Squeezing the Peach (Rear- Bear Hug; Arms Pinned)
1. An attacker at 6 o'clock grabs you in a bear hug and pins your arms in the process.

2. Step your left foot to 6 o'clock as your hands (pinned behind you) reach for and grab your attacker's testicles.

3. Step your left foot to 1:30 into a rear catstance as you pull on your attacker's testicles. Note: This should cause him to release his bear hug.

4. Release your attacker's groin from your grab as you execute a right heel scoop to your attacker's groin. Note: This scoop will pull through and chamber as a raised knee in front of you, hands out in front as well.

5. Step back into a right reverse bow facing 7:30 as you slam your straightened leg into your attacker's right leg, demolishing the kneecap, and simultaneously execute a right outward elbow to your attacker's solar plexus.

6. Cross out towards 1:30.

As you step to 11:30 to pull the peach and break the hold, shoot your right hand out as an outward handsword to break the hold. This sets up multiple attacker possiblities.
Mace

Originally posted by GouRonin

Squeezing the Peach (Rear- Bear Hug; Arms Pinned)
1. An attacker at 6 o'clock grabs you in a bear hug and pins your arms in the process.

2. Step your left foot to 6 o'clock as your hands (pinned behind you) reach for and grab your attacker's testicles.

3. Step your left foot to 1:30 into a rear catstance as you pull on your attacker's testicles. Note: This should cause him to release his bear hug.

4. Release your attacker's groin from your grab as you execute a right heel scoop to your attacker's groin. Note: This scoop will pull through and chamber as a raised knee in front of you, hands out in front as well.

5. Step back into a right reverse bow facing 7:30 as you slam your straightened leg into your attacker's right leg, demolishing the kneecap, and simultaneously execute a right outward elbow to your attacker's solar plexus.

6. Cross out towards 1:30.

And how much success do you have with this interpretation when attacked realistically? Are you looking for solutions, or alternatives? Consider this: When seized in a "hug" from the rear that also pins the arms, your mobility is severely restricted. In your verson I would suggest the simple act of "stepping" to 1:30 will be at least "difficult" if seriously grabbed.

being female, I can't say this for sure, but from what I've seen, if you grab a guy's ...uhm...peach, you can usually step any way you want, cause he's not thinking about grabbing you anymore. he's thinking about reaching down and protecting the...peaches...



Nightingale
who's silly bluebelt training partner found out the hard way that he should wear a cup in the dojo.

Originally posted by nightingale8472

being female, I can't say this for sure, but from what I've seen, if you grab a guy's ...uhm...peach, you can usually step any way you want, cause he's not thinking about grabbing you anymore. he's thinking about reaching down and protecting the...peaches...



Nightingale
who's silly bluebelt training partner found out the hard way that he should wear a cup in the dojo.

You are, as a female, are making an assumption not necessarily associated with the question at hand. You, also as a female, may not be able to grab his "peaches" when seized from behind with your arms pinned. To assume you can is a dangerous assumption.

It works better for me when I initally move back into a twist stance with the L-foot, and turning my left shoulder counter clockwise loosens up the hold.
Any thoughts Doc?

:asian:

Originally posted by kenmpoka

It works better for me when I initally move back into a twist stance with the L-foot, and turning my left shoulder counter clockwise loosens up the hold.
Any thoughts Doc?

:asian:

In my opinion, the option you suggest, as I understand it, will not work in a realistic street scenario. Moving "backwards" when someone is attacking you forward with body momentum while pinning your arms will negate such actions.

If someone gets you in a bear hug from behind then in all likelihood they're about to try to lift you up and move you--almost certainly by slamming you to the ground. Getting at the groin after they've pinned you may require some work--including getting a low base so they have trouble picking you up. I say, get a little finger on one of those hands and give it an extra joint!

Originally posted by arnisador

If someone gets you in a bear hug from behind then in all likelihood they're about to try to lift you up and move you--almost certainly by slamming you to the ground. Getting at the groin after they've pinned you may require some work--including getting a low base so they have trouble picking you up. I say, get a little finger on one of those hands and give it an extra joint!

yes, a bear hug is an aggressive move that leads somewhere- no one bearhugs by simply standing behind you and wrapping their arms around you- and if you practice it that way there's no wonder that you find it easy to move about freely.

but the reality is there would be a surge of momemtum and complete closing of any gap between the attacker and his intended victim as Doc is saying.

also you have a natural reflex response to move your hands forward and up to those arms that are crushing you- not back and around.

whatever anyone intends for this technique it would be practical as Arnisador writes, to prevent or delay any attempt to lift you as your first response- then proceed to a counter.

question 1: Doc do you use a version of this technique to handle bearhugs or do you offer other solutions?

question 2: Arnisador- you've already made an opening suggestion-- what type of complete response does FMA offer to this attack?

:asian:

Originally posted by jazkiljok

Arnisador- you've already made an opening suggestion-- what type of complete response does FMA offer to this attack?

Most FMAs don't train escapes from holds in my experience, in part because the assumption is always that there will be a weapon involved and so this type of situation is less likely (or more easily solved, if they bear hug you while you're holding a knife, say). Modern Arnis however does address these and the responses were strongly influenced by Wally Jay's SCJJ. So, a Modern Arnis style response would be to drop one's hips and widen one's stance to get a base; try to bridge one's arms out a bit to get some work room while keeping upright; work up and get a finger of one of your opponent's hands; bend or crush it; use that finger to peel off the hand; step out and around and put the arm in any convenient lock; take them down and control or finish or escape as appropriate.

A more natively Filipino approach would probably us dumog, getting at their upper arm and using it to pull them around. I don't know a specific example.

Originally posted by jazkiljok



yes, a bear hug is an aggressive move that leads somewhere- no one bearhugs by simply standing behind you and wrapping their arms around you- and if you practice it that way there's no wonder that you find it easy to move about freely.

but the reality is there would be a surge of momemtum and complete closing of any gap between the attacker and his intended victim as Doc is saying.

also you have a natural reflex response to move your hands forward and up to those arms that are crushing you- not back and around.

whatever anyone intends for this technique it would be practical as Arnisador writes, to prevent or delay any attempt to lift you as your first response- then proceed to a counter.

question 1: Doc do you use a version of this technique to handle bearhugs or do you offer other solutions?

question 2: Arnisador- you've already made an opening suggestion-- what type of complete response does FMA offer to this attack?

:asian:

In our curriculum we have several components that examine the assault side of every technique before it begins. One of these is the PSYCHOLOGY OF CONFRONTATION. This specifically looks at the attackers actions, how they are triggered, and what is his/her immediate and usually separate ultimate intent.

As a part of that process we are obliged to examine the PHYSICAL MECHANISMS that must come into play to launch the attack. This will yield the answer to establishing functional COUNTER MECHANISMS. In a bear hug scenario, your attacker moves swiftly to secure his actions. This causes him to bring substantial body momentum to the initial assault, as you said.

In this particular attack scenario, the ultimate intent is NOT simply the bear hug. In a singular assault the bear hug is initiated to IMMOBILIZE THE VICTIM for further action. Most likely this will facilitate the victim being “lifted from their feet.” In most instances there is a size and possible GENDER DISPARITY between the victim and the attacker. (I am not suggesting people of the same gender don’t bear hug each other, but when they do the PSYCHOLOGY is different.)

That makes this attacker more dangerous because they are of a type we call a PREDATOR. This is much different from a spontaneous attack. This person moves surreptitiously, “lays in wait,” has thought the attack through to a point, and “has some semblance of a plan.” This also falls into the subcategory of a “MUGGER HUGGER.” Much different from throwing a punch or a TACKLE, because a “tackler” has a different intent, and brings BODY MOMENTUM in a different purposeful way.

Our solution comes under the most important category in the assault categories. It is called SURVIVE THE INITIAL ASSAULT™. S.I.A. is a “Sub-Level Four Kenpo Concept that focuses on the performance of the first part of self-defense techniques to insure immediate stability and the absorption of the first offensive action. This leads to the ability to execute and complete the technique sequence, and ultimate survival and effective retaliation.” It includes an anti-grappling mechanism called a "GCM"™ along with significant postures and footwork and pins in conjunction with specifc basics.

This component is taught differently for each type and variation of an assault theme. It is one of the many subtle things that makes the way I was taught and SL-4 “different.”

In this assault, we have physical mechanisms that first absorb the BODY MOMENTUM, re-configure the attacker to a NEGATIVE BODY POSTURE™, and IMMOBILIZE his body as well as PIN his hands in most instances. This prevents him from being able to move, lift, or release. Once this is done and the situation is stabilized, then we move to retaliation mechanisms.

Although this seems complex, (and in a sense it is) someone who has never done it can be “walked through” it rather simply in person. Unfortunately it really is too difficult to understand the subtleties when written. For that reason we don’t even include it in our coursebooks. It is taught by certificated staff in the classroom environment. It is not a “secret” and I share it with students I meet all the time.

It's great to see the discussions move toward reasonable and intelligent thoughts. That is what makes these forums worth the effort. Also a reminder that I am not suggesting someone else's teachings are wrong, but only sharing what I was taught and created to add to the discussion and to provoke thought.

Respectfully

Excerpt from SubLevel Four Kenpo Course 104

SQUEEZING THE PEACH - (Rear bear hug -- arms pinned low)

1. SURVIVE THE INITIAL ASSAULT and absorb his momentum and with your feet together, and your opponent applying the bear-hug, step back slightly with your left foot toward 6:00 into a right MODIFIED SHORT forward bow (facing 12 o'clock). Push your buttocks into him to control depth. Use your momentum to REVERSE HEAD BUTT, then SHOTGUN SLAP, followed by a SEIZE of your opponent's testicles or flesh inside of thigh with your left hand, holding tight, keeping your opponent tight against your body. During this action your right hand should attempt to apply a PINNING check on top of your opponent's right wrist, and pulls downward. All of this should cause your opponent to release or at least loosen his grip. PAUSE
2. Immediately step straight forward with your left foot (while maintaining the grab
with your left hand tightly) toward 12 o'clock into a left neutral bow pulling your opponent with you, causing him to open his legs and, placing his crotch directly over your right foot. PAUSE
3. Now Pivot toward 3:00 into a horse stance, pulling and jerking downward then immediately striking with a right upward heel kick to your opponent's groin. STOP
4. With your right leg still in the air from the right heel kick, buckle your opponent’s
left inner knee by stomping into a right reverse bow toward 10:30. Then immediately execute a right BACK OBSCURE ELBOW strike to the chin of your opponent, as your left hand slap checks at your right shoulder.
5. Execute a right front crossover, and cover out toward 4:30.
Timing & Breathing Signature: 1 P 2 P 34 C
GCM Signature™: 1G, 23, 4G, 5

Originally posted by arnisador



Most FMAs don't train escapes from holds in my experience, in part because the assumption is always that there will be a weapon involved and so this type of situation is less likely (or more easily solved, if they bear hug you while you're holding a knife, say). Modern Arnis however does address these and the responses were strongly influenced by Wally Jay's SCJJ. ...

A more natively Filipino approach would probably us dumog, getting at their upper arm and using it to pull them around. I don't know a specific example.

it is fascinating how culture influences the martial arts of different societies. the common carrying of knifes and machetes might alter how you attack some one i assume:D

i believe the late great Remy Presas had developed a great rapport with Wally Jay while touring together giving seminars- that might explain the relationship.

and working a finger at its joint is very effective- though not demostrated in the techniques- it is taught out of one of the Kenpo forms.


Doc- always much food for thought. i regret that we don't have familiarity with your coding system- and i agree that writing a technique out is never enough -- words do fail to explain or teach the intricacies of the fighting arts. that said- you do a very good job anyway:D

" Push your buttocks into him to control depth. "

it would seem to me that this is where you win or lose the battle- right? along with the reverse head butt-- now we're talking.

thank you both for your responses.

:asian:

Originally posted by jazkiljok



it is fascinating how culture influences the martial arts of different societies. the common carrying of knifes and machetes might alter how you attack some one i assume:D

i believe the late great Remy Presas had developed a great rapport with Wally Jay while touring together giving seminars- that might explain the relationship.

and working a finger at its joint is very effective- though not demostrated in the techniques- it is taught out of one of the Kenpo forms.


Doc- always much food for thought. i regret that we don't have familiarity with your coding system- and i agree that writing a technique out is never enough -- words do fail to explain or teach the intricacies of the fighting arts. that said- you do a very good job anyway:D

" Push your buttocks into him to control depth. "

it would seem to me that this is where you win or lose the battle- right? along with the reverse head butt-- now we're talking.

thank you both for your responses.

:asian:

Thank you for the kind words. Unfortunately the battle is won or lost in the part that is unwritten. If you can't "survive the initial assault," you won't be able to do the rest of the technique. Much appreciated.

Are #4, and #5 clock directions correct?

:asian:

Originally posted by kenmpoka

Are #4, and #5 clock directions correct?

:asian:

Absolutely correct!

I missed the part pivoting to 3:00. My mistake.

:asian:

Originally posted by kenmpoka

I missed the part pivoting to 3:00. My mistake.

:asian:
Hey Sir. Now that's unusual. You're a detail man and don't usually miss anything. Let me know how it works for you.

Doc:

Couple of questions...

What's a shotgun slap, and what does this mean?

5. Execute a right front crossover, and cover out toward 4:30.
Timing & Breathing Signature: 1 P 2 P 34 C
GCM Signature™: 1G, 23, 4G, 5


I understand the right front crossover and cover bit, but not the two lines that follow.

Originally posted by nightingale8472

Doc:

Couple of questions...

What's a shotgun slap, and what does this mean?

5. Execute a right front crossover, and cover out toward 4:30.
Timing & Breathing Signature: 1 P 2 P 34 C
GCM Signature™: 1G, 23, 4G, 5


I understand the right front crossover and cover bit, but not the two lines that follow.

SHOTGUN STRIKE - An open handed finger spread slap with the palm or back of the hand. This method has a greater tolerance for error and radiates energy through a PERCUSSION type strike. Also used against harder targets in training to make contact without injury.

TIME SIGNATURE - Sub-Level Four Kenpo self-defense techniques have a particular rhythm of proper execution that allows for PAIRED RHYTHM reactions of your opponent and conforms to DESTRUCTIVE SEQUENCING PACING. When written into a technique as a simple formula, it is known as a “Timing Signature.” It also conforms to a breathing rhythm that promotes the development of internal Qi energy. Therefore each self-defense technique is in itself a micro “Taiji” form with practical application emphasized as it is learned instead of later in the old Chinese method.

BREATHING SIGNATURE* - The Sub-Level Four Kenpo Breathing Signature™ instructs students to breath in the appropriate manner within the technique sequence. Without proper breathing, internal energy and explosive technique execution may not be achieved. The combination of the Breathing and Timing Signatures™ creates in essence a
mini-Qi-gung "Taiji" form of every technique. Therefore some of its benefits may be achieved when a partner is not available, while achieving physical and mental focus with the enhancement or creation of an internal energy bridge to the physical action.

I love LA (except for the schools) :) Kids can't read and they are worried about vending machines?

being female, I can't say this for sure, but from what I've seen, if you grab a guy's ...uhm...peach, you can usually step any way you want, cause he's not thinking about grabbing you anymore. he's thinking about reaching down and protecting the...peaches...



Nightingale
who's silly bluebelt training partner found out the hard way that he should wear a cup in the dojo.Not in my experience.I knew of a women that was hurt bad when she did this!The guy just slamed the side of her head and knocking her out with his fist!!!I like to keep my hands free for blocking defence.

I suggest using a reverse bow as you pin and step back, thereby giving your opponent an angle of disturbance.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

Not in my experience.I knew of a women that was hurt bad when she did this!The guy just slamed the side of her head and knocking her out with his fist!!!I like to keep my hands free for blocking defence.

I was always taught to first pin both of his hands with your right hand and than to step back and ummm "squeeze the peach"

This way you do not have to worry about blocking anything. But you must know where the opponents head is.

I think I'd go with an entirely different response.
1) Drop suddenly/forcefully into a deep, low horse stance, while flashing both arms up to the side (Crane-fashion). The dropping combined with the arm leverage should at least get your arms free to the elbow.

From here I'd go with two possibilties:
2a) Double Eagle's Claw seizes of the both achille's tendons, throwing arms out while driving up with your legs/dilating the body. This should ground your opponent. Finish with a heel stomp to the groin and escape.

2b) Double Dragon's Fist strike to the nerve centers in hands/wrists, Dragon spiral to face opponent with knees/elbows/etc to clear the way. Spiral/Dan Tien launched front strike to the solar plexus as you spin into place. Then the fight will be on equal footing. Open Can O' Whoop@rse. Apply liberally.

1. I don't think so. The horse stance won't give you a bracing angle against a rear attack, and you'll be down.

2. a) I'm pretty sure these, "Achilles tendon grabs," assuming you can get down there without being crunched face first into the ground, will not remotely work against at least three people I train with regularly; b) in kenpo, the preferable techniques would be Twirling Sacrifice or Scraping Hooves, if you were in the position to do tham against a rear bear hug, which you probably aren't.

3. Uh...no. You've been bear hugged and your arms are pinned; you're not going to get your hands up and hit those wrists, and if you could, you'd try something like the technique Menacing Twirl...

4. Sorry, but your first and third options are based entirely on upper-case attacks--"Squeezing," goes lower case, because it has to. And the second one, sorry again, just doesn't seem remotely realistic, as you'd have to somehow get both arms out of their pin before anything else happened.

5. You'd actually be better off just screwing up, allowing yourself to get yanked back, and accidentally head-butt the attcker as your head whipped back.

The guy can still pick you up in a horse stance, that is why with all of those techniques with a bear-hug you do not just step to the side in a horse stance, you step back slightly with whatever foot you are supposed to. Now that I think about it there are other techniques where you should do that also. Cross of Destuction for example.

The guy can still pick you up in a horse stance, that is why with all of those techniques with a bear-hug you do not just step to the side in a horse stance, you step back slightly with whatever foot you are supposed to. Now that I think about it there are other techniques where you should do that also. Cross of Destuction for example.
Stepping back will not lend you stability with an aggressive attacker in all circumstances. Whatever the technique, you must survive his initial attack and arrive at some measure of control before you attempt to counter. You will find you may have more success with this technique if you step forward first.

The guy can still pick you up in a horse stance, that is why with all of those techniques with a bear-hug you do not just step to the side in a horse stance, you step back slightly with whatever foot you are supposed to. Now that I think about it there are other techniques where you should do that also. Cross of Destuction for example.
If someone bear hugs you from behind, the initial grab is combined with a tackle. you will naturally stumble forward. Like Doc said, you need to survive the initial attack......of course he is always right.

Salute,

If someone bear hugs you from behind, the initial grab is combined with a tackle. you will naturally stumble forward. Like Doc said, you need to survive the initial attack......of course he is always right.

Salute,
Yes sir, I think most consider these technique in a pristine environment. These types of attacks almost always bring an expeditious attack to catch you unaware. This fact alone will insure you will be "hit" with his "mass" and driven forward to an extent before he attempts to follow up with his intentions. If a person is incapable of absorbing and countering this, they've already lost.

..of course he is always right.

Could you please give me a call, I've got some people I need you to talk to. :)

If someone bear hugs you from behind, the initial grab is combined with a tackle. you will naturally stumble forward. Like Doc said, you need to survive the initial attack......of course he is always right.

Salute,
Now this is a ponderable, NOT. The catalyst for STP is for a BHAP with a pull back to 6. If the intial action is a push, the extension for the technique works in it's place, it (the extension) is afterall, a technique unto itself.

DarK LorD

I think I'd go with an entirely different response.
1) Drop suddenly/forcefully into a deep, low horse stance, while flashing both arms up to the side (Crane-fashion). The dropping combined with the arm leverage should at least get your arms free to the elbow.

.
I've had people try that, they ended up in a vertical rear naked choke.

DarK LorD

Now this is a ponderable, NOT. The catalyst for STP is for a BHAP with a pull back to 6. If the intial action is a push, the extension for the technique works in it's place, it (the extension) is afterall, a technique unto itself.

DarK LorD

Yes, if you go by the book in a perfect ideal stage. But my friend any bear hug from the rear will have some initial pushing / tackle effect. Then if the attacker decides to pull you to 6, then you go a la STP.
Much like "Delayed Sword" where the intial grab pushes the shoulder back if not the whole body.

Salute,

P.S. your absolutely right about the naked choke, unless you tilt your body forward (with a butt strike) and then follow thru...... (the tek can be found in the traditional kata "Gojushiho", just for a reference)

I've had people try that, they ended up in a vertical rear naked choke.

DarK LorD
This is worth noting, since it's one of the things people flow to from almost any kind of grab from behind.

Aside from pushing and pulling, it's very common (and effective) to go from a bearhug style grip to spinning and slamming, either by sweeping the leg or by lifting and pivoting, or (as a wrestler might try), stepping in then dropping backwards in a roll or arch, landing you on your head. I personally enjoy using a variant where I let the person raise an arm, then prop it while sealing the other arm and the hollow of the elbow joint. If they try to get a shot back, that's great; I get a decent arm drag or standing elbow lock from there. I either roll back and press my hips up or ride the person right to the ground.

Given that I'm trying to press my thigh right up againts the other person and driving my head to their neck, a headbutt and groin strike are pretty difficult to land. As the bear hugger I want to seal off as much space as possible to prevent a shot and get my hips to *replace* the location of your hips as forcefully as possible.

You want to:

* get my grip as far away from my center of mass as possible.
* keep the fold or joint of the elbow from being pressed.
* keep your shoulders level, so your armpit doesn't become a way for me to float your upper body.

Yes, if you go by the book in a perfect ideal stage. But my friend any bear hug from the rear will have some initial pushing / tackle effect.


P.S. your absolutely right about the naked choke, unless you tilt your body forward (with a butt strike) and then follow thru...... (the tek can be found in the traditional kata "Gojushiho", just for a reference)

The ext. to STP is still an ideal phase but most don't or won't recognize these extensions as individual techs.

I know I'm right about the choke, I've done it to more people than I can count LOL.

DarK LorD

The ext. to STP is still an ideal phase but most don't or won't recognize these extensions as individual techs.

I know I'm right about the choke, I've done it to more people than I can count LOL.

DarK LorD

Clyde, all I am saying is that anyone with an intent to bear hug, specially a guy will come at you in a form of a tackle/push/hug, right shoulder and right leg leading in case of a right handed person, that will bounce you forward to a certain degree. So in that case, you'll need to, as Doc Chapél puts it, survive the initial assault, and then move back into his leg......

The ext. to STP as I remember, excludes squeezing the peach, by moving in, out and backin to the other side, checking the attacker's left leg....but still the tackle effect remains the same initially. What do you think?

Salute,

Yes, if you go by the book in a perfect ideal stage. But my friend any bear hug from the rear will have some initial pushing / tackle effect. Then if the attacker decides to pull you to 6, then you go a la STP.
Much like "Delayed Sword" where the intial grab pushes the shoulder back if not the whole body.

Salute,

P.S. your absolutely right about the naked choke, unless you tilt your body forward (with a butt strike) and then follow thru...... (the tek can be found in the traditional kata "Gojushiho", just for a reference)A butt STRIKE? I'm having trouble picturing this. Okay, maybe not... Just sounds funny to me.

:lol:

Clyde, all I am saying is that anyone with an intent to bear hug, specially a guy will come at you in a form of a tackle/push/hug, right shoulder and right leg leading in case of a right handed person, that will bounce you forward to a certain degree. So in that case, you'll need to, as Doc Chapél puts it, survive the initial assault, and then move back into his leg......

The ext. to STP as I remember, excludes squeezing the peach, by moving in, out and backin to the other side, checking the attacker's left leg....but still the tackle effect remains the same initially. What do you think?

Salute,

I totally agree with you

I really have to agree with the most important part of "Surviving" the initial attack. Without this you have nothing.


Van pulls up next to you you turn and look... WHAM! Bear hug from behind with LOTS of forward pressure lifting you off your feet ... moving you towards the now open van door. Kidnapping a snatch and grab.

You better make darn sure you dont get in that van or your dead.

More then likely the person throwing the bear hug on you will be bigger, stronger and have a very well lined out purpose for doing it.

You must survive that if you want to pull off ANY technique.

Granted you could just as well be picked up by a drunk in a bar trying to help break up a fight. Their are no absolutes, except Surviving the attack.

Much more knowledgable people about the actual specifics of the rear bear hug arms pinned technique can chime in about that. I just wanted to say how much I liked the description ... "Survive the initial attack..."