Triggered Salute (Front- Right Hand Direct Push)
1. An attacker at 12 o'clock pushes your left shoulder with their right hand.

2. Immediately and simultaneously turn your body counter-clockwise, thus riding the force of the push and using your attacker's force, borrowed force. As you do this, step your right foot into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you pin their right hand with your left and simultaneously execute a right palm strike to your attacker's chin. Note: your right step may also buckle your attacker's knee.

3. Frictionally slide your right arm down your attacker's right arm, making the shape of a crane with your hand. Note: This should hook your attacker's right arm down towards 5:30 and end in an anchored elbow.

4. Immediately execute a right inward elbow to your attacker's right solar plexus.

5. Follow through and execute a right outward elbow strike to your floating ribs.

6. Using residual torque, follow through with a right backfist to your attacker's floating ribs or kidney. Follow through and cock your right hand at your right hip.

7. Execute a right vertical back knuckle strike to your attacker's chin.

8. Cross out towards 7:30.

Hi

Long time since Iv'e seen that (20 yrs), how about Squeezing The Pach next?

Stay away from my peach!
:mst:

So is this generally how everyone does triggered salute? Anything different?
Mace

I like to use a crane hook sometimes to break the elbow.

:boing1::boing2::boing1:

Okay, here's my first problem with this tech. While stepping up to comply with your attacker, you pin the hand. But in doing so, you direct an incoming weapon toward your centerline, namely your face. It only takes a small variation and you are swallowing your own teeth. :angry:
Mace

Imagining your spine as a pole which the rest of your body pivots on. Left shoulder retreats in effect while the right arm works. The pivot closes off the center-line and allows for the arm break after the heel palm. The extention of the arm to the face with the heel palm negates the opponent's depth and height. This should remove the chance of facial damage.

The step forward is not a straight step but more of a pivot with a step. I'm not sure if I am explaining what I'm trying to say though. That help?

Hey Gou,
I think the problem is still inherent in the tech and here is why. Have you ever seen the end of Rocky 3 or the beginning of Rocky 4, where Apollo and Rocky are sparring? They're dancing around the ring and then at the same moment step in to strike, both with the same arm. This tech reminds me of that. You are using your rear hand to pin their lead hand, and if you miss their lead hand, you are trading shots to the head. Next time you work with a partner, try it. Don't tell them you are going to do anything, but run through the tech a few times and pick the speed up on it. Then, just alter your push a bit as soon as you see them move. When they comply and rotate their body, your hand will be around 8-12 inches from their face, the redirection is easy and their pin guides it. You don't want to guide anything toward your face. Hope this makes sense.
Mace

While I would never say you'd be able to roll the whole technique in a confrontation. (I never have) I think the angle you're bringing it from might be why you're having problems? (BTW, the "Rocky" image was a great way to get it across) The right hand sorta comes from your hip in an upward motion. The angle makes sure the guy does not see it and it contours up the chest to the chin so that you don't miss. You can close your eyes and still make this shot because you contour from the low angle.

Now I think that another issue may be the choice to use this technique. Remember, when we practice these techniques we always do so in the "ideal phase" where everything is perfect. Now I might be wrong but the idea is that it's a push, the motion is slower than a punch. (Why you would explode on this guy for a push is beyong me but we'll just leave that part for now:confused: ) If you knew it was coming you'd probably opt for another technique. But this sorta catches you by surprise.

So I hear what you're saying but I think if the "what if" part of your question is applied then we're moving out of the "ideal phase" and in to the area that is fun. The "How can we beat this guy to death" phase. American Kenpo is full of that. (ie - "Sword and Hammer" where the guy pulls us fom the rear to sucker punch and we crush his throat which would kill him and then we continue to hammer him in the balls? And that is yellow belt!) Overskill or overkill, the guy is either dead or in pain.

I see a lot of other arts in Kenpo. The things is that a lot of our techniques can be used as control techniques if modified. But then again we roll into the "What if."

But man, good thoughts from you! Keeping me on my toes so early in the A.M.!
:asian:

Hey Gou,
Guess somebody had to keep you on your toes today. But I want the rest of the week off.:shrug:
Next question. Isn't a push no more than an open handed punch? I could push the chest, shoulder, I've seen the face, you get my idea. And what dictates the speed of a push? Every confrontation I've seen that's involved a push has involved a fast push with a good amount of force. Trying to rock ya back on your heels. A light push is usually your buddy hitting you up for the next round of beer. :D So leaving the right hand out for a moment in Triggered Salute, why do we pin? We comply with their action which means the hand is either on you or a split second away, so is pinning it toward you the best choice of action? And even with the right hand inserted, coming from the obscure, what guarentee is there that the pin will happen. Back to the rocky movie. :)
Just my thoughts, this tech is fun to pick apart. Have you worked at all to make it a two handed tech?
Mace

I see what you're getting at. The speed of the action. However I still think that if you cancell those zones it should negate toe to toe aspect but like I said that is in the perfect world. Doesn't make it true. I also think that if you use the pin with a third arm break/destruction off the chest you might also negate the rear left fist coming your way.

I have been playing with some two-handed Kenpo as per jaybacca's instruction but I sometimes actually prefer 1 handed Kenpo because then I can hold my beer as I kick some @ss.

heh heh heh
:cheers:

:asian: Think of Triggered salute, as agrab trying to set you back on to your heels with a left punch following, By stepping in your cancelling the back up weapon of that punch. That is one possible scenrio ,also think of as a second push as you step in and cancel the backup weapon. In any case by time they give you a push you are thanking God that it was not a punch to your mouth.
We all have to remember that in kenpo we are studying motion and trying to cover all the what if's and why's. My belief is you should treat everything as if it were a punch and not let a opponent get that close. With all our techniques we have many options, go outside and cancel their width. go inside and cancel their height , it's up to you on which you choose , and it is your choice and preference and you try not to let them dictate it to you. Thank you and lets keep training sorry that some time I have to much to say




:cheers:

Hey guys,
Big guy - Don't ever apologize for a long post, its not viewed as long winded but informative, at least by me anyway. The internet is just another tool for the exchange of knowledge and you are nice enough to offer yours.
Gou - Have you learned to settle your base so as not to spill any beer while fighting one handed?? :rofl:
Mace

While you'd think that you'd have to settle your base to make sure you don't spill your beer it just isn't true. Actually settling your base makes it worse. It's the equilibrium of the beer bottle itself that you have to maintain. Hell I can run across logs like a lumberjack on a river and not spill my beer. How you ask? Maintain the base of the beer, not the holder. I'm currently working on my newest project, how to breakfall and roll and not spill your beer. Watch for my book and it's accompanying video this summer.
:eek:

Take a look here (http://lwkarate.com/movies.htm) for Master Wedlake giving this tech a whack :)

ok boys you braught it out of me,the point you are all missing is whereever the head goes the body follows so in fact when your opponent pushes you would actually pivot by rotating your shoulders to wether the push deminish the force then you would step in while pinning the hand a shooting a palm heel which is torquing by the way will cancel the back up weapon and change your opponents centerline while the pin is applied as a wrist break and while rotating will put your opponents arm in position for the crane break to the elbow with out losing continuity of motion and then>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>finish the techique.how that is suffice
later
jaybacca:eek: :eek:

Okay,
Looking back I don't think I ever gave an option after criticizing the tech. I understand the use of purposeful compliance as the push comes in, and I also know that the palm to the face that we deliver to our attacker will control their head and thus depth zones. My problem has always been that your opponents hand lands first, and if altered at all, will cause you severe pain. All it takes is a small orbit and weapon change and you will be directing the hand into your own face. So why is it that we pin it? Why not use a parry or an outward waiters hand check? This will also create the ability to use both hands immediately while staying on the inside of the arm. Thoughts?
Mace :asian:

mace you have some valid concerns,but our interpretations on this technique will vary depending on your level of experience.just to give a little idea where iam at first of all i you the pin as a wrist break while controlling the thumb(a concept from filipino ma) then some times i will short cut the tech after the last elbow and my right hand continues into a bent arm lever take or arm break from the underside .not to mention that if you are into the pressure point stuff the pin is a activation point and the palm can be the knockout. as far as redirecting to your face i don't see it happening because when the push makes contact and if you train sensitivity then you know that there will be forward pressure by that time your left hand pin should already be there but if it is not then the orbit to your face won't happen because of your opponent but because you don't deliver the tech with the proper timing and positioning.the pin negates his height be dropping your weght ie bend your knees,the shoulders rotating negate his width and the palm negates his depth.hope this helps or you can play the devils advocate and we shall continue to verbally spar haha
later
jaybacca:D :p

Devil's Advocate? Who me? hehe. You made some good points and I think we are on the same page. Here is where I'm coming from. A person I know went to do Triggered on someone in an actual situation because of an incoming push. This person was not a white belt and was a skilled kenpoist. So as he stepped up to pin and palm heel, his opponent saw his motion, closed his hand, and cracked him in the jaw, all the while being directed by the written "pin". So my problem was never the pin, it was before the pin. Why pin if it can be demonstrated that you may get hit, intentionally or unintentionally? Why not check it away from your face. And please, if you haven't, try this with an opponent and play devil's advocate yourself. Change your push midpath when you see your partner move into anything to the jawline, but please be nice. ;)
Mace

The techniques are designed only to work in the "ideal phase" and I have been told that your chances of pulling off a technique as written in a confrontation are zilch. They are there to show rules and principles of motion. If it does not work when you try to pull it off that does not mean that the technique, "does not work" but that there were other variables to be considered. In your friend's case there were other factors at play. I suppose this is why most Kenpoists need to slow down and develop their read time.

I just spent the weekend being told, "No," based on rules and principles. As I said, the techniques are for showing these ideas. I have pulled off techniques, not as written, and had them work. maybe not in entirety but parts of them.

God I wish I could open my skull and spill everything I saw for you all.

Originally posted by GouRonin

Triggered Salute (Front- Right Hand Direct Push)
1. An attacker at 12 o'clock pushes your left shoulder with their right hand.

2. Immediately and simultaneously turn your body counter-clockwise, thus riding the force of the push and using your attacker's force, borrowed force. As you do this, step your right foot into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you pin their right hand with your left and simultaneously execute a right palm strike to your attacker's chin. Note: your right step may also buckle your attacker's knee.

3. Frictionally slide your right arm down your attacker's right arm, making the shape of a crane with your hand. Note: This should hook your attacker's right arm down towards 5:30 and end in an anchored elbow.

4. Immediately execute a right inward elbow to your attacker's right solar plexus.

5. Follow through and execute a right outward elbow strike to your floating ribs.

6. Using residual torque, follow through with a right backfist to your attacker's floating ribs or kidney. Follow through and cock your right hand at your right hip.

7. Execute a right vertical back knuckle strike to your attacker's chin.

8. Cross out towards 7:30.

If that is a PUSH, it won't work. If that is an attempted push, anything is possible.

Originally posted by Doc



If that is a PUSH, it won't work. If that is an attempted push, anything is possible.


Why not if it is a PUSH?

Originally posted by Doc



If that is a PUSH, it won't work. If that is an attempted push, anything is possible.

Could you explain please ??????

Few points:

1) the initial palm heel can also be coupled with an eye strike, if desired

2) if the attack is bt someone much shorter than you, the strikes following the crane hand thing can be done to the head area (over the top of the arm) rather than to the rib area (under the arm). Although people will tell you that a shorter guy isn't going to grab a bigger guy, you'd be suprised what little people with Napolean complexes think they're capable of!

3) I wouldn't personally strike the chin with a straight punch at the end, pointy chin bone against fingers? If you ask me you'd break them if you hit it with any force. For me, I'd rather hit a squarer target such as the temple, or even better a softer target such as the nose or cheek

Ian.

There are interesting pressure points at each specific target which some may be missing due to "...aiming for the head of the fish instead of the eye." (An old Mr. Parker analogy for those interested.)

Nerve under the chin - heel palm
Radial nerve - crane hand, sword hand or cupped palm strike
Point right under the floating rib - inward elbow
Intercostals or below the floating rib on the right lateral side - outward elbow
Kidney or nerve on top of the pelvis - backfist.
Hinge of the mandible or maxilary nerve under the jaw - uppercut

Edmund Jr. did a nice job demonstrating these targets and the opponent's actual reaction to each strike, by using thumb or finger pressure to each point. It was also nice seeing how long it took the body to react and create or acquire the next target at the correct range.

Or you can just hit them real hard all over til they fall down. Including breaking the nose, blinding them, breaking the elbow, cracking the ribs or damaging the liver, rupturing their kidney, and getting to break their jaw. As we say in Texas Yeeeeee-Haaaaaaaaa!

I personally think it unlikely that anyone would get up if I managed to land the initial strike, of course we can always hope that they are still there.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

Originally posted by brianhunter



Could you explain please ??????

Sure. Most that I've seen teach this essentially as an attempted push. Nobody seems to wait to be pushed. I instruct my staff to tell the students ultimately in class to close their eyes forcing them to deal with the push and react to it as the technique is designed. That will completely change these descriptions. Stepping forward off a good push even on the opposite shoulder is not a given. You'll find most instictively move before pushed or end up stepping back. I think Jaybaca said it. "Where the head goes the body follows." Pushing the shoulder moves the head backwards.

What's the crane hand?

Originally posted by Doc



Sure. Most that I've seen teach this essentially as an attempted push. Nobody seems to wait to be pushed. I instruct my staff to tell the students ultimately in class to close their eyes forcing them to deal with the push and react to it as the technique is designed. That will completely change these descriptions. Stepping forward off a good push even on the opposite shoulder is not a given. You'll find most instictively move before pushed or end up stepping back. I think Jaybaca said it. "Where the head goes the body follows." Pushing the shoulder moves the head backwards.

The way Doc is describing it here is how I was taught and how I do it to this day. As your being pushed you use that momentum to hit with the palm heel to the chin (borrowed force I believe).
That takes away any punch idea I think, but to quote Doc "that's my opinion, I could be wrong".


:asian:

Originally posted by arnisador

What's the crane hand?

A hand position where the wrist is bent inward and the fingers of the hand are brought together in a "point." Utilized incorrectly in "Triggered Salute" for "hooking." Lacks structural integrity to actuallly affect the arm with significant resistance present.

Originally posted by Michael Billings

There are interesting pressure points at each specific target which some may be missing due to "...aiming for the head of the fish instead of the eye." (An old Mr. Parker analogy for those interested.)

Nerve under the chin - heel palm
Radial nerve - crane hand, sword hand or cupped palm strike
Point right under the floating rib - inward elbow
Intercostals or below the floating rib on the right lateral side - outward elbow
Kidney or nerve on top of the pelvis - backfist.
Hinge of the mandible or maxilary nerve under the jaw - uppercut

Edmund Jr. did a nice job demonstrating these targets and the opponent's actual reaction to each strike, by using thumb or finger pressure to each point. It was also nice seeing how long it took the body to react and create or acquire the next target at the correct range.

Or you can just hit them real hard all over til they fall down. Including breaking the nose, blinding them, breaking the elbow, cracking the ribs or damaging the liver, rupturing their kidney, and getting to break their jaw. As we say in Texas Yeeeeee-Haaaaaaaaa!

I personally think it unlikely that anyone would get up if I managed to land the initial strike, of course we can always hope that they are still there.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

When I taught Edmund the simple points on this technique I purposely left certain mechanics out, but his presentation and illustration of how these ideas can work has always been excellent on this technique.

Originally posted by GouRonin

The techniques are designed only to work in the "ideal phase" and I have been told that your chances of pulling off a technique as written in a confrontation are zilch. They are there to show rules and principles of motion. If it does not work when you try to pull it off that does not mean that the technique, "does not work" but that there were other variables to be considered. In your friend's case there were other factors at play. I suppose this is why most Kenpoists need to slow down and develop their read time.

I just spent the weekend being told, "No," based on rules and principles. As I said, the techniques are for showing these ideas. I have pulled off techniques, not as written, and had them work. maybe not in entirety but parts of them.

God I wish I could open my skull and spill everything I saw for you all.

In MK, everybody talks about the "ideal" and techniques not working as written. How many times have I said the manuals don't tell you "how" do do a technique? It only tells you what the basic "idea" of the technique is, therefore there are no "ideal" techniques in any of the manuals. Never has been. Ed Parker said, "They are only ideas." Students with the guidance of instructors must make them functional for themselves.

So my question is this: If instructors have to "create" an "ideal" technique based on the lesson plan descriptors in the manuals, why don't they create an "ideal" technique that works in the first place? It makes no sense to me to create an ideal technique to teach "principles," and than abandon the technique so you can make it work. That's dumb. Obviously a well designed technique that works will give you the same opportunities to teach "principles" in a functional enviroment where they make the most sense and serve the best non abstract purpose. Something is really wrong here.

Every Default Technique (ideal) in our techniqur curriculum works as written and teaches the necessary concepts. Everytime someone talks about ideal techniques they are talking about an "interpretation" of what they or their teacher read. Ed Parker said, "If ten guys read the manuals and then try to do what they read, you will see ten different interpretations of what they read." Therefore THERE ARE NO IDEAL TECHNIQUES IN THE MANUALS, ONLY IN YOUR OR YOUR TEACHERS HEAD.

The lesson plan manuals of Motion-Kenpo do what they were designed to do for competent teachers, but competent teachers have to do what they are supposed to do and create a "functional ideal." If the "ideals" aren't working, someone is not doing their job, or are strangely taking the long way around. But perhaps the answer is simpler than that. As I said before, "designing" a functional technique is not as easy within a curriculum as some may think. It's much easier to "blame" Kenpo or the manuals and keep insisting the "maual ideals don't work" when they don't exist. There is nothing wrong with Kenpo motion or otherwise and it is all there. The problem is not the art, it's the teachers.

Now that I've made some more friends...........:soapbox: I'll leave peaceably. you don't have to throw me out:asian:

2. TRIGGERED SALUTE: (Front right hand direct push)

1. While standing naturally, your opponent pushes your left shoulder forcibly with his right hand. SURVIVE THE INITIAL ASSAULT. Immediately and simultaneously (1) ride the action and turn your left shoulder counterclockwise and ride your opponent's right push as you have your left hand SLAP-CHECK/ FIT pin and check your opponent's right hand to your shoulder. (Maintain the PIN throughout the technique) Regain your balance by stepping toward 4:30 with your left foot into a twist stance. (2) step forward as you un-pivot and explode with your right foot into a right neutral bow (between l0:00 and 11:00), and (3) simultaneously thrust a right heel palm strike to the front of your opponent's chin, or top lip. (Your opponent's head should snap back and away from you.) PAUSE

2. Forecasting the response of your opponent's upper body, (1) frictionally slide your right hand in a heel palm position using the heel of the hand, down your opponent's right arm (making sure to anchor your elbow) and STRIKE THE FOREARM just below the bend of the arm. (2) Hook your opponent's right arm down and toward 7:30; (3) ROUND THE CORNER with your right arm as (4) you unhesitatingly deliver a right inward, downward diagonal elbow strike to your opponent's right forward rib-cage, as you pivot into a modified right reverse bow stance. (The frictional pull will bring your opponent's upper body forward and diagonally to his right.

3. After following through with your right inward elbow strike, immediately deliver a right outward horizontal elbow strike to your opponent's right rear floating ribs. PAUSE STOP

4. Using RESIDUAL TORQUE, continue and follow-up with a right outward horizontal back knuckle strike to your opponent's right rear floating ribs (hitting the same point as the elbow. Immediately cock your right fist to your right hip into a right forward bow as you push-drag reverse toward 4:30 to elongate his arm.

5. Without any loss of motion, push-drag forward and thrust a torquing heel palm strike into your opponent's chin while your left hand SLAP-CHECKS at your right shoulder. Lock out your right arm as you...

6. Right front crossover, and cover out toward 7:30.
Timing & Breathing Signature: 12 P 3 P 45 C
GCM Signature™: 12G34G4G5G

Originally posted by Doc


A hand position where the wrist is bent inward and the fingers of the hand are brought together in a "point."

OK, that's what I would have guessed. I too associate it with pecking with the point but have seen it used to hook in Chinese styles. Generally they're making a point so to speak of using a crane technique for everything they do because they're a crane style--it does seem rather pedantic instead of practical.

It's been my experience that Kenpo has a lot in common with Southern Chinese kung fu though--one of the forms has the classic "secret sign", doesn't it? Left hand straight out, back of the right hand on the back of the tricep with index finger extended and the other fingers in leopard-strike position, palm facing out to the side?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doc

[B]

In MK, everybody talks about the "ideal" and techniques not working as written. How many times have I said the manuals don't tell you "how" do do a technique? It only tells you what the basic "idea" of the technique is, therefore there are no "ideal" techniques in any of the manuals. Never has been. Ed Parker said, "They are only ideas." Students with the guidance of instructors must make them functional for themselves.

So my question is this: If instructors have to "create" an "ideal" technique based on the lesson plan descriptors in the manuals, why don't they create an "ideal" technique that works in the first place? It makes no sense to me to create an ideal technique to teach "principles," and than abandon the technique so you can make it work. That's dumb. Obviously a well designed technique that works will give you the same opportunities to teach "principles" in a functional enviroment where they make the most sense and serve the best non abstract purpose. Something is really wrong here.

Every Default Technique (ideal) in our techniqur curriculum works as written and teaches the necessary concepts. Everytime someone talks about ideal techniques they are talking about an "interpretation" of what they or their teacher read. Ed Parker said, "If ten guys read the manuals and then try to do what they read, you will see ten different interpretations of what they read." Therefore THERE ARE NO IDEAL TECHNIQUES IN THE MANUALS, ONLY IN YOUR OR YOUR TEACHERS HEAD.

Mr. C.,

You've made some good points about being a good instructor, is being someone that can make things work.

In reading your post, it read as if you were saying that the written material doesn't work as written.....but yours does. If I've misunderstood, my apology.

I will say that I'm not sure which versions you were referring to, but I've gone through the 32 tech system, as well as two versions of the 24 (including what Parker revised in the last 3 or so years of his life). I will say that if some qualified instructor doesn't show you the material, you could get lost. But, I have found Parker's final "ideal" versions work fine for me. I will credit Parker's writings and Hawkins' instruction. It is sad when some say Parker's material doesn't work, but I'm sure some might say the same about everybody else's. In the end, what works is what works, and my experience with Parker's manuals have been just that. Although I noticed your version doesn't seem to take advantage of the initial borrowed force, your foot work interestingly takes them off balance and sets you up for a nice launch..........very nice.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

I've received several e-mails about Borrowed Force in Triggered Salute. For the record "Borrowed Force" is there and a good instructor can show it. Additionally the last versions of Ed Parker's manuals were a bit more specific but not much, and still don't tell you how. "Right punch to the ribcage" tells you what not how. He NEVER EVER wrote how for Motion-Kenpo. that would contridict its philosophy. It is by designed a conceptual lesson plan with built in flexibility to allow student/teacher tailoring.

"Right punch to the ribcage" is a bit vague, as it does serve your statement, you are making no reference to a particular technique. Notwithstanding the "Motion Kenpo" reference, I suppose you and I will agree to disagree. The manuals get quite detailed as to the "how" in the "ideal phase."

Regarding your version of Triggered Salute, clearly no one can truly know a technique without a qualified instructor doing the hands on. If you say you are still employing borrowed force in the technique, so be it.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

Originally posted by arnisador



OK, that's what I would have guessed. I too associate it with pecking with the point but have seen it used to hook in Chinese styles. Generally they're making a point so to speak of using a crane technique for everything they do because they're a crane style--it does seem rather pedantic instead of practical.

It's been my experience that Kenpo has a lot in common with Southern Chinese kung fu though--one of the forms has the classic "secret sign", doesn't it? Left hand straight out, back of the right hand on the back of the tricep with index finger extended and the other fingers in leopard-strike position, palm facing out to the side?

I don't personally do it with the fingers in a point, since it's not used for striking I basically have the hand in a normal fist formation, but bent towards the forearm to create the crane formation (or maybe the way I do it it's not technically called that, I'm not sure..?)

I'm not a fan of the fingers out position, too easy for someone to grab a hold of them and squeze them all till half of them crack and break if you ask me!

Ian.

Originally posted by Doc

I've received several e-mails about Borrowed Force in Triggered Salute. For the record "Borrowed Force" is there and a good instructor can show it. Additionally the last versions of Ed Parker's manuals were a bit more specific but not much, and still don't tell you how. "Right punch to the ribcage" tells you what not how. He NEVER EVER wrote how for Motion-Kenpo. that would contridict its philosophy. It is by designed a conceptual lesson plan with built in flexibility to allow student/teacher tailoring.

OK my e-mail blew up asking for an explanation on the "Borrowed Force" issue as it's used in the example I gave. This speaks to one of the thngs I alluded to above. Everybody assumes they are on the same page and they are not. Therefore Borrowed Force has to be defined first before we can even conversate.

This is a systemic problem in Motion-Kenpo. I remember a conversation I had with Ed jr. about a demonstration of "Systema" he observed with another well know high ranking kenpoist. Edmund was significantly impressed with the very effective demo and asked the kenpoist what he thought. The other guy said "well he's pretty good," but then went on to list all the principles he felt weren't used in the demo. How can you talk about what wasn't being done when he was being effective? I thought that was the objective. Besides just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Anyway, The "Borrowed Force" issue is very much misunderstood. In Motion-Kenpo the assumption is "Borrowed Force" takes place immediately as the opponent's force is generated with no other actions in between. This is false. When you wind a clock you are providing the force which will drive the mechanism. The mechanism "borrows" it's energy or force from you to drive the mechanism "later." With the Default Technique used in our curriculum, the energy from the push is "borrowed" as you are forced into the Twist Stance. As you know a Twist Stance "stores torquing energy." Therefore the push triggers the twist, and the energy is "stored" momentarily until you "unwind" the stance thus releasing the energy. That's the "Borrowed Force" I was taught and teach, which is obviously different.

This is the only reason why I "label" the different Kenpo interpretations, to communicate. If you stay only within your group you can call it anything or nothing. But in mixed company everybody is not on the same page no matter how much we would like to be. Dam there goes another soapbox :soapbox: I'll see myself out, no need to be physical.

Originally posted by Doc

I've received several e-mails about Borrowed Force in Triggered Salute. For the record "Borrowed Force" is there and a good instructor can show it. Additionally the last versions of Ed Parker's manuals were a bit more specific but not much, and still don't tell you how. "Right punch to the ribcage" tells you what not how. He NEVER EVER wrote how for Motion-Kenpo. that would contridict its philosophy. It is by designed a conceptual lesson plan with built in flexibility to allow student/teacher tailoring.


Actually I think the picture next to borrowed force in the encyclopedia of kenpo looks like they are doing triggered salute

Originally posted by Doc



Therefore the push triggers the twist, and the energy is "stored" momentarily until you "unwind" the stance thus releasing the energy.

Mr. C.,

At the risk of sounding disrespectfully comedic, what's the shelf life on this "stored energy?"

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Ok, I think I see your point. I could even see the push thrusting you into the a twist that ricochets (sp?) you in and out of a twist stance. Ergo, the harder they push, the faster you spring in and out of the twist stance. I gotta say, that is a nice way to create a formidable angle of entry as well.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

Did anyone catch the chop/palm thrusting/ eye attack thingy he added on? Did anyone catch the particulars? It went to fast, and was to dark to read properly. Although it did look like his uke was catching some pain!!!

Salute in Christ,
:asian:

Certainly not meaning to pose any judgment upon your beliefs and spiritual/religious path, it sounded odd that you would include a japanese term "uke" in regards to an American art's tech., "Triggered Salute." Also, knowing that Parker never seemed to put his religious beliefs into our studies, it also felt odd to read "Salute in Christ."

Please know that I truly mean no attack upon your beliefs. On a side note, I am of the belief that JC did actually exist and was certainly a highly plugged in spirit.

On a last note, I would be interested in seeing this insert you speak of...where can I find it?

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

Originally posted by Wes Idol

Certainly not meaning to pose any judgment upon your beliefs and spiritual/religious path, it sounded odd that you would include a japanese term "uke" in regards to an American art's tech., "Triggered Salute." Also, knowing that Parker never seemed to put his religious beliefs into our studies, it also felt odd to read "Salute in Christ."

Please know that I truly mean no attack upon your beliefs. On a side note, I am of the belief that JC did actually exist and was certainly a highly plugged in spirit.

On a last note, I would be interested in seeing this insert you speak of...where can I find it?

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

Are 'uke' and 'tore' not common terms used to descibe a 'defender' and an 'attacker' respectively, in many martial arts?

Where did all the religious speil come from all of a sudden?

Ian

(proud heathen, but believes people should belive in what they want to, as long as they don't e-mail him/knock on his door/approach him in the street and try and make him convert to soemthing!)

Originally posted by satans.barber

Are 'uke' and 'tore' not common terms used to descibe a 'defender' and an 'attacker' respectively, in many martial arts?

Where did all the religious speil come from all of a sudden?

Ian

(proud heathen, but believes people should belive in what they want to, as long as they don't e-mail him/knock on his door/approach him in the street and try and make him convert to soemthing!)

Dear Barber,

I would venture to say that Mr. Idol is trying to determine why Donald ends all of his posts with "Salute in Christ." Especially since Mr. Parker didn't preach his religious beliefs in class. (Wes is probably just inquiring through curiosity, nothing malicious I'm sure.)

Uke and Tore are Japanese terms and not part of AMERICAN Kenpo. If you want to get technical, chinese terminology would be more appropriate if the English term were substituted with something else (due to the chinese origin of "our" art).

I'm wondering... What kind of power tools do you use to cut good old Lucifer's hair? I would imagine they'd have to be sharp. Why do you use the name Satans Barber? It has a ceretain conotation too, doesn't it? :shrug:

Sincerely,
Billy Lear

Originally posted by satans.barber

Are 'uke' and 'tore' not common terms used to descibe a 'defender' and an 'attacker' respectively, in many martial arts?

Where did all the religious speil come from all of a sudden?

Ian

(proud heathen, but believes people should belive in what they want to, as long as they don't e-mail him/knock on his door/approach him in the street and try and make him convert to soemthing!)

Barber,
Billy Lear explained my position well. I'm not trying to attack, only inquire and understand.

WI, HI
UKS
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

Wes Idol; et al,
In response to your first question. I use some Japanese terms because I was taught that way. I guess it kinda stuck with me. To me the "traditional" terms add/maintain an air of "old school karate". Can't you just hear the hai sensei, and the slam of a good front leg sweep take down!? Feel the aching muscles, and shaking legs, but with an air of satisfaction, as you shout through the count echoing in the dojo, ich,ni.... Now regarding the 2nd part of your 1st question. What connotations of spirituality would the term uke conjour up? I am not aware of any Eastern religious teachings tied to these terms? As to why I sign off invoking the name of, Jesus Christ. Quite simply I believe that He is who He says He is, IAM... For that reason I want to honor Him in everything I do, and just maybe encourage someone else. I probably won't stop you in the street, knock on your door, or call you on the phone, but by God's grace I will pray for all. I hope I've answered all your questions satisfactorily? If not please let me know.
Salute in Christ,
:asian:

Thank you for responding. My question regarding spiritual/religious was connected to "salute in Christ", not "uke." Traditions do mean a great deal to me, as do history. If we don't know where we came from, we will never know where it is we are going, for we have no points of reference. I still refere to my Kenpo Father as "Sifu", as this was his choice. I only asked because Parker made such efforts to use English terms, being it an American art. Please take no offense in my questions. Your willingness to share your perspective is appreciated.

In regards to Christ and your beliefs, I honor them as your path and truth.

Respectfully,

WI, HI
UKS

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
I would venture to say that Mr. Idol is trying to determine why Donald ends all of his posts with "Salute in Christ." Especially since Mr. Parker didn't preach his religious beliefs in class. (Wes is probably just inquiring through curiosity, nothing malicious I'm sure.)


Ah, I see, I thought he meant that 'Uke' was a religious term of some sort, which was what confused me! My mistake!


I'm wondering... What kind of power tools do you use to cut good old Lucifer's hair? I would imagine they'd have to be sharp. Why do you use the name Satans Barber? It has a ceretain conotation too, doesn't it?

I'm know as that all over the web, not just in here (www.satansbarber.co.uk !). The name itself comes from Sweeny Todd, but I also do it partly to piss off religous zealots! Sorry, that's just my cheeky nature, I too aren't malicious! I like winding up vegetarians as well when I get the chance.... :rofl:

Ian.

Originally posted by satans.barber

I like winding up vegetarians as well when I get the chance.... :rofl:

Ian.

And what kind of meat do you eat to do that? :rofl:

Originally posted by WilliamTLear

And what kind of meat do you eat to do that? :rofl:

Hehe, whilst we were in America there was an advert on the TV all the time that said

"You know, a meal's not a meal......without meat!"

Since one of the lads I was with is a veggie it provided endless fun!

Ian.

imitating Sam Elliot..."Beef...It's what's for dinner!"