Arnis In The Future

[MJS]

There are many great people passing on the art of Modern Arnis. These people have put in alot of hard work and dedication to passing on this great art to others.

My question is: Where do you envision Modern Arnis in the future years? Will the teaching remain the same or will improvements or innovations be included? Is there anything in the art that you would like to see different?

I have a few thoughts, but would like to hear from others first.

Mike

[HKphooey]

I think cross training will be the biggest influence on Modern Arnis. As more an more martial artists add arnis (or any FMA) to their training, they will develop/discover some great new ways to look at things.

IMO, The proliferation of Modern Arnis has been the greatest achievement. Thanks to all who have made the extra efforts to get the word out there!

[Stan]

In the future, I think Modern Arnis will be pretty much the same, except we'll all go to our nightly Modern Arnis class in flying cars.

[stickarts]

It will continue to change as its instructors continue to gain new insights and understand more of what the Prof. was talking about! :)
Some of the key elements that make up the core of Arnis should not change such as developing the flow and developing skill with the checking hand, etc..

[Brian R. VanCise]

Definatley it will continue to grow and change. Most Modern Arnis practitioners are innovators. (At least the really good ones) So with that in mind it will grow and change through the years.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[Carol]

Just some rough ideas after my one big class :D

I wonder if cross-training will be both a postive and a negative for Modern Arnis?

The positive...Martial Artists that specifically seek out training in Arnis for...whatever they have...and making the most of it.

The negative seems inevitable. Cross-training sometimes leads to blending, and blending can be good or bad. The main issue that I have with blending styles is that the strength of lineage/instruction gets lost.

The class I sat in last night...Sensei Frank demonstrated a set of moves...a couple of locks and a throw...that had a common base of one hand position. I was watching him. I had learned the throw already and thought it would be easy to execute.

But in the class I realized...I recognized throw, I had learned it in June. I parroted what I knew, but what I knew was not all there was to making the throw effective, or using it in a more practical application.

The difference being...I didn't learn the throw the first time from a Kenpo BB that had a BB in Arnis or Ju-Jitsu. I learned it from a Kenpo BB that blended the moves in to his Kenpo. Where did the Kenpo BB learn the throw from? Good question, eh?


The flow of information being what it is...bits and pieces will get blended in to other arts, without mastery, or even documented understanding of the skillset. That isn't a good scenario, but it's not preventable either. Arnis will continue to thrive by means of what propogated the art to begin with - excellent instructors :asian:

How did I do, Sensei? ;)

[stickarts]

Just some rough ideas after my one big class :D

I wonder if cross-training will be both a postive and a negative for Modern Arnis?

The positive...Martial Artists that specifically seek out training in Arnis for...whatever they have...and making the most of it.

The negative seems inevitable. Cross-training sometimes leads to blending, and blending can be good or bad. The main issue that I have with blending styles is that the strength of lineage/instruction gets lost.

The class I sat in last night...Sensei Frank demonstrated a set of moves...a couple of locks and a throw...that had a common base of one hand position. I was watching him. I had learned the throw already and thought it would be easy to execute.

But in the class I realized...I recognized throw, I had learned it in June. I parroted what I knew, but what I knew was not all there was to making the throw effective, or using it in a more practical application.

The difference being...I didn't learn the throw the first time from a Kenpo BB that had a BB in Arnis or Ju-Jitsu. I learned it from a Kenpo BB that blended the moves in to his Kenpo. Where did the Kenpo BB learn the throw from? Good question, eh?


The flow of information being what it is...bits and pieces will get blended in to other arts, without mastery, or even documented understanding of the skillset. That isn't a good scenario, but it's not preventable either. Arnis will continue to thrive by means of what propogated the art to begin with - excellent instructors :asian:

How did I do, Sensei? ;)

Nice!
You can learn so many ways to get into the throw, and yet like Prof. used to say "it's all the same"
I will show you what i mean next class! :)

[Carol]

In the future, I think Modern Arnis will be pretty much the same, except we'll all go to our nightly Modern Arnis class in flying cars.

Now THAT would take the sting out of the North Shore-to-Cromwell trip! :D :D :D

[Guro Harold]

I really appreciate what Tuhon Ray Dionaldo has added in terms of his interpretation. The nuances that he has added with various other aspects shed a different light on Modern Arnis concepts. Most people don't know that one of the base influences of FCS is Modern Arnis.

[Tarot]

Modern Arnis is a blend art though, so naturally a lot of the moves one sees will seem familar because said move will have been created out of influence of another art. If that makes sense. Also a lot of the moves can be executed many different ways which is the beauty behind Modern Arnis. It allows for one to find what works best for them to achieve the move (thus resulting in a more personal and fulfilling experience, IMO) instead of being restricted to only one way.

What do I see for the future of Modern Arnis? I see it expanding and growing. People are becoming more aware of this art and I think it will definitly grow as a result.

[arnisador]

There is a real tension between the desire to preserve or evolve (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=254) the art. I know it must evolve...but I also like to see traditions preserved!

[Guro Harold]

There is a real tension between the desire to preserve or evolve (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=254) the art. I know it must evolve...but I also like to see traditions preserved!

Can't see that there is no real tension. No group has any influence on another group. There is no group that other groups emulate. Everyone seems very independent to me.

From a personal perspective, again, I like that Modern Arnis is a core system of mine. It has evolved however, because of the Kung-fu, Tai Chi, a little Silat, FCS, SFC, and other influences to something slightly different.

[arnisador]

Can't see that there is no real tension. No group has any influence on another group.

I didn't mean between groups. In every org., I imagine that there are people who would like to preserve the Professor's teachings as they are, and others who want to evolve the art as he did...and that most people are somewhere in the middle. I don't like the anyos...but I also would not like to see them forgotten. If we change the art too much, does it stop being Modern Arnis at some point? There's always a tension between tradition and change.

[Cruentus]

I think that we have a glimps of the future of Modern Arnis right here:

www.wmarnis.com/video/sword.mpg (http://www.wmarnis.com/video/sword.mpg)

;)

[Tarot]

I don't like the anyos...but I also would not like to see them forgotten.
That's very interesting! I know a good bit of people seem to not like the anyos (for various arts, not just Modern Arnis), for me it's one of my very favorite things to do. I love the flow of them. I also like that you can go at your own pace, which gives me a chance to work on my technique and really understand the move and become one with it. :asian:

To me, I think there is a large difference between evolving and change. When something evolves, the core or base is still there and it's able to be seen. The history remains, which IMO, is very important. When something changes, the core/base is lost and then forgotten.

[Guro Harold]

I didn't mean between groups. In every org., I imagine that there are people who would like to preserve the Professor's teachings as they are, and others who want to evolve the art as he did...and that most people are somewhere in the middle. I don't like the anyos...but I also would not like to see them forgotten. If we change the art too much, does it stop being Modern Arnis at some point? There's always a tension between tradition and change.
Got you!

I personally do not like the empty-hand forms but prefer the cane forms. I trust that my other Modern Arnis brothers and sisters preserve the empty-hand forms. I have preserved my version via Tim Hartman's anyo vcd myself:).

[stickarts]

Got you!

I personally do not like the empty-hand forms but prefer the cane forms. I trust that my other Modern Arnis brothers and sisters preserve the empty-hand forms. I have preserved my version via Tim Hartman's anyo vcd myself:).

LOL! I am the opposite. I prefer the emptyhand forms although the stick forms have their uses too!

[arnisador]

LOL! I am the opposite. I prefer the emptyhand forms although the stick forms have their uses too!

I'm with Palusut on this one. I do like the cane forms but not the empty-hand forms, and I preserve those in a DVD on my martial arts bookshelf.

I liked kata when I did Karate, but as I discussed here (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=255), I just don't think the anyos are a good 'fit' for Modern Arnis. It's an example of something I would likely leave out in a future version...though I hate to see such a loss of historical Modern Arnis.

[modarnis]

There needs to be some balance between evolving and preserving for there to be any future progress to Modern Arnis. In Professor's absence, what he already gave us needs to be preserved to some degree to provide a foundation for newer practitioners. That preserved material also serves as a handy reference point for our own growth and evolution as teachers and students of the art.

As I have said in other posts, on other threads, we will not be able to easily duplicate Professor's evolution through the arts for a variety of reasons. Suffice for this thread, much of his learning was from the school of hard knocks, something that in the present, I could not recreate. He did provide for us a wealth of information the material he did leave with us. The challenge is to unpack the material in a meaningful way to grow our own arts.

Either extreme, too much tradition or too much evolution leaves problems. The former is often evidenced in the "that's not on the tape or in the curriculum mentality" so I won't try anything new or bother to grow. In the latter, "I'll do my own thing, so much so that it ain't even Modern Arnis" extremes aren't useful for the art either.

Professor wanted people to make his art their own. For instructors, he expected that people were going to work with the material and grow as martial artists and individuals. No real secret to developing higher understsanding of Modern Arnis. Practice, apply, test, rework, reapply, modify or whatever until you get it right. I will use diving throw as an example. I've done it lots of times in the past 12 years. In the last year or so with training with a tai chi master, I have a heightened understanding of why it works and how to prevent someone from countering it. In the end, its still Modern Arnis.

If people would follow 3 pieces of advice professor gave me early on when working the existing material, the art will continue to evolve. 1. make it slow 2. make more relax and 3. practice. Through those 3 principals comes innovation

[stickarts]

I'm with Palusut on this one. I do like the cane forms but not the empty-hand forms, and I preserve those in a DVD on my martial arts bookshelf.

I liked kata when I did Karate, but as I discussed here (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=255), I just don't think the anyos are a good 'fit' for Modern Arnis. It's an example of something I would likely leave out in a future version...though I hate to see such a loss of historical Modern Arnis.

The prof. had told me that much of the art was "locked in the forms" so i made sure to memorize them. I agree not all of the moves seem like a great fit but he made a point of reviewing my anyos on a regular basis so I made it a point to be ready for his reviews! :)

[Stan]

As I have said in other posts, on other threads, we will not be able to easily duplicate Professor's evolution through the arts for a variety of reasons. Suffice for this thread, much of his learning was from the school of hard knocks, something that in the present, I could not recreate. He did provide for us a wealth of information the material he did leave with us.


I agree with this. And I don't mean to get off topic. I think in general any "genius" in the martial arts, any grandmaster truly worthy of creating a new system, comes up through the school of hard knocks. Any amount of dojo study may make one an expert, but it will never make one a grandmaster. That has to come, pardon the cliche, from the "street".

That brings up training methodology in Modern Arnis, the role of sparring and "aliveness", and the similarity or lack thereof between sparring and combat. I'd like to open up a discussion of this, although not necessarily in this thread.

I've noticed since I started studying Aikido that I can make Aikido techniques "work" in Aikido class, and Arnis techniques "work" in Arnis class, but often not vice-versa. One thing this tells me is that like most arts that don't train against much resistance, the efficacy of the techniques FOR ME in both arts is dependant on a particular assumed response from my training partner. This is well known in Aikido, where uke is often criticized for "throwing themself". But many of the patterns I have learned in Modern Arnis have been dependent on the partner reacting in a particular way, whether it was blocking, grabbing the stick, etc.

What I'm saying is, Professor could always make a technique work, and knew when to tell a student how to make it work, and when the student was just doing it wrong. Now that he's gone, how do we train "outside the box" of predictable responses WITHOUT abandoning the art and skill for free-for-all MMA sparring? In most Modern Arnis programs I've seen, there is very little free play, sitck or empty hand, for at least the first several years of training.

[modarnis]

The prof. had told me that much of the art was "locked in the forms" so i made sure to memorize them. I agree not all of the moves seem like a great fit but he made a point of reviewing my anyos on a regular basis so I made it a point to be ready for his reviews! :)

Ditto. Of course there is also a great deal locked in the various drills he left us as well. Of course absent the hard work necessary to understand the form and glean application from it, you merely have a dance with punches and kicks. Many people stop exploring before they have a functional understanding of the basic (in forms or drills), therefore they never get to the higher levels.

Part of Professor's genius was the ability to really see that things are all the same. Rather than identify 100 0problems and individual solutions, Professor had a keen understanding that there were maybe 12 problems (ie angles of attack), but arguably 4: from the left side, from the right side, from the top, or head on. Once the problem is put into one of those few categories, it is much easierto apply one of the countless solutions. He also understood that there are physical limits imposed on your opponent when you respond in a particular way. In essence the ability to close someone else's doors before they open.

If you take the time to develop skills and attributes through the drills or from the forms, a variety of doors open in your understanding of the art (arguably martial arts in general). In my opinion the Professor's art has applicability outside the sport/combat/self defense realm. At higher levels, it applies to problem solving and adapting to changing situations. Much of my success trying cases as a prosecutor, hinges on the awareness,redirecting and flow concepts so prevelant in this art

[stickarts]

Ditto. Of course there is also a great deal locked in the various drills he left us as well. Of course absent the hard work necessary to understand the form and glean application from it, you merely have a dance with punches and kicks. Many people stop exploring before they have a functional understanding of the basic (in forms or drills), therefore they never get to the higher levels.

Part of Professor's genius was the ability to really see that things are all the same. Rather than identify 100 0problems and individual solutions, Professor had a keen understanding that there were maybe 12 problems (ie angles of attack), but arguably 4: from the left side, from the right side, from the top, or head on. Once the problem is put into one of those few categories, it is much easierto apply one of the countless solutions. He also understood that there are physical limits imposed on your opponent when you respond in a particular way. In essence the ability to close someone else's doors before they open.

If you take the time to develop skills and attributes through the drills or from the forms, a variety of doors open in your understanding of the art (arguably martial arts in general). In my opinion the Professor's art has applicability outside the sport/combat/self defense realm. At higher levels, it applies to problem solving and adapting to changing situations. Much of my success trying cases as a prosecutor, hinges on the awareness,redirecting and flow concepts so prevelant in this art

Yep, That is one of many aspects that also made him a great teacher: his lessons were universal.

[MJS]

WOW! Thanks everyone for the fantastic replies!!:asian:

I stated that I'd wait for some replies before posting, so here goes:

One of the things I was hoping to expand on would be ground work. MA always had its locks, takedowns, etc., but I really didn't see much more. This view however changed for me though. Although I missed a good portion of this segment at the last Arnis camp in Cromwell, due to testing, I made it out in time to see Dr. Schea working quite a bit with the group, further expanding on the ground game.

Another area that I found interesting, was Master Ken Smith and his addition of pressure point strikes in many of the moves that we were doing. His work with Mr. Dillman is obviously making some impact and it was great to see the techniques tweaked with those added strikes.

Quite a few people have just returned from the Philippines. I think its great that these people traveled that far to train with some of the Masters there, exploring the differences between the more traditional way of doing things, to the more modern way that we seem to be doing things here. IMO, if the people keep training the art that The Prof. left us, Arnis will continue to go strong well into the future.

Mike

[MJS]

LOL! I am the opposite. I prefer the emptyhand forms although the stick forms have their uses too!

Yes, I'm in agreement with you on this one. I prefer the empty hand to the cane, but I agree, the stick forms do have alot of benefit. Putting a blade in our hands, at least for me, gives me a different feel to the way the form is done.

Mike

[Guro Harold]

The interesting form to me is the Anyo Dalawa cane form. It contains key techniques that also exist in other systems. It is truly an intersection point to other major stick systems.

[MJS]

I agree with this. And I don't mean to get off topic. I think in general any "genius" in the martial arts, any grandmaster truly worthy of creating a new system, comes up through the school of hard knocks. Any amount of dojo study may make one an expert, but it will never make one a grandmaster. That has to come, pardon the cliche, from the "street".

That brings up training methodology in Modern Arnis, the role of sparring and "aliveness", and the similarity or lack thereof between sparring and combat. I'd like to open up a discussion of this, although not necessarily in this thread.

I've noticed since I started studying Aikido that I can make Aikido techniques "work" in Aikido class, and Arnis techniques "work" in Arnis class, but often not vice-versa. One thing this tells me is that like most arts that don't train against much resistance, the efficacy of the techniques FOR ME in both arts is dependant on a particular assumed response from my training partner. This is well known in Aikido, where uke is often criticized for "throwing themself". But many of the patterns I have learned in Modern Arnis have been dependent on the partner reacting in a particular way, whether it was blocking, grabbing the stick, etc.

What I'm saying is, Professor could always make a technique work, and knew when to tell a student how to make it work, and when the student was just doing it wrong. Now that he's gone, how do we train "outside the box" of predictable responses WITHOUT abandoning the art and skill for free-for-all MMA sparring? In most Modern Arnis programs I've seen, there is very little free play, sitck or empty hand, for at least the first several years of training.

I don't think this is off topic. As I said in my initial post, I feel that this would fall into the "Would you like to see anything different" category. In my classes, my inst. will take out the headgear, gloves and padded sticks. Its certainly an eye opener as to how someone is really going to be swinging a stick. We regularly explore how the disarms, etc. will work when someone is really swinging. One point, is that you'll find that timing is a big part, as well as what parts of the initial disarm will be most effective.

As for the aliveness and resistance...this, IMHO, is something that should always be included. Its always been a pet peeve of mine, to have someone always go with everything that I do. Again, this is something that my inst. works with us, on a regular basis. Its often a neglected but very important part of training IMO.

Mike

[stickarts]

The interesting form to me is the Anyo Dalawa cane form. It contains key techniques that also exist in other systems. It is truly an intersection point to other major stick systems.

For me, that form is all about learning the footwork. Its right out of swordplay as well as sticks.

[Guro Harold]

For me, that form is all about learning the footwork. Its right out of swordplay as well as sticks.
No Doubt!! All of the cane forms can be executed with a blade. The Professor demonstrates this in the 80's tape series:).

[Andy Moynihan]

In the future, I think Modern Arnis will be pretty much the same, except we'll all go to our nightly Modern Arnis class in flying cars.

"JAAAAAANE! Stop this crazy thiiiiiiiiiiiiing!!!"

[Datu Tim Hartman]

http://wmarnis.com/video/sword.mpg

:jediduel:

[Rich Parsons]

There are many great people passing on the art of Modern Arnis. These people have put in alot of hard work and dedication to passing on this great art to others.

My question is: Where do you envision Modern Arnis in the future years? Will the teaching remain the same or will improvements or innovations be included? Is there anything in the art that you would like to see different?

I have a few thoughts, but would like to hear from others first.

Mike


Short term Future (* Next 5 to 10 years *) I think it will much like today.

Long term I see some people keeping things as a tradition. I see others playing and answering questions. If one takes the basic techniques and or concepts they can work out an answer for the new questions that will arise. And I see some doing both.

What I would like to see, is acceptance. Yes things were said, and people did things, but place them on the floor and let them teach, and see what they can offer. Accept them for what they are and can offer, not for something in the past.

[modarnis]

What I would like to see, is acceptance. Yes things were said, and people did things, but place them on the floor and let them teach, and see what they can offer. Accept them for what they are and can offer, not for something in the past.

Very true. Many of the folks who post here cross train with different people and groups. The seeds of acceptance are being planted. My guess is it will take a good while for them to grow

[stickarts]

The future of arnis is whatever we make it! At times we may have been a bit of a dysfunctional family, but we are family nonetheless! :)
We all hold the art collectively. I have worked with many practicioners with very different strengths and viewpoints and they all had something to offer!

[Rich Parsons]

The future of arnis is whatever we make it! At times we may have been a bit of a dysfunctional family, but we are family nonetheless! :)
We all hold the art collectively. I have worked with many practicioners with very different strengths and viewpoints and they all had something to offer!

Yes, we do not have to be best of friends and loan each other money. But just acceptance and ability to work with each other. :)

Peace all
:asian: