Got GUILT?

[Jenna]

You are walking to the station with your partner after a lovely evening out.. All of a sudden you are accosted in the street.. this guy decides you both offer some easy pickings.. and at the end of a nasty looking knife requests you and your partner give him your valuables. His eyes are glazed. He is clearly NOT in absolute control of himself and intuitively you do not believe valuables are what he is looking to gain. You are thus prepared. Fortunately! Because manically he lunges with the knife at your partner. You are faster and put him down hard and swiftly before he realises what has happened. Your partner is wounded but ok. Your attacker though is out cold. It is only then you see the oozing darkness of his blood against the grey pavement and realise what has happened.

Weeks later, the police are happy and pursue no charges. Your partner got a few stitches for a flesh wound but it is apparent you have saved them from potentially much much worse. But your attacker well.. dead on the spot from cerebral haemhorraging. Though he was on heroin and weakened considerably by it.. it was haemhorraging incurred from the injury sustained from YOU while you defended yourself and your partner that was cause of his death..

Q: Is guilt over an emotion you would feel at this point?

OK all my MT lovelies.. so this is a Y/N answer.. but I would be truly appreciative if you would pander to me a little and give a reasoning to support a Y/N reply if at all possible.. thank you very much :)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[Shirt Ripper]

Q: Is guilt over an emotion you would feel at this point?
Nope. Leave me alone.

[tshadowchaser]

yes I might feel guilt over the taking of a life that i did not intend to take providing I had only meant to put him to the ground and hold him there till authorities arrived
On the other hand NO if the attacker was in my opinion trying to kill me or my partner then I would have to question did i truly just mean to put him to the ground and hold him or was I going to pound the hell out of him if I had not seen the blood still I might questionif I had wanted to kill him or just send him to the hospital

[BrandiJo]

nope, i did what i had to do it was a bad thing that happend but i did what i needed inorder to protect those i care about

[Ping898]

Yes,

I took a life, for right or for wrong, IMHO that can't occur without leaving some mark on you. And I would feel guilt about the life that had been lost and watsed in the process.

[Swordlady]

Yes, I would feel guilty. I may had done what was necessary to protect myself and my companion, but I also have a strong aversion to physically harming another. Taking a human life would be the ultimate last resort. No way I could come out of that experience without having it affect me emotionally and psychologically.

[MRE]

I would feel guilty if I killed but didn't need to. If I thought the force I used was the only way I could stop the attacker from harming my wife or children, I don't think I would feel guilty. I say I don't think because I have never been in the situation. I hope to never be able to respond to your post with a definite answer.

[Martial Tucker]

Sadness over what happened, yes....


Guilt, no. Guilt implies that what happened was my fault and/or I did something out-of-line to deliberately cause the undesired outcome. That's not the case in the scenario that you described.

Actually, I would focus on the fact that you probably SAVED at least one, and possibly two innocent lives, given the description of what happened.

[green meanie]

Q: Is guilt over an emotion you would feel at this point?

No. I wouldn't feel guilty. :asian:

[Shaolinwind]

You are walking to the station with your partner after a lovely evening out.. All of a sudden you are accosted in the street.. this guy decides you both offer some easy pickings.. and at the end of a nasty looking knife requests you and your partner give him your valuables. His eyes are glazed. He is clearly NOT in absolute control of himself and intuitively you do not believe valuables are what he is looking to gain. You are thus prepared. Fortunately! Because manically he lunges with the knife at your partner. You are faster and put him down hard and swiftly before he realises what has happened. Your partner is wounded but ok. Your attacker though is out cold. It is only then you see the oozing darkness of his blood against the grey pavement and realise what has happened.

Weeks later, the police are happy and pursue no charges. Your partner got a few stitches for a flesh wound but it is apparent you have saved them from potentially much much worse. But your attacker well.. dead on the spot from cerebral haemhorraging. Though he was on heroin and weakened considerably by it.. it was haemhorraging incurred from the injury sustained from YOU while you defended yourself and your partner that was cause of his death..

Q: Is guilt over an emotion you would feel at this point?

OK all my MT lovelies.. so this is a Y/N answer.. but I would be truly appreciative if you would pander to me a little and give a reasoning to support a Y/N reply if at all possible.. thank you very much :)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

First thought, NO. Dude came at me with a knife.

I am inclined to say "it was him or me" and that's sound logical. But I don't think that a person who hasn't been in the situation can truly answer that. What about when you start wondering if you could have just broken his knee, or when you start seeing the bloodied victim in your dreams? Even Police, who are trained for such situations still often end up needing counseling after plugging some punk waving a gun around.

[Fluffy]

Yes, I feel guilty. I'm human, I don't know what happened to this person before I was forced to do what I had to do - what kind of demons have control of this person?

Now would I do it again? Yup, I'll do what I have to do to survive and protect my own. I'll deal with the emotions later.

[Adept]

Q: Is guilt over an emotion you would feel at this point?

Only guilty that I didn't act sooner, and prevent my partner from being harmed.

I couldn't give a rats pyjamas about killing some would-be murdering junkie. I take what some people consider to be a terrible view on life, but others simply think it's honest.

I know I could be spending my holidays building schools in rural India. I know I could sell one of my cars and buy polio vaccines for children in Africa. I know I could spend my wages on food and medical aid for people displaced by natural disasters. But I'd prefer to spend my money on DVDs, junk food, mobile phones, music, and even food for my dog. As terrible as it was to have so many people die in the Boxing Day Tsunami, I was more upset when my Kribensis died last week.

I'm outrageously selfish, in the scheme of things. People are starving to death, and living in shacks made from tin and cardboard, while I spend my money on CD's and softdrink. And I'm happy with that.

If I'm happy to let people die when I could simply go without cigarettes for a week and save them, why should I feel guilty over killing someone who actively tried to murder someone close to me?

[Brandon Fisher]

Yes I would feel some sorrow but not guilt. The fact it was not intentional and I had no choice I would not feel guilty I would feel regret and sorrow that someone lost their life.

[Explorer]

It would seem natural to feel some guilt or sorrow over unintentinally taking a life. But in the long run no as my intent was only to stop harm from coming to another innocent life. In this scenario the perpetrator is not innocent while my friend is.

[Shaolinwind]

Yes I would feel some sorrow but not guilt. The fact it was not intentional and I had no choice I would not feel guilty I would feel regret and sorrow that someone lost their life.

I'm hip to that.

[evenflow1121]

Absolutely, I killed someone, I now have to live with that for the rest of my life. Though I may gain comfort in knowing that had I not reacted my friend may have been seriously hurt or God forbid dead, my intentions were to stop the assailant from hurting my friend or myself, but I some how went further and now the assailant is dead, it has to be very hard to deal with that.

[Hand Sword]

Honestly.....No I wouldn't. I would be more afraid (at the time) of the legal charges.

[Shaolinwind]

I couldn't give a rats pyjamas about killing some would-be murdering junkie.

I believe you. And you are saying, particularly in the rest of your post, something a lot of people only think. I believe you are honest and your way of thinking is certainly not inherantly evil. I don't think you're an evil person, just very realistic.

In which case, beaing a realist, I believe there might be some small thing that tugs at your heart strings over taking a human life, albeit the life of a piece of human trash. Would you say "too f'ing bad" to his crying mother? Doubtful.

[Ceicei]

Considering he came at us with a knife, hopped up on drugs, with intent to kill, then I will not regret my defense in stopping him, even if it ended up with his death.

(Having experienced two attacks in the past, I get flashbacks from these--though thankfully, not as often any more). I know with the scenario you present, I will have to deal with flashbacks for a long time. It is a reflection of the intense emotions present through and after the encounter. I will feel sorry that he died (not necessarily from guilt, because guilt implies that I did something wrong). I did what I could to prevent further harm toward my friend and myself, and for that I will not be sorry. Neverthless, I will be re-playing the memory over and over in my mind, second-guessing myself if I could have handled the situation differently--it is human nature to want to seek reconcilation with the mind, values, and experience. With time, that too, will decrease in frequency.

- Ceicei

[Adept]

Would you say "too f'ing bad" to his crying mother? Doubtful.

You're right, I wouldn't. And I'd certainly feel bad about that, but I consider them seperate, if linked, issues. On the one hand, no remorse for taking that persons life. On the other hand, remorse for causing an innocent person grief.

[Brandon Fisher]

I get flashbacks sometimes from 3 ordeals I walked away from luckily. I can't say that for 2 of them the other I was very lucky to put it mildly.

[Cirdan]

The situation described certainly justifies the use of force, even extreme, so logically I shouldn`t feel any guilt. However never having killed anybody I really can`t tell what effect such an experience would have on me. I might feel sadness, anger, despair, or even joy at having survived. I think that unless you are a psycopath it is human nature to be deeply affected by this.

[MA-Caver]

Twice in my life I could've taken the life of another... but with-held both times because it was in my power to do so (moment of choice). I don't recall feeling guilty because of what could've been.
Another time I dealt a devastating blow to one's wind-pipe and walked away... didn't feel bad about that either... don't even know the outcome but speculate that he survived.

In short... the answer is No under those circumstances.
Doped up maniac that probably isn't fully aware of what they're doing isn't high on my sympathetic list. From the description of the scenario no amount of reasoning would've worked at all... thus he would've been an danger to society all-around even if we got clean away without any harm to the "three of us".



Would you say "too f'ing bad" to his crying mother? Doubtful.
I doubt that I would even meet his mother. But even if I did... it would depend upon how the mother's attitude towards me would be. Some mothers know that their "babies" have gone bad and regret it. Others entrench themselves in denial and get angry at the rest of the world and the one who killed them... instead of accepting the fact that she might've not been that good of a momma like she thought she was.
Either way... I would say "I'm sorry that it had to happen that way." But I wouldn't say "I'm sorry I killed your boy." That implies guilt... which I would not have... under those circumstances.

[pstarr]

No, none at all. His demise is the result of his own actions. Unfortunate, yes. Guilt, nope.

[Jonathan Randall]

I believe you. And you are saying, particularly in the rest of your post, something a lot of people only think. I believe you are honest and your way of thinking is certainly not inherantly evil. I don't think you're an evil person, just very realistic.

In which case, beaing a realist, I believe there might be some small thing that tugs at your heart strings over taking a human life, albeit the life of a piece of human trash. Would you say "too f'ing bad" to his crying mother? Doubtful.

Shaolinwind, you're the man. :asian:

Great reminder to us all that, even when forced to it, actions have consequences and the person of character doesn't speak casually of "killin'".

[Kensai]

Shaolinwind, you're the man. :asian:

Great reminder to us all that, even when forced to it, actions have consequences and the person of character doesn't speak casually of "killin'".

Agreed. Regret that it happened at all, yes. Guilt for having defended myself, and more importantly, loved one? No.

Actually, I'm talking crap. I served in the 2nd Gulf, and had a mate of mine killed. It was a blue on blue kill, and the weapons used to kill him where weapons that I had prepped and loaded onto the helos going ashore. Although I didn't pull that particular trigger, I was part of the cycle that led to his death. That has occured to me, and has kept me awake on more nights that I can remember. For those that don't think they'd experience any emotions, guilt or otherwise, you couldn't be human and not have them, regardless of how cold, hard, emotionless you think you are. You may not experience guilt as others may recognise it, but I promise you, there would be something in your mind, days, weeks, months or even years after it happened it would catch up with you...

[Andy Moynihan]

Sorrow that this person forced me to the act, yes. But that's all.

Mercy to the wolf is cruelty to the sheep. *shrug*

[MartialIntent]

Honestly.....No I wouldn't. I would be more afraid (at the time) of the legal charges.
HS, having never been in this situation I *think* I'd agree. Lemme ask though does this imply - for everyone who claims they'd feel no guilt - that they're heartless and cold, period?

What I mean is, imagine you killed someone in an auto accident, would you feel guilty about that? I'd guess probably yes, therefore how can this sense of guilt be so easily switched off for the scenario outlined in Jenna's original post?

Respects!

[MJS]

You are walking to the station with your partner after a lovely evening out.. All of a sudden you are accosted in the street.. this guy decides you both offer some easy pickings.. and at the end of a nasty looking knife requests you and your partner give him your valuables. His eyes are glazed. He is clearly NOT in absolute control of himself and intuitively you do not believe valuables are what he is looking to gain. You are thus prepared. Fortunately! Because manically he lunges with the knife at your partner. You are faster and put him down hard and swiftly before he realises what has happened. Your partner is wounded but ok. Your attacker though is out cold. It is only then you see the oozing darkness of his blood against the grey pavement and realise what has happened.

Weeks later, the police are happy and pursue no charges. Your partner got a few stitches for a flesh wound but it is apparent you have saved them from potentially much much worse. But your attacker well.. dead on the spot from cerebral haemhorraging. Though he was on heroin and weakened considerably by it.. it was haemhorraging incurred from the injury sustained from YOU while you defended yourself and your partner that was cause of his death..

Q: Is guilt over an emotion you would feel at this point?

OK all my MT lovelies.. so this is a Y/N answer.. but I would be truly appreciative if you would pander to me a little and give a reasoning to support a Y/N reply if at all possible.. thank you very much :)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Another great thought provoking discussion Jenna!:ultracool

It seems that there was no chance to talk him down or leave the area due to the fact that this is all unfolding very quick. That being said, you're faced with deadly force, so in turn we have to adjust our use of force accordingly. Would I feel guilty at that moment? No. Would I feel any remorse later on? Most likely, once things were over.

I'm sure after the fact, there will be those questions. "Was there something I could've done differently?" "Could've I been more cautious with my defense, making sure he was subdued but didn't get fatally injured in the process?" The list can go on and on.

Mike

[MJS]

HS, having never been in this situation I *think* I'd agree. Lemme ask though does this imply - for everyone who claims they'd feel no guilt - that they're heartless and cold, period?

I'd say no, unless we completely have no regard for human life, regardless of the situation. If someone pushes us, I don't feel that we should take the persons life.



What I mean is, imagine you killed someone in an auto accident, would you feel guilty about that? I'd guess probably yes, therefore how can this sense of guilt be so easily switched off for the scenario outlined in Jenna's original post?

Respects!

If I was drunk, if I was driving like a complete fool, again, after the fact, things would most likely 'sink in' and reality would have to be faced as to what happened. If I'm minding my own business, driving normally, and someone on the opposite side of the street who's driving crazy causes the accident, sure I'd be sad that they died, but I would not let myself take the blame due to the fact that I was not the cause of it.

I'm watching the news right now. There was a guy on a motorcycle who got killed because he passed a car and collided with an oncoming car in the other lane. I wasn't there so I don't know if the oncoming car swerved, etc. but regardless, that person did not tell the motorcycle driver to pass that car. It was his own reckless driving that caused that.

Mike

[painstain]

if he had children, yes regardless of the attack on me, knowing drugs can sway the mind. if he has no kids, yes because he may have had an oppertunity tomarrow to straighten his life up but won't get it now.
also yes because people make mistakes and they aren't worth dying for.
also i would be angry at the individual for putting me in such a possition.

with respect,
painstain

[Jenna]

Sadness over what happened, yes....


Guilt, no. Guilt implies that what happened was my fault and/or I did something out-of-line to deliberately cause the undesired outcome. That's not the case in the scenario that you described.

Actually, I would focus on the fact that you probably SAVED at least one, and possibly two innocent lives, given the description of what happened.
Hey MT :) you say no guilt.. and yes to attribute blame and fault is a chicken and egg situation.. yes the attacker initiated where you had no mind to fight but still you DID respond in kind though it was out of necessity.. however the fact that you responded is THE only relevant fact because that ultimately put him in the ground.. he STARTED it certainly and unprovoked but you finished it purposefully or not.. so my question to you is that although by all contemporary parameters for who deserves what.. he definitely deserved it.. but still are you steadfast that you would feel no guilt at all?

thank you my helpful friend :)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[CuongNhuka]

violence comes with guilt in all but the most de-humanized

[Jenna]

Absolutely, I killed someone, I now have to live with that for the rest of my life. Though I may gain comfort in knowing that had I not reacted my friend may have been seriously hurt or God forbid dead, my intentions were to stop the assailant from hurting my friend or myself, but I some how went further and now the assailant is dead, it has to be very hard to deal with that.
wow.. I am amazed truly that you have been taken right to the terminal end of this line my friend and thank you for sharing this.. and can I ask please if it is not tactless of me.. would you be inclined to ask for forgiveness for a death that occurred at your hands or do you not believe forgiveness is required in such a situation as this where you were simply responding to a mortal threat on yourself or others you care for..

Thank you :)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[Jenna]

No. I wouldn't feel guilty. :asian:

NO part of you feels guilty bout this? Does that mean in this situation you are remorseless? And if so is there any part of your conscience that would say to you that you SHOULD feel pangs of guilt..

Sorry.. what I mean is are your feelings of guilt suppressed or do they just never actually occur at all.. sorry if I am mixed up in my questions maybe this makes a little sense..

Thank you my friend :)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[JBrainard]

Yes, I would feel guilty. I may had done what was necessary to protect myself and my companion, but I also have a strong aversion to physically harming another. Taking a human life would be the ultimate last resort. No way I could come out of that experience without having it affect me emotionally and psychologically.

My response as well.

[Grenadier]

NO part of you feels guilty bout this? Does that mean in this situation you are remorseless? And if so is there any part of your conscience that would say to you that you SHOULD feel pangs of guilt..

I think that there's a difference between the regret of having to take another life in a justified manner, versus feeling guilty about having done something wrong.

It's not wrong to take someone's life if the situation justifies it. After all, some attackers will keep coming after you until they are put down, and in those cases, you have to put them down, or else they'll kill you, and possibly your associates. In those cases, the person who legitimately defended himself should get over it, and accept the fact that he saved innocent lives.

Someone can try to argue "But he (the criminal) was on drugs! He wasn't himself!" but the fact still remains, that the offender had a chance to not use drugs, or to get help in the first place. If anything, the perpetrator had the greater responsibility to behave in a non-criminal manner, and failed.

[Rich Parsons]

You are walking to the station with your partner after a lovely evening out.. All of a sudden you are accosted in the street.. this guy decides you both offer some easy pickings.. and at the end of a nasty looking knife requests you and your partner give him your valuables. His eyes are glazed. He is clearly NOT in absolute control of himself and intuitively you do not believe valuables are what he is looking to gain. You are thus prepared. Fortunately! Because manically he lunges with the knife at your partner. You are faster and put him down hard and swiftly before he realises what has happened. Your partner is wounded but ok. Your attacker though is out cold. It is only then you see the oozing darkness of his blood against the grey pavement and realise what has happened.

Weeks later, the police are happy and pursue no charges. Your partner got a few stitches for a flesh wound but it is apparent you have saved them from potentially much much worse. But your attacker well.. dead on the spot from cerebral haemhorraging. Though he was on heroin and weakened considerably by it.. it was haemhorraging incurred from the injury sustained from YOU while you defended yourself and your partner that was cause of his death..

Q: Is guilt over an emotion you would feel at this point?

OK all my MT lovelies.. so this is a Y/N answer.. but I would be truly appreciative if you would pander to me a little and give a reasoning to support a Y/N reply if at all possible.. thank you very much :)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


I would have to say yes, I would feel guilt.

As stated below:

Absolutely, I killed someone, I now have to live with that for the rest of my life. Though I may gain comfort in knowing that had I not reacted my friend may have been seriously hurt or God forbid dead, my intentions were to stop the assailant from hurting my friend or myself, but I some how went further and now the assailant is dead, it has to be very hard to deal with that.

I have put in the past many in the hospital. One such, was dropped on the ground and he was not breathing. When I turned and looked and my mind was faster then my conscious mind, and I knew he was not alive or soon to be dead, I wanted to vomit. A second before when I turned I was ready to smash his head into the pavement. Those emotions happened instantly, I was upset and guilty I had taken a life.

I did not vomit. I looked at his body and tried to keep his spine as straight as possible and move it so his throat was not as constricted. He still did nto breath. I took a pen from my pocket (* People laugh for still today 20 years later I carry a pen with me. *) and pried his mouth open and saw that his tongue was in the back of his throat. I used the pen while holding his jaw to move his tongue. He began to breath instantly. This all happened real fast for I had yelled for someone to call an ambulance before I started. And his friends were yelling and running at me telling me that I had done enough and to leave him alone. By the time they covered the distance he was breathing.

I told them to leave him alone and not to move him. They picked him up and his head rolled. I was so afraid he had broken his neck as well. A few minutes and he is almost conscious and aware and the ambulance is there getting him ready for the trip the hospital. They were upset he had been moved. I explained I did not move him other then discribed above. The police and EMT's stated I had saved his life.

I would have spent the night in jail if not for a couple of things. The major being that customers heard me saying I did not want to fight and that he should just leave. (* I worked there. *) I also pressed charges for assault as he started it. So it was a mutual combative situation. Mutual in that he started it and I defended myself and ended it. The guy in going to hospital was already pressing charges for of course the police talked to him first. :(

A few weeks later after he was out of the hospital and also feeling better, the guy I put out and into the hospital stopped by. He apologized and thanked me for saving his life from swallowing his tongue. So I got lucky in this case.

[evenflow1121]

wow.. I am amazed truly that you have been taken right to the terminal end of this line my friend and thank you for sharing this.. and can I ask please if it is not tactless of me.. would you be inclined to ask for forgiveness for a death that occurred at your hands or do you not believe forgiveness is required in such a situation as this where you were simply responding to a mortal threat on yourself or others you care for..

Thank you :)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Good question, I think you should ask for forgiveness at least I would. I dont know why someone would want to hurt me or a person I am with, but I guess that in itself is the million and one dollar question for any victim out there. Sure some people deserve a good lashing every now and then, but the point is we are all human beings, we all screw up. I mean if someone was to come at me with a knife or a gun or what not and I was able to defend myself, I could eventually forgive that person, I would not want to live my life hating anyone. If I were to kill someone well I guess in my opinion I have not given this person a chance to perhaps better himself or herself one day, moreover, I have probably gone further than I had to, which should be to incapacitate or render the assailant defenseless so no one gets hurt. If I kill the guy, I would ask for forgiveness.

[tradrockrat]

Guilt - No

Sad - Yes

Sleep - Like a baby

This situation - and others like it - are all things I prepared for long ago. The death would most certainly affect me and change me, but not out of guilt.

[kodo]

I'm sure that I would feel guilty. However, Paul in the Bible said that we may fight for rightiousness sake.

[MA-Caver]

Shaolinwind, you're the man. :asian:

Great reminder to us all that, even when forced to it, actions have consequences and the person of character doesn't speak casually of "killin'".
At the risk of sounding defensive... I don't speak casually of killin' either but under those circumstances and from Jenna's description:
Your attacker though, is out cold. It is only then you see the oozing darkness of his blood against the grey pavement and realise what has happened. It was regretable that the attacker died from his wounds (which might've been sustained from hitting his head on the sidewalk/concrete... autopsy will say for sure). Either way I caused him to fall to the ground and thus his head hit the ground... bla bla bla.
Regrets but not guilt.

From Dictionary.com
re·grets
v. tr.
1. To feel sorry, disappointed, or distressed about.
2. To remember with a feeling of loss or sorrow; mourn.

guilt
n.
1. The fact of being responsible for the commission of an offense. See Synonyms at blame.
2. Law. Culpability for a crime or lesser breach of regulations that carries a legal penalty.

[elder999]

Q: Is guilt over an emotion you would feel at this point?



Based on experience, I'd probably feel somewhat guilty. If the cops showed up at breakfast to tell me about it, I'd probably be guilty right up until my second beer with lunch...then I'd forget about it-it's in the category of "stuff happens," or karma-people who accost people with knives are risking getting deaded.

[green meanie]

NO part of you feels guilty bout this? Does that mean in this situation you are remorseless? And if so is there any part of your conscience that would say to you that you SHOULD feel pangs of guilt..

Sorry.. what I mean is are your feelings of guilt suppressed or do they just never actually occur at all.. sorry if I am mixed up in my questions maybe this makes a little sense..

Thank you my friend :)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

It wouldn't occur at all. I wouldn't feel guilty over this. I would only be concerned with the legal ramifications of what I had done. So long as there were no charges brought against me and I was considered legally within my rights I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[green meanie]

violence comes with guilt in all but the most de-humanized

Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe there's just something wrong with me for not feeling guilty over this. I'm open to that possibilty. But maybe, just maybe, you might be painting with a rather broad brush when you make a statement like that. No offense. :asian:

[DeLamar.J]

If someone is making a threat on my life with a weapon, they deserve to die. I am a very compassionate person until certain lines are crossed, then I turn sadistic. I would feel absolute pleasure in taking that scumbags life. By killing people like that you are saving the life of another innocent person. And his next victim may not be capable of defending themselves, so you must save the next victim by making sure he does not get the chance again.
Even though the man was on drugs, he still chose to take the drugs, and once you take that path you are a time bomb. There is a reason certain drugs are illegal, and everyone know even legal drugs can be abused.

[Xue Sheng]

In my opinion it is not a yes/no answer. I have never taken a life and I hope I never do so saying yes or no is baseless.

But based on the scenario you put forth it appears that the choice was him or my partner. If it is him I am going to feel much better than if it was my partner.

Will I feel guilty over taking a life, I do not know nor do I want to find out.

[Shaolinwind]

Someone can try to argue "But he (the criminal) was on drugs! He wasn't himself!"

Slight subject change but I believe when on drugs/alcohol you are even MORE yourself. "Within drink lies truth."

[Don Roley]

There is a book called "On Killing" by a guy named Grossman. I know Sheshulsa has read it. I reccomend it to all martial artists and I think everyone in this thread should try to read it.

Grossman gives quite a few cases and studies of people who clearly were forced into killing or dying who felt guit for decades after the events.

I contend that no one really knows what it is like to feel after killing someone unless they have been there. From what Grossman writes, people do not react logically to the act of killing. If someone tries to kill you and you have to kill them instead it is logical that you should not feel guilt. And yet so many people have.

In short, I do not see how anyone can say with certainty that they would not feel guilt if they have not been through that experience.

[green meanie]

I do not see how anyone can say with certainty that they would not feel guilt if they have not been through that experience.

Agreed. :asian:

[Jenna]

Slight subject change but I believe when on drugs/alcohol you are even MORE yourself. "Within drink lies truth."
in vino veritas perhaps my friend and yes there is also this truth or should I say tendency towards uninhibited with todays fashionable recreational substances.. as for the major Class A?? I do not know myself..

But yes I guess we should "trust" the intentions of someone drunk or hopped up perhaps as being faithful to how they are acting.. tho while their intentions are transparent their actual methods would tend not to be and would be largely unpredictable..

Thank you for this :)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[Jenna]

I contend that no one really knows what it is like to feel after killing someone unless they have been there. From what Grossman writes, people do not react logically to the act of killing. If someone tries to kill you and you have to kill them instead it is logical that you should not feel guilt. And yet so many people have.
This is true certainly Roley-san.. though for most of us.. hypotheticals are closest we will come.. and giving our ENVISAGED reaction by anecdote analogy and metaphor I believe can be great aids to understanding.. If I had sought the opinions of hardened criminals I am confident I would know exactly where to look and but that is not the purpose of my asking.. this is simply one question dressed as another.. but thank you sincerely for providing input and a reading recommendation I am grateful :)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[Martial Tucker]

Hey MT :) you say no guilt.. and yes to attribute blame and fault is a chicken and egg situation.. yes the attacker initiated where you had no mind to fight but still you DID respond in kind though it was out of necessity.. however the fact that you responded is THE only relevant fact because that ultimately put him in the ground.. he STARTED it certainly and unprovoked but you finished it purposefully or not.. so my question to you is that although by all contemporary parameters for who deserves what.. he definitely deserved it.. but still are you steadfast that you would feel no guilt at all?

thank you my helpful friend :)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Jenna, if I really think about it.......the only answer is: "I don't know".
It's easy to say how you THINK you would react to a certain scenario,
but unless you've actually experienced that scenario, you'll never really know. Thankfully, I've never had to kill anyone, so I don't REALLY know
how I would react. I do know that it would bother and sadden me for awhile that I killed someone, even in self defense. But, given my personality
which is on the logical/analytical side, I'm fairly sure that after the initial shock wore off, I would rationalize it as a "him or me" decision of survival that was forced upon me by someone clearly trying to kill me. I suppose it would always be in the back of my mind that I had killed another human being, but I don't THINK I would feel guilt (read: feel like I had done something wrong, or immoral).

When I was in my 20's, I was a bouncer at a pretty rough bar. We had several fights it seemed, every weekend. While I always tried to be a peacemaker, there were a few situations where I had to injure someone pretty badly, to the point of their requiring hospitalization, to regain control
of a situation. Regardless of the fact that those people "asked for" and deserved what they got, I always felt bad afterwards about hurting another human being. But I never felt "guilty", as if I had done anything to violate my personal moral code.

That's about as close to your question as I can get. I would be interested to hear from any LEO's or ex-military people on this forum who HAVE had to kill someone in the line of duty to get their perspective on "guilt vs. survival"


MT

[DeLamar.J]

I think that there's a difference between the regret of having to take another life in a justified manner, versus feeling guilty about having done something wrong.

It's not wrong to take someone's life if the situation justifies it. After all, some attackers will keep coming after you until they are put down, and in those cases, you have to put them down, or else they'll kill you, and possibly your associates. In those cases, the person who legitimately defended himself should get over it, and accept the fact that he saved innocent lives.

Someone can try to argue "But he (the criminal) was on drugs! He wasn't himself!" but the fact still remains, that the offender had a chance to not use drugs, or to get help in the first place. If anything, the perpetrator had the greater responsibility to behave in a non-criminal manner, and failed.
I agree. I also feel that it is our responsibility to take these types of people out for good to prevent other innocent's from being harmed in the future. This goes much deeper than just the guilt you will feel.
How would you FEEL, when this man robbed, raped, and killed someone the next day, when you could have prevented it by relieving him of his wretched existence the day before. It is our duty as martial artists to protect the innocent.
Hypothetical situation here..... The criminal pulls out his weapon and is trying to rob you, as you are taking care of the situation this is what need's to be on your mind.... (It is unfortunate that I have to resort to taking life, but I will be saving others who do not have the same training as me, the world will be a safer place after I have done what need's to be done, thank you sir, for allowing me a chance to make the world a better place, by saving your future vicitms from you) Also, when your relaxed you will perform much better. When you start thinking about the big picture instead of just your own life, your martial arts will be more effective. When your fighting, don't think about saving yourself, think about all of the innocent people you are helping.
If someone attacks your child, all sense of self is removed and you will react like a true warrior.

[elder999]

.



I contend that no one really knows what it is like to feel after killing someone unless they have been there. From what Grossman writes, people do not react logically to the act of killing. If someone tries to kill you and you have to kill them instead it is logical that you should not feel guilt. And yet so many people have.

First Don, I'd direct you, and everyone else to this post (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=517555&postcount=77)

Your recommendation of Col. Grossman's book is to be commended itself, Don. It's interesting to me how much controversy this book has caused in certain communities, and how people can embrace one section and have complete contempt-not just disagreement-with others. People variously disagree with what he has to say about military firing/killing and video games, but just love the whole "Wolf and Sheepdogs" thing.

Interestingly though, the same section of the book you are referring to does make mention to a percentage of the population that won't feel "guilt" (or whatever we're going to call it) over having taken life. I'll admit, I've never felt any particular rush over killing livestock, or even from hunting, and I was raised to have a certain reverence for life, especially under circumstances like slaughtering and hunting,but the one thing I regret most about that day in the subway is finding that out about myself-that I would feel little in the way of guilt or regret from circumstances like those. I'd have been better off without that knowledge, I think-I didn't need to know, and I certainly wouldn't have chosen to know-that kid took that choice, and my ignorance, away from me, though, when he chose to cut me.

While what you say about the logic of the situation-that people have a hard time rationally accepting that what happened was necessary, or not their fault, I didn't have that issue at all, for the most part. Oddly, though, to this day I still go through the "what ifs" of trying to prevent my first wife's drowning, and, while I objectively realize it wasn't my fault, and there was nothing I could have done to prevent it-short of staying home, of course-I still feel guilty.

People are such odd creatures....

And sorry, Jenna, your question deserved a much more measured response from me, but I was having one of those days at work where I just want to kill someone, and didn't really have time to answer more completely. While I was being glib, I was also being truthful-I wouldn't feel much guilt at all-though, getting back ot the original hypothetical situation of the question, it isn't likely that it would happen at all to us, these days.

[fireman00]

I would feel very bad about taking another person's life; perhaps with some assistance they may have been able to turn their life around.

However; selfpreservation and the safety/ health of some that I would consider friend, family or even an innocent passer-by would take presidence over taking the life of an attacker.

So no guilt. :)

[Dark]

Weeks later, the police are happy and pursue no charges. Your partner got a few stitches for a flesh wound but it is apparent you have saved them from potentially much much worse. But your attacker well.. dead on the spot from cerebral haemhorraging. Though he was on heroin and weakened considerably by it.. it was haemhorraging incurred from the injury sustained from YOU while you defended yourself and your partner that was cause of his death..

Q: Is guilt over an emotion you would feel at this point?

Well that kinds a complicated question, I'd like to say no because I was defending myself but then again I'm ot the hardest person ir most "thick skinned" guy in the world. Me and my one of my old sensei was discussing my lack of heartlessness in a fight when we where shooting pool last night.

The sad reality is I've never reached that numb point where I could hurt others and walk away un-effected. So yes I would regret it but then again I have allot of regrets I can say I wouldn't let regret stop my from getting on with my life...

[kenpo0324]

Yes, I would feel guilty. I may had done what was necessary to protect myself and my companion, but I also have a strong aversion to physically harming another. Taking a human life would be the ultimate last resort. No way I could come out of that experience without having it affect me emotionally and psychologically.


I agree.

[Hand Sword]

HS, having never been in this situation I *think* I'd agree. Lemme ask though does this imply - for everyone who claims they'd feel no guilt - that they're heartless and cold, period?

What I mean is, imagine you killed someone in an auto accident, would you feel guilty about that? I'd guess probably yes, therefore how can this sense of guilt be so easily switched off for the scenario outlined in Jenna's original post?

Respects!


No, they aren't cold and heartless period. If it was an auto accident, yes, I would feel guilty. But, I think the comparison is apples and oranges.
Tough one to answer though, in terms of putting it into words. (especially for me) Speaking for myself, for the original situation, I'd be protecting a loved one from a nasty predator. In self defense terms, you have to take them out in order to obtain safety. I would regret the incident, but, wouldn't feel sympathy for the assailant. As I said, once the charges cleared, I would feel relieved.

[Haze]

Guilt, no. I did what I had to do. I would feel some sorrow knowing that a life was taken but I would not think I would call it guilt. I would feel great guilt if I had done nothing and my partner had been killed.

[Jenna]

Well that kinds a complicated question, I'd like to say no because I was defending myself but then again I'm ot the hardest person ir most "thick skinned" guy in the world. Me and my one of my old sensei was discussing my lack of heartlessness in a fight when we where shooting pool last night.

The sad reality is I've never reached that numb point where I could hurt others and walk away un-effected. So yes I would regret it but then again I have allot of regrets I can say I wouldn't let regret stop my from getting on with my life...
hey mister Dark :) I do not know what is your honest experience in these things but I will take you at your word and not second guess you and in reply yes.. it is a complicated non-B&W question otherwise I would not have asked on here but just asked myself.. and I put this question in this corporeal form because i think it is a form that subscribers to the forum understand..

and let me ask you regarding your second point.. you never reached that "numb" point and this I understand absolutely and so you live with certain "regrets" as you have it.. well let me ask how do you do this? Do you wilfully suppress these thoughts over what you have done? Or do they get forgotten? Let me simplify.. in this here situation, you did someone permanent damage ..you put them out of the game FOR EVER.. you killed them in this case.. you are not that "numb" killer.. so how do you live with yourself?

thank you :)
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[Jenna]

which is on the logical/analytical side, I'm fairly sure that after the initial shock wore off, I would rationalize it as a "him or me" decision of survival that was forced upon me by someone clearly trying to kill me. I suppose it would always be in the back of my mind that I had killed another human being, but I don't THINK I would feel guilt (read: feel like I had done something wrong, or immoral).

Hey MT :) thank you once again my illiminated friend.. I would say for me the logical side is not a help but an hindrance.. the logical side is like the little Scottie terrier who wont let go of your jeans even after you show him the back of your hand he still keeps coming back.. does that make sense? In the aftermath of what you did in this hypothetical case for someone logical like yourself.. how do you stop that incessant analysis? hope this is understandable.. thank you for bearing with me ..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[pstarr]

Amen-

[MJS]

and let me ask you regarding your second point.. you never reached that "numb" point and this I understand absolutely and so you live with certain "regrets" as you have it.. well let me ask how do you do this? Do you wilfully suppress these thoughts over what you have done? Or do they get forgotten? Let me simplify.. in this here situation, you did someone permanent damage ..you put them out of the game FOR EVER.. you killed them in this case.. you are not that "numb" killer.. so how do you live with yourself?

thank you :)
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

I'm not speaking for Dark here, but I'll give my point of view on this. I have to wonder if anyone ever reaches that point. I mean, aside from being a serial killer, I'd think that the average person would always have something on their mind after the fact. I think my posts, #29 and #30, pretty much sum up my thoughts.:)

Mike

[CuongNhuka]

Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe there's just something wrong with me for not feeling guilty over this. I'm open to that possibilty. But maybe, just maybe, you might be painting with a rather broad brush when you make a statement like that. No offense. :asian:

I take no offense. I suppose I should be more specific. Extreme violence (the kind that comes with the other person being dead) comes with some feeling of guilt in all but the most de-humanized.
A good example of what I'm talking about is soldiers from past wars (WWI, WWII, and similar) were know to wake up in the middle of the night haveing night mares about what they had done and seen in war. Even though many said they had to, and felt no guilt, there subconcious said otherwise.

[Dark]

you never reached that "numb" point and this I understand absolutely and so you live with certain "regrets" as you have it.. well let me ask how do you do this? Do you wilfully suppress these thoughts over what you have done? Or do they get forgotten? Let me simplify.. in this here situation, you did someone permanent damage ..you put them out of the game FOR EVER.. you killed them in this case.. you are not that "numb" killer.. so how do you live with yourself?

I tend to see things as black and white, though not as cavalerly as others would. The black is I took a human life, in that senario and thus I am a murder. The White is I did it to save another, the white doesn't blur the black in a gray. To me a wrong for the right reason is still wrong, so as much as I might be a "hero" the reality is I'm just the "villian of different shade."

As to how I'd deal with the regret, same as I do the regrets I have now. Wake and face the day as best I can and then drink myself to sleep at night, it ain't glamerous but it's life. Would I think about it? Sure. Would it bother me? You bet. Can I change it? No... Simple really, if you aren't naturally numb to human suffering, find something to numb you...

[IcemanSK]

Since I haven't weighed in on this one as of yet, I will now. (And by the way, Jenna. Kudos to you once again for bringing up an interesting topic!)

I'm sure I would feel the unbelievable weight of such an event. I would feel both incredibly sad over what happened & happy that my companion wasn't injured more seriously. While I doubt it would be guilt that I would feel, I'm sure it would take some time on a Shrink's couch to sort it all out. And I say that with no shame at all. The incident is no small thing. And I would carry it with for the rest of my life. But guilt wouldn't be why.