is political correctness killing martial arts?

[sparks110972]

i find that as a martial artist i see a lot of changes in how techniques are done and applied not in my own art but in others(i practice a classical martial art) how do other instructors view this butchery of the arts to make everything "safer" and is it wrong? i think it is criminal and a shame on all instructors who practice political correctness. let me know

[Kensai]

Guess it depends on the art, school, instructor, and attitudes of the students therein. In my class, my sifu teaches purely incapacitating strikes, to throat, groin, face/nose/jaw etc. No locks to "disable", or immobilise an attacker. So in that sense, no, it isn't watered down. However, there are occasions when perhaps that kind of attitude is unrequired, and a different set of responses are required.

I think the MA, be they TMA, MMA, CMA, FMA, or YMCA, it matters not. They predate the concept of PC'ness, and will certainly outlive it. Exactly how, is another matter, there's no reading the future regardless of what some will tell you. Just my view.

[Andrew Green]

There's lots of PC stuff going around. "All arts are equal", "It's not the art it's the artist" being a very common one. Which is nonsense.

Ok, maybe no single art is the best, and it is hard to draw comparrisons, unless you give a goal.

Making things "safer" is neccessary. Safer the better, otherwise you get injuries and possibly lawsuits, both of which impede good training.

Watering down to the extreme, well, thats fine too, providing there is some honesty about what is being done. I can't start a touch football team and claim to be training them for the pro-leagues. But lots of people want/prefer the "softer" method, and thats fine. Let them do it.

PC so often seems to be a stand in word for "misleading" and that I don't buy. Do whatever you want, teach whatever you want, just be honest about what you are teaching, no claiming "too deadly, so no sparring" no claiming "all arts are equal, are invented kata will take you to the top of the UFC if you are a good enough athlete and train hard enough."

[matt.m]

I know what you are talking about. It makes me want to yak personally. I spent 5 yrs. in the Marines. If I learned one thing is this: In a fight there are no rules and people really do want to hurt you.

My GM teaches no nonsense kind of approach. Thank god for the small blessings.

[tshadowchaser]

Thread moved to the General Martial Arts area

I think it will generate more posts here

sheldon bedell
mt mod

[JBrainard]

To answer the original question, not in my experience. It obviously depends on the style, but more so I believe it depends on the teacher. I once was taking a competition geared wing chun class but the teacher was also a 2nd? degree black belt in one of those chinese "war arts." So when questions about self defence came up, he would hep us to ways to really f up an attacker. How to rupture someone's bladder was my fave.

[beau_safken]

Depends on your school and teacher...Well that pretty much sums it up.

Mcdojo's are more PC because they are daycare centers
Real schools...not so much...

[tradrockrat]

Well I'm not sure what is meant by PC, but if you mean altering techniques to make them less lethal, then yes I hate that because it shows an ignorance of the art. There are ALWAYS non-lethal techniques available, even if it just means altering your intended target. It shows a huge lack of trust in your students to leave out these aspects of martial training. Obviously, while training you try not to kill your partner...it is obvious, isn't it????

If you mean - as Andrew Green states - the tendency to say all things are equal - I think that is kind of silly as well, but I for one honestly believe that there is a specific MA out there for everyone and that you will be better at that art than at any others. I also believe that the person really does make the art effective, though I wholeheartedly agree that you need to qualify that statement with what exactly it is effective in. If you're going to compete in the olympics in TKD, you might not want to train with me. ;)

[Fluffy]

It gets worse and worse every year.

[tshadowchaser]

I have never been politicly correct so i don't think it has changed how I teach

Trying to keep the school open and making money may have changed my views on teaching kids but when i deal with adults I teach the way i want and they can stay or go depending on how they feel about what I say and teach

[Xue Sheng]

is political correctness killing martial arts?

mmmmmmmmmmmmm could be.

[Andy Moynihan]

Yes. Just the same as it's destroying everything else it touches.

[hongkongfooey]

Yes. Just the same as it's destroying everything else it touches.

Give that man a cigar. Just don't smoke it! The PC police will get ya!

[Flying Crane]

I'm not so sure I would call it "Political Correctness". I do think that the buisness side of martial arts can often be detrimental to the arts. I have a lot of respect for you school owners who try really hard to maintain the integrity in your training and teaching, while running a commercial school. I understand it's a difficult balance to walk, and a lot of places don't do a good job with this and that is what I think is a problem.

I also think there are a lot of ego problems in the martial arts that creates a lot of problems. Ego maniacs who need to be a grandmaster, and need to create a "new" style and be soke, and whatnot. I think it is all about the need for power and control over others, which really boils down to money and business run amok.

In my opinion, many of the problems and issues being cited by the others here really come back to these couple of points.

[Xue Sheng]

I'm not so sure I would call it "Political Correctness". I do think that the buisness side of martial arts can often be detrimental to the arts. I have a lot of respect for you school owners who try really hard to maintain the integrity in your training and teaching, while running a commercial school. I understand it's a difficult balance to walk, and a lot of places don't do a good job with this and that is what I think is a problem.

I also think there are a lot of ego problems in the martial arts that creates a lot of problems. Ego maniacs who need to be a grandmaster, and need to create a "new" style and be soke, and whatnot. I think it is all about the need for power and control over others, which really boils down to money and business run amok.

In my opinion, many of the problems and issues being cited by the others here really come back to these couple of points.

Good points.

Seeing as I lost a good Tai Chi school to both of these you would have think I wouls have mentioned it here.

[Brandon Fisher]

My old instructor would not allow me to say or do certain things to the point of not allowing me to tell a black belt they were wrong and rip them when they told me I taught them wrong.

Now that I am no longer under his so-called guidance I have been direct again and things are working out much better.

[Silverwing]

Political correctness in the martial arts and you...

When training in the martial arts you must keep in mind that when the arts were first formed they existed for war. Since the world we live in today is peaceful and there is no war we do not need to learn about real fighting. Instead you will learn punches and kicks with the purpose of looking really cool, but be careful, you may find an instructor who teaches you to punch and kick with the purpose of striking another person. This type of instructor is probably an anarchist who wants to overthrow the duly elected/enforced and competent government of your country...


That being said... yes. Maybe not killing, but hampering at the very least.

[Don Roley]

I don't know if this qualifies as PC, but the whole attitude of coddling people and being afraid of hurting their feelings is something that makes me want to teach only in secret when I return to America.

Where I am, the teacher coming over to you and telling you that you are doing something wrong is a blessing. There are things you can't tell you are doing wrong. So for the teacher to show you them instead of patting you on the back and letting you stay ignorant of your problems is a favor.

And sometimes they need to push you. When you think you are doing fine, but they show you that you are not and tell you that you will never get anywhere unless you change, that is a blessing. But I am sure that Tommy's mommy would scream bloody murder if you tried doing this with her little angel.

Oh, and the idea that an art has to be 'accessable' to everyone. No, I only want certain types of students. I don't care how much someone wants to study under me in what I know- if I don't think they would make a good student I don't want to waste my time on them. But that would probably get me sued for discrimination back in the states. Hence my considering only teaching in secret when I move back.

[Silverwing]

Unlike my last comment this one is absolutely satire free:
I have to say I agree with that absolutely. My instructor tonight at class told us that he wishes he could still hit us with a training stick for having the wrong stance. That would make training so much... I don't want to say easier but that's the best I can come up with. Sadly YMCAs don't allow that...

[Dark]

i find that as a martial artist i see a lot of changes in how techniques are done and applied not in my own art but in others(i practice a classical martial art) how do other instructors view this butchery of the arts to make everything "safer" and is it wrong? i think it is criminal and a shame on all instructors who practice political correctness. let me know

Political correctness is a fancy way for saying something I really can't on the forum, say I'll leave it a *meow* ;) There is a saying "Don't mistake kindness for weakness..." that applies in two ways for martial artists. The first is simply that a gentle hand can easily be mistaken for a weak touch.

In the exact opposite of above statement I guess "Don't mistake weakness for kindness..." Too much coddling and softness can be a sign of lack of over all skill and ability. Ultimately its all up to the individual, but as with most "tough guys" if they talk big and act small its weakness.

Now my personal opinion is that the PC movement has ruined the general society, because god forbid you hurt someone's feelings and tell them the truth...

[pstarr]

There's certainly nothing wrong with maintain a high level of safety but I ensure that the students learn the art fully and correctly. As for being politically correct, I've never been any good at it-

[Don Roley]

Now my personal opinion is that the PC movement has ruined the general society, because god forbid you hurt someone's feelings and tell them the truth...

If you think that people should be able to tell the truth, then you should have no problem with me telling you that you wasted a lot of your time in a fake art.

I looked at your profile and some of your posts. You claim to have studied a form of ninjutsu that is not know in Japan as an existing school.

It would be PC of me to remain silent, but I think I owe you the truth even if you don't really like it since you opened up the door with your comment above. The truth shall set you free.

Don't be ashamed. A lot of people have been fooled by incompent frauds like Ron Duncan, Ron Collins, ############, Yo Sato, Frank Dux, etc. Your teacher may have been someone that got fooled and he was just trying to do his best. But all the guys I listed are guys that talk a good fight, but do things that make other people laugh.

The way to tell if your teacher is being honest and was fooled himself is to see if there is an independent way of comfirming his own experiences. So if you go to him and ask him about his teacher, and he hesitates or does not give you a way to contact/confirm he had a teacher- then he is a fraud. If I were to ask you about something you freely claimed that happened to you and you could not give me a way of confirming it on my own, then I would know that you were a fraud. That is the best way to determine if a teacher is trying to be honest or not- find out if the stuff they make references to without prompting can be confirmed on your own without having to take their word for it.

Of course, if they need to make frequent mention of what they know and how much experiences they have with real violence, then you pretty much know they are frauds. Some people do have experience and will bring it up when it really is needed. But the frauds try to work it into every conversation they can. Rather pathetic and proof that they are just sad little people that need to look tough to others because deep down they know they are cowards and don't know much.

And frauds and PC are one thing that is helping destroy the arts. When someone is a fraud, I will say they are a fraud. I won't go looking for a fraud, but when one comes bouncing across my cave- you can't blame me for pointing out the problems with their stories. But boy do they complain and try to get PC about how we should not judge others, etc.

And yeah, there is an element of truth to that idea. I have seen boards devoted supposably towards exposing frauds that are more like a bunch of guys desperatly trying to tear down anything that is not like what they do. One person put it best when he said that some people go out of their way to find something bad to try to convince themselves that they do something good. I know of a few people that are frauds themselves but found the best way to get accepted and liked was to become fraud busters themselves.

But if someone comes into a forum making claims, then we should be able to say that they are spouting lies. Bob Hubbard recently said that at martialtalk we have always had the ability to call someone on their claims. That is not the same as talking about someone who has never made claims here on martialtalk. But if someone makes claims, then we should be able to question them. But some PC boards don't allow that.

Not all. A few weeks ago one big fraud by the name of Ron Collins came into Budoseek trying to impress folks with his claims. Among some of the things he has claimed was being in Force Recon. The owners and moderators of Budoseek are composed mainly of ex- and current USMC folks. As you can imagine- he was humiliated and everyone laughed at the way he was exposed. Frauds like that are not too bright, and everyone I have listed have proven to be almost completely unskilled in the martial arts.

But there are some folks that try to shut down the truth with PC talk of not talking about 'politics' (there is nothing political about someone lying or pointing it out) or comments like some here have repeated about all arts being the same.

If we can't tell the bad from the good due to some fear of being seen as judgemental, then there really is not much advantage to being one of the good ones.

[Dark]

If we can't tell the bad from the good due to some fear of being seen as judgemental, then there really is not much advantage to being one of the good ones.

Never thought being one of the good guys ment you had to prove the :bad guys" where actually bad to poeple. As for the "frauds" as you put it and my art being one of them, I've used it and it works thats real enough for me. Professor Duncan is exteremely skilled at what he does, regaudless if you wonna argue lineage or not.

Funakoshi and even Kano were considered frauds to may in thier time, now they are legends. Even Bruce Lee was caled a fake when he first started out. I always believed those who where "authentic" tend to pass the old test of time, perhaps we will see with these people you are talking about.

Also seeing as their is only so many applications for any given techniques based on the aws of physics how do you get that basically its not all the same? I mean the packaging is gonna always be different, ninja suit, karate gi, sweating guy in spandex shorts, but the core priniples is always the same.

[Don Roley]

Never thought being one of the good guys ment you had to prove the :bad guys" where actually bad to poeple. As for the "frauds" as you put it and my art being one of them, I've used it and it works thats real enough for me. Professor Duncan is exteremely skilled at what he does, regaudless if you wonna argue lineage or not.

Funakoshi and even Kano were considered frauds to may in thier time, now they are legends. Even Bruce Lee was caled a fake when he first started out. I always believed those who where "authentic" tend to pass the old test of time, perhaps we will see with these people you are talking about.

Also seeing as their is only so many applications for any given techniques based on the aws of physics how do you get that basically its not all the same? I mean the packaging is gonna always be different, ninja suit, karate gi, sweating guy in spandex shorts, but the core priniples is always the same.

You see, now you are being politically correct.

No one said Kano, Funakoshi, etc lied about their personal training history. But all the ninja frauds I listed have. And Duncan is just funny without meaning to be. Take a look at what people with no connection to ninja 'politics' have to say about him.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31499

You talked about telling the truth, and when I tell you some you seem to get offended and a little snippy. You can see why the world is going PC.

And I somehow get the sinking feeling that if I ask for proof to your statements that you have used the art I will not get something I can check on my own. Remember what I said about that?

As for the idea that all arts are the same, whether it be in a keikogi or spandex shorts- I can kind of tell that you do not have much experiences in martial arts. (The fact that you think Duncan is good is also a good clue.) The fundemental differences in arts like Kali, Systema, jujutsu and others is increadible if you have the experiences to understand them. Trust me, if you get some experience you will change your tune. I sound like you when I talk about wine. To me there is just red, white and rose and I can't tell a Riesling from a Pinor. But to the folks that know wine there is a hell of a lot of differences between them, as well as different vinters, etc. For wine I really don't care enough to try to learn. But for martial arts, I kind have tried to make it a point to see what is going on between different arts.

[MJS]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation on topic..

-Mike Slosek
-MT Super Moderator-

[jks9199]

Never thought being one of the good guys ment you had to prove the :bad guys" where actually bad to poeple. As for the "frauds" as you put it and my art being one of them, I've used it and it works thats real enough for me. Professor Duncan is exteremely skilled at what he does, regaudless if you wonna argue lineage or not.

Funakoshi and even Kano were considered frauds to may in thier time, now they are legends. Even Bruce Lee was caled a fake when he first started out. I always believed those who where "authentic" tend to pass the old test of time, perhaps we will see with these people you are talking about.

Also seeing as their is only so many applications for any given techniques based on the aws of physics how do you get that basically its not all the same? I mean the packaging is gonna always be different, ninja suit, karate gi, sweating guy in spandex shorts, but the core priniples is always the same.
I'm curious; who accused Funakoshi of being a fraud?

There were certainly people upset with him giving into government demands to get a job at one point in his life, and suggesting that he was a traitor to his class. That's definitely a form of political correctness -- which he rebelled against, or caved on, depending on your point of view.

And there were people who considered him a traitor or felt he'd betrayed them by teaching karate so openly.

I'm sure there were Japanese who felt whatever he had to teach was inadequate and less than the traditional Japanese arts, as well.

But I'm not personally aware of any accusation that he was a fraud.

It's easy to lob accusations at people, especially under a guise of being politically correct. "You're too mean when you teach people." "That guy is a misogynist, and sexist!" "I didn't think they'd really HIT me!" These are all things I've heard said... Many of them were excuses justifying poor performance or poor attitudes in training.

[Dark]

Don, I'm not being "snippy" I could careless about the "ninja-wars" over who is what or did this. I learned ninjitsu/ninjutsu posiby from one of those "fake-schools" but I have used what I learned in the military (Army Infantry) and my life (bouncing, playing rent-a-piggy and just fighting in general), it works thats what makes me happy.

All the this is a fraud and this person can't prove their lineage stuff just seems like mud-slinging politics and girlish-cat fighting. As far as my martial arts experience, you're right I don't know as much as I should or very could given the right amount of training, but the laws of physicals are the same either way it doesn't matter what the prinicples are packaged under they are the same principles, when you find a way to alter the laws of physics let me know...

jsk,

I'd have to look it up to get the names, but several Okinawan karate-masters had called Funakoshi a fake and even said he never completed his karate training. The arguement wasn't so much that he didn't have training but that he didn't have enough training to pass himself off as a master of the art an was unfit to teach. My personal opinon is different but well as I pointed out with the ninjitsu stuff above, there is the test of time...

Otherwise I completely agree with you on the PC thing...

[Don Roley]

All the this is a fraud and this person can't prove their lineage stuff just seems like mud-slinging politics and girlish-cat fighting.

That is the politically correct way of stateing things. In the non- PC world, a man backs up what he says with proof. For example, since you have gone out of your way to make mention of your military and personal experience, you would have to now back up what you say with proof. I am sure you could not if I asked, so let us drop that subject and just say that your provable experience is nil.

The problem I have is with people saying that all arts are the same, frauds or legitimate. "We should not judge since folks like Funakoshi were also called frauds." What rubbish! If someone lies about being trained in someone, or having experienced something like elite military units, Kumite competitions, CIA, etc, then they should be shown to be lying. If they make a point of mentioning something, then back down from backing it up, then they are lying.

And I dislike the PC type movement to stop discussion about frauds whenever they pop around to start talking about themselves. Going out of your way to hunt down frauds like Frank Dux, Ron Collins, Yo Sato, etc is a bit overboard. But when they (or their students) pop around to start the ego fest, I don't like it when some boards say we can't hold them accountable for what they claim in the name of harmony.

[Dark]

That is the politically correct way of stateing things. In the non- PC world, a man backs up what he says with proof. For example, since you have gone out of your way to make mention of your military and personal experience, you would have to now back up what you say with proof. I am sure you could not if I asked, so let us drop that subject and just say that your provable experience is nil.

I never went out of my way to mention my military experense, I simply said I had it. From personal expereience I've found a large degree of martial artists do or more accurately a large degree of soldiers gain martial arts training while in the service of their country.

BTW, while your asking for proof have you considered that instead of being arguementative and such, that you have in no way offered to explain or coherently disagree on any grounds other then "I haven't posted proof on a message board" as grounds to be against anything that I've said? Is rational thought or at least adult discussion even possible?

Never mind, your right "I have no proof" and you win...

[Don Roley]

Dark,
The mods told us to stay on topic. You worked a way to mention your claims of being in the military, etc but won't back it up. But you are certainly eager to argue that you have some experience. I no longer believe you and think you should let the matter drop like the mods told us to.

[Don Roley]

While we are on the subject- for now, there is one more PC thing that bugs me.

There seems to be two different ideas that will not mesh with each other. Both are PC in their own ways.

On one side is the idea that "as long as I can beat someone up, who cares about anything else?"

On the other is the idea that martial arts that deal with violence are uncivalized things only for brutes.

Neither side really will accept the other. And both sides are idiots as far as I am concerned.

Hey, I want to be able to defend myself with my art. But I want more than just that. Some people show up to class to learn how to defend themselves, and stay for what they find in martial arts. Among these things are ideals such as honesty, integrity and becoming a better person.

Hey, there are some folks that do that sort of thing as their exclusive purpose of training. I will respect their right to train as they want. But it does not thrill me when they try to look down their noses at the way I practice drawing and opening a knife.

And the guys that don't care if a teacher is a liar or anything other than whether they can beat up other folks- they need help.

[profesormental]

Greetings!

"Political correctness" seems to me to be the attempt to put things in a way that is at least innofensive for everyone (or most people)...

Which in itself is like trying to fit everyone in the same box.

Doing that in Martial Training means that most of the "Martial" would have to be waterd down.

When a prominent Master was asked "How long does it take for the average person to earn a Black Belt?"; the Master answered "An average person cannot earn a Black Belt."

Being PC makes a training available to many more people... like "cardio kickboxing"... yet you put them in a sparring match with kickboxers that have trained the same amount of time and they will destroy the cardio kickboxers...

People look for different things in their trainings.

If it is made clear that what they are doing created fitness, but not Martial ability, then I have no problem for them to keep on training...

yet if they think that what they are training in is Martial, and they are told they are getting Martial skills, and they are getting a Cardio kickboxing like training, then I have a problem with that,

since that action can put lives in danger, and people are not getting what they pay for, leading to bad impressions of dedicated intelligent martial skills trainers.

Also, to effectively train people, several non PC ways of presenting the information are necessary... I've really seen the difference between corteously demonstrating or saying to my student to do something...

and boping them so they feel it while they try full force to stop me, and commanding them enfatically to do as I say immediately.

It makes a big difference.

Some people if treated like that, go away. Which mostly means they really didn't want the training. Their loss, yet they won't waste my time and I will now invest more time on people that really want what I have to offer.

Learning occurs when you are pushed or pulled out of you comfort zone, so you have to think or take the first thing that is told to you that makes sense as truth...

Efficient teaching hardly occurs by leaving the student in their comfort zone (this also has to do with Mental State Dependent Learning).

PC language and actions are by default designed to leave people in their comfort zones.

Which really is not conductive for the mental state in which fighting occurs.

So, for most people should be qualified for the trainings that they recieve... if not they will leave, since they are not getting what they want...

real skills, or the fantasy of real skills given by PC training.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado

[Dark]

Political correctness has one point; it is seposed to be a buffer, a way of saying things "nicely" being "nice" does not save you from being an idiot. Take the major area where political correctness in come the subject of racism, so may people are worried about stepping on someone's toes because of race/religion/nationality etc. The reality is nothing will change or patch the truth that humans are all idiots in some form or the orther and skipping around an issue or changing the semantics involved doesn't change the over all meaning behind them.

[Rook]

While we are on the subject- for now, there is one more PC thing that bugs me.

There seems to be two different ideas that will not mesh with each other. Both are PC in their own ways.

On one side is the idea that "as long as I can beat someone up, who cares about anything else?"

On the other is the idea that martial arts that deal with violence are uncivalized things only for brutes.

Neither side really will accept the other. And both sides are idiots as far as I am concerned.

You know, I see alot more of people attacking those who CLAIM loudly to be able to do both but don't really support it.

Most of the MMA types are content to leave arts that call themselves cultural rather than go around with statements that then fail to back up. The targets for the heaviest mockery generally bring it on themselves and are ussually not attacked just by the "fighting only" arts but by those who simply see the fatal flaws in their assertions or logic.

Likewise with styles that seen they say they are part of some ancient historical lineage and then utterly fail to provide any evidence to support their claims. Even the "ancient samurai art" and "koryu nuts/snobs" largely leave modernists alone when they don't claim to be anything that they aren't.


Hey, I want to be able to defend myself with my art. But I want more than just that. Some people show up to class to learn how to defend themselves, and stay for what they find in martial arts. Among these things are ideals such as honesty, integrity and becoming a better person.

I worry every time I read things like this. Every time people start talking about personal development, all arts start sounding equal and the real political correctness begins in earnest. I think we would be better off if, instead of using descriptions like becoming a better person, if we simply stuck to gaining knowledge or skill or solid training and left developing better people to the people themselves and the clergy.


Hey, there are some folks that do that sort of thing as their exclusive purpose of training. I will respect their right to train as they want. But it does not thrill me when they try to look down their noses at the way I practice drawing and opening a knife.

Some arts draw people with ethical principles that might be opposed to that. I resent that sort of elitism on the internet too, although I do not carry a weapon.


And the guys that don't care if a teacher is a liar or anything other than whether they can beat up other folks- they need help.

Hmm. Being truthful and being an effective fighter are not one in the same by a long shot. There are a great many honest and decent people who cannot fight their way out of a wet paper bag, and there are some very dishonest people who most would not wish to confront - heck just look at Counte Dante.

[Dark]

Well I agree with allot of what Rook has said, the only comment I really want to make it on the martial arts to become a better person stuff. I agree martial arts don't make you a better person, but the hard work does. You don't need MAs for hard work you can get that from Job Corps, Schooling or any physical sport.

[Flatlander]

In my class, my sifu teaches purely incapacitating strikes, to throat, groin, face/nose/jaw etc. No locks to "disable", or immobilise an attacker. So in that sense, no, it isn't watered down. However, there are occasions when perhaps that kind of attitude is unrequired, and a different set of responses are required.Yes. And in that regard, I'd have to suggest that teaching only incapacitating strikes and eliminating completely "locks to 'disable' or immobilize an attacker" is missing out on a significant portion of the use of force continuum, thereby exposing students to the risk of employing unreasonable force. One's training ought keep up with the law, and all that. As such, I'd suggest that some manner of cross training would be a good idea.

[Don Roley]

You know, I see alot more of people attacking those who CLAIM loudly to be able to do both but don't really support it.

Most of the MMA types are content to leave arts that call themselves cultural rather than go around with statements that then fail to back up. The targets for the heaviest mockery generally bring it on themselves and are ussually not attacked just by the "fighting only" arts but by those who simply see the fatal flaws in their assertions or logic.

That has not been my observation. I am working from a definition of political correctness as an inability to accept any other sort of thinking or respect those that do something other than what you do. And there are several types that will attack you if you do something other than what they do. My style does not do solo forms. But I have seen arts that do solo forms and call themselves self defense arts attacked and their training methods made fun of by those that claim to know The Truthtm about self defense.

If you do not do what certain folks do such as learning how to make a person submit or spar, then you are attacked and mocked. There is no acceptance that an art could have the same goal, and yet do things not in the way others do them. If you practice with a sword part of the time, do solo forms, don't do certain things or anything like that, then you are attacked if you dare say you practice to keep yourself safe


I worry every time I read things like this. Every time people start talking about personal development, all arts start sounding equal and the real political correctness begins in earnest. I think we would be better off if, instead of using descriptions like becoming a better person, if we simply stuck to gaining knowledge or skill or solid training and left developing better people to the people themselves and the clergy.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. But I have had to deal with a lot of folks from fraudulant arts that clearly knew that their teacher was lying, but did not care since they were getting some sort of status out of it. There are threads over at e-budo about James Lamont, convicted of raping underaged students of him that should be read. The defenders of these types all seem to say that the evil that their teacher does in no way relates to what they do and continue to support and run defense for people that should be put up against a wall and shot. I think that martial arts should be devoted to being able to go home sage as well as making you a person that can be trusted with those skills. I disagree with your view and will state that. But I won't try to shut you up. That would be a PC type of thing in my opinion.

[Brandon Fisher]

I have no patience or sympathy for someone who trashes another person because of the martial art they practice. I don't have patience for anyone that hurts a student intentionally in anyway thats abuse not training. Anyone who molests or rapes a student needs to find out how powerful true martial arts techniques really are.

[Kensai]

Yes. And in that regard, I'd have to suggest that teaching only incapacitating strikes and eliminating completely "locks to 'disable' or immobilize an attacker" is missing out on a significant portion of the use of force continuum, thereby exposing students to the risk of employing unreasonable force. One's training ought keep up with the law, and all that. As such, I'd suggest that some manner of cross training would be a good idea.

It was actually a point to emphasise that there had been no "watering down" of the art to suit the current times/cultural beliefs. Perhaps what I should have added is that he also mentions that it is our discretion as to whether or not we use such a technique in any given scenario. After all, if we're attacked in the street (tm) he's not likely to be there to make that call for us, however, if my "call" is such that I believe my life to be in mortal danger, I'd rather do an art that teaches/utilises instant takedowns, as opposed to scoring points, or looking pretty. Keeping up with the law is great, but to remain purely within the confines of it in a situation that's way outside of it, is, in my "opinion" folly.

As it happens, I do cross train, I've recently started training in Aikido. I like the SD aspects of it, and the body mechanics and knife techniques.

As for PC, I prefer cultural diplomacy, and an old fashioned couple of words, simply called "common sense". I think political correctness has served its purpose and is now more of a hindrance.

[Devin]

Making the arts "safer" isn't a bad thing if done in moderation. Safer means less injuries in the training hall, which means less sidelined partners, which means better training.

However, martial arts have included lethal techniques since they were first created. For hundreds of years they have been practiced in relative safty (there will always be some risk), so I see no reason to not teach something just because its dangerous. Of course you won't try and crush your partener's windpipe during practice, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be taught how to do it.

Of course, we don't live in feudal Asia, and we don't have to worry about the things that they did. So to not change certain aspects of the art to make them more viable in today's world would be just as bad as watering down the art. Joint locks and immobilizations are needed in today's society with its laws governing reasonable force. To teach only stuff that maims or kills would not be a good thing. A martial artist must be able to defend themselves with all levels of force.

Today self-defense arts must be practiced as safely as reasonably possible, while incorperating techniques ranging from "evade the attacks" all the way to lethal force.

Sorry for the rambling post.

[Kensai]

Making the arts "safer" isn't a bad thing if done in moderation. Safer means less injuries in the training hall, which means less sidelined partners, which means better training.

However, martial arts have included lethal techniques since they were first created. For hundreds of years they have been practiced in relative safty (there will always be some risk), so I see no reason to not teach something just because its dangerous. Of course you won't try and crush your partener's windpipe during practice, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be taught how to do it.

Of course, we don't live in feudal Asia, and we don't have to worry about the things that they did. So to not change certain aspects of the art to make them more viable in today's world would be just as bad as watering down the art. Joint locks and immobilizations are needed in today's society with its laws governing reasonable force. To teach only stuff that maims or kills would not be a good thing. A martial artist must be able to defend themselves with all levels of force.

Today self-defense arts must be practiced as safely as reasonably possible, while incorperating techniques ranging from "evade the attacks" all the way to lethal force.

Sorry for the rambling post.

Quite, it's possibly worse now in some areas of the world. I've never said DON'T learn imobilising techniques. I'm also not saying that instant take-down shots are the ONLY thing we're taught, merely that they are. The onus is on YOU to decide as and when to use them, based on the circumstances at the time. Imobilising techniques are all well and good (if you can get them to work) I think they have their place, but I wouldn't rely solely on those kind of techniques if I was on my own.

If someone attacks me, I'm not gonna use an arm-lock, wrist-lock etc and wait around while the police to get there, "if" they get there. Most people get into trouble as a result of altercations that they have as a result of what they say to the police afterwards. Somebody attacks you? Flatten them, then leave. Quickly. We're all likely to disagree on this, some will say use a "measured" response, some will say "use ANY response necessary to get the job done". I fall somewhere in the middle.

[Rook]

That has not been my observation. I am working from a definition of political correctness as an inability to accept any other sort of thinking or respect those that do something other than what you do. And there are several types that will attack you if you do something other than what they do. My style does not do solo forms. But I have seen arts that do solo forms and call themselves self defense arts attacked and their training methods made fun of by those that claim to know The Truthtm about self defense.

I see that too. However, one of the things that I notice more and more of the times are people saying things along the lines of "our kata allow us to practice far more effective techniques than people who practice MERE SPORT" and thus pique the interest of sports fighters who ask to have their "more effective non-sport" techniques demonstrated on them or their compatriots in a live fight/sparring session.

I rarely see, although there are exceptions, people like Dr. Yang who make statements like "if you want quick self defense learn kickboxing" mauled on the internet by MMA people or their sypathizers/fans.


If you do not do what certain folks do such as learning how to make a person submit or spar, then you are attacked and mocked. There is no acceptance that an art could have the same goal, and yet do things not in the way others do them.

The worry and concern is that different methods don't necessarily have equal validity. Just as there are a great many people claiming to inherit systems from Japan and China who did nothing of the sort, there are a great many people saying they are teaching self-defense who are doing nothing of the sort. Even then, they are largely left be until they start making statements like the ones I paraphrased above.


If you practice with a sword part of the time, do solo forms, don't do certain things or anything like that, then you are attacked if you dare say you practice to keep yourself safe.

It has been the experiance of alot of these people that certain training methods correlate pretty well with poor performance in recorded fights. There are obviously many disputes about training methods and system goals. Again though, I see alot more jumping on people who say kata is as good/better than say, sparring than people who simply include it as one part of a system and don't make claims about it that they don't seem to support.


You are of course entitled to your opinion. But I have had to deal with a lot of folks from fraudulant arts that clearly knew that their teacher was lying, but did not care since they were getting some sort of status out of it. There are threads over at e-budo about James Lamont, convicted of raping underaged students of him that should be read. The defenders of these types all seem to say that the evil that their teacher does in no way relates to what they do and continue to support and run defense for people that should be put up against a wall and shot. I think that martial arts should be devoted to being able to go home sage as well as making you a person that can be trusted with those skills. I disagree with your view and will state that. But I won't try to shut you up. That would be a PC type of thing in my opinion.

I wouldn't want to learn from such a teacher and behavior of this sort would make me question much of what they did. However, there were a great many unpleasant people who founded or perpetuated systems that endure to this day, and I don't necessarily think that their personal behavior makes the system itself ineffective.

For instance, if they ever prove Takeda killed some of the people he said he did but was never prosecuted for, I very much doubt there will be some sort of mass exodus from Daito Ryu, nor will people's opinions of aikido change markedly.

[Rook]

I think that I should expand on the end of my last statement, as when I am reading the statement it came out differently than I wanted it to.

One of the things that I have noticed one martial arts boards is the tendancy to group good people with good martial arts and morally bad people with ineffective martial arts. I touched on this already.

The flip side to the morally bankrupt who can fight well is the respect accorded to the morally upstanding who clearly cannot fight for beans. Some posters on various sites have been pretty badly responded to after they questioned the efficacy of "self defense" techniques taught in free martial arts classes to the elderly and the students of inner city schools. We hear statements like "well at least he's giving back to the community" which entirely miss the point of being effective or not. There is a certian political correctness about the need not to criticise such people or their programs.

This sort of political correctness and need not to question good people can very quickly water down arts, as respected fighting systems become XMA routines done for the self esteem of the participants and simultaneously touted as excellent street self defense.

[Brother John]

Not sure that THAT is what "Political correctness" is.
I call it.....
wattering things down.

Political correctness ruins (kills) EVERYTHING it touches!!!


Your Brother
John

[Devin]

Quite, it's possibly worse now in some areas of the world. I've never said DON'T learn imobilising techniques. I'm also not saying that instant take-down shots are the ONLY thing we're taught, merely that they are. The onus is on YOU to decide as and when to use them, based on the circumstances at the time. Imobilising techniques are all well and good (if you can get them to work) I think they have their place, but I wouldn't rely solely on those kind of techniques if I was on my own.

If someone attacks me, I'm not gonna use an arm-lock, wrist-lock etc and wait around while the police to get there, "if" they get there. Most people get into trouble as a result of altercations that they have as a result of what they say to the police afterwards. Somebody attacks you? Flatten them, then leave. Quickly. We're all likely to disagree on this, some will say use a "measured" response, some will say "use ANY response necessary to get the job done". I fall somewhere in the middle.
I wasn't critizing anything you said in your previous posts. I agree that 95% of the time, pinning your attacker is a very bad move. It takes two hands to pin him, and two hands and feet to defend yourself from his buddy coming up behind you ;).

When I was typing about changing the arts to reflect today's reality I was thinking about Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu, and how aikido has adapted the techniques so its easier for you to defend yourself without necessarily maiming the attacker.

After all, better to bounce someone's head off the ground and run away than to break someone's neck, bounce their head off the ground, and run away.

[Rook]

Not sure that THAT is what "Political correctness" is.
I call it.....
wattering things down.

Political correctness ruins (kills) EVERYTHING it touches!!!


Your Brother
John

I think what the people do is water things down. The political correctness comes in when people feel it is inappropriate to question certain parts of the watering down process.

We publically criticize many types of commercial schools, but restrain criticism of the some teachers and methods. This, I feel, is a form of the same sort of politically correct thought that keeps us from publically questioning other, more public issues in non-martial arts settings.

[Kensai]

I wasn't critizing anything you said in your previous posts. I agree that 95% of the time, pinning your attacker is a very bad move. It takes two hands to pin him, and two hands and feet to defend yourself from his buddy coming up behind you ;).

When I was typing about changing the arts to reflect today's reality I was thinking about Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu, and how aikido has adapted the techniques so its easier for you to defend yourself without necessarily maiming the attacker.

After all, better to bounce someone's head off the ground and run away than to break someone's neck, bounce their head off the ground, and run away.

:asian:
Forgive me, I wasn't criticising you either, perhaps we're both being too PC. ;) Just think that locks, although they have their place, shouldn't be the sole arsenal in an individuals repetoire.

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Just think that locks, although they have their place, shouldn't be the sole arsenal in an individuals repetoire.

Agreed.

[Don Roley]

The worry and concern is that different methods don't necessarily have equal validity. Just as there are a great many people claiming to inherit systems from Japan and China who did nothing of the sort, there are a great many people saying they are teaching self-defense who are doing nothing of the sort. Even then, they are largely left be until they start making statements like the ones I paraphrased above.

That is part of the problem. The idea that somehow someone is an expert in what goes on in a real fight and anyone who does anything even a little different is wrong is the same mindset as the PC folks.

Determining if someone lied or not about training they got is fairly simple. If they can't prove even that they had a teacher, they are not worth considering as anything other than a fraud. But unless someone has a whole lot of encounters against knives, multiple attackers and what have you, then how on earth can they say that doing kata won't help you with self defense or learning to use a sword is useless?

Political Correctness is not about reserving judgement. It is the idea that one sort of thinking is 'correct' and thus it can't be judged, but other ways of thinking and doing things don't even have to be listened to. A few weeks ago I saw the South Park episode with the Tolerance Museum where as soon as they get out the adults start giving a smoker hell.

So it is the idea that one side can come in to another forum, dojo or what have you and start telling people The Truthtm instead of respecting them, but people who come into those same forums and make claims of being Koga ninja are off limits.

Honestly, I am aware of boards that organize invasions of other boards. Just because the practicioners on these boards do things differently. One post that stands out in my mind is one by someone saying they were going to sign up pretending to be an aikidoka and post for a while about how they love the art, only to post how they were shown that the art is useless later on.

That is the same lack of respect for others, but demanding of respect for themselves, the I see in the PC movement.

Of course, unless I am really wrong about your charecter that is not your way of doing things, nor the way people you would associate with do things. But they are out there.