Training "Both Sides"

[Jade Tigress]

Do you train both sides? By that, I mean when you learn a technique, do you practice it on both sides, or alternate, or do you practice the technique on one side only with the thought that once it is mastered on the side it is taught, it is easily *flipped* to the untrained side when needed.

I have my own thoughts on this but want to hear some other opinions first.

[Paul B]

We train both sides from Day One.

Everything that we practice,whether it be strikes,kicks,locks,falling,weapons,etc.. must be trainied on both sides. Of course,we all have our "special" side..but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to develope decent technique with it.

"Grab my wrist..No the other wrist..With your other hand" doesn't work very well,ya know. :lol: I think that when our technique needs to be there..it should be there regardless of our preference of right or left.

[mantis]

Do you train both sides? By that, I mean when you learn a technique, do you practice it on both sides, or alternate, or do you practice the technique on one side only with the thought that once it is mastered on the side it is taught, it is easily *flipped* to the untrained side when needed.

I have my own thoughts on this but want to hear some other opinions first.
both sides altho one side is significantly more skilled and controlled than the other. In theory you are able to "flip" the technique in practice but in reality this technique should be ready to be "flipped" in your mind. The only way to do so is by practicing the mind by training the other side as well.
good post!

[Kacey]

Yes - every technique is trained on both sides of the body. The non-dominant side may need more training; on the other hand, for myself, I find it varies by technique, but I am often more flexible on my non-dominant side, and have more power on my dominant side - but sometimes that changes depending on what technique I'm doing.

[michaeledward]

I do not train techniques on both sides. At this point, I have not yet learned all of the base techniques in American Kenpo, as I understand it. Currently, I have learned 151 or the 159 techniques my instructor lists before beginning the Extentions.

Once I learn all of the techniques, I hopefully will be able to gain a further understanding about the 'family groupings' and what each of the techniques teaches us, I might then be able to find places in the field of study where there are weaknesses left unaddressed. Perhaps those discovered weaknesses could be addressed by running a known technique on the opposite side.

But for the moment, my instructor, and his instructor, do not train these techniques on the other side.

Of course, if someone grabs my left lapel with their left hand, the opposite of Delayed Sword will work, but so will Snapping Twig as it is taught will work, won't it? That may be an over-simplification, but I'll have to wait until I have more base knowledge to find out, I think.

[Jade Tigress]

But for the moment, my instructor, and his instructor, do not train these techniques on the other side.

Of course, if someone grabs my left lapel with their left hand, the opposite of Delayed Sword will work, but so will Snapping Twig as it is taught will work, won't it? That may be an over-simplification, but I'll have to wait until I have more base knowledge to find out, I think.

I understand what you're saying and it's what I was trying to say by "flipping" the technique when needed.

Personally, I believe you have to train both sides. The non-dominant side may take more work and training, but how do you get something into "muscle memory" if the muscles aren't trained?

[SFC JeffJ]

Also both sides from day one. Of course my dominant side is much better than my weak side, and always will be. There is one technique in our style that I've only seen one person be able to consistently do weak side though, the third variation of Ni-Ho Nage. I told myself I'd be able to do it weak side as well as strong, but have yet to be able to do it. Just need more practice at it.

JeffJ

[stickarts]

We do work both sides, although I admit, not equally. My right side is sttronger and probably always will be.
Maybe this is something for me to work on!

[Rich Parsons]

I have to agree that when I fight and spar I most likely will execute a right handed technique.

Although I do train both the dominate and non-dominate, but while not 100% equal on both sides I can hit and throw with both hands and also I prefer to swim with the breath stroke being left, so I just go with the flow on what feels best for me.

But yes I work both sides and also teach both sides.

[tshadowchaser]

We train both sides
we even have some of the students do their forms beginning to end going in the opposite direction ( i first move was a right front stance then they start with a left front stance, etc.)

[Flying Crane]

I've always been an advocate of training both sides. It took me a few years before I even realized that not everyone does this.

[Xue Sheng]

I train both sides in technique and form.

[IcemanSK]

[quote=Paul B]
"Grab my wrist..No the other wrist..With your other hand" doesn't work very well,ya know. :lol: quote]

That's right up there with, "Wait Mr. Bad Guy, I have to stretch before I kick you." :rofl:

I think working from both sides is VITAL to MA training. Having difficulties w/ my right side from Cerebral Palsy, I'd have never worked my right side had my instructor constantly pushed using both sides. The only thing I'm abidextrous with IS sparring. When I boxed, I was a Southpaw who would switch mine opponent got comfortable.

Because you can't say, "Grab my other wrist."

[Bigshadow]

Do you train both sides? By that, I mean when you learn a technique, do you practice it on both sides, or alternate, or do you practice the technique on one side only with the thought that once it is mastered on the side it is taught, it is easily *flipped* to the untrained side when needed.

I have my own thoughts on this but want to hear some other opinions first.
That is a good question. First I will say, I don't train both sides consistently or even frequently. My opinion is that when you learn how to do something left handed, you can do it right handed. The caveat is that the "other" side will not have the finesse to do it with elegance. Take writing for instance. I am left handed when I write. Sure I can write with my right hand, but it isn't as elegant. But it works. I am not against training the "other" side, I just don't do it regulary. But we do from time to time. When we do, it isn't *that* much different, it doesn't feel unnatural or new, maybe a little awkward, but that is it.

So my answer would be, it probably would depend on your training goals. Just my opinions on the subject.

[Bigshadow]

but how do you get something into "muscle memory" if the muscles aren't trained?
My arguement to that is that "muscle memory" really has nothing to do with the muscles but what the brain perceives or feels. The brain can flip these things quite easily. Say for instance, how often do you eat with the fork in your left hand? However, I bet you could easily pick of the fork with the left hand and eat? no? That is how the brain can flip the "technique" to the other side. IMHO, I am not convinced one has to constantly do the same thing on both sides.

[pstarr]

We train both sides from day one.

I will say that "muscle memory" really does have a lot to do with the muscles - and the idea of the brain being able to effectively "flip", say, a right-handed movement to the left side without much trouble just isn't true.

Sure, you can use a fork with your left hand to eat. But try to do it quickly. :)

It is absolutely essential to train both sides of the body.

[Bigshadow]

Sure, you can use a fork with your left hand to eat. But try to do it quickly. :)


Want to see me do it? ;)

[Adept]

My arguement to that is that "muscle memory" really has nothing to do with the muscles but what the brain perceives or feels. The brain can flip these things quite easily. Say for instance, how often do you eat with the fork in your left hand? However, I bet you could easily pick of the fork with the left hand and eat? no? That is how the brain can flip the "technique" to the other side. IMHO, I am not convinced one has to constantly do the same thing on both sides.

Sure. Now try putting the computer mouse on the left hand side of your computer. A lot harder to use, no? Now try writing left handed. Again, much harder. If you don't practice something, you won't be able to do it as smoothly as you could if you did practice it.

You're right in that muscle memory is a misnomer. Muscles cannot remember anything. What does happen is that frequently used nerve connections become stronger and faster, from your fingertips all the way to your brain. However, doing something constantly with one side (such as eating with a fork) will only reinforce the nerves required to do that thing on that one side. The other side will remain untrained. You can't just 'flip' your training over.

[MJS]

Do you train both sides? By that, I mean when you learn a technique, do you practice it on both sides, or alternate, or do you practice the technique on one side only with the thought that once it is mastered on the side it is taught, it is easily *flipped* to the untrained side when needed.

I have my own thoughts on this but want to hear some other opinions first.

I have worked a number of techniques on the left side. Many times this has been done while teaching. For example: when teaching someone a new tech. it was often easier for them to get the 'mental picture' if I was standing in front of them. I'd do the tech. on the left or the right, depending on the tech. and they'd simply mirror my movements.

Mike

[Bigshadow]

Sure. Now try putting the computer mouse on the left hand side of your computer. A lot harder to use, no? Now try writing left handed. Again, much harder. If you don't practice something, you won't be able to do it as smoothly as you could if you did practice it.

Actually, if you read my first post, I stated the other side wouldn't have the finesse. I do argue the level of difficulty, though. I don't believe the level of difficulty is significantly different, to the extent it could be death in a survival situation. I don't disagree there is a difference.

[Xue Sheng]

"Grab my wrist..No the other wrist..With your other hand" .

I have been at a few demos put on by supposed black belts or masters that were showing their expertise in self defense that for some reason pick me out of the crowd to use for the test subject, why they pick on me I don't know, but I generally hear either, No attack with the other hand or hey your not suppose to relax.

How effective can these guys really be?

[Kacey]

Sure. Now try putting the computer mouse on the left hand side of your computer. A lot harder to use, no? Now try writing left handed. Again, much harder. If you don't practice something, you won't be able to do it as smoothly as you could if you did practice it.

You're right in that muscle memory is a misnomer. Muscles cannot remember anything. What does happen is that frequently used nerve connections become stronger and faster, from your fingertips all the way to your brain. However, doing something constantly with one side (such as eating with a fork) will only reinforce the nerves required to do that thing on that one side. The other side will remain untrained. You can't just 'flip' your training over.

Nice example - and I agree; that's why I think all techniques should be practiced on both sides as well.

[Jade Tigress]

I understand the concept BigShadow is stating but not the practicality of relying on the "flip". I think it's more efficient to train both sides from the start because of the time factor involved to ever get something to flip with any semblance of effectiveness.

You would have to train one side for a long time and then still not have 100% efficacy if presented with a flip situation. I have been taught both ways and can say I definitely do not feel comfortable trying to flip something. It slows everything down and feels awkward. There are some basic techniques and kicks that flip more easily but they are still awkward to perform on the non-dominant side. I would rather overcome the awkwardness of learning a technique on the non-dominant side in a training situation, where I can become stronger, and more accustomed to performing the techinique in a controlled enviroment, than have to rely on executing a technique flipped in an unexpected situation.

[tradrockrat]

uh... maybe I'm slow, but I never realized people don't train both sides. Seems pretty much like a no brainer to me.

For all the reasons previously stated, you really must train both sides. Especially drills and individual techniques - they need to be as smooth on your left as they are on your right.

[michaeledward]

uh... maybe I'm slow, but I never realized people don't train both sides. Seems pretty much like a no brainer to me.

For all the reasons previously stated, you really must train both sides. Especially drills and individual techniques - they need to be as smooth on your left as they are on your right.

Ever play baseball?
Do you change your glove from one hand to the other in the middle of the game? Do you decide to bat one way or the other based on which hand the pitcher throws with?

How about Tennis? Players usually hold the racket in just one hand, from which, they use a forehand and backhand swing.

Why do you suppose that is?


P.S. tradrockrat ... this reply is really not directed at you.
I am a bit surprised at how many people seem to be saying they do everything they study on both sides. I think I am the only person who has posted that I do not. This just surprises me. I quoted you, because you were the last poster in the group.

[Haze]

Train both sides. Most applications are in our katas (Okinawan karate) and katas seem to balance both sides with the same techniques. When practicing just the technique we do both sides.

[Carol]

"Grab my wrist..No the other wrist..With your other hand" doesn't work very well,ya know. :lol: I think that when our technique needs to be there..it should be there regardless of our preference of right or left.

And the way I train, it isn't "grab my other wrist" ;) My training is very right side dominant. The design of the techniques take this in to consideration so you fight the way your body *is* and not the way the body should arguably be.

Just the way I do it though :asian:

[green meanie]

I train both sides but I think the way I train would be best compared to the baseball and tennis analogies offered by michaeledward.
I think it's important to be able to do something on both sides. I don't believe it necessarily has to be the same technique.

I have some things I specifically like to do on one side and other things I prefer to do on the other. I don't think that it matters. The only thing that matters to me is that I have an effective arsenal regardless of where I'm at. It's a sad situation when a person's entire offense can be completely neutralized simply by making them switch their feet -or by you switching yours. :asian:

[tradrockrat]

Ever play baseball?
Do you change your glove from one hand to the other in the middle of the game? Do you decide to bat one way or the other based on which hand the pitcher throws with?

How about Tennis? Players usually hold the racket in just one hand, from which, they use a forehand and backhand swing.

Why do you suppose that is?


P.S. tradrockrat ... this reply is really not directed at you.
I am a bit surprised at how many people seem to be saying they do everything they study on both sides. I think I am the only person who has posted that I do not. This just surprises me. I quoted you, because you were the last poster in the group.

No worries. :)

I get your point. However, when I'm fighting I can fight south paw or not, depending on the situation - it just makes sense to be equally versed on both sides. I think it's just apples and oranges to compare a narrowly focused sport like tennis (what can one do with tennis other than play tennis?) with martial arts and self defense

PS - I also batted either hand, depending on the pitcher. ;)

[michaeledward]

PS - I also batted either hand, depending on the pitcher. ;)

Did you field with either hand .... two gloves at once, perhaps ? ?

[Bigshadow]

I think I am the only person who has posted that I do not.

Not the only one ;) See my previous 2 posts. :D

[Xue Sheng]

I think I am the only person who has posted that I do not.

No big deal.

I never realized I was training both sides in Jujitsu until...well... right now and we never trained both sides in TDK, But since CMA it has been nothing but training both sides.

[tradrockrat]

Did you field with either hand .... two gloves at once, perhaps ? ?

Nah, I only wore the left hand glove when they wanted me to play first base...





...just kidding. ;)

Course the weird part is that I write left handed but play ball right handed

[Bigshadow]

Course the weird part is that I write left handed but play ball right handed

Sounds like me! :) Another lefty here.

[Swordlady]

I think training both sides also depends on the art as well. I've been training from both sides from day one in Aikido class. As for my YSKR class, most of the kata are executed from only one direction; although most of them can probably be "flipped" or adjusted for an attack from a different direction.

[tradrockrat]

All five basic "kata" of the ABA Bando system mirror themselves - that is you must perform each set on both sides of the body. So are our drills, of course. They are made that way for the express purposes of training both sides of the body equally. It's built right into the fabric of our system.

[Ceicei]

I am left handed. Many of kenpo techniques are geared to defend against primarily right handed attackers; however, most forms (katas) do require being able to do both sides well. As such, I do train all techniques on both sides just simply because I want to (and since left is my dominant side, learning to do on my left reinforces my understanding).

- Ceicei

[Adept]

Ever play baseball?
Do you change your glove from one hand to the other in the middle of the game? Do you decide to bat one way or the other based on which hand the pitcher throws with?

How about Tennis? Players usually hold the racket in just one hand, from which, they use a forehand and backhand swing.

While I take your point, the examples aren't really analogous. If you only train certain techniques on one side, when you cannot use that side in a confrontation, then your toolbox is significantly reduced.

Not relevant to everyone, but to those of us who train to defend ourselves I think it is important to be able to operate effectively even if one side is disabled or tied up.

[michaeledward]

I'm a bit bothered by the phrase ... but to those of us who train to defend ourselves ... that does seem to be a bit snarky, don't you think?

Well ... let's dig a bit deeper, then.

The first technique we usually learn in American Kenpo is 'Delayed Sword'. An uncomplicated technique consisting of several basics.

A Right Neutral Bow Stance
A Right Inward Block
A Right Snapping Ball Kick
A Right Outward HandswordThese basics are in play against a 'Right Handed Lapel Grab'.

If we going to train 'Both Sides', (the 'opposite' in Kenpo terminology as I understand it), the aggressor would be executing a 'Left Handed Lapel Grab'.

Don't we already have a technique or two for dealing with that? I'm thinking "Lone Kimono", "Conquering Shield", or maybe "Snapping Twig" (realizing this technique is often taught against a push). Or perhaps we could take some of the ideas taught for 'two handed lapel grabs' and apply them, such as "Mace of Aggression", "Raking Mace", and "Twin Kimono".

Given these six techniques can be used to defend oneself against a 'Left Handed Lapel Grab', what would be the benefit of practicing the opposite of Delayed Sword? The opposite of Delayed Sword would include these basics.

Left Neutral Bow Stance
Left Inward Block
Left Snapping Ball Kick
Left Outward HandswordI perform a Left Neutral Bow Stance in many techniques, beginning with "Attacking Mace". I perform Left Inward Block throughout the system, also beginning with "Attacking Mace". I perform a Left Snapping Ball Kick in "Checking the Storm". And the Left Outward Handsword can be found in the aforementioned "Snapping Twig".

Given further that the opposite basics that comprise 'Delayed Sword' can be found, and are utilized, in other techniques, is the a specific benefit to running these basics in the prescribed combinations of 'Delayed Sword', that is missing when choosing to leave out the 'Other Side' in your training?