sparring? The reason I ask is that I teach a Kenpo class at the local college. Yes, it is an accredited class. KenpoTess is my primary assistant. She feels that at first, when the class is introduced to sparring, we should segregate the males and the females. While I do not feel this is a bad idea, it is something I have never done. I am 98% sure I am going to implement it. I would like your input.

I was the only female in my last dojo so I didn't get the choice. I started martial arts knowing it was a mostly male populated 'thing' to do and was under no illusions that I might get hurt whilst training (and have been several times!). The other beginners (male) 'might' be just as uncertain as a woman about sparring and just as dangerous! Most people that attend a class long enough to go on to sparring do normally have the right attitude and until both male and female beginners learn the appropriate amount of control, hold themselves back enough to not cause serious injury. Mind you I have only ever attended an adults class - not sure what it would be like for kids?

Is this point sparring or something closer to boxing sparring? For the former, no segregation and for the latter, by weight and likely gender at first at least, in my opinion.

I've got to put my 2 cents into this one. I think that it will probably be a good idea, especially on the Thursday night class. I was point out that there are some really big guys in there, most of them beginners in martial arts and they don't realize how much power they have. That and there are some small girls in the class and they may feel really intimidated by such big guys with that much power. Some girls last semester I believe dropped because they were hit or kicked too hard. Not all the guys are like Chad and Billy with being not so aggressive and not to kill the person on the other end, especially if they are just begining. I think it would be a good idea until you figure out who has a lot of power behind those hits and kicks and is told they need to tone it down. But like I said it's only my 2 cents.

PS...to those who read this, remember that these are "beginners" at the college not in the dojo. We don't have a chose but to spar everyone in the dojo...but that is also after we have thought that person the basics or at least have set them aside and told them how much power they are allowed to use and the rules. :asian:

i have dealt with so many women that were so insecure about coed sparring that it makes perfect sense to start it out segregated. if a man or woman has a problem with it, tell them that at the next level, you will promote them to responsible coed free sparring.

Seig, I completely agree with your proposed approach. For some time now I have noticed that beginning females seem to be in MA classes for different reasons, and have different agendas, different things to 'prove' if you will, from males beginning in the MA. If the 'accepted' method, of throwing all students together to spar was working for women, I think that the participation and retention rates of women involved in this form of training really ought to be a lot higher. The lack of accommodation of the needs of women when starting out in such male-dominated activities, simply proves to many women, likely the women who could benefit most from such training, that the Art is simply not for them. Since anyone who trains in Kenpo knows very well that just about anyone can be suited to Kenpo training if it is adapted to the needs of the student, I believe that tailoring the class to the needs of the students, both male and female is certainly the way to go. Being thrown in the middle of a mixed group of unskilled Kenpo students encouraged to pound on each other would have taught me nothing but the fastest route to the exit door when I was a beginner. I would be interested in hearing about any differences you perceive in the all-female sparring group, as compared to the all-male sparring group. Please keep us posted! :lookie:

Originally posted by Shoto Tiger

Mind you I have only ever attended an adults class - not sure what it would be like for kids?

My daughter's experience in sparring training is a good example here. As the highest-ranked girl in a school with just a handful of female children involved, my daughter has never yet had the opportunity to spar with any other girls. When she was training for tournament a couple years ago as the only girl in a class full of boys, it was incredibly frustrating for all involved, spectators included. None of the boys really wanted to practice with her. When they did, they avoided hitting her whenever possible. When they did make contact, it was with great hesitation. As it turned out, those boys were terribly uncomfortable about the concept of hitting a girl. This was the 8 to 10 year old crowd. When my daughter got in some good shots, most of the boys acted humiliated by it. One parent who was often present occasionally yelled out to his son comments such as " are you gonna let yourself get hit by a GIRL???" and others in the same vein too numerous to list here.

The boys in the class only wanted to 'properly' practice with other boys, regardless of the tactics used by the instructor. It was, to them, a terrible humiliation to be 'beaten' by a girl. Cultural conditioning regarding how boys are to treat girls was deeply engrained in the whole lot of them. They truly believed that girls are different from boys, and must be treated differently. No amount of instruction in those classes seems to have any effect on changing these attitudes.

In the end, my daughter never received adequate sparring training prior to tournament. She had never really experienced being punched and kicked in the manner she discovered was used at tournaments until she was in the ring, fighting. She was the only girl in the children's sparring divisions at this tournament. In her first match, her larger male opponent totally tenderized her by pounding her with a repeated thrust kick to her upper chest, leaving her black and blue for several weeks after. By the second match, she was in tears. She hung in there gamely, but after the tournament she asked to quit sparring entirely. Her reason? "I just don't like it. It isn't any fun at all. I wanna wait till I'm old enough for the all-girls divisions."

And I had to agree with her, after seeing what had led up to her decision. Now, a few years later and a whole lot bigger, the kid is again interested in sparring, but only because there is finally another girl in the school, an Orange Belt who my daughter thinks 'looks fun to spar with.' And I think that her point was well taken. If it's not fun, fails to teach you what you need to know to succeed, and ends up hurting your spirit as well as your body, even a child knows that there is no point to continuing. :soapbox:

I have to say that there could be some intimidation for a small woman to get up in a ring with a larger man when just begining. I think it is perfectly acceptable to start out segregated. If they have a problem sparring coed, just explain the reasoning, and let them know that they will eventually graduate into coed. Makes perfect sense to me. You have to start small to start at all.


7sm

Yeah... I guess you could do that.. I personally had no preference to that..then again i wasn't sparring my first class anyways.. i didn't do that until at least 2 weeks...
Fuzzy.. what you said.. and i know its not you.. its just the example you told.. about how some girls dropped out after they got kicked hard by a guy... WELL.. i would have been talking to those guys.. I mean.. A) if your sparring on your first class (big no no in my book) i would never put a Larger guy with a petit girl...and
2) If the sparring was taking place say like 2 weeks into the course.. shouldn't the guys know better... Dang.. Student safety sould be a primary concern.. if the bigger guys can't show some control (if i read correctly these are college guys too not some 13yr old pre-teen) after 2 -3 weeks into training... maybe they should be kicked around..

Im sorry but... that kind of stuff shouldn't have to happen..
THAT's probably the reason why.. NOW adays you almost have to have segregated sparring sessions... its really a shame.. because i enjoy training and working with guys..

Here's another idea.. why don't you ask your students what they would prefer.......
but that's just my opinion.. does it really matter though??? LOL

I don't mean any disrespect.. im just sick of the fact that you have to do these kind of things (sparring segregation) in the year 2002...

nuff said...:asian:

Eraser, I totally agree that if they hit or kick too hard they need to be taken aside and told so. I can name a few instances when Seig, Tess, and others have had to do that. I have no problem sparring with the guys, but when I started I must say I was highly intimidated by them. Especially considering that they all tower over me. Some of the guys though when you tell them they have to tone it down take it offensively or something. Others are cool about it and they do what is asked of them. Those that don't tone it down normally have to go up against Seig a couple of times and he usually puts them in their place and we normally have no problems with them after that or else they drop the class. Now though I love working with the guys they are normally more challenging, except when i spar with Tess. :asian:

Originally posted by Seig

sparring? The reason I ask is that I teach a Kenpo class at the local college. Yes, it is an accredited class. KenpoTess is my primary assistant. She feels that at first, when the class is introduced to sparring, we should segregate the males and the females. While I do not feel this is a bad idea, it is something I have never done. I am 98% sure I am going to implement it. I would like your input.

At first it may be ok, but if some of the women want to go at it with the men, that's ok too.:cool:

I'd say don't intentionally set out to segregate, but for the first few sparring classes, let them choose their own partner, someone they're comfortable with.

Nightingale, I think that approach would work well in classes where people already know each other. In the college setting Tess is dealing with it was not clear whether the students were all new to each other or whether they already knew each other from other classes at the college. Could familiarity with the other people in the class make it less intimidating for women just starting training? Do the guys in such classes even care if women are intimidated by the activities involved in MA training? :confused:

if they don't know each other, they'll pick someone who's physical stature they are comfortable with. girls will probably pair up with girls, and guys with guys. they'll segregate themselves on their own. If you segregate them on purpose, the girls are getting the message that they have a reason to be afraid of the guys.

Originally posted by nightingale8472

if they don't know each other, they'll pick someone who's physical stature they are comfortable with. girls will probably pair up with girls, and guys with guys. they'll segregate themselves on their own. If you segregate them on purpose, the girls are getting the message that they have a reason to be afraid of the guys.

Iagree 100% Nightingale. Girls tend to be tentative to begin with. If you keep them apart it will only add to fear factor, and when they do start and the boys hit harder than the girls they will hate it even more.

Both males and females have to learn to hit as hard as they are being hit. If a male is sparring with a female and that female is hitting lightly then the guy needs to measure his strikes to match, and perhaps a little harder. As the girl gets use to the feel of fighting that’s when to increase the intencity.

Believe me I know the down side to fighting guys. I was an orange belt, first female to spar in my previous school in a long time. My first time I was to spar with two, what we called "black belt candidates" equivalent to a First Brown in AK. I was nervous but willing to try from the very first punch I knew I was in trouble. They may have pulled their punches but to me it didn't feel like it. I was expecting "taps" to start, but got some extremely solid punches to the head. I survived that one, the next time we sparred one of them did a spinning kick and got me right in the eye. I had a back eye for a week. I never sparred them again. I started sparring again with a BB that had a ton of control, and then I started to enjoy sparring.

I know accidents happen but it's no good scaring the cr@p out of the new students. I use to make sure when I spar a new partner that there is only light contact. When they start hitting back with more confidence and strength, that's my que to turn it up a notch. There are those of course that I spar that we usually make solid contact with each other. I am just getting back into sparring again after an absence it's tough to get your wind back, and I appreciate my partners taking it easy on me, until such time as I can take the sparring like I use too.

Dot
:asian:

I think it's important for people, especially women, to ease into sparring. I'm always hearing about women being uncertain about whether they'll get hurt or not. What I've done is incorporated a drill called "flow sparring" into the regular, non-sparring class. It's basically sparring without the contact. The goal is to flow between punches and kicks, moving in and out like a real sparring match. But, you don't have to worry about getting hit.

This teaches people how to move and how to incorporate their sparring knowledge slowly. They're able to practice just one technique if they'd like. Since it's non-contact, people are more at ease and you can fight just about anybody.

One thing to be careful of, though, is don't let them get into a game of tag. You go more slowly than regular sparring, and your goal is movement and strikes rather than getting the strike in.

Once people are comfortable with this, I find it easier for them to do the contact sparring classes.

WhiteBirch

We have that kind of sparring in our classes quite regularly... we call it No contact sparring... (wow.. creative name eh??)
it can be fun too... But im wanting now to get into some contact sparring .. of course with the proper gear on...

;)

Originally posted by Eraser

We have that kind of sparring in our classes quite regularly... we call it No contact sparring... (wow.. creative name eh??)
it can be fun too... But im wanting now to get into some contact sparring .. of course with the proper gear on...

;)

LMAO Well Eraser my dear, in 10 days your wish will be granted, in a BIG way!!! It will be our pleasure to initiate you into contact sparring. :asian:

P.S. your life insurance is paid and up to date isn't it? :angel:

Jeesh Eraser, you'd better wear a whole lotta pads and steel-toed sparring boots for this one! K-G means biznizz!!!

:boxing:

Naw, we are just teasing Eraser. Our school is no different then most reputable schools. We start off with Shadow Boxing then we move into Pad Sparring when someone comes straight at you with a kicking pad and you have to kick and punch the pad to get use to someone advancing on you. When someone starts sparring it's boxing first. No head contact, and light body contact, we move up from there.

See, we are quite harmless. :angel:

Of course for special occations we can pull out all the stops for special guests, but we'll talk about that another day. heh heh

Originally posted by KenpoGirl

Naw, we are just teasing Eraser. Our school is not the most reputable school.

See, we are quite harmless. :angel:

Of course for special occations we can pull out all the stops for special guests, but we'll talk about that another day. heh heh

Eraser, don't believe everything you read on the internet, you just can't tell bout people in this day and age!! LMAO!!

:redcaptur

Originally posted by KenpoGirl



LMAO Well Eraser my dear, in 10 days your wish will be granted, in a BIG way!!! It will be our pleasure to initiate you into contact sparring. :asian:

P.S. your life insurance is paid and up to date isn't it? :angel:
Hey! Save that for the London thread, this is my thread and if this continues, I'm gonna pout and That is Not Pretty!

Originally posted by Seig


Hey! Save that for the London thread, this is my thread and if this continues, I'm gonna pout and That is Not Pretty!

:uhohh:
Yes Sir, Mr. Seig, Sir!!!

Please don't pout Sir. :anic:

Quietly tip toeing back to London thread.

CRYING?????????
THERE's NO CRYING IN MARTIAL TALK!!!

hehehehehehe;)

Originally posted by Eraser

CRYING?????????
THERE's NO CRYING IN MARTIAL TALK!!!

hehehehehehe;)
I never said anything about crying, I said "pout". There is a difference.:rolleyes:

Pouting is a skill liberally displayed in MT in case you haven't noticed! Complaining too! We haven't seen much crying tho, I may have to start a new trend!

:wah:

Originally posted by tunetigress

Pouting is a skill liberally displayed in MT in case you haven't noticed! Complaining too! We haven't seen much crying tho, I may have to start a new trend!

:wah:
Would you like some help?:EG:

Oh, thank-you Seig, I surely need all the help I can get right about now. So much to cry about, I was thinking about starting a Kenpo Krying Kwire. LOL, misery loves company!

:waah: :waah: :waah:

In my dojo, there are women that no man should mess with. So I would disagree with segragated sparring. Also chances are on the street they are going to be attacked by a man not a woman.

Originally posted by Kenpo_student

In my dojo, there are women that no man should mess with. So I would disagree with segragated sparring. Also chances are on the street they are going to be attacked by a man not a woman.
I agree with you , to a point. My studio is the same way. However, we are not talking about the studio, we are talking about a college class. :asian:

I also agree that most likely a woman will be attacked by a man in the streets so she should learn how to spar one at least. BUT... if a newbie doesn't feel comfortable sparring a man, they will up and quit. No matter what you tell them.

I would prefer to ease them into sparring more gently. Let them spar segregated at first if they want to. If they think they can spar with a guy, let them do that too. Pretty soon they'll see that it won't make a difference and they may learn something about themselves.

WhiteBirch

Hi,

I'm new to the list but I wanted to put my two cents in on this. I think that martial arts are an equalizer.

Many of your students probably are taking this class to learn to defend themselves. If they are female, most likely they are trying to learn how to defend themselves from males. To remove them from sparring with the most likely class of opponents, I think, defeats the purpose. Ultimately sparring others regardless of weight or sex would give the most realistic and valuable training.

Also by creating a situation that's segregated by sex you create a "separate but equal" type of classroom culture which is inherently unequal. You would be perpetuating a piece of society that says that women are naturally weaker than men, the same segment that says women naturally are easier targets.

I would suggest that rather than sex being the determinant, weight be the determinant instead, if indeed you feel still that there needs to be segregation. There are probably a few males in the class that are slightly built and would benefit from sparring at first with people of the same build.

I would like to see what you decide.


Bart Hubbard

initially, a lot of women are wary of working with men... they're afraid of getting injured, because men, by nature, are bigger and stronger.

It may be a good idea to start a "women's self defense" class that runs for six weeks or so, and the last two weeks, find two or three trustworthy male blackbelts or upper ranks to act as attackers. Then try to sign the women up for regular classes with both genders.

Originally posted by Seig

sparring? The reason I ask is that I teach a Kenpo class at the local college. Yes, it is an accredited class. KenpoTess is my primary assistant. She feels that at first, when the class is introduced to sparring, we should segregate the males and the females. While I do not feel this is a bad idea, it is something I have never done. I am 98% sure I am going to implement it. I would like your input.

Seig,

This might have been said by others so read with some tolerance.

If you separate from the beginning, you are setting a precedence.
If you separate from the beginning, you might be perceived as being sexist or discriminatory. Being on a college campus these are things that one should avoid.

Personally, I think the women should spar according to skill and weight class. This might mean that they spar more women then men, but they should mix it up with men also. Men need to learn that women can hit also. Women need to learn that they can hit men also. (* All in self-defense or in sparring *)

I wish you luck and success

Rich
:asian:

For those who have been wondering what the out come of the segregating was at the college here it is. Seig and some of the guys from the studio sparred the guys at first and Tess and some of us girls from the studio sparred the girls, that is for the first half of the class to get an idea of who we needed to keep an eye on and so on. In the one class that I do help Seig and Tess with we really didn't have too much of a problem with the guys and the girls when they did put them together...there were those exceptions though. Most of the girls in that class have had Seig for Karate I and some of them gave some of the guys a run for their money, other guys felt kind of weird sparring girls half their size, they learned that we could hold our ground and that they needed to defend themselves from us and stop worrying about being afraid of hurting it...it was kind of funny seeing these 6 ft. plus guys backing off from some of these smaller girls. All in all most of the kids in that class are really respectful and weren't out to see how many people's heads they could knock off.

As for seperating into weight classes...well Seig and Tess have a small studio and if that was the case I'd never get to spar with anyone except for a couple of people due to the fact that i'm now the shortest person there since one of the students left. I like to spar against the taller people just because it's more realistic for me...how many people 5 ft. are going to try and attack me? :)

I tend to agree with Bart.

But I have another question: if sparring is the problem, why not skip it? After all, sparring is much less like real self-defense than running techniques. Why not just work on basics, forms, techs, and the free-style sparring patters, until people get used to the whole big kenpo thang?

Interesting discussion: thanks.

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

I tend to agree with Bart.

But I have another question: if sparring is the problem, why not skip it? After all, sparring is much less like real self-defense than running techniques. Why not just work on basics, forms, techs, and the free-style sparring patters, until people get used to the whole big kenpo thang?

Interesting discussion: thanks.
Robert,
I love sparring and I hate the mystique and fear of it that I have seen in my travels. I also get 100 new sparring partners a year this way. Yes, I spar all of them at one time or another. There are too many things in our art for people to walk away with a fear of trying any of it.

If you all train together, then TRAIN TOGETHER! Including sparring. Or anything else. In martial arts, there is no "male" or "female." There is only training and sweat.

Your teacher may segregate groups because she fears that the ladies may be intimidated if they have to begin by sparring against males. THAT notion should be quashed from the outset.

On the street, the ladies likely won't be mugged by other ladies.

Too often, women are taught from childhood that they are (physically) weak and that fighting isn't "lady-like," and that men are SO much more powerful and aggressive and that they cannot possibly fight against a determined man.....

Hogwash.

BUT by segregating the groups for sparring, the instructor is reinforcing these very notions. She is doing her female students a terrible disservice.

Those were my sentiments exactly, but by segregating for the first half of the first class, we were able to over ride the intial fear of sparring. We then integrated with no ill effects and the result was a healthier attitude over all. We had far fewer injuries than ever before and the women got very excited about sparring when they realized they were not going to get pounded on their first attempt.

I agree with your approach. You might want them to all spar and be happy together, but a 5' woman will feel very intimidated being made to spar with a 6' man the first time out. I think it's better to let them get comfortable with the idea of sparring first, and then introduce them to different types of opponents. If they're not comfortable sparring men, they are more likely to quit outright. It's always better to let them learn to swim first than dropping them into the deep end of the pool.

WhiteBirch

Originally posted by nightingale8472
I'd say don't intentionally set out to segregate, but for the first few sparring classes, let them choose their own partner, someone they're comfortable with.

I agree with nightingale here, let them choose their partners.

There's nothing wrong in sparring with men (I'm a woman). The problem is trying to have people without control sparring with someone who feels unsure. But that's the instructor's job to have that student increase his/her control over his/her punches.

I can asure you I'll feel very frustrated if I'd only spar with women.

I think if you are going to make the women spar against the males, it should be done with one of the instructors instead of a beginner. This is what I usually do. Second I let them get stuff on me or try to coach them as they spar. Give them friendly reminders to keep their hands up. You are trying to build confidence in them not making them quit. I have seen more women quit over the sparring issues thn anything else.
Bob:asian:

The first time I sparred, as a purple belt at twelve years old, I literally got beat black and blue by a fiftten year old green belt guy. It took me two weeks to get up the courage to go back to the studio, and until brown belt (six years later!) to get up the confidence to show up at a sparring class again. Sparring wasn't required on our belt tests, so I just didn't do it. That one time scared me so much that I just didn't go back, and I still avoid it whenever I can, especially if I'm sparring someone I don't know.

There is just something wrong with a twelve year old coming home with so many bruises that her back, chest, and arms are completely purple, and its hard to distinguish between bruises because they all ran together! My mother flipping out at the sight probably didn't help matters much either.

The guy in question was known for a complete lack of control, and if I'd been able to pick my own partner, I'd have picked one of the black belt women who I knew would work with me rather than beat on me, and I probably wouldn't have the issues I have about it today.

It helps if you have a brother quite your age to fight with when you're a kid:rofl: :rofl:
He still thinks I'm a dummy for jujutsu techniques:mad:

Lol. my bro is two years younger than me, so I always won the fights over the remote control.

When i went to a dojo they did not segregate male and female in sparring. I think this is good because sometimes you might have to protect your self and you should treat them the same reguardless of gender.

Women are the toughest fighters!! If you don't train against them you are missing out! The toughest fights I have ever seen were with women. :)

especially against one that you will never fight back against.....:(

We're about to start another semester at the college and I have noticed that the female to male ratio is steadily increasing. That is a very encouraging sign. I have found that the single hardest thing to get the women to do is to actually hit someone. They seem to be getting better at it though.

Originally posted by Seig
We're about to start another semester at the college and I have noticed that the female to male ratio is steadily increasing. That is a very encouraging sign. I have found that the single hardest thing to get the women to do is to actually hit someone. They seem to be getting better at it though.

You ought to be one to know that for a fact as well!!!! :D

We recently had 4 adult women join (their kids were students) of them one had previous MA experience so she is doing well in regards to contact, 3 an extremely wishy washy, having to be constantly reminded to hit harder and 1 hit and kicked really hard and we had to explain that though good strong strikes are excellent, its best not to maim your instructor or fellow students because you'd eventually run out of partners. ;)

When I first started to train I had no problem hitting and kicking the pads hard but when working with a partner I was terrible. I think it's when I started sparring that I learned I better hit or get hit. :anic: After that their was no going back. ;) LOL though when working with a partner on techiques I tend to go light until I can guage how much they are willing to take and how much I can control my strikes.

If these women continue training up to orange belt and start sparring I'm not sure how they are going to react. Hopefully it will teach them like it taught me that you better hit back if someone is hitting or trying to hit you. :D

Dot

Personally, I prefer sparring against males. I feel that against males (unless there is a female who is better and more experienced than myself) I get much better training and I learn more. I don't expect them to hold back with me and that's why I don't like sparring against most females - I like to go 100% and take as many lumps as I give. You can probably tell which of your students are afraid of getting hit or hitting someone and which ones are not, so I would say that without quite segregating, just pair them up accordingly. If you segregate across the board, then you may end up with some female students who feel short-changed because they wouldn't have the chance to spar with males. I know I would. Also, I think that if proper control is taught in general, getting hurt should not be an issue. In class you spar to improve your training, not kill each other. A certain amount of trust must be present between students also and then differences in size and gender don't matter.

For Competition Tournament fighting, or Competition COntact fighting: Segregation is important for fairness (gender, weight-class, age, experience).

For In Class sparring or training: I am highly against segregation, especially for womens self defence purposes. I just believe that most women who are attacked are attacked by men, and they need to learn how to defend themselves against men, especially men who may have a weight/strength advantage.

:cool:

agreed.

Originally posted by PAUL

For In Class sparring or training: I am highly against segregation, especially for womens self defence purposes. I just believe that most women who are attacked are attacked by men, and they need to learn how to defend themselves against men, especially men who may have a weight/strength advantage.

:cool:

Paul,

Can't argue with you there. My philosophy too.

- Ceicei

Tess and Seig, how has this worked out for you and your female students? For our new members here, what do you do in your schools? In our school we had a separate class for woman to begin with and for me this was the right way to go. The sparring equipment alone was strange and difficult to get used to let alone worry about defending yourself against some big, scary :uhoh: guys. Most woman have never worn things like groin protectors and mouth guards and it is distracting to say the least. Also as Seig said earlier in this thread, the hardest thing for women is to hit other people. I know that was hard for me. We started out really careful and by the time we attended mixed classes I was much more comfortable and confident! Looking back...it's funny that I was scared :rofl: Now some of those big scary guys are just big slow guys to me. You just have to be careful that when you take out the big guys they don't also take you out as they fall. :boing1:

Our main sparring class usually has 8 people (3 adults; me and two older gentleman, a 15 yo girl, and her 13 yo brother; both children of one of the other men, my 12 yo son and 10 yo daughter, and another 10 yo boy; son of the other man)

We tend to naturally more by height than by sex; but our instructor makes us mix it up. Lauren (the 15 yo girl), kicks with the most power generated from speed and technique. My daughter can kick hard but often doesn't in sparring. The other men are slower than me and most of their power comes from mass. I consider everyone a challenge in different ways.

I think it's important in sparring to not think of the opponent as 'male/female' but just as a moving body with target areas and threats.

I think it's important in sparring to not think of the opponent as 'male/female' but just as a moving body with target areas and threats.I like that :) ...Jay do you find your daughter, having trained as a younger person, was perhaps less fearful of sparring? I wonder sometimes if children/girls who train at an early age are more accepting of it all, as opposed to women who begin training later in life. Thoughts anyone?

For an initial lesson, it might be a good idea, but only as a brief stepping stone.

Personally, I had a lot of trouble thowing honest strikes at female practitioners. It didn't matter to me that the lady I first squared off against was a LOT better and fully capable of handling anything I could send out.

A lot of guys (good ones, in my opinion) have a very deep belief that it is NEVER ok to hit a lady. Working through that, and learning to spar at the same time seems like a lot to tackle at once.

A lot of guys (good ones, in my opinion) have a very deep belief that it is NEVER ok to hit a lady. Working through that, and learning to spar at the same time seems like a lot to tackle at once.I believe that you are right that this could work both ways!:asian:

Tess and Seig, how has this worked out for you and your female students? For our new members here, what do you do in your schools? In our school we had a separate class for woman to begin with and for me this was the right way to go. The sparring equipment alone was strange and difficult to get used to let alone worry about defending yourself against some big, scary :uhoh: guys. Most woman have never worn things like groin protectors and mouth guards and it is distracting to say the least. Also as Seig said earlier in this thread, the hardest thing for women is to hit other people. I know that was hard for me. We started out really careful and by the time we attended mixed classes I was much more comfortable and confident! Looking back...it's funny that I was scared :rofl: Now some of those big scary guys are just big slow guys to me. You just have to be careful that when you take out the big guys they don't also take you out as they fall. :boing1:
MJ - Must've been before I came on board.

I sparred only women at my first school, and it was a big mistake, which I kind of rectified by finding a woman larger than I am (not too difficult:)) and higher ranking to work with. It helped a great deal within that particular program, since sparring was segregated at that time. Since then, and at two other schools in two other styles, I've sparred against both men and women, and it makes quite a difference. Yes, there's the "I've never hit a woman before" thing for men -- but what if you're attacked by a woman? Not all that far-fetched, and since the prevailing *wisdom* is to train real, then it benefits men, too. Of course, for us women, our attacker will most likely be male. We do ourselves a disservice by sparring sympathetic partners 100% of the time.

MJ - Must've been before I came on board.

I sparred only women at my first school, and it was a big mistake, which I kind of rectified by finding a woman larger than I am (not too difficult:)) and higher ranking to work with. It helped a great deal within that particular program, since sparring was segregated at that time. Since then, and at two other schools in two other styles, I've sparred against both men and women, and it makes quite a difference. Yes, there's the "I've never hit a woman before" thing for men -- but what if you're attacked by a woman? Not all that far-fetched, and since the prevailing *wisdom* is to train real, then it benefits men, too. Of course, for us women, our attacker will most likely be male. We do ourselves a disservice by sparring sympathetic partners 100% of the time.Yes before or during your time. The class met in the morning when you most likely had work.

I agree that you need to spar with both eventually. Sympathetic partners (male or female), really do each other a disservice. However it's not that easy to be an unsympathetic partner for me. It's much easier for me to hit them when they are hitting me - whoever they are.

Yes before or during your time. The class met in the morning when you most likely had work.

I agree that you need to spar with both eventually. Sympathetic partners (male or female), really do each other a disservice. However it's not that easy to be an unsympathetic partner for me. It's much easier for me to hit them when they are hitting me - whoever they are.

I know. I know!:boxing: :btg:

I know. I know!:boxing: :btg::rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I like that :) ...Jay do you find your daughter, having trained as a younger person, was perhaps less fearful of sparring? I wonder sometimes if children/girls who train at an early age are more accepting of it all, as opposed to women who begin training later in life. Thoughts anyone? Kids are fearless. They just step up to any challenge you present them. They just accept it as the way things are. Both my girls just dive into sparring without a second thought. There are no boy/girl issues, just training. As my youngest says "this is what I do, this is what I love, this is how I train." She can take any one of the boys in her school ;) I am glad she learned to spar that way. No fear, no issues, no problems, just training.

We didn't segregate for one and two step sparring (attack and counter--attack counter/counter). But for free sparring we did. Some of the girls in class were REALLY small. Full grown but literally under 5 feet and around 80-85 pounds. You had to be careful because during takedowns it felt like you were flinging around an empty uniform.

We don't segregate. The females seem to like it against the males. It gives them something to work harder for.

For now...

I think that segregation for adults, at a low rank, is a good thing. There is too much social conditioning and "sugar and spice and everything nice" that needs to be overcome.

For kids, jump right in and break the old sexist dogma.

In the future, hopefully, this will not be needed.

upnorthkyosa

I'd have to say absolutely not. As soon as you allow segregation, you set up a division and an unspoken acknowledgment that the women aren't good enough to spar men. That in itself is damaging enough to a woman maybe getting used to the idea that she can be as good as a man; "the female martial arts instructor is telling me women can't go with men".

For myself, I would be beyond insulted by the idea that I couldn't handle co-ed sparring. Not to mention that from a pure self-defence perspective, who exactly are these women going to be facing if (gods forbid) they find themselves in a SD situation? A 130lb female? Or the man built like the 250lb guy they met in sparring?

If you really feel the need to segregate, I'd suggest segregating by weight, belt level, experience, willingness to take hits, or what-have-you, but leave gender out of it. Keep an eye out for anyone (male or female) who seems afraid of hard-hitters and use your judgment. The fact that you've made this post suggests that you're already on the lookout for uncomfortable situations, which means you can use discretion instead of blanket solutions.

I don't mean to rant or preach or anything; I came through four years of cadet training that had too much gender-based assumptions like this and all it did was increase the division. It's a trigger-point for me.

A.) As soon as you allow segregation, you set up a division and an unspoken acknowledgment that the women aren't good enough to spar men.

B.) That in itself is damaging enough to a woman maybe getting used to the idea that she can be as good as a man; "the female martial arts instructor is telling me women can't go with men".

C.) I would be beyond insulted by the idea that I couldn't handle co-ed sparring.

D.) Not to mention that from a pure self-defence perspective, who exactly are these women going to be facing if (gods forbid) they find themselves in a SD situation? A 130lb female? Or the man built like the 250lb guy they met in sparring?

E.) If you really feel the need to segregate, I'd suggest segregating by weight, belt level, experience, willingness to take hits, or what-have-you, but leave gender out of it. Keep an eye out for anyone (male or female) who seems afraid of hard-hitters and use your judgment. The fact that you've made this post suggests that you're already on the lookout for uncomfortable situations, which means you can use discretion instead of blanket solutions.

F.) I don't mean to rant or preach or anything; I came through four years of cadet training that had too much gender-based assumptions like this and all it did was increase the division. It's a trigger-point for me.
A.) A good point. But I wonder is it for the sake of injury/insurance?

B.) Don't completely understand. How can she be as good as a man in what aspect(s)?

C.) Sometimes, the thought of having segregation of anything, makes its members feel more as part of a specialized group.

D.) Exactly. Our female students spar and practice SD against males. Only one, out of many, may come along and not desire to particpate against males.

E.) Well if you do it by wieght, you contradict your "D". Belt-level/expereince will be good, it may lesson injuries in accordance with experience. However, a higher rank against a lower will do the same, given the higher has more expereince and control.

Willingness to take hits-afraid of hard hitters. This may be one good reason behind segregation. Perhaps someone is using it to mask their fear. There are some that are uneasy about sparring.

F.) Well, segregation per living quarters/restroons/showers, hygeine, I can understand. But if women are capable of the same drills/routines/tasks, as men, let them do it.

A.) A good point. But I wonder is it for the sake of injury/insurance?

B.) Don't completely understand. How can she be as good as a man in what aspect(s)?

C.) Sometimes, the thought of having segregation of anything, makes its members feel more as part of a specialized group.

D.) Exactly. Our female students spar and practice SD against males. Only one, out of many, may come along and not desire to particpate against males.

E.) Well if you do it by wieght, you contradict your "D". Belt-level/expereince will be good, it may lesson injuries in accordance with experience. However, a higher rank against a lower will do the same, given the higher has more expereince and control.

Willingness to take hits-afraid of hard hitters. This may be one good reason behind segregation. Perhaps someone is using it to mask their fear. There are some that are uneasy about sparring.

F.) Well, segregation per living quarters/restroons/showers, hygeine, I can understand. But if women are capable of the same drills/routines/tasks, as men, let them do it.
Following your breakdown... =P

A) I've no idea on the insurance level, but as for injuries...shouldn't that be a concern regardless of gender? I've heard stories from women and men about people who won't hold back and injure their opponents. While the average size difference between men and women might exacerbate that, seems to me it's something that needs to be watched all around.

B) That's really my sketchiest point, I'll admit. I just know a woman who's spent her life believing women to be naturally inferior, and she's only just getting over it. That kind arbitrary separation might be damaging to the build-up of such a woman's confidence (though I'll admit getting pounded would be worse).

C) Would you mind clarifying this one? I'm not entirely sure what you mean here.

D) Guess I don't need to say much, here. =P

E) Yeah, here I was mostly just throwing out alternatives if there's a concern about confidence/safety. I'm really not sure how an instructor might deal with these problems; I'm only speaking from my own experience when I say segregation just isn't necessary in most cases.

F) Yeah. I think I knee-jerked on this one because of cadets. I mean, for the most part it was great, and I'll agree that the living arrangements etc. were reasonable. It was just the undertone of...gentler treatment that got on my nerves. Females got favoured, babied, not taken to task as strongly. And it was stupid.

Thanks for your reply, at any rate. ::cheerful:: Now I must needs flee--to my sparring class, as a matter of fact. Take care,

Goshawk.

I don't think is a good idea to segregate the students. In the kajukenbo classes often I am the only women so I don't have a choice. In all my years I have encounter students that hit me very hard and some that were very shy. But it don't matter if they hit me hard or soft when I perform my defense technique or sparr so they will remember me.
On the other hand in the Hapkido classes my instructor segregates the womens from the mens when practicing and even some exercises he even tell us to go and drink water. I really don't know what is the strategy that he wants to achieve, maybe is to maintain more female students.

But let me tell you in the street will be no segregation a rapist will hit you with no consideration!

I voted yes for initial segretation, but I wouldn't want it to be a hard and fast rule. More a general rule of thumb until trust and confidence is built up. It can be embarassing for a student to admit that they feel out of their depth initially, less so to request harder training. I wouldn't think segregation is neccessary if the beginner's sparring partner is a senior student with good control and judgement.

Once some basic skills and confidence are established then I would see segreation as a disservice.

Of course if someone objects to segregation at any point they should be allowed to do as they please, within reason.I think it is useful where possible to pair beginners (male or female) up against senior students or instructors initially as there are less control issues, it helps build confidence and break the ice when joining a club, and their control ability and attitude can be monitored.

No hard and fast view, but I do think initial segregation can be a useful way to ease people into training gently if they have confidence issues.

Respectfully,

Dan

Oh I wouldn't be all up to the idea of being segregated. Ever since I have begun my training, I've always worked with the guys. Even the guys my age. And they don't do anything wrong, all the guys I've worked with have treated me so kindly, and don't think anything of me "being weak" and their only sole purpose was to teach me and make me better. I REALLY respect that, instead of guys saying girls are too weak, so being with the guys at my studio has been a postive impact.