Sacrifice

[green meanie]

I was having a discussion with my students one time and the conversation turned on to the topic of how many people have come through our doors over the years, and worked out with us, only to quit later on.

We're a very small outfit up here and most people hear about my place by word of mouth. So most come here already knowing what they're getting themselves into so it isn't the shock of what we're doing that scares people off. And many train for a few weeks, months, and even years before they suddenly decide that this isn't for them.

I've come to the conclusion that it isn't what we're doing that makes staying with this too hard, it's what practice time interferes with... what they have to give up... that makes training too difficult for them to continue. I wrapped up the conversation by saying the martial arts are about sacrifice, it's not what you have to do that makes the journey difficult, it's what you have to give up and let go of along that makes it hard.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Cirdan]

I wouldn`t exactly call it sacrifice. Dedication I think. If you want to do martial arts there is no way you can`t spare a few hours a week for this even if you have a busy scedule.

[Carol]

Prioritizing. MA doesn't have to be absolutely every single waking moment of your life, but you have to prioritize some amount of time to it.

[Flying Crane]

Depends on how you look at it. I personally don't see much in it that is a sacrifice. It is simply what I want, so it is what I do. I don't feel like I have given up something else to be able to train. Compared with my passion to train, other things pale. I wouldn't rather spend my training time in other ways.

If other obligations interfered with my ability to train, I would consider that a sacrifice.

[Flying Crane]

I wouldn`t exactly call it sacrifice. Dedication I think. If you want to do martial arts there is no way you can`t spare a few hours a week for this even if you have a busy scedule.

Yeah, turn off the damn TV after work, put on your workout clothes and start moving. It is so easy to get lulled into wasting time that could be so much better spent.

[stone_dragone]

Quoting Coach Couzo in "Best of the Best":

"We all have our priorities."

Its amazing how many brown belts and used-to-be-a-blackbelt's there are running around.

[still learning]

Hello, Remember we all have to live/work to survive. The first priorty is to your Family. 2nd to your work..which takes care of the family.

Martial arts can be 3,4,5,6, and so on. When you have children...this should take the highest priorty in your life...It is your job to raise them.

There is more to life than just martial arts, for some it is a hobby,part-time, in time you will know if you like it or not.

We live in world where street fighting is not that common...so martial arts do not become that important.

There are so many other things we all enjoy to....Fishing,Hunting,Diving,Hiking,and all sports included.

To be a TRUE martial artist...it must become your whole life....nothing else exists....train and practice...train and practice.....

Families always should be first. Your Job should be 2nd.....than whatever you want it to be...............Aloha

PS: Two kids in High School,one going to College next year. Have two jobs and train every Monday and Wednesdays.....Love to go Ulua fishing and camping at the beach......use to go often...lucky a few times a year....

[green meanie]

Its amazing how many brown belts and used-to-be-a-blackbelt's there are running around.

No doubt.

[MJS]

I was having a discussion with my students one time and the conversation turned on to the topic of how many people have come through our doors over the years, and worked out with us, only to quit later on.

We're a very small outfit up here and most people hear about my place by word of mouth. So most come here already knowing what they're getting themselves into so it isn't the shock of what we're doing that scares people off. And many train for a few weeks, months, and even years before they suddenly decide that this isn't for them.

I've come to the conclusion that it isn't what we're doing that makes staying with this too hard, it's what practice time interferes with... what they have to give up... that makes training too difficult for them to continue. I wrapped up the conversation by saying the martial arts are about sacrifice, it's not what you have to do that makes the journey difficult, it's what you have to give up and let go of along that makes it hard.

What are your thoughts on this?

I agree, alot of it comes down to the dedication that people have. Real life issues are things that pretty much everyone has. However, I think its important, especially, if the Martial Arts are something that you want to be a part of your life, that you find that equal balance.

When I first started training, I was still in school and held a PT job a few nights a week, so needless to say, I had quite a bit of training time. As time went on, and I entered into that real life phase, I found that my training time began to decrease, however, I still made time to get in a few days of training, rather than just give it up altogether.

Everyone has different goals and priorities when they begin their training. Some obviously find that their training goals are not as high as other things.

Mike

[tshadowchaser]

Family ( that includes having to work to support them),school, religion ( for some) all should take place before your practice.
Now having said that i admit that families will allow you the time i it is not all your time. Some even encourage you to practice.
It is that small amount of time that (as had been said) you normally watch v or go fishing or sew, etc that your martial arts bites into so you must decide what time you allow what, and what you are willing to do with out

[Myles_Lonell]

I have always felt that Martial Arts is more of a calling. It sounds kind of cheesy, but I believe that it takes a certain kind of person to stick with an MA program, and if you don't feel "pulled" to it, it's not for you. To me, things like MA feels spiritual. You can always find some kind of time to practice. Saying you can't is only an excuse. Call me crazy, but that is my opinion.

[Brother John]

I've come to the conclusion that it isn't what we're doing that makes staying with this too hard, it's what practice time interferes with... what they have to give up... that makes training too difficult for them to continue. I wrapped up the conversation by saying the martial arts are about sacrifice, it's not what you have to do that makes the journey difficult, it's what you have to give up and let go of along that makes it hard.

What are your thoughts on this?

Not everyone wants to, or will, pay the price.... but that'll never change the fact that doing well and growing in the martial arts will always come at a high price in personal sacrifice.
The thing is.... do the rewards warant the cost??

That's up to each person to decide, but each instructor or school owner/manager should scrutinize this sentiment and have their finger on it's pulse.
NOT that it'll lead them to change things much if any, but at least they'll have a better understanding of "WHY".

Your Brother
John

[masterfinger]

I've lost more students to wives & girlfriends that complained they were spending too much time training, than any other reason.
IMO it's more a matter of making the time as opposed to making a sacrifice. To me, most long time MA'ists are doing it for the love, some for the money, but either way it eventually turns into a "way of life" simply through the amount of time invested, with the thought of sacrificing long gone. A persons outlook on things can determine whether their training contains sacrifices. For example, a married man with kids wants to start training. Now does he sacrifice time spent with the family to go train, or does he sign up the family to train along with him? A pessimist could comment that he's sacrificing the extra money it takes to include his family, while an optimist could say he's "making" quality time by including them in his training. When one of my students makes it to the higher levels (1 out of dozens) I usually give them the short speech commending them on the "hard work and sacrifice" it took to get there. By the time they get there, "sacrifice" is usually replaced by "way of life" in their minds.

Franco

[Drac]

Its amazing how many brown belts and used-to-be-a-blackbelt's there are running around.

Amen dragone..I constantly hear "I use to do that karate stuff" but I quit because I'm too old for all that now..These are guys in their late 30's early 40's..TOO OLD????

[MartialIntent]

I've come to the conclusion that it isn't what we're doing that makes staying with this too hard, it's what practice time interferes with... what they have to give up... that makes training too difficult for them to continue. I wrapped up the conversation by saying the martial arts are about sacrifice, it's not what you have to do that makes the journey difficult, it's what you have to give up and let go of along that makes it hard.

What are your thoughts on this?
Saying that it's about sacrifice is true to a point but I think the implication there is that by *not* making the sacrifice to continue, somehow these people are less committed. While that may be the case, in my experience, life gets in the way and as Carol has said already, it's about prioritization. For some folk their MA may claim a higher spot than taking their kids to various activities after school and for others it won't. And of course there are as many alternatives to MA and other priorities over MA as there are practitioners of the arts.

Be philosophical, if you're convinced that it's nothing to do with your school or club being able to maintain momentum and sustain motivation amongst the higher ranks, then a few other possibilities might be either that their lives got in the way of their ability to continue or simply that folk have different goals.

I mean, as trainers in such goal-driven times, we gotta ask ourselves the question: what am I doing to keep senior members challenged once they've reached BB status?

By way of analogy, some folk leave high school as soon as they can get work, some study further, go to college/university as a means to a "better" job perhaps, and some persist beyond that and do their masters and doctorates because firstly they enjoy the challenge of research and further study into their discipline and secondly because there's a chance they can make a name for themselves or give something back to the academic community they're a part of.

I think in some ways this is akin to striving for progress in MA - some folk just want basic skills and leave after they've picked up the minimum, some are striving [either consciously or subconsciously] for purple, brown or black belts or sashes and then others, having reached that stage seek not only continued further enlightenment for themselves but the chance to develop new things and pass on to others. In this case, we're neither questioning the instructor or school nor are we particularly talking about prioritization but rather that the reason folk stay for varying durations might simply be because everyone just has a different goal. That's not particularly clever or novel but perhaps soem food for thought, fwiw. Good luck.

Respects!

[painstain]

i see where sacrifice comes in. its not hard to train as a white belt wqhen it comes to motivation, but as you move up and more is expected from you it becomes more demanding. you get to a point where the instructor needs and uses you. maybe its to take some kids and work on their technique, or maybe taken som adults and working on self defense. perhaps every once in a while you call on one of your students to teach for you. all the sudden you need more time to train because your doing the other part of martial arts by helping. or maybe your moving to a new training ficility and you need help. so i need to give up my day in spirit of being where my instuctor needs me to be. volunteering at tests to spar just to be that much more tire when your test comes around. maybe bringing some water for everyone in class just to show support.

with respect,
painstain

[Kenpojujitsu3]

i see where sacrifice comes in. its not hard to train as a white belt wqhen it comes to motivation, but as you move up and more is expected from you it becomes more demanding. you get to a point where the instructor needs and uses you. maybe its to take some kids and work on their technique, or maybe taken som adults and working on self defense. perhaps every once in a while you call on one of your students to teach for you. all the sudden you need more time to train because your doing the other part of martial arts by helping. or maybe your moving to a new training ficility and you need help. so i need to give up my day in spirit of being where my instuctor needs me to be. volunteering at tests to spar just to be that much more tire when your test comes around. maybe bringing some water for everyone in class just to show support.

with respect,
painstain

Yeah, I've been down those roads. It's a constant cycle in the arts but it's necessary for the arts to continue.

[Brother John]

I've lost more students to wives & girlfriends that complained they were spending too much time training, than any other reason.
IMO it's more a matter of making the time as opposed to making a sacrifice. To me, most long time MA'ists are doing it for the love, some for the money, but either way it eventually turns into a "way of life" simply through the amount of time invested, with the thought of sacrificing long gone. A persons outlook on things can determine whether their training contains sacrifices. For example, a married man with kids wants to start training. Now does he sacrifice time spent with the family to go train, or does he sign up the family to train along with him? A pessimist could comment that he's sacrificing the extra money it takes to include his family, while an optimist could say he's "making" quality time by including them in his training. When one of my students makes it to the higher levels (1 out of dozens) I usually give them the short speech commending them on the "hard work and sacrifice" it took to get there. By the time they get there, "sacrifice" is usually replaced by "way of life" in their minds.

Franco
OK...
but I'm a married man with a family, and my family doesn't want to do martial arts.
My son wants to do soccer, my daughter dance and my wife an aerobics class and we all have events at church...
so now what? I can't "include" them in my training, this path is not for everyone.
For me, martial arts IS a 'way of life', but there is still sacrifice. It is unavoidable. My family is THE most important thing in my life, but I do cut out some time each day to practice and then some time each week for classes.
HOW is that not sacrifice??

Sorry if I come off all peeved about your point of view, but it seems like you are saying that if I don't joyfully give my time to the martial arts and drag everyone along with me.....I'm not in it for the love of the arts or the "way".
Or....I have a 'wrong' attitude.
what gives?

Your Brother
John

[Fluffy]

I'm not going to wade through everyone else's answer here, I already have my view. So please excuse me if someone else has said this.

You are going through what most professional commercial clubs/schools went through in the 90's. Thanks to "The Karate Kid" "Teen age mutant Ninja Turtles" and "Power Rangers" we had an influx of kids. The kids could not handle the 'old school' mentality of macho training, so all had to make that choice - heavy style training, or lighter training with games.....

It matters what you want to do. If you want to grow, create a lighter class - if you want to stay the same (and there is nothing wrong with that) stay the same.

Good luck! And keep it fun!

[green meanie]

I'm not going to wade through everyone else's answer here, I already have my view. So please excuse me if someone else has said this.

You are going through what most professional commercial clubs/schools went through in the 90's. Thanks to "The Karate Kid" "Teen age mutant Ninja Turtles" and "Power Rangers" we had an influx of kids. The kids could not handle the 'old school' mentality of macho training, so all had to make that choice - heavy style training, or lighter training with games.....

It matters what you want to do. If you want to grow, create a lighter class - if you want to stay the same (and there is nothing wrong with that) stay the same.

Good luck! And keep it fun!

No offense but you missed the point. This isn't about me. I'm not running a commercial school. I'm not the least bit concerned or upset about my numbers. This is just a conversation I had with some of my students who have witnessed firsthand their friends falling by the wayside while they continue to drive on.

I run the classes the way I want them to run. The ones who want to be a part of this are here. The ones who don't, aren't. It's not a problem. This is just what I believed might be an interesting subject and just thought I would share. Sorry for the misunderstanding. :asian:

[Fluffy]

My bad. Re-read your post. My overall point is the same though, I hate to see good instructors quit or "falling by the wayside" because they do not want to adapt to a changing society.

[Explorer]

It seems to me that 'sacrifice' would be the wrong word to describe my situation. I think martial arts, breathe martial arts ... it's never gone from my thoughts for very long. Not because I'm committed to it ... but because at some level ... it committed itself to me. I know it's a wierd way of saying it but I feel that what martial arts training and philosophy have given me so far outweigh my 'sacrifices' that I don't feel as if I've sacrificed anything. My wife and children have always understood that my life includes this martial arts thing and they share my joy in discovery and growth.

WOW! THAT came out pretty smarmy! But it is what it is.

:)

[masterfinger]

OK...
but I'm a married man with a family, and my family doesn't want to do martial arts.
My son wants to do soccer, my daughter dance and my wife an aerobics class and we all have events at church...
so now what? I can't "include" them in my training, this path is not for everyone.
For me, martial arts IS a 'way of life', but there is still sacrifice. It is unavoidable. My family is THE most important thing in my life, but I do cut out some time each day to practice and then some time each week for classes.
1 - HOW is that not sacrifice??

2 - Sorry if I come off all peeved about your point of view, but it seems like you are saying that if I don't joyfully give my time to the martial arts and drag everyone along with me.....I'm not in it for the love of the arts or the "way".
Or....I have a 'wrong' attitude.
what gives?

Your Brother
John
1 - Who said that is not sacrifice? I think you need to re-read my post. I didn't mean to generalise everyone that trains, because having to scarifice for training can be on an individual basis. My family accepts the time I put into my training/teaching because it's been a part of my life since way before they were around. So my family looks at it like other families do when their dads go fishing, bowling or to their Water Buffalo Lodge meetings :drinkbeer . I guess I'm lucky in that. Do I consider the time I spend away from them a sacrifice? No. If you take into consideration the amount of time I spend with my son doing weekend activities, attending PTA meetings and school activities and coaching his little league football team, I think a little me time is okay. Three 2 hour sessions per week is nothing compared to the time I spend with my family, and they mean EVERYTHING to me too John.
2 - Hey, no biggie. You're getting peeved over nothing because that wasn't at all what I was saying. Sorry, but I should've meant to say that this was more of my personal experience when it came to the part about it becoming more of a way of life over time as opposed to a sacrifice. For me, there might have been some sacrifice when I first began training, but I never looked at it like that and those small sacrifices dissappeared, and it turned into a way of life real fast.
I'm lucky, like Explorer, I never felt like I had to sacrifice anything.
You know what John? The more I thought about this, I realised that lately I've actually had to scarifice some of my training time in order to attend alot of school & sports functions with the family! Kinda ironic huh?

:asian: Franco

[Kensai]

Yeah, turn off the damn TV after work, put on your workout clothes and start moving. It is so easy to get lulled into wasting time that could be so much better spent.

Amen brother, that's is smack on the money.

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Yeah, turn off the damn TV after work, put on your workout clothes and start moving. It is so easy to get lulled into wasting time that could be so much better spent.

Hey! My xbox360 is not a waste of time! I learn alot of practical martial arts by playing video games. Now if I could only remember how to throw that fireball again....hmmmm............. :idunno:

Good point as always Crane!

[Jenna]

I wrapped up the conversation by saying the martial arts are about sacrifice, it's not what you have to do that makes the journey difficult, it's what you have to give up and let go of along that makes it hard.

What are your thoughts on this?
Hey Denny my friend :) and does this mean for you personally that you would relinquish everything to continue your martial journey? Cos I would have thought in your case there were many great things that you would NOT be prepared to sacrifice for any of your martial arts, yes?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[masterfinger]

Hey! My xbox360 is not a waste of time! I learn alot of practical martial arts by playing video games. Now if I could only remember how to throw that fireball again....hmmmm............. :idunno:
Good point as always Crane!

LOL, good one. It's funny cause one of the lesser examples (in some opinions) of sacrifice is simply getting off the couch. But to some, thats an extreme example (some folks are just really lazy).

Franco

[Brother John]

1 - Who said that is not sacrifice? I think you need to re-read my post.
:asian: Franco
Your'e right Franco...

oddly enough, I usually try to stay 'detatched' when replying to posts here. Thing is.....it struck a nerve as my wife and I had recently had conflicts about the balance between my out-of-the-dojo life and my IN the dojo life...
it's a balancing act., and the tension from it was very much on the surface.

Sorry to have been wearing my heart on my sleeve there.

Your Brother
John

[masterfinger]

Your'e right Franco...

oddly enough, I usually try to stay 'detatched' when replying to posts here. Thing is.....it struck a nerve as my wife and I had recently had conflicts about the balance between my out-of-the-dojo life and my IN the dojo life...
it's a balancing act., and the tension from it was very much on the surface.

Sorry to have been wearing my heart on my sleeve there.

Your Brother
John
My friend, no apologies needed. Like I said in the 1st sentence of my original post "I've lost more students to wives and girlfriends.....". So if anything, I understand & commend you on enduring the conflicts you suffer for maintaining the "way of life" that could someday save her life.


Franco

[matt.m]

For me it is a way of life in a lot of regards. Here is why: I belong to the same organization as my father. I was raised around hapkido and tae kwon and judo. It is like hand a glove with me almost. Even though I am low ranking currently in Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido. I have my green in tae kwon do and my orange in hapkido. I have my brown in Judo.

This does not take away from the fact that I am quite knowledgeable about the organizations history. To me it is not hard to make time for Moo Sul Kwan. Not at all, it is theraputic physically and mentally to go to class twice a week, and work for a half hour or so daily. I don't care if it is stretching, kicking, forms, basic moves, wrist or clothes techniques whatever.

I am married and have a nice job, I know how to dedicate time to each to keep everything in balance. Really I agree with it being a dedication aspect, it is not in any way a sacrifice issue. If it is a sacrifice then you are doing Martial Arts for all the wrong reasons.

I was in the Marine Corps like my good friend Meanie. He understands dedication. To get past the Marine Drill Instructors and have a successful enlistment takes dedication. Afterall there was no putting in a two weeks notice.

[green meanie]

Hey Denny my friend :) and does this mean for you personally that you would relinquish everything to continue your martial journey? Cos I would have thought in your case there were many great things that you would NOT be prepared to sacrifice for any of your martial arts, yes?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Good question. Let us hope it never get's put to the test. I have a wife who doesn't participate but is supportive -and that's a good thing for both our sakes, because if she wasn't... things would go badly between us. I went through a lot of girlfriends who couldn't understand why I have to do this and why this matters. When I finally found one who didn't understand it either but supported it anyway I knew I had better hang on to her. :)

[green meanie]

I've lost more students to wives & girlfriends that complained they were spending too much time training, than any other reason.

It's amazing how many people I've met who have said their girlfriends / wives would rather they were at the bar, or bowling, or ANYTHING, besides training. I don't get it. :idunno: