I am having some difficulty trying to decide if this is a TKD practioner stating some misconceptions, or a non practioner pointing out weaknesses. I've emailed him just because I'm curious. All in all I can say is that this isn't the first time I've heard all these arguements before. I would like to rebut these misconceptions if I may from my standpoint (WTF style TKD training)

First thing first, the techniques. As stated in the article

"... TKD focuses far too much on kicks with very little emphasis on punching, particularly as influenced by Competition style TKD..."

This has been a common complaint that I've heard from other MA practioners. This I find is invalid. It is true that there is a defnite emphasis on kicks, especially in schools that train for competitions, and I am guilty of sometimes overtraining this way myself, however, one could look at the forms in TKD and notice a definate lacking of kicks, especially in the lower poomse. Example: The kicho set of forms, or basic set for beginners does not include any kicks at all, but has emphasis on blocking/counter punching techniques. These forms generally aren't used however because they are quite old and kukkiwon no longer (if ever) uses these as testing requirements in their syllabus.
The Palgwae poomse (which are also no longer needed by kukkiwon) continue the emphasis on block/counter punching, but they also add kicks. The only two kicks used however are side kicks, and front kicks. No flashy jumping spinning 360 degree hook kicks in these patterns. There is also an emphasis on two handed combonation techniques. Swallow form, high knifehand block with a high knifehand strike. As well as clutch and pull combinations.
The Taguek poomse, are the most recently developed forms for the WTF. The emphasis is very similar to the palgwae forms, however the stances or higher and the round house kick is added to one of these forms, as well as double jumping front kick in another. All these kicks are generally middle section.
The Yudanja poomse, begin to take more advantage of kicks, but they have gone back to lower stances than the Tageuk series. The Bum sogi stance is also used much more frequently. Techniques however are still generally based hand techniques, and Keumgang has no kicks in it whatsoever. Cheonkwon actually looks very kung fu-ish if you've ever seen it, very pretty pattern.

The next point of misconceptions is strategy. The author of BashTKD has also added a stategy from Brazilian Ju Jitsu, which is sound

"...BJJ's Strategy says: "All, or most, fights are comprised of only two combatants, and end up with both combatants 'wresting' on the ground rather than standing..."

This is a sound statement, IF their are only two combatants. In modern day self defense however, most altercations never involve two people. Their is usually one, and then another group. In this case mobility is going to keep you from harm, so going to the ground is not normally desirable. Course during hosinsool, use whatever works. I like this one "How do you get out of a headlock? Tell your buddy to kick the guy grabbing you"
This is common of how altercations go in today's society, unfortunately :(

Next point is on training, or more specifically sparring as the author clearing discusses. The misconception is that a TKD practioner will go for the high kicks, or kicks in general during sparring. This is very true in the WTF (I can't attest for ITF), mainly because our sparring is competition based, and their are rules. It isn't a fight, it is a game. The high kicks to the head are to get the most points (two points for a head kick plus one if there is a standing 8 count) You can see why it's tempting to go for those high kicks. The author states however

"Many believe TKD's kicking (as taught and practiced) isn't even appropriate for MOST situations"

This is completely true, and I have no rebuttal for it other than if someone attacking me is willing to give me the time to kick them in the head, I'll take it, but this goes back to hosinsool, and I know of few good WTF schools that teach hosinsool with hi section flashy kicks. Usually the the lower legs or hip is the target.

The final section has to deal with philosophy. Once again I will take a quote from the author.

"We will skip Philosophy since it is difficult to identify any particular philosophy associated specifically with TKD other then "Be a better person"

This is false, completely. However it is a misconception. The Taeguek poomse are based on the Chinese philosophy pertaining to the trigrams, and the I Ching.
The Palgwae forms are based on the opposites of the Taegeuks, which is the dealings of man.
The Yundanja poomse deal with various korean and eastern philosophies, including earth, water, sky, and oneness to name a few.
Here's a link that is actually quite good in describing the Taegeuk and the I Ching
http://www.tcnj.edu/~tkd/articles/iching.htm

Now just quickly to close (thx for hanging on so long) The McDojangs that are always spoken of, will always be there. Not just in TKD but every other style, especially in North America since there is no governing bodies to stimulate and govern legit styles, arts, schools, instructors, etc . . . Anyone could go to a store buy a black belt, call them selves Grandmaster of chicken fu and open a school to make some money.
The advantage of belonging to international organizations such as the ITF or WTF, is that people can check on the school owners/instructors/Black belts credentials by getting ahold of the said governing bodies. This helps eleminate the Grandmaster of chicken fu people. The added advantage is also that being a member allows you to train at other members schools, with permission from the instructors. If I go on a vacation to the UK I can take my dobak, find a WTF school, ask if it's possible to train there while I'm there, and give them my Kukkiwon certification, and more often than not the answer will be yes, and I will know the material, but I will be able to learn the specific nuances.
On the topic of "military" or "combat" TKD, no offense intended to MartialArtist. I view these as buzz words mainly because TKD was developed for the military. It's all how intense the instructor wishes to teach.

Thx for listening, if I hear back from the Author of the BashTKD article, I'll let ya'll know.

:yinyang:
No, they aren't necessarily buzz words. It is the real deal and the reason why those words were added was to distance themselves to sport. It's never focused on the sport aspect except maybe breaking. It also does not focus on forms as much as the WTF or ITF.

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by MartialArtist


3rd degree-7th degree, you are known as an instructor. You can instruct people, but you technically aren't given the title as "instructor" until then. 8th is grand master.
Okaaay, so these are the "rules" but according to whom? As it is not a part of a governing body....Let me guess... some guy never made it to 9th but wanted to be called GM anyway, so he made his own club where 8th dan is the highest but he could still have lower ranks teaching for him, said it was standard and everyone believes him right? Whatever buddy, as long as your happy that is the most important thing but dont delude yourself too much. There is no such thing as "military" or "combat" TKD anymore than there is "military karate" or chung fu or whatever. You start putting down federations and you are only closing yourself off from the real deal because everyone else has no proof to back up their rank. The McDojo's out there are the ones operating without supervision and Im sorry, you just got suckered.

[Angus]

Why are you so eager to call his art a McDojang (modified for Korean art) just because it isn't part of a large federation? What validation does a piece of paper REALLY give you? For all you know, they could steal and copy the piece of paper and put their own name on it, and you'd never know.

I can tell who is a good instructor and who is a good martial artist by simply seeing them and taking a class. I don't need paper, lineage, or federation BS to tell me that.

No disrespect meant to ITF or WTF, I'm just saying that just because a school isn't part of a similiar group has NO direct correlation with the abilities of the instructor or the validity of the art.

There are McDojangs that are part of federations and ones that aren't. The worst McDojangs I've seen have been federations. It means nothing.

Maybe you ought to see it and experience it before you're so quick to classify it as McDojangs? Just a thought.

[Bagatha]

Well I dont exactly take note of every single MA school every time I travel and critique their skills. But I can tell you that for sure 99% of the Crap schools in this province are non-affiliations. There will be some who slip through the cracks for sure but for the most part, everyone is on a fairly tight leash. You cant simply copy a certificate, as that is not the only proof of affiliation and most federations wont blindly accept a certificate of a degree by the instructors word. You cant even order uniforms for your students in the ITF without being properly registered as an instructor. You need special permission. If someone has a rank as master and does not have an instructor himself......then how did he achieve that rank??? How does a white belt know what a good martial artist is? They dont. People need these things for proof of experience and EDUCATION. <-This is the DIRECT link between abilities/knowledge of certified instructors and those who are not. In larger organizations the instructors have instructors and many of the higher instructors learn from each other. As opposed to some old fart who stopped his training 15 years ago or more and "promises" he is a real true master and god of all knowledge when really he is playing a long game of telephone (trying to recycle old info to the best of his memory). But hey, if you think the education provided by independants is more legitamate all the power to you.

[Langdow]

No, they aren't necessarily buzz words. It is the real deal and the reason why those words were added was to distance themselves to sport. It's never focused on the sport aspect except maybe breaking. It also does not focus on forms as much as the WTF or ITF.

Okay so if I practice the martial art, Taekwondo belonging to the WTF, I am not practiceing the real deal?
I think you have been pulled into a misconception that the BashTKD page is speaking about. There is Taekwondo the martial art, and there is Taekwondo the martial sport. You tell me what the difference is. I personally practice the martial art however I do compete. There is a huge difference between the art and the sport. The art deals with poomse, hosinsool, philosophy, and general all around self improvement. The sport deals with . . . the sport, nothing more nothing less. When you speak about the real deal and "combat/military" I take it you are learning how to fight. I guess there is a difference because I am learning how not to fight. I've been in many altercations because of my job and I've only been grabbed once. I can either get myself out of the situation or talk the person out of the bad choice they are going to make. The person who did grab me, was in a wrist lock real quick and me telling them how foolish that was, the altercation was over there and never needed to be escilated. If I am not practiceing the real deal, I guess I deserve a half point penalty for an invalid grab technique. (sorry couldn't resist being a little sarcastic ;) )
Practiceing poomse now is also a way to learn/excercise. Granted there are places that don't teach them, I just find them to be a good learning tool, and they can be modified to be made into a great workout too.
I don't mean to bash you or anything MartialArtist, I say go with what works for you, however I think there is a realization that you may need to see that yours is not the "real deal" TKD you claim it tob be. Like I said earlier TKD was developed for the military during the Japanese occupation of Korea. Gen Choi brought the Kwans together to form TKD. Both North and South Korea used TKD during the Korean war. It is still being taught to many militaries not just the Koreas. It is all how you train and the mindset you have when you train. Combat/Military are still buzz words.
Just a quick note about ITF/WTF certifications. ITF and WTF black belts have certification numbers. These numbers can be verified through the governing organizations to find the validity of the said BB. This makes it near impossible to copy a WTF/ITF certification because the public can always check the references. If you look at any WTF or ITF BB practicioner and they won't give you there certification number, they aren't legit and should be reported to whichever organization they are posing as. Then they get a cease and desist, or some other nasty type of lawyer driven thing that nobody likes.

[Angus]

But like Bagatha said, a white belt wouldn't know it's a copy. ;)

I'm just saying I could care less who they are certified by. A good instructor is a good instructor. It's a bad sign if they have no information on their lineage, but I don't care if their lineage isn't part of a big group or federation.

[Langdow]

Agreed
Good instructor is a good instructor, no matter what affliations.
It is however a benifit to be a member of an affliation so there can be sharing of information, and to help cut down on the strip mall dojangs, that turn out poor students who think they're Jean Claude Van Damme.
There are benifits either way, but you are right that a good instructor is a good instructor is a good instructor
:)

[Damian Mavis]

Ya that goes both ways, labelling everyone from a certain federation as crap TKD is just as bad as labelling non affiliated schools as crap TKD... each one needs to be individually judged. You can't throw blanket terms out to cover an entire group.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Angus]

Exactly my point, only you were much more succinct. :D

[KennethKu]

Let's be fair, neither Bagatha nor any one is categorically labelling all non-affiliated schools as crap schools. Bagatha posted that "99% of the Crap schools in this province are non-affiliations ." There is a night and day's difference there. All dogs have 4 legs. But not all 4 legged animals are dogs.

Of course everyone already knows that each instructor is to be judged on his own or her own. That is all too obvious.

But the benefits of membership in a federation are there and have been pointed out repeatedly already. To deny/ignore that is ridiculous. :)

JMHO, and I say this with all due respect. :asian:

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Angus

But like Bagatha said, a white belt wouldn't know it's a copy. ;)
........

I believe you have misrepresented what Bagatha said, if you are referring to someone faking an affiliation issued certificate.

Allow me to quote from Bagatha's post.


Originally posted by Bagatha
...You cant simply copy a certificate, as that is not the only proof of affiliation and most federations wont blindly accept a certificate of a degree by the instructors word.....

You would be terribly mistaken to assume that one can easily pull off pretending to be an instructor in a federation. The gig would be up a lot sooner than you might think.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Langdow



Okay so if I practice the martial art, Taekwondo belonging to the WTF, I am not practiceing the real deal?
I think you have been pulled into a misconception that the BashTKD page is speaking about. There is Taekwondo the martial art, and there is Taekwondo the martial sport. You tell me what the difference is. I personally practice the martial art however I do compete. There is a huge difference between the art and the sport. The art deals with poomse, hosinsool, philosophy, and general all around self improvement. The sport deals with . . . the sport, nothing more nothing less. When you speak about the real deal and "combat/military" I take it you are learning how to fight. I guess there is a difference because I am learning how not to fight. I've been in many altercations because of my job and I've only been grabbed once. I can either get myself out of the situation or talk the person out of the bad choice they are going to make. The person who did grab me, was in a wrist lock real quick and me telling them how foolish that was, the altercation was over there and never needed to be escilated. If I am not practiceing the real deal, I guess I deserve a half point penalty for an invalid grab technique. (sorry couldn't resist being a little sarcastic ;) )
Practiceing poomse now is also a way to learn/excercise. Granted there are places that don't teach them, I just find them to be a good learning tool, and they can be modified to be made into a great workout too.
I don't mean to bash you or anything MartialArtist, I say go with what works for you, however I think there is a realization that you may need to see that yours is not the "real deal" TKD you claim it tob be. Like I said earlier TKD was developed for the military during the Japanese occupation of Korea. Gen Choi brought the Kwans together to form TKD. Both North and South Korea used TKD during the Korean war. It is still being taught to many militaries not just the Koreas. It is all how you train and the mindset you have when you train. Combat/Military are still buzz words.
Just a quick note about ITF/WTF certifications. ITF and WTF black belts have certification numbers. These numbers can be verified through the governing organizations to find the validity of the said BB. This makes it near impossible to copy a WTF/ITF certification because the public can always check the references. If you look at any WTF or ITF BB practicioner and they won't give you there certification number, they aren't legit and should be reported to whichever organization they are posing as. Then they get a cease and desist, or some other nasty type of lawyer driven thing that nobody likes.
I agree partially.

You can train in WTF and train in tae kwon do. However, even in Korea from 40 years ago to now, the focus gradually went to sport as there's more interest there.

They aren't buzz words because if anyone promotes that they teach military/combat TKD, it wouldn't be real. A real instructor wouldn't preach at all. It is usually for a very select number of students, almost like disciples. It is a very long-term commitment.

And yes, military TKD is different from the TKD they teach in the military, that's how the name goes for some reason. In the military, there is more focus on locks of that of hapkido and knife training.

The instructors, yes, they do get their black belts from the WTF and the ITF. However, they do not associate themselves with it in terms of saying, "I teach ITF TKD"

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by MartialArtist




The instructors, yes, they do get their black belts from the WTF and the ITF. However, they do not associate themselves with it in terms of saying, "I teach ITF TKD"

I dissagree. It totally depends who they are talking to. If I am talking to another martial artist, I will Identify my style, if not then it doesnt mean anything anyway.

[Angus]

Not that it really matters, but the copying a certificate thing was NEVER a big point of mine, and I never assumed anything about what Bagatha said. I'm not sure why you made a bigger deal about that than anything else. However, my point was it's easy to get the paper or something that resembles it, whether it lasts or not. I'm just saying paper and associations aren't everything to me. Just my opinion though.

[Langdow]

They aren't buzz words because if anyone promotes that they teach military/combat TKD, it wouldn't be real. A real instructor wouldn't preach at all. It is usually for a very select number of students, almost like disciples. It is a very long-term commitment.

Okay, I'll go with you for right now and say they aren't buzz words, I personally don't know of any schools that are military or combat driven, but I fail to see how if they promote it as military or combat that it fails to be real? How I am understanding of this is if it is promoted the syllabus of the style changes because of the promotion. One thing I worry about however is the word "disciples" Sounds cultish to me. "Students" is still the most positive label and probably the most correct if it is quality, and the instructor is allowing a learning curve to occur rather than, do as I say, because I said so.


And yes, military TKD is different from the TKD they teach in the military, that's how the name goes for some reason. In the military, there is more focus on locks of that of hapkido and knife training.

This is interesting because I'm currently training with a korean master, as a guest to his school, who used to be a hand to hand instructor for the south korean army. My training with him is more for competition though, but I'd be interested to ask him what the differences are that he taught while in the service. My combative training however is still with my master.


The instructors, yes, they do get their black belts from the WTF and the ITF. However, they do not associate themselves with it in terms of saying, "I teach ITF TKD"

This is . . . eye raising to me. I'd be interesting in finding out why they hold a WTF/ITF dan but don't teach under the syllabus. Not to say that they can't add things to to the base syllabus, but it sounds like from your description that they have essentially abandonded it.

:yinyang:

[Damian Mavis]

"they have essentially abandonded it."

Langdow, I can't speak for these "military" TKD schools but I run my school completely diferently than any other ITF school I've ever seen and I don't abandon the "syllabus". I just don't focus on the parts I don't find as worthwhile... I spend about half the time training my students in traditional ITF TKD and the other half we are training in various other things that I think are important for self defence and fighting skills. I think it's ok to add to the curriculum as long as you're keeping your roots and teaching the traditional information as well as whatever else is deemed important.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Langdow



This is . . . eye raising to me. I'd be interesting in finding out why they hold a WTF/ITF dan but don't teach under the syllabus. Not to say that they can't add things to to the base syllabus, but it sounds like from your description that they have essentially abandonded it.

:yinyang:
They don't teach the ITF or the WTF forms, it is not stressed as much.

Military TKD is NOT for the military as I've said. Military TKD is just the name for the TKD that focuses on full contact sparring and physical/mental unity more so than point-sparring.

The reason there aren't military/combat TKD schools is...

1. They aren't very public
2. You're from the US/Canada and full-contact sparring is not popular anywhere, especially in the US/Canada and all the political controversies

Disciples isn't very cultish at all. Rather, it is very traditional and cultural. For instance, a disciple in the martial arts doesn't mean Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Judas, etc. but think of it as a full-time student.

Ask your master on the types of kyorugi and he'll explain the numerous types.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

"they have essentially abandonded it."

Langdow, I can't speak for these "military" TKD schools but I run my school completely diferently than any other ITF school I've ever seen and I don't abandon the "syllabus". I just don't focus on the parts I don't find as worthwhile... I spend about half the time training my students in traditional ITF TKD and the other half we are training in various other things that I think are important for self defence and fighting skills. I think it's ok to add to the curriculum as long as you're keeping your roots and teaching the traditional information as well as whatever else is deemed important.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Yes, the only difference with combat instructors is that none of our focus is diverted to the sport aspect. Even way back, the ancient Korean practitioners would pratice high up in paekdusan as my uncles did in order to gain more stamina and learn to use their mind and make a connection with the body. But obviously, they don't do that anymore with NK's condition and that they have passed away.

[Damian Mavis]

Ya I'm not to fond of tournaments (the sporting aspect), my students all know that going to tournaments and trying to win are at the bottom of our priorities. HOWEVER, I do compete occasionaly, I was even Canadian champ for my weight division in my federation back in the day which was a total fluke. The reason I say fluke is I never go to tournaments to win, I go to test my ability to relax and stay focused while under pressure. I don't know about most people but I used to get really nervous going to tournaments and it would directly affect my ability to execute my techniques with power and precision. Not to mention my focus and strategy would go right out the window. So I would force myself to go to tournaments to overcome my weakness and I finally learned to control my stress and use my adrenaline to my advantage. The reason it was important for me to do this was I didn't like the idea of maybe getting scared or nervous when I needed to use my martial arts for self defence and not being able to properly. Competing in tournaments helped me with all that so for that purpose I find them helpful. But for pure sport I'm not a big fan...

The next step for me is amateur Muay Thai... it's full contact and pretty rough with the elbows and knees to the ribs and head. I want to test if what I learned about staying calm and focused will work in such brutal conditions.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Langdow]

First off, thanks for your opinions and thoughts. They are all appreciated :)
Mr Mavis, I agree whole heartadly that it is okay to add to the base curriculm set forth, that is in fact what my master does, and I think it makes for a better learning experience. After all for a WTF first dan, kukkiwon says as long as you can do Taegeuk pal jang, one other of the Taegeuks, and spar (olympic style) for 1 min, then you are a first dan. Really seems minimal to me. Self defense isn't even included in that :(

I guess it's up to the chief instructor to make sure that his students are learning what they need to know to stay out of trouble.

MartialArtist sir, I think we still have different definitions of disciples, however I do agree with the full time student idea, and that to me is a very noble idea.

BTW, is it just me, or have we stopped following the topic of the thread, not that it bothers me ;)

Regards