So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

So having read all of what you posted, at what point were there words put into your mouth, and at what point did you not backpedal? You have a different opinion fine. But don't act like you didn't post certain things and try to play the victim. Some of us are actually reading the thread and paying attention.

:whip:

Ayup.

[jazkiljok]

I go away for a day and this forum goes to crap. "that's my opinion"...

For the record this is what I said, not back peddling, clarification.


[LIST=1]
There is one person who has More of the system than any other person. That does not mean all of the system or no other person has a lot of or most of the system. Ergo no two people are exactly alike. There may be one more skilled in a particular area over this person who has more of the whole complete system.

lost me on that one.


There may be individuals with more information which was accumulated from other systems, but may not fit well with Kenpo.
or it does fit well...point being?


Ed Parker gave more information to certain individuals than he did to others, based on trust, not seniority.

and what does that portend?


I Notice I have not said anyone in particular, that is because I am not making any claim as fact for any one individual, but that there is always one better than the rest.

better at what exactly?



For instance who was the best basketball player of all time?

no doubt, Bill Russell.



Who is the best rock band of all time?

of course, the Clash... go on



Who is the best cyclist of all time?

Eddy Merckx



Who is the greatest composer of all time?

Bach, but do you contemporary bastards care anymore...:idunno:



Now these questions are subjective to a degree, but have generally accepted answers.

just a degree?:) ... lucky we have the general public as the final say in such matters.


I only later stated that Tatum was who I BELIEVED to be the heir-apparent to the system.

so you have and time for everyone to move on...


As for the claim of hard evidence this is what I said about that


"As for your comment on personal experiences, juries often will take the account of eye witnesses over DNA. So go ahead and believe opinions laid out as facts I still look at the hard evidence" That was a response to someone elses post.

yeah- who you going to believe?... me or your lying eyes!?



So quit putting words in my mouth.

word to that.

[Kenpodoc]

My uneducated opinion.

1. The senior who knows the Parker system of the early '60's best - either Al Tracy or Chuck Sullivan.

2. The senior who knows the commercial system as outlined in the '70s and subtly modified thereafter - Huk Planas.

3. The senior who likely knows the most about Mr. Parkers non-commercial approach to an american version of the chinese Martial Arts - Ron Chapel.

4. The senior with the most direct effect on my personal journey in american Kenpo - Lee Wedlake.

5. The senior with the students most willing to trash the abilities of everyone except the one true Messiah - Larry Tatum. (I find this odd as he is clearly personally very talented and should need no external validation. I've not met him personally but he was very polite and respectful in our one phone conversation. He was neither at the center of the development of the commercial Kenpo Model nor in the last group studying with the Master. He does have students such as Clyde who are willing to personally test their skills in personal confrontation but so do other seniors, they just spend less time bragging about it. [Ron Chapel and Steve LaBounty have I believe both had opportunity to test their Kenpo in the far less forgiving arena of Law enforcement.]) I respect Mr. Tatum's abilities as a Martial Artist and an Instructor but now wonder why his students feel it necessary to trumpet their version as the one true way and brusquely demean everyone else.

KenpRonin, I'm glad you have found your martial Arts Messiah. If you want to prove that he teaches the one true way then i would suggest that rather than merely demean others choices, go to the Techniques area and convince us that your version is better than the others. Better yet go to seminars and be such a shining light of quality Kenpo that others choose to seek your way.

Respectfully submitted,

Jeff

[kevin kilroe]

How about posting some videos in the Members in Motion section?

[hongkongfooey]

Good post KenpoDoc!

[jaybacca72]

great post kenpodoc,you hit the nail right on the head. many people forget who taught tatum while mr.parker was travelling around teaching others promoting kenpo and mr.trejo was also trained by this person (or heavily influenced) so i will let you guess? except for the people that were there they already know.
later
jay arnold

[Kenpojujitsu3]

great post kenpodoc,you hit the nail right on the head. many people forget who taught tatum while mr.parker was travelling around teaching others promoting kenpo and mr.trejo was also trained by this person (or heavily influenced) so i will let you guess? except for the people that were there they already know.
later
jay arnold

Who is Richard 'Huk' Planas for $1000, but this is always 'forgotten'

[James Kovacich]

And therein lies the controversy.

Personally, I would rather really own about 1/2 dozen sparring combinations, 1/2 dozen kick-boxing combos, about 1/2 of the kenpo technique body, a handful of throws, and some wrasslin'. And I mean OWN it. I can still explore and discover new things in simple basics that I'd never seen before.
So now, instead of tromping off to practice the complete system, I'm tromping off to re-evaluate shoulder muscle dynamics in kenpo blocks & strikes. I gots no business burning more data deeper into memory if my mechanics need improving. And my mechanics ALWAYS need improving.


Dave
Thats a good post that could be said of any system! People probably think I'm being an ass when I pick apart techniques or training methods but greatness in a little goes much farther than good in alot. Thank you my friend.

[KenpoRonin]

So having read all of what you posted, at what point were there words put into your mouth, and at what point did you not backpedal? You have a different opinion fine. But don't act like you didn't post certain things and try to play the victim. Some of us are actually reading the thread and paying attention.

:whip:

How very clever of you.

There is one person who has More of the system than any other person. That does not mean all of the system or no other person has a lot of or most of the system. Ergo no two people are exactly alike. There may be one more skilled in a particular area over this person who has more of the whole complete system.

No one before him had all the information and how many after him were able to get it?

The second post was in reference to what Parker said about him, I was simply paraphrasing Parker.

As for the claim of hard evidence this is what I said about that

As for my ignorance, I do have hard evidence that I use to make my claims, as I had said in a previous post. But those who respond would rather attack me rather than ask what evidence I have or am referring to. He did declare a successor. One of my Students has an issue of Black Belt where Parker named Tatum as his successor.

This post was in refernce to my previous post, but I did provide evidence of Parker Claiming Tatum as the Key guy and likely heir.

Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares Judas was with Jesus before Paul, but well I think we all know how that bit of history turned out. Now I am not claiming Chapel is a traitor to Parker, just showing the fallacy of that argument.

Ok I am not senior but I believe this guy is more Senior than almost all of you. He knows the history and this is what he had to say.

Those are two separate points, though both have to do with history. Chapel’s claim about being more senior has to do with being more legit or more… something. Since no one would answer the question of that post rather attacked me for making it. I will assume that he himself superior in some way. I offer someone to give me another plausible reason if I am wrong. Second I offered up Tracy as only someone who being on the sidelines the whole time as a non-partisan historical perspective. Nice try though

Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares....

I have not offered any personal attacks on any senior.

You consider that a personal attack. How very sensitive you must be, maybe martial arts isn’t your field, maybe something like the peace corp. I was simply proving error in his argument.

Nice try.

[HKphooey]

I will develop myself in a positive manner and avoid anything that would reduce my mental growth or my physical health.
I will develop self discipline in order to bring out the best in myself and others.
I will use the art of Kenpo constructively and defensively to help myself and my fellow man and never to be abusive or offensive.
I will live by the principles of black belt: modesty, integrity, perseverance, self-control and indomitable spirit.

[Ray]

There is one person who has More of the system than any other person.


No one before him had all the information and how many after him were able to get it?


Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. I have not offered any personal attacks on any senior.


You consider that a personal attack. How very sensitive you must be, maybe martial arts isn’t your field, maybe something like the peace corp. I was simply proving error in his argument. I don't really know who's teaching the "correct" system but there are several people teaching "better" than what I know.

Given the opportunity to study under Mr. Chapel, or Mr. Tatum or Mr. Sepulveda or Mr. Planas or Mr. Pick (and the list goes on), I would jump at the chance--because any of them can make me a better kenpo practitioner. Then again, do I have the talent and determination to make their teaching and make it work for me?

Besides this thread is just more and more like "my dad can lick your dad" arguements of 10 year old kids.

[Hand Sword]

http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Hand Sword]

First, no one system is any better than any of the others, (This includes the Kenpo versions too!)

Second, reasonable thinking would say that those who got their BB's before so and so... Are legitimit, no arguing there. However, when they got theirs, Ed Parker and his Kenpo were young and still evolving. Later students, such as Mr. Tatum, Got the finished version or closer to it, along the lines of Kenpo's and Mr. Parker's evolution. The older students were set in their Kenpo ways, exchanged with Mr. Parker off and on, and added/ deleted to their Kenpo, along the lines of their own prefernces, making it Their Kenpo, as we all do with time.

Bottom line, all are legit. Having spent the time and practice that they all have proves this. If one can spend time with each, you would learn.

[KenpoRonin]

Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
I go away for a day and this forum goes to crap. "that's my opinion"...

For the record this is what I said, not back peddling, clarification.

[list=1]
There is one person who has More of the system than any other person. That does not mean all of the system or no other person has a lot of or most of the system. Ergo no two people are exactly alike. There may be one more skilled in a particular area over this person who has more of the whole complete system.


lost me on that one.
Not surprising. Simply stated, there is a short list of those who are the best. Of that list there are no two who are equal. Some excel in certain fields. There would be one who excels in more fields than the rest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
There may be individuals with more information which was accumulated from other systems, but may not fit well with Kenpo.

or it does fit well...point being?
There are a lot of people adopted in and never got the full system. Remember what this post is about, if you are confused which is something I think happens to you a lot, look just under my name it will tell you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenpoRonin

Ed Parker gave more information to certain individuals than he did to others, based on trust, not seniority.


and what does that portend?
Just reiterating my point that seniority is not always what it is cracked up to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
I Notice I have not said anyone in particular, that is because I am not making any claim as fact for any one individual, but that there is always one better than the rest.


better at what exactly?
Many here on this post love to think all the old greats are equal in their own right. This is fallacious based on my above argument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
For instance who was the best basketball player of all time?

no doubt, Bill Russell.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
Who is the best rock band of all time?


of course, the Clash... go on


Quote:
Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
Who is the best cyclist of all time?


Eddy Merckx


Quote:
Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
Who is the greatest composer of all time?


Bach, but do you contemporary bastards care anymore...


Quote:
Originally Posted by KenpoRonin
Now these questions are subjective to a degree, but have generally accepted answers.


just a degree? ... lucky we have the general public as the final say in such matters.
I stand corrected if your answers an example of the general public, The general public obviously are idiots.

[MJS]

How very clever of you.

There is one person who has More of the system than any other person. That does not mean all of the system or no other person has a lot of or most of the system. Ergo no two people are exactly alike. There may be one more skilled in a particular area over this person who has more of the whole complete system.

No one before him had all the information and how many after him were able to get it?

The second post was in reference to what Parker said about him, I was simply paraphrasing Parker.

As for the claim of hard evidence this is what I said about that

As for my ignorance, I do have hard evidence that I use to make my claims, as I had said in a previous post. But those who respond would rather attack me rather than ask what evidence I have or am referring to. He did declare a successor. One of my Students has an issue of Black Belt where Parker named Tatum as his successor.

This post was in refernce to my previous post, but I did provide evidence of Parker Claiming Tatum as the Key guy and likely heir.

Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares Judas was with Jesus before Paul, but well I think we all know how that bit of history turned out. Now I am not claiming Chapel is a traitor to Parker, just showing the fallacy of that argument.

Ok I am not senior but I believe this guy is more Senior than almost all of you. He knows the history and this is what he had to say.

Those are two separate points, though both have to do with history. Chapel’s claim about being more senior has to do with being more legit or more… something. Since no one would answer the question of that post rather attacked me for making it. I will assume that he himself superior in some way. I offer someone to give me another plausible reason if I am wrong. Second I offered up Tracy as only someone who being on the sidelines the whole time as a non-partisan historical perspective.Nice try though

Now Chapel likes to tout that he was in the system longer than Tatum. Who cares....

I have not offered any personal attacks on any senior.

You consider that a personal attack. How very sensitive you must be, maybe martial arts isn’t your field, maybe something like the peace corp. I was simply proving error in his argument.

Nice try.



While I realize that this is a hot issue, taking shots at one another really isn't going to do much more than get the thread shut down. Now, aside from that, I saw above that you said that you had evidence. I'm not interested in taking shots at you, but I am interested in hearing what you have to say regarding the above comment.

Mike

[Carol]

There is an OCR scan of the article on Larry Tatum's website, as well as on usadojo.com. Same scan, but the formatting on usadojo.com is a bit easier to read.

I made an attempt to keep the quotes in context. If someone does have a copy of the magazne, it would be seriously cool to get a clean scan of it. It's a very good read.

Full Article:
http://www.usadojo.com/articles/magician-motion.htm


Snippet: Ed Parker "doesn't give a damn about beautiful form"



"A lot of kenpo instructors are searching," he said. "I'm not saying I have all the answers, but I haven't stuck to tradition. When you stick to tradition, you're bound. You're bound to see only what is in that realm of knowl- edge."

It is just this rejection of tradition that has led the kenpoist to the second secret of his system, a concept based on the age-old premise that the end justifies the means.

"When I teach, I want effects," Parker said. "If a punch comes, if you block it and you look lazy, as long as you block it, that's alii care about. I don't give a damn about going down with beautiful form.

"I was talking like this twenty years ago when I was a no-good-for-nothing rebel. I'm a street fighter. I'm a realist. I've seen guys go into a fight and bite {the other) guy's nose off. And knowing that his nose is gone, he still hits! He's an animal.



Snippet: Ed Parker also indicates that:
- he held back some knowledge
- he took on proteges to help ensure the continuity of Kenpo
- That he shared his full scope of knowledge with these proteges
- That his knowledge would also be shared with anyone else that is sincere, because when he goes to his grave he would want other people to know
- That his students (plural) would modify and perfect Kenpo :eek: :eek:



Parker admitted more than the fear of jealous rivals has motivated his reti- cence regarding his American kenpo. He said he has worried over former students who would leave and open up kenpo studios of their own.
"I always had the fear of guys taking off, being disloyal and opening up on their own," he said. "And so I left out a lot of stuff."

Parker said he found some students resenting his secretiveness, once they found out he had hidden knowledge from them. "They were somewhat hurt in a way ," he admitted, "but they still feel happy. They are (the now-complete techniques) some minor additions in the whole puzzle. I am teaching those who stuck by me. The fact is, I was going to reserve it (the knowledge) for my chil- dren and my son. He's not interested in the martial arts. He studies, but his heart is in the (fine)
arts."

In place of children lost as succes- sors, Parker ~oted he has taken on pro- teges to insure the continuity of the kenpo systemo .
"My key protege is this kid Larry Tatum," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid. He's my. number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything. "

The kenpoist noted that he is helping 15-year student Tatum complete a book, Confidence, A Child's First Weal on. He also named two others he consil ers proteges, insiders with whom he h. shared the full scope of his knowledge Tom Kelly, who Parker said is the higl est-degree black belt at a seventh-dG level, operates a Parker school in Sa Lake City; Joe Palanzo, another forml student who Parker said holds a fiftl degree black belt, teaches at a school i Baltimore.

In addition to h is select protege Parker insisted he will offer his kno~ edge to "anyone else who's definitel sincere, because when I go to the grave want to know that there are other pel pie who (know) outside of my famil' They would have the mountain ( knowledge."

Once he sees his students and prc teges have the mountain securely withi their grip, Parker said he will rest eas regarding the future of kenpo.
"I don't see that once my studen learn kenpo, they'll modify it," he saic "They'll perfect it. And that's wher they will excel."


KenpoRonin, this is not a slam at you or anyone else, please don't take it s such.

From a birds eye view, this reads to me like Mr. Parker identified three proteges with the intent of keeping the system on. And, that he was leaving the door open for others to follow. It speaks volumes for the confidence that Mr. Parker had in Mr. Tatum, but to me it reads like Mr. Parker did not intend to have only one successor.

Personally...public consensus does not strike me as the best metric for making a trainig decision. It isn't public consensus that determines one's reasons for training in MA, the goals that one wants to see from it, or how it fits around work/family/geography etc. It most certainly is NOT public consensus that will dictate how and when any of us will use our skills.

Dang that would stink if it did. Make a stupid move on MT...hmmmm....public consensus says OK Carol it's your turn to face an open can of Whoop Ass. Yikes! :D

[Ray]

In place of children lost as successors,
Parker noted he has taken on proteges
to insure the continuity of the kenpo system.

"My key protege is this kid Larry Tatum," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid.

He's my number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything.
protegeS
Right now (back then).

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I stand corrected if your answers an example of the general public, The general public obviously are idiots.



It is not the aim of Kenpo to merely produce a skillful as well as powerful practitioner, but to create a well integrated student respectful of all

Good job Mr. Hoff. You are showing everyone how well you are assimilating the lessons of Kenpo. Exactly how does a 'Ronin' (Masterless warrior) become so devoted to one master anyway? As I've said previously, your dedication is commendable. But your 'evidence' is lacking and statements contradictory. And when the contradictions are brought to your attention you become confrontational, thus further negating an valid points you may be trying to present.

Kenpo, Motion Kenpo, EPAK, American Kenpo...whatever you want to call it is a system that is based on logic and has the goal of creating respectful indivduals as stated by Mr. Parker himself. If you want to hold true to what Mr. Parker said you need to do two things.

1. Be respectful, so far you have not as you view this as "sparring 6 on 1" but you're the only one sparring.

2. Follow logic. Logic doesn't allow for opinons or assumptions. So far the argument for several great seniors has been based on logic and history. The argument for one to succeed all others has been based on opinion, personal sentiment and assumptions.

We all have opinions, but you claim to have facts. They have yet to be presented and all the snide comments are dragging the thread down, mine included.

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Snippet: Ed Parker "doesn't give a damn about beautiful form"

So I guess we can throw out all the arguments about who moves better............right?


That his students (plural) would modify and perfect Kenpo :eek: :eek:

Blasphemy and Heresy I say! LOL

Good Post.

[Carol]

So I guess we can throw out all the arguments about who moves better............right?

Sir you may be asking for trouble when you ask an engineer rhetorical questions ;)

It calls in to question the importance of "moves better" in terms of Mr. Parker's selection of proteges. It doesn't say that moving better isn't cool, or isn't a worthy desire of the individual student. It was nothing that got universalized into the system.



Blasphemy and Heresy I say! LOL


The plague of locusts are on their way :D

*zipping in to a fire suit*

The article reads as if loyalty and sincerity were very important to Mr. Parker. It indicates that in 1979, Mr. Palanzo was a 7th, and Mr. Kelly a 5th.

Mr. Tatum was not yet a 5th black at that time, correct?

When determining a protege, one looks at talent as well as potential. Given the importance that Mr. Parker placed on loyalty, is this really Mr. Parker saying that he preferring his lower black over his higher blacks?

Or, is he saying that Mr. Palanzo and Mr. Kelly are his students that have already been developed... and Mr. Tatum is developing. Mr. Tatum is on the path of obtaining all of Mr. Parker's...all while Mr. Parker is delighting in his progress and his potential?

*peering around for flames*

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Sir you may be asking for trouble when you ask an engineer rhetorical questions ;)

It calls in to question the importance of "moves better" in terms of Mr. Parker's selection of proteges. It doesn't say that moving better isn't cool, or isn't a worthy desire of the individual student. It was nothing that got universalized into the system.



The plague of locusts are on their way :D

*zipping in to a fire suit*

The article reads as if loyalty and sincerity were very important to Mr. Parker. It indicates that in 1979, Mr. Palanzo was a 7th, and Mr. Kelly a 5th.

Mr. Tatum was not yet a 5th black at that time, correct?

When determining a protege, one looks at talent as well as potential. Given the importance that Mr. Parker placed on loyalty, is this really Mr. Parker saying that he preferring his lower black over his higher blacks?

Or, is he saying that Mr. Palanzo and Mr. Kelly are his students that have already been developed... and Mr. Tatum is developing. Mr. Tatum is on the path of obtaining all of Mr. Parker's...all while Mr. Parker is delighting in his progress and his potential?

*peering around for flames*

You are one sharp person!

Minus the part where Mr. Kelly's and Palanzo's ranks were reversed (If my history serves my Mr. Kelly was 7th and Mr. palanzo was 5th, but I may be wrong) I'd have to agree. Especially the bolded part. It could make sense when put in context with the "key guy right now" part of the article.

[Carol]

Mr. Kelly's and Palanzo's ranks were reversed (If my history serves my Mr. Kelly was 7th and Mr. palanzo was 5th, but I may be wrong).

No sir you are correct. It seems my belt chart does not have an effective defence against typos. :D

Your kind words are leaving me speechless :asian:

[pete]

you can comb through the sacred scrolls, hanging on every word, which may or may not have been as carefully chosen as they are now being interpreted and rationalize anything or everything.

the question is who is teaching the correct system, and everyone is looking at the WHO IS rather than debating WHAT the CORRECT SYSTEM is.

If we figure that one out, then we can easily identify who is teaching it.

Is the correct system the one we know as American Kenpo, the one with:
154 self defense techniques,
96 technique extensions (of orange-green belt techniques),
11 forms: 9 empty handed + 2 weapon (clubs and knives),
a system of freestyle techniques,
14 sets: stance, block, strike, kick, finger, and coord (1&2) + 2-man and one weapon (staff).

To my understanding this is the complete AMERICAN KENPO system. CORRECT would imply the level of QUALITY applied to this material, as both MENTAL KNOWLEDGE and PHYSICAL APPLICATION, through understanding of the CONCEPTS that make the material a system, or SYLLABUS, and TRAINING to achieve the PHYSICAL ACTUALIZATION to make it WORK.

now, WHO is teaching this system correctly?

[Kenpojujitsu3]

you can comb through the sacred scrolls, hanging on every word, which may or may not have been as carefully chosen as they are now being interpreted and rationalize anything or everything.

the question is who is teaching the correct system, and everyone is looking at the WHO IS rather than debating WHAT the CORRECT SYSTEM is.

If we figure that one out, then we can easily identify who is teaching it.

Is the correct system the one we know as American Kenpo, the one with:
154 self defense techniques,
96 technique extensions (of orange-green belt techniques),
11 forms: 9 empty handed + 2 weapon (clubs and knives),
a system of freestyle techniques,
14 sets: stance, block, strike, kick, finger, and coord (1&2) + 2-man and one weapon (staff).

To my understanding this is the complete AMERICAN KENPO system. CORRECT would imply the level of QUALITY applied to this material, as both MENTAL KNOWLEDGE and PHYSICAL APPLICATION, through understanding of the CONCEPTS that make the material a system, or SYLLABUS, and TRAINING to achieve the PHYSICAL ACTUALIZATION to make it WORK.

now, WHO is teaching this system correctly?

Very good points about complete and correct!

Even given your fairly complete list of the "complete" system the 'completeness' could be debated however "your understanding" of it could not.

[KenpoRonin]

While I realize that this is a hot issue, taking shots at one another really isn't going to do much more than get the thread shut down. Now, aside from that, I saw above that you said that you had evidence. I'm not interested in taking shots at you, but I am interested in hearing what you have to say regarding the above comment.

Mike

Here is a quote from an article Parker had with Black Belt magazine

…He has worried over former students would leave and open up Kenpo studios of their own. I always had the fear guys taking off being disloyal and opening up on their own, so I left out a lot of stuff. Parker said he found some students resenting… that he had hidden knowledge from him. Quote they were somewhat hurt in a way he admitted but they would still feel happy. They are (the now complete techniques) some minor additions in the whole puzzle. I am teaching those who stuck by me. The fact is I was going to reserve the knowledge for my children and my son. He is not interested in the martial arts he studies but his heart is in the fine arts. In place of children lost as successors he has taken on protégés to insure the continuity of the kenpo system.

My key protege is this kid Larry Tatum," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid. He's my number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything. "

The kenpoist noted that he is helping 15-year student Tatum complete a book, Confidence, A Child's First Weapon.

He also named two others he considers proteges, insiders with whom he has shared the full scope of his knowledge, Tom Kelly, who Parker said is the highest-degree black belt at a seventh-degree level, operates a Parker school in Salt Lake City; Joe Palanzo, another former student who Parker said holds a fifth degree black belt, teaches at a school in Baltimore.

Those are Parkers words not mine. He names three people to be possible successors to the system.

There are also Five people who listed in the Journey (which is the Who's who of Kenpo) who obtained their black belt from Larry Tatum.

[KenpoRonin]

KenpoRonin, this is not a slam at you or anyone else, please don't take it s such.

From a birds eye view, this reads to me like Mr. Parker identified three proteges with the intent of keeping the system on. And, that he was leaving the door open for others to follow. It speaks volumes for the confidence that Mr. Parker had in Mr. Tatum, but to me it reads like Mr. Parker did not intend to have only one successor. :D

None taken. I totally agree with what you said. Parker didn't want just one person to have the information, but he wanted loyal people to have the information. There is then the question of who were the loyal people who also had enough time to spend with Parker on the mats. I am talking about hours of mat time. I know from personal experience that my growth has slowed because I chose instructor that is not in the same town as me. There is something about spending time with your instructor on a daily basis as apposed to a few times a year.

[KenpoRonin]

protegeS
Right now (back then).

Yea and he was the only one to teach on Parkers behalf for years later. It is not likely that changed one or two years later. I would bet that didn't change until their falling out in or around 87.

[Seig]

Yea and he was the only one to teach on Parkers behalf for years later. It is not likely that changed one or two years later. I would bet that didn't change until their falling out in or around 87.
Really? The suppose you tell me what all the Black Belts that were members of the IKKA were doing? Many people taught "on "MR. "Parker's behalf", even after Mr. Tatum left the organization. I have interacted with many Seniors in a variety of ways, and what I have learned from them is this, if you think there is only one way to do anything, then you have learned nothing. I normally stay out of these kinds of threads, because I see them as pointless. Try describing the color blue to a blind man, sam ting. Here is the reality, your arguments are circular and counter productive. No one has said anything bad about Mr. Tatum, or Clyde. Have you heard Mr. Tatum say anything of the things you claim? If he was the one true heir, why did he not try to claim the throne? I am willing to bet it is because he is happy with what he is doing. If he wanted the throne, he would not have left the IKKA. One last point, those that I have talked to that were close to Mr. Parker, are still teaching on his behalf.

[KenpoRonin]

[/font][/color]

Good job Mr. Hoff. You are showing everyone how well you are assimilating the lessons of Kenpo. Exactly how does a 'Ronin' (Masterless warrior) become so devoted to one master anyway? As I've said previously, your dedication is commendable. But your 'evidence' is lacking and statements contradictory. And when the contradictions are brought to your attention you become confrontational, thus further negating an valid points you may be trying to present.

Kenpo, Motion Kenpo, EPAK, American Kenpo...whatever you want to call it is a system that is based on logic and has the goal of creating respectful indivduals as stated by Mr. Parker himself. If you want to hold true to what Mr. Parker said you need to do two things.

1. Be respectful, so far you have not as you view this as "sparring 6 on 1" but you're the only one sparring.

2. Follow logic. Logic doesn't allow for opinons or assumptions. So far the argument for several great seniors has been based on logic and history. The argument for one to succeed all others has been based on opinion, personal sentiment and assumptions.

We all have opinions, but you claim to have facts. They have yet to be presented and all the snide comments are dragging the thread down, mine included.


I got to say you have a talent for picking apart someone's argument by picking and choosing a segments of my argument and attacking that part. Completely ignoring the body of my argument or when you can’t combat my argument you simply say that I am being disrespectful. Thought is much like martial arts, one will not grow unless someone is willing to challenge your thought, push your thought into uncomfortable areas. Until you have put your thoughts into a firing squad and have people attack them, can you know what you know has validity.

I noticed that KenpoDoc posted a series of individuals who were the best at specifics. No one questioned or commented on a single word he said. How interesting. I only listed one person; he lists 4 claims, no remarks. I would be willing to bet that is because he put Chapel on there and he only validates your own ideas about Chapel.

[Ray]

Yea and he was the only one to teach on Parkers behalf for years later. It is not likely that changed one or two years later. I would bet that didn't change until their falling out in or around 87.Hmmm. Funny you should bring up the "falling out." Maybe Mr. Parker changed his mind about Mr. Tatum?

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I got to say you have a talent for picking apart someone's argument by picking and choosing a segments of my argument and attacking that part. Completely ignoring the body of my argument or when you can’t combat my argument you simply say that I am being disrespectful. Thought is much like martial arts, one will not grow unless someone is willing to challenge your thought, push your thought into uncomfortable areas. Until you have put your thoughts into a firing squad and have people attack them, can you know what you know has validity.

I noticed that KenpoDoc posted a series of individuals who were the best at specifics. No one questioned or commented on a single word he said. How interesting. I only listed one person; he lists 4 claims, no remarks. I would be willing to bet that is because he put Chapel on there and he only validates your own ideas about Chapel.

Actually if you just said "Tatum is ONE of the best" I'd wholeheartedly agree with you as well. All of the snide remarks and the "Tatum is THE greatest" stuff is the issue. Also posting the same article with 3 names repeatedly and disregarding...

1) The "Big Fallout" between Mr. Parker and Mr. Tatum.

2) The other two names on that list.

3) the others named as proteges after Tatum's "leaving"

....doesn't help your "argument"

No one is "combating" your argument it's dismantling itself by your own posted contraditions and leaving out "key" pieces of the history that refute your claim. Your opinon cannot be debated. But the partial facts you present and then alter with your subjective thoughts can. NO ONE'S opinion can be presented as fact, period.

Forgive me for "picking apart" your arguments. It's not personal, it's just what I do from working with/within Law Enforcement, Private Sector Security and Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences. Statements that A) contradict themselves, B) have "logical jumps" or "sequencial gaps" and C) are pure speculation stand out to me in my lines of work and areas of study.

My Ideas about Chapel are the following..

1) Moves cleanly, 2) open and approachable, 3) displays knowledge that few others have (it's been argued that NO others have)

My ideas about Tatum are as follows..

1) Moves cleanly (it has been argued even cleaner than Mr. Parker), 2) open and approachable, 3) displays knowledge that few others have.

Same ideas but with slight differences which is why I call them both SOME of the best.

Cool stuff (sincerely) you posted about thought and martial arts. So now that so many have challenged your thoughts on supremacy, successors, logic, history, seniority, etc. Do you think "what you know has validity" as you put it?

P.S. Also as you highlighted youself the article mentions "children lost as successors" but Mr. Parker specfically used the word protege which has a much different meaning. A protege can become a successor but is not one. And there were again at least 3 at that given time who knows what happened in the next 11 years.

P.P.S. Two of my most respected martial artists are Mike Lambert and Lee Epperson whom I consider a great friend. Both are with LTKKA. In other words, it has nothing to do with your "line" or my thoughts of Mr. Tatum. Just the claim of Tatum's supremacy in the kenpo realm.

[Bode]

I noticed that KenpoDoc posted a series of individuals who were the best at specifics. No one questioned or commented on a single word he said. How interesting. I only listed one person; he lists 4 claims, no remarks. I would be willing to bet that is because he put Chapel on there and he only validates your own ideas about Chapel.

KenpoDoc started by saying "my uneducated oppinion"....

When you began in this thread your statements read as if you are making a factual statement.

Two very different ways of presenting yourself, especially on a forum where you haven't established your character. It's as if you butted into a conversation at a party without introducing yourself and proceeded to make bold statements of fact. I personally don't care either way. I train. I have my teacher. That's it. But as a former foot in mouth person, I am trying to help you see why people jumped on your statements. Take it for what it's worth....

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Yea and he was the only one to teach on Parkers behalf for years later. It is not likely that changed one or two years later. I would bet that didn't change until their falling out in or around 87.

This is just plain false by the way.

[Kenpojujitsu3]

KenpoDoc started by saying "my uneducated oppinion"....

When you began in this thread your statements read as if you are making a factual statement.

Two very different ways of presenting yourself, especially on a forum where you haven't established your character. It's as if you butted into a conversation at a party without introducing yourself and proceeded to make bold statements of fact. I personally don't care either way. I train. I have my teacher. That's it. But as a former foot in mouth person, I am trying to help you see why people jumped on your statements. Take it for what it's worth....

Good point, Bode. I just hope the reply isn't something like "you're just saying that because you're one of Chapel's"

[KenpoRonin]

Really? The suppose you tell me what all the Black Belts that were members of the IKKA were doing? Many people taught "on "MR. "Parker's behalf", even after Mr. Tatum left the organization. I have interacted with many Seniors in a variety of ways, and what I have learned from them is this, if you think there is only one way to do anything, then you have learned nothing. I normally stay out of these kinds of threads, because I see them as pointless. Try describing the color blue to a blind man, sam ting. Here is the reality, your arguments are circular and counter productive. No one has said anything bad about Mr. Tatum, or Clyde. Have you heard Mr. Tatum say anything of the things you claim? If he was the one true heir, why did he not try to claim the throne? I am willing to bet it is because he is happy with what he is doing. If he wanted the throne, he would not have left the IKKA. One last point, those that I have talked to that were close to Mr. Parker, are still teaching on his behalf.

type error Travel on not teach on. Sorry

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Really? The suppose you tell me what all the Black Belts that were members of the IKKA were doing? Many people taught "on "MR. "Parker's behalf", even after Mr. Tatum left the organization. I have interacted with many Seniors in a variety of ways, and what I have learned from them is this, if you think there is only one way to do anything, then you have learned nothing. I normally stay out of these kinds of threads, because I see them as pointless. Try describing the color blue to a blind man, sam ting. Here is the reality, your arguments are circular and counter productive. No one has said anything bad about Mr. Tatum, or Clyde. Have you heard Mr. Tatum say anything of the things you claim? If he was the one true heir, why did he not try to claim the throne? I am willing to bet it is because he is happy with what he is doing. If he wanted the throne, he would not have left the IKKA. One last point, those that I have talked to that were close to Mr. Parker, are still teaching on his behalf.

Preach Brother. Amen.

[KenpoRonin]

Hmmm. Funny you should bring up the "falling out." Maybe Mr. Parker changed his mind about Mr. Tatum?

I'm sure that he changed his mind about Tatum, I pretty sure though he didn't use his MIB mind erase tool and take away what he had taught him.

[KenpoRonin]

Actually if you just said "Tatum is ONE of the best" I'd wholeheartedly agree with you as well. All of the snide remarks and the "Tatum is THE greatest" stuff is the issue. Also posting the same article with 3 names repeatedly and disregarding...

1) The "Big Fallout" between Mr. Parker and Mr. Tatum.

2) The other two names on that list.

3) the others named as proteges after Tatum's "leaving"

....doesn't help your "argument"

No one is "combating" your argument it's dismantling itself by your own posted contraditions and leaving out "key" pieces of the history that refute your claim. Your opinon cannot be debated. But the partial facts you present and then alter with your subjective thoughts can. NO ONE'S opinion can be presented as fact, period.

Forgive me for "picking apart" your arguments. It's not personal, it's just what I do from working with/within Law Enforcement, Private Sector Security and Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences. Statements that A) contradict themselves, B) have "logical jumps" or "sequencial gaps" and C) are pure speculation stand out to me in my lines of work and areas of study.

My Ideas about Chapel are the following..

1) Moves cleanly, 2) open and approachable, 3) displays knowledge that few others have (it's been argued that NO others have)

My ideas about Tatum are as follows..

1) Moves cleanly (it has been argued even cleaner than Mr. Parker), 2) open and approachable, 3) displays knowledge that few others have.

Same ideas but with slight differences which is why I call them both SOME of the best.

P.S. Also as you highlighted youself the article mentions "children lost as successors" but Mr. Parker specfically used the word protege which has a much different meaning. A protege can become a successor but is not one. And there were again at least 3 at that given time who knows what happened in the next 11 years.

P.P.S. Two of my most respected martial artists are Mike Lambert and Lee Epperson whom I consider a great friend. Both are with LTKKA. In other words, it has nothing to do with your "line" or my thoughts of Mr. Tatum. Just the claim of Tatum's supremacy in the kenpo realm.

Ok I said there is one person with more of the system than the rest. I offer that it is Tatum. I offer some evidence for my claim. YOU just made a claim for Chapel being one of the best, I don't the man but other than him I don't see anyone else touting him. I have the Journey, he really isn't mentioned. Trajo mentions him referring one of his matches and that is usually what I hear. People say the saw him around. Where is your evidence?

I will agree that Mike and Lee are great Kenpoist and very much enjoy the time on the mat I have shared with them. They are two on my short list of people who I would train under.

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I'm sure that he changed his mind about Tatum, I pretty sure though he didn't use his MIB mind erase tool and take away what he had taught him.

So is it the knowledge that Mr. Parker gave or is it what Mr. Parker thought that matters?

1) Mr. parker gave the same knowledge to alot of people (at least 3 if we stick with the article circa 1979).

2) Your main "hard evidence" to this point has been "Mr. Parker said this about Mr. Tatum! Mr. Parker said he was the successor! Mr. Parker said he was the Key Protege!" Now someone mentioned that Mr. Parker may have retracted those sentiments and you disregard it with the above quoted comment. That again negates much of what you've said already. It's another circular, self-defeating statement.

Let's just leave it at "Mr. Hoff thinks that Mr. Tatum is the greatest Martial Artist alive". No one can ever dispute solely what you think. And if Mr. Hoff thought that Mr. Tatum was ONE of the greatest martial artists alive this whole board would "validate" your thoughts.

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Ok I said there is one person with more of the system than the rest. I offer that it is Tatum. I offer some evidence for my claim. YOU just made a claim for Chapel being one of the best, I don't the man but other than him I don't see anyone else touting him. I have the Journey, he really isn't mentioned. Trajo mentions him referring one of his matches and that is usually what I hear. People say the saw him around. Where is your evidence?

I will agree that Mike and Lee are great Kenpoist and very much enjoy the time on the mat I have shared with them. They are two on my short list of people who I would train under.

My evidence? look at Chapel's pictures in the infinite insights series (in which Mr. Parker was the author and chose who he wanted to include in his own instructional books) and then find Mr. Tatum's pictures there.

Next question?

P.S. I gather that you just don't like Mr. Chapel because no one has said ANYTHING negative about Mr. Tatum but you keep "questioning" Mr. Chapel.

I also noticed that you ignored the post where I said "you would get my vote" for being a good kenpoist because you train with Clyde. Perhaps it wasn't convienent to admit I complimented you despite disagreeing with your viewpoints?

[Kenpodoc]

Ok I said there is one person with more of the system than the rest. I offer that it is Tatum. I offer some evidence for my claim. YOU just made a claim for Chapel being one of the best, I don't the man but other than him I don't see anyone else touting him. I have the Journey, he really isn't mentioned. Trajo mentions him referring one of his matches and that is usually what I hear. People say the saw him around. Where is your evidence?

I will agree that Mike and Lee are great Kenpoist and very much enjoy the time on the mat I have shared with them. They are two on my short list of people who I would train under.Both Ron Chapel and Tom Kelly were voted to be in the Journey but were not included for technical reasons. At least that is what Edmund Parker(jr) told me.

Jeff

[KenpoRonin]

So is it the knowledge that Mr. Parker gave or is it what Mr. Parker thought that matters?

1) Mr. parker gave the same knowledge to alot of people (at least 3 if we stick with the article circa 1979).

2) Your main "hard evidence" to this point has been "Mr. Parker said this about Mr. Tatum! Mr. Parker said he was the successor! Mr. Parker said he was the Key Protege!" Now someone mentioned that Mr. Parker may have retracted those sentiments and you disregard it with the above quoted comment. That again negates much of what you've said already. It's another circular, self-defeating statement.

Let's just leave it at "Mr. Hoff thinks that Mr. Tatum is the greatest Martial Artist alive". No one can ever dispute solely what you think. And if Mr. Hoff thought that Mr. Tatum was ONE of the greatest martial artists alive this whole board would "validate" your thoughts.

Spinning can be fun, so can sarcasm. My claim has been that Tatum has more of the system than any other. I have made other statements, some opinions based on facts others are the evidence that I used to come to conclusions. I am not saying NO ONE ELSE HAS ANY INFORMATION.

If Harvard has the best business school in the country, that doesn’t mean you can’t go to North Western. You still have bragging rights. You just didn’t graduate from “The Best” hell you could have gotten C’s at Harvard and another person got A’s at NW. Of course if you go to UCSB, you really have no right bragging where you went. Or for that Matter UNLV.

[KenpoRonin]

I also noticed that you ignored the post where I said "you would get my vote" for being a good kenpoist because you train with Clyde. Perhaps it wasn't convienent to admit I complimented you despite disagreeing with your viewpoints?

Sorry, just when you constantly are being slam and given a token complament, you tend to ignore it or miss it.

Sincerly Thanks though

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Sorry, just when you constantly are being slam and given a token complament, you tend to ignore it or miss it.

Sincerly Thanks though

I'm honestly not slamming you. Your argument is just flawed. That's it. no personal bias, no agendas, no ill-will. You just are not presenting a logical argument and are contradicting yourself alot. And I'm not the only one saying that. It appears to be a rather general consensus unless what you said about the general public is truly what you believe(the part about them being idiots).

there's an old philosophy that goes "if a lot of people are saying the same thing and they don't know each other it just may be true" Alot of people on this board are telling you the same things I am, and most of them, save one, have never met me.

Food for thought.

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Of course if you go to UCSB, you really have no right bragging where you went. Or for that Matter UNLV.

Yes, you do have bragging rights as the majority of the popualtion still does not possess a degree of any kind. And a degree is an achievement which entails bragging rights. But that's my opinon as there is no standard for bragging rights

[KenpoRonin]

I'm honestly not slamming you. Your argument is just flawed. That's it. no personal bias, no agendas, no ill-will. You just are not presenting a logical argument and are contradicting yourself alot. And I'm not the only one saying that. It appears to be a rather general consensus unless what you said about the general public is truly what you believe(the part about them being idiots).

there's an old philosophy that goes "if a lot of people are saying the same thing and they don't know each other it just may be true" Alot of people on this board are telling you the same things I am, and most of them save one Have never met me.

Food for thought.

As is yours. General consensus is often wrong.
Abe Lincoln was an extremely unpopular president in his time, yet we know him to be one of the (not the) best Presidents we ever had. WWII was very unpopular before we were attacked, but we went in because we were attacked, not because it was popular or the right thing to do. Jesus was killed for blasphemy by a large number of people… Stalin was a hero in the early twenties and thirties. And yes I am saying that general public are idiots. Your average IQ is 100. That is not a good score to have. 87 is borderline retardation.

"if a lot of people are saying the same thing and they don't know each other it just may be true" Or they can all be wrong. OJ had twelve let him off, Back Street Boys Sold millions of albums, and there are millions in Europe and the Middle East that think the USA is the great Satan.

As for people supporting arguements, I get private emails full of encouragement. They just choose not to post and these people have never met me either.

[Doc]

Yes, you do have bragging rights as the majority of the popualtion still does not possess a degree of any kind. And a degree is an achievement which entails bragging rights. But that's my opinon as there is no standard for bragging rights
Consider the sources. Clearly this is a case of 'troll by proxies,' and the only reason my name ws brought into it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I suggest you let them have it, but we also know where it comes from, so as I began with, "consider the source." Then you'll recognize it's all about pulling the chain, and making sense is clearly not the purpose. The only reason I responded initially is the intentional use of my name, and to place things in perspective. But if you understand the source, its all about discrediting, not crediting, nor the content. Letem' be please.

[KenpoRonin]

Consider the sources. Clearly this is a case of 'troll by proxies,' and the only reason my name ws brought into it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I suggest you let them have it, but we also know where it comes from, so as I began with, "consider the source." Then you'll recognize it's all about pulling the chain, and making sense is clearly not the purpose. The only reason I responded initially is the intentional use of my name, and to place things in perspective. But if you understand the source, its all about discrediting, not crediting, nor the content. Letem' be please.

What are you talking about? Your name was not mentioned here. He was responding to me putting myself down for only getting a degree from UNLV.

[hongkongfooey]

Why did Larry Tatum and Ed Parker have a falling out? What was the reason?

[Carol]

None taken. I totally agree with what you said. Parker didn't want just one person to have the information, but he wanted loyal people to have the information.

Cool.



There is then the question of who were the loyal people who also had enough time to spend with Parker on the mats. I am talking about hours of mat time. I know from personal experience that my growth has slowed because I chose instructor that is not in the same town as me.

That's a good question and one that I'm not well versed enough to answer. Who would have had enough time to spend with Mr. Parker, along with how they learned/processed the information, and how much time was spent teaching his student new material they didn't know vs. taking what his student did know and refining it further, why the student was being taught what they were when they were.



There is something about spending time with your instructor on a daily basis as apposed to a few times a year


I'd say agreed...perhaps I should say I'll take your word for it. That is one of the many challenges, is it not? Migrating to where instead of maximizing your growth in regular class with lots of attention, you are trying to maximize your growth on your own. It does not sound easy :)

[KenpoRonin]

Why did Larry Tatum and Ed Parker have a falling out? What was the reason?

I have heard many rumours, but it usually has to do with Business. I have heard many others. I have heard about sexual misconduct, but that is usually from people who use it to discredit him. One thing I will say for Tatum, I have never heard him say anything mean about anyone, even when he had every reason to and in a private coversation. Tatum would never make it as a rapper.

[Carol]

Both Ron Chapel and Tom Kelly were voted to be in the Journey but were not included for technical reasons. At least that is what Edmund Parker(jr) told me.

Jeff

For what it's worth, I was told the same from Mr. Conatser.

[Carol]

I have heard many rumours, but it usually has to do with Business. I have heard many others. I have heard about sexual misconduct, but that is usually from people who use it to discredit him. One thing I will say for Tatum, I have never heard him say anything mean about anyone, even when he had every reason to and in a private coversation. Tatum would never make it as a rapper.

Mr. Tatum was also getting to be well known in the Pasadena area among non-MA folks. He was very active with the police department and at town meetings, etc.He was also getting to be well known within the MA community. His close proximity to Mr. Parker (plus his knowledge) made him an easy pick for interviews. His good looks probably did not hurt his popularity. All stuff that really gets yer mojo working for breaking out with your own business...even if that was not the original intent.

Sometimes the chips fall the right way for good things to happen.

[Ray]

My claim has been that Tatum has more of the system than any other. I have made other statements, some opinions based on facts others are the evidence that I used to come to conclusions. I am not saying NO ONE ELSE HAS ANY INFORMATION.

I'm not sure that you're qualifed to judge between Tatum, Planas, Kelly, Chapel, etc. insofar as their mastery of kenpo is concerned.

You can read an old magazine article and spin it anyway you want; that don't make it so.

[KenpoRonin]

I'm not sure that you're qualifed to judge between Tatum, Planas, Kelly, Chapel, etc. insofar as their mastery of kenpo is concerned.

You can read an old magazine article and spin it anyway you want; that don't make it so.

I am not sure that you're qualified to judge whether or not I am qualifed to judge....

[evenflow1121]

Mike they all are. I mean so long as the student goes in and accomplishes his goals through the instructor. All those guys are teaching the correct system, to say that the correct system lies in a 24 technique curriculum (which I studied) or the 16 which someone else may have in my opinion is erroneous. The true system in my humble opinion lies in its mechanics and principles of motion. You may study techniques your entire life, and may know how to execute each technique in a classroom setting blind folded, while standing on one foot and with one hand touching your nose. Still you may just get into a fight out in the real world and not be able to execute that one technique, because the setting is different, but hey your movements as you blocked the attack and struck your assailant were based on the principles of motion you studied as a kenpoist and guess what, you took his ass down. So who is teaching the right system, all those guys they are all teaching it correctly, their approach may be different, but the basic principles are the same.

[KenpoRonin]

Mike they all are. I mean so long as the student goes in and accomplishes his goals through the instructor. All those guys are teaching the correct system, to say that the correct system lies in a 24 technique curriculum (which I studied) or the 16 which someone else may have in my opinion is erroneous. The true system in my humble opinion lies in its mechanics and principles of motion. You may study techniques your entire life, and may know how to execute each technique in a classroom setting blind folded, while standing on one foot and with one hand touching your nose. Still you may just get into a fight out in the real world and not be able to execute that one technique, because the setting is different, but hey your movements as you blocked the attack and struck your assailant were based on the principles of motion you studied as a kenpoist and guess what, you took his ass down. So who is teaching the right system, all those guys they are all teaching it correctly, their approach may be different, but the basic principles are the same.

I see all these instructors changing things. They take out Forms and Sets. The remove, alter, add or change techniques. At what point does all this change, make it no longer EPAK? If I don't teach certain techniques or the Yellow Belt? What if I change 20% of the techniques? Am I still teaching the system?

[Kenpojujitsu3]

As is yours. General consensus is often wrong.
Abe Lincoln was an extremely unpopular president in his time, yet we know him to be one of the (not the) best Presidents we ever had. WWII was very unpopular before we were attacked, but we went in because we were attacked, not because it was popular or the right thing to do. Jesus was killed for blasphemy by a large number of people… Stalin was a hero in the early twenties and thirties. And yes I am saying that general public are idiots. Your average IQ is 100. That is not a good score to have. 87 is borderline retardation.

"if a lot of people are saying the same thing and they don't know each other it just may be true" Or they can all be wrong. OJ had twelve let him off, Back Street Boys Sold millions of albums, and there are millions in Europe and the Middle East that think the USA is the great Satan.

As for people supporting arguements, I get private emails full of encouragement. They just choose not to post and these people have never met me either.

the "general consensus" was actually a device you used earlier when you said


Now these questions are subjective to a degree, but have generally accepted answers.


which is why I used it. So you disproved another one of your devices for argument. Bait, hook, throw it back.

I've you get PM's then these people also know how to give rep points so perhaps you're rep would be higher if that were the case. My opinion is that the bolded statement may not be true but may be smoke and mirrors.

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I see all these instructors changing things. They take out Forms and Sets. The remove, alter, add or change techniques. At what point does all this change, make it no longer EPAK? If I don't teach certain techniques or the Yellow Belt? What if I change 20% of the techniques? Am I still teaching the system?

I actually agree with you here, if you change too much it's no longer EPAK. But is it still efective? that's what really matters. Not, did Parker give it his stamp of approval. I practice Ju Jitsu and the stuff works but Parker didn't have his hands on it.

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I am not sure that you're qualified to judge whether or not I am qualifed to judge....

OK other than beeing a First Black from someone and then defecting to Clyde what are your qualifications? What are your experieces with the other seniors that makes you think what you think about Tatum by comparison. How much time have you spent on the mats with Planas, Palanzo, Mills, Chapel, Tom Kelly, Conatser, Tanaka, Cogliandro, Liles, Lerouz, Muhammed, Donnie Williams, Brian Hawkins, Velez, Sean Kelley, Speakman, Pick, Trejo, etc.

What are your experiences with any one from their camps. You yourself said earlier that you've spent limited time with Tatum but alot of time with Clyde. So you don't even have much first hand experience with Tatum self-admittedly unless you'd like to retract that statement too.

[Doc]

I actually agree with you here, if you change too much it's no longer EPAK. But is it still efective? that's what really matters. Not, did Parker give it his stamp of approval. I practice Ju Jitsu and the stuff works but Parker didn't have his hands on it.
Its important to remember James, that Parker only had ONE COMPLETED SYSTEM, and that was his conceptual commercial system based on motion. Everythng else was either defunct from his perspective, or a work in progress. Claims to teaching this 'system,' complete or not, is no claim to fame, considering its conceptual interpretive nature which allows and encourages personal interpretations and tailoring. Some will be good at it, and others, well ....

[Kenpojujitsu3]

One thing I will say for Tatum, I have never heard him say anything mean about anyone, even when he had every reason to and in a private coversation....

perhaps we might follow this example then if we choose him as our martial arts icon??

Just a thought.

[KenpoRonin]

the "general consensus" was actually a device you used earlier when you said




which is why I used it. So you disproved another one of your devices for argument. Bait, hook, throw it back.

I've you get PM's then these people also know how to give rep points so perhaps you're rep would be higher if that were the case. My opinion is that the bolded statement may not be true but may be smoke and mirrors.

I had already detracted that statement, based on the "idiot factor". What I should have said is generally accepted among those knowledgeable on such subjects.

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Its important to remember James, that Parker only had ONE COMPLETED SYSTEM, and that was his conceptual commercial system based on motion. Everythng else was either defunct from his perspective, or a work in progress. Claims to teaching this 'system,' complete or not, is no claim to fame, considering its conceptual interpretive nature which allows and encourages personal interpretations and tailoring. Some will be good at it, and others, well ....

Exactly Sir, which why I hang so little importance on what it's called when compared to if it works. The things you showed me and explained to me work. The things the Mills camp taught me work. The things the Planas Camp taught me work. The things the Tatum camp taught me work. I'm ready to hang my hat up on this one. By observing 1) that someone's every post is only on this topic and 2) all the snide remarks, 3) circle talk and 4) general lack of what should be common knowledge of kenpo history lets me know that there is an agenda here. I've just been having too much fun taking recent posts and cross-referencing them with past posts that are the direct opposite. And it amazes me that when I post nothing but the person's own words I get "nice spin on things" as an answer. Comical I tell ya.

P.S. Please tell Miguel that his "brothers" said hi.

[KenpoRonin]

OK other than beeing a First Black from someone and then defecting to Clyde what are your qualifications? What are your experieces with the other seniors that makes you think what you think about Tatum by comparison. How much time have you spent on the mats with Planas, Palanzo, Mills, Chapel, Tom Kelly, Conatser, Tanaka, Cogliandro, Liles, Lerouz, Muhammed, Donnie Williams, Brian Hawkins, Velez, Sean Kelley, Speakman, Pick, Trejo, etc.

What are your experiences with any one from their camps. You yourself said earlier that you've spent limited time with Tatum but alot of time with Clyde. So you don't even have much first hand experience with Tatum self-admittedly unless you'd like to retract that statement too.

Planas (Two siminars) Palanzo 0, Mills(0 but had an instructor who was under him for several years), Chapel 0, Tom Kelly (1 siminar and was the first time I saw the majic of Kenpo), Conatser (0 but had instructor who spent several years under him), Tanaka0, Cogliandro 0, Liles 0, Lerouz 0, Muhammed 0, Donnie Williams 0 , Brian Hawkins0 , Velez 0, Sean Kelley (one hour), Speakman (3 siminars), Pick 0 but have a close friend who is under him, Trejo one siminar, Sepulveda (8 siminars) La Bounty (30 hours and under one of his guys for 5 years) and 4 hours between Mike and Lee there in Maryland, Which I got more from than most all the others combined. I have also had a semenar with Tommy Chavies, great guy, also on my short list.

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Planas (Two siminars) Palanzo 0, Mills(0 but had an instructor who was under him for several years), Chapel 0, Tom Kelly (1 siminar and was the first time I saw the majic of Kenpo), Conatser (0 but had instructor who spent several years under him), Tanaka0, Cogliandro 0, Liles 0, Lerouz 0, Muhammed 0, Donnie Williams 0 , Brian Hawkins0 , Velez 0, Sean Kelley (one hour), Speakman (3 siminars), Pick 0 but have a close friend who is under him, Trejo one siminar, Sepulveda (8 siminars) La Bounty (30 hours and under one of his guys for 5 years) and 4 hours between Mike and Lee there in Maryland, Which I got more from than most all the others combined. I have also had a semenar with Tommy Chavies, great guy, also on my short list.

Man that's a lot of zeros and one time deals for proclaiming someone as THE best. That's my only point.

[KenpoRonin]

Man that's a lot of zeros and one time deals for proclaiming someone as THE best. That's my only point.

Well Many of these people I have seen at camps, but they choose not to teach, so what can I say, if they choose not to teach, to share there knowledge, how can I consider them? There are many others I didn't put, I forget all who I have seen, many are not very memorable.

[KenpoRonin]

Man that's a lot of zeros and one time deals for proclaiming someone as THE best. That's my only point.

Ok wait I am going to completely change everything, I retract it all... I know I am going to get a lot of grief for this, but to be true to myself I am going to come forth. Tatum is not the most knowledgeable man in Kenpo. It is this Man.http://www.arnis.org/home_study/home_study.htm

He has come up with no wait I will use his words...

These manuals - over 1800 pages - constitute the most authoritative written instructions ever written on American Kenpo Karate. Every technique, from yellow belt to 3rd degree black belt, is described in detail. These manuals cover all of the concepts, principles and theories utilized in each of the self defense techniques. A favorite for most American Kenpo Instructors - a must for all Kenpo libraries.

No wait there is more


This course is the first complete American Kenpo Home Study Course that available on the the world. This course is designed to be simple enough for beginners to learn from, but intense enough for instructors to enhance their learning. This is the course that so many have attempted to duplicate. This course is used by students and instructors throughout the world. This program teaches all of the concepts, principles and theories utilized in all of the self defense techniques, forms and sets. There is a great deal of background and history included with the instruction of the self defense techniques. This course includes 27 video tapes covering all of the concept, principles, theories, basics in order to completely understand the self-defense material, forms and sets required for belt advancement. A 600 page manual is also included to act as a guide and workbook for the students. Students involved in this home study course get guidance, free rank testing and certification from the American Kenpo Legacy Association Headquarters.

How can you criticize me for touting Tatum when you claim to have the most authoritative system in the world! Talk about a hypocrite!!

[Doc]

In the world of business, when someone is attempting to sell you something, this 'elogation of the facts' are subject to interpretation and are called 'puffery.' Such is the way of statements made in magazines and articles or even internet web sites for publicity, noteriety, and commercialism expressly with the intent to "sell something.' Words and phrases like; the greatest, biggest, best, fastest, longest lasting, most extensive, unequaled and yes even protegé, etc are banded about with no more assurance of absolute fact than any other saleman hawking goods. Mr. Parker was the ultimate martial arts salesman of the ultimate commercial martial arts system and others including, your personal martial arts savior have simply followed his lead. Some do however, with much more class than others. Some have nothing to sell at all. caveat emptor.

[evenflow1121]

I see all these instructors changing things. They take out Forms and Sets. The remove, alter, add or change techniques. At what point does all this change, make it no longer EPAK? If I don't teach certain techniques or the Yellow Belt? What if I change 20% of the techniques? Am I still teaching the system?

If you are still teaching the mechanics and movements, the principles of Kenpo then I say yes. Sure it may not be orthodox, and by that I mean it may not be what most of us are used to seeing today, but the principles would still be there. I may be wrong and if I am I am sure people will correct me, and by this I dont mean that the techniques are less important, they are important, but in my opinion the foundation of kenpo is not the techniques, but the principles behind them.

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Ok wait I am going to completely change everything, I retract it all... I know I am going to get a lot of grief for this, but to be true to myself I am going to come forth. Tatum is not the most knowledgeable man in Kenpo. It is this Man.http://www.arnis.org/home_study/home_study.htm

He has come up with no wait I will use his words...

These manuals - over 1800 pages - constitute the most authoritative written instructions ever written on American Kenpo Karate. Every technique, from yellow belt to 3rd degree black belt, is described in detail. These manuals cover all of the concepts, principles and theories utilized in each of the self defense techniques. A favorite for most American Kenpo Instructors - a must for all Kenpo libraries.

No wait there is more


This course is the first complete American Kenpo Home Study Course that available on the the world. This course is designed to be simple enough for beginners to learn from, but intense enough for instructors to enhance their learning. This is the course that so many have attempted to duplicate. This course is used by students and instructors throughout the world. This program teaches all of the concepts, principles and theories utilized in all of the self defense techniques, forms and sets. There is a great deal of background and history included with the instruction of the self defense techniques. This course includes 27 video tapes covering all of the concept, principles, theories, basics in order to completely understand the self-defense material, forms and sets required for belt advancement. A 600 page manual is also included to act as a guide and workbook for the students. Students involved in this home study course get guidance, free rank testing and certification from the American Kenpo Legacy Association Headquarters.

How can you criticize me for touting Tatum when you claim to have the most authoritative system in the world! Talk about a hypocrite!!



Uuuuuuuh you mean most authoritative "system of learning" as in "best instructional MATERIALS." Duh...... it's an ad for a product, would you rather it said "second best on the market" or "ranked number 3 in it's category." It's supposed to sell something. Did you sign up with Clyde because he said "come to LTKKA we're number two?" Have you come to this board proclaiming "Larry Tatum is 4th best on the planet".

Notice it says "program" and "course" and "manuals". Not "best system of martial arts" or "best instructor" or "we move the best". The ads imply "best products for learning kenpo" not "best people teaching or practicing kenpo". There is a clear difference.

Also Kenpo isn't even the only system advertised on the site. There are two more as well but you didn't mention that part.

Maybe you buy cars because JD Power and Associates ranked them as last in their class and the ads tell you this? I doubt it.

As Clyde would say "Captain Obvious again". Duuuuuh!

Thanks for the free advertising though, and you even included a link how thoughtful!

From my associations site

"The American Kenpo Legacy Association has made available several Home Study Programs from which to study and obtain rank and certification. Our Home Study Programs allow you to obtain legitimate rank, recognized by other Kenpo Associations. Nothing can replace studying directly under a competent instructor. However, this is the best Home Study Course available if you are unable to find a local Kenpo School. Our system is used by many School owners, association heads, students and instructors. Check below for the program that is right for you:"

Notice no mention of US, just our product.

[KenpoRonin]

Uuuuuuuh you mean most authoritative "system of learning" as in "best instructional MATERIALS."


1800 pages - constitute the most authoritative written instructions ever written on American Kenpo Karate.

That doesn’t sound like your pushing just a system of learning, That sounds like you are claiming to be the most authoritative on American Kenpo using writing as your medium.


Duh...... it's an ad for a product, would you rather it said "second best on the market" or "ranked number 3 in it's category." It's supposed to sell something.

No I would rather you just be honest. If yours in not something you shouldn’t make that claim. It reminds me a lot of those fake diet pills tauting miracle results. Why don’t you just add that if you take this course, your hair will grow back, you will become taller and chicks will dig you.


Did you sign up with Clyde because he said "come to LTKKA we're number two?" Have you come to this board proclaiming "Larry Tatum is 4th best on the planet".

No they didn’t have to sell me on their system, no words, they just showed me what they did and I knew that was what I wanted.


Notice it says "program" and "course" and "manuals". Not "best system of martial arts" or "best instructor" or "we move the best". The ads imply "best products for learning kenpo" not "best people teaching or practicing kenpo". There is a clear difference.


This program teaches all of the concepts, principles and theories utilized in all of the self defense techniques, forms and sets. There is a great deal of background and history included with the instruction of the self defense techniques. This course includes 27 video tapes covering all of the concept, principles, theories, basics in order to completely understand the self-defense material, forms and sets required for belt advancement.

Yea sure it doesn’t say those things, but it still makes some pretty bold statements.
If your program does ALL that you say it does, I will never have to travel for a lesson again. All there is to Kenpo in a nice little package.


Also Kenpo isn't even the only system advertised on the site. There are two more as well but you didn't mention that part.

I could care less about the other systems that’s why.


Maybe you buy cars because JD Power and Associates ranked them as last in their class and the ads tell you this? I doubt it.

First of all JD Power doesn’t sell the cars they push, So using your argument, which non-partisan third party with an authority endorsed your product? And if you say Chapel I will puke. Actually if it such an authoritative source on Kenpo does it also have the SL4 in it as well; because if it doesn’t Ron, there you go next big money maker. I got some friends who shoot videos so let me know.$$$$


As Clyde would say "Captain Obvious again". Duuuuuh!

He may say that, but I am sure he wouldn’t be saying it here.


Thanks for the free advertising though, and you even included a link how thoughtful!

Hey no problem glad I could be of service.

[Bode]

First of all JD Power doesn’t sell the cars they push, So using your argument, which non-partisan third party with an authority endorsed your product? And if you say Chapel I will puke. Actually if it such an authoritative source on Kenpo does it also have the SL4 in it as well; because if it doesn’t Ron, there you go next big money maker. I got some friends who shoot videos so let me know.$$$$


Now you're just being an *******. Chapel is not part of this conversation yet you insist on bring him back up and, of course, with negative overtones and connotations. I suppose that when you have no other recourse, backbiting is the fallback... backs up against the wall, keep pushing.

[evenflow1121]

Not that I would ever have to speak for the man, but time and time again on this forum, Mr. Chapel has stated that he is not a fan of video training. Bringing Mr. Chapel into this conversation the way you are is in bad taste.

[Kenpojujitsu3]

.....First of all JD Power doesn’t sell the cars they push, So using your argument, which non-partisan third party with an authority endorsed your product? And if you say Chapel I will puke. Actually if it such an authoritative source on Kenpo does it also have the SL4 in it as well; because if it doesn’t Ron, there you go next big money maker. I got some friends who shoot videos so let me know.$$$$....

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. The usual, no intelligent rebutal available so you fall back to insults, even stooping so low as to pull someone in that wasn't even involved :rofl: . Ah well how trite. Since you're so fond of Mr. Tatum and use what Mr. Parker said as the crutch here are a few more Mr. Parker favorites.

"Those who criticize are usually covering up their own incompetence."

"When one knows his subject, fear of verbally answering is not a problem."

"Unsubstantiated judgment of others can lead to paths of sorrow."

"Jerks are those who display qualities of insecurity."

"Use logic and common sense at all times."

"All men, no matter who they are or how much they know, can share their knowledge with others."

"A "winner" compliments others. A "loser" condemns."

"It is not the aim of Kenpo to merely produce a skillful as well as powerful practitioner, but to create a well integrated student respectful of all."

-- Ed Parker Zen of Kenpo

Alas, this is old I'll not support you sullying Mr. Tatum's name any further with your lack of class while representing him. My involvement in this thread is over.

:feedtroll

[KenpoRonin]

Not that I would ever have to speak for the man, but time and time again on this forum, Mr. Chapel has stated that he is not a fan of video training. Bringing Mr. Chapel into this conversation the way you are is in bad taste.

If that is the case I offer a sincere apology to you, Mr. Chapel. Actually my intent was to keep you out of the argument, by bringing you up. If your opinion is as this person claims, then we are in agreement. Sorry.

[KenpoRonin]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. The usual, no intelligent rebutal available so you fall back to insults, even stooping so low as to pull someone in that wasn't even involved :rofl: . Ah well how trite. Since you're so fond of Mr. Tatum and use what Mr. Parker said as the crutch here are a few more Mr. Parker favorites.

"Those who criticize are usually covering up their own incompetence."

"When one knows his subject, fear of verbally answering is not a problem."

"Unsubstantiated judgment of others can lead to paths of sorrow."

"Jerks are those who display qualities of insecurity."

"Use logic and common sense at all times."

"All men, no matter who they are or how much they know, can share their knowledge with others."

"A "winner" compliments others. A "loser" condemns."

"It is not the aim of Kenpo to merely produce a skillful as well as powerful practitioner, but to create a well integrated student respectful of all."

-- Ed Parker Zen of Kenpo

Alas, this is old I'll not support you sullying Mr. Tatum's name any further with your lack of class while representing him. My involvement in this thread is over.

:feedtroll

As for you , when you have no point you go right back to the respect issue. I shouldn't expect any more of an arguement from you, I don't know why I bother with you.

I guess I consider it practice for when I get married. I need to be able to argue against anything.

[Kenpodoc]

I have also had a semenar with Tommy Chavies, great guy, also on my short list.Tommy Chavies, moves well, faster than any Human being has a right to be, fluid, powerful and explosive. I really enjoyed the one seminar I had with him. You do realize who taught him is superb basics don't you?

Jeff

[KenpoRonin]

Tommy Chavies, moves well, faster than any Human being has a right to be, fluid, powerful and explosive. I really enjoyed the one seminar I had with him. You do realize who taught him is superb basics don't you?

Jeff

Yes I do and yes he is. I have also shared the mats with his students and more importly he can also teach what he does. That is why I said he is on my short list.

[hongkongfooey]

Tommy Chavies, moves well, faster than any Human being has a right to be, fluid, powerful and explosive. I really enjoyed the one seminar I had with him. You do realize who taught him is superb basics don't you?

Jeff

Isn't Mr. Chavies a product of Doc?

[hongkongfooey]

Now you're just being an a*&hole. Chapel is not part of this conversation yet you insist on bring him back up and, of course, with negative overtones and connotations. I suppose that when you have no other recourse, backbiting is the fallback... backs up against the wall, keep pushing.


Doc was a constant target of Clyde and Robert when they were here. They mainly hounded him about his degrees. This type of nonsense(personal attacks) is the main reason so many seniors no longer post over @ KN.

[John Bishop]

Moderators Note:
This thread is again starting to get off topic, and going back to personal attacks or name calling.
So that we do not have to lock this thread, or be forced to suspend any members, I'm going to make one simple request.

If you disagree with anything in this thread, attack the statement or argument, not the person making it.

Myself, and I think many of the other members would like to read what it is about a certain senior that makes them stand out in your mind as a good teacher, technician, and demonstrator. Instead of reading who was in or out, or who got the "whole" system. A few mpegs of the seniors performing would also go a long way in showing "who moves" well.

[Kenpodoc]

Isn't Mr. Chavies a product of Doc?Yup.

[Flying Crane]

Clearly there will be no agreement here. Instead of rehashing the same arguments over and over, maybe someone who has been heavily involved in this thread could extend an Olive Branch, offer to Agree to Disagree, and everyone could move on with their lives...

[KenpoDave]

Snippet: Ed Parker "doesn't give a damn about beautiful form"

Quote:
"A lot of kenpo instructors are searching," he said. "I'm not saying I have all the answers, but I haven't stuck to tradition. When you stick to tradition, you're bound. You're bound to see only what is in that realm of knowl- edge."

It is just this rejection of tradition that has led the kenpoist to the second secret of his system, a concept based on the age-old premise that the end justifies the means.

"When I teach, I want effects," Parker said. "If a punch comes, if you block it and you look lazy, as long as you block it, that's alii care about. I don't give a damn about going down with beautiful form.

"I was talking like this twenty years ago when I was a no-good-for-nothing rebel. I'm a street fighter. I'm a realist. I've seen guys go into a fight and bite {the other) guy's nose off. And knowing that his nose is gone, he still hits! He's an animal.

Hmm, I don't read this as him not giving a damn about beautiful form, but rather that practicality comes first. As always, form follows function.

We could get into a debate over what "form" actually is, though. Personally, I consider good form to be correct form. So, if the form is bad, the movement is not correct. Now, you may still accomplish your goal of the moment of winning the fight. But fighting is often all about adrenaline and mental attitude. Kenpo is about more than that, isn't it?

[Ray]

Systems are created for certain reasons. A simple example is the "closed loop feedback" system for central air/heating systems (thermostats). A classic and more complex system is described in "My System" by Aaron Nimzovich (it's a treatise on chess). It is not so much the system that is the holy grail, it is more of what we want our system to do for us that is the reason for of the system.

Upon this general framework called kenpo, we can build skyscrapers or oil rigs. And each has it's place. If we are architects of better ways to do our kenpo, then it is foolish to ignore what any senior has to offer.

One senior does his kenpo this way and another that way...learn as many as you can.

Here's a dumb story that has no bearing on this subject at all: When you want to bolt something to a concrete floor (wall or masonary), there are several ways to do it; one way is an anchor bolt (hilti or ramset). to use these anchor bolts, you drill a hole and then pound the bolt into it...when you tighten the nut, it grips and doesn't come out. Most places I've been, when the bolts are no longer needed, they are sawed off close to the ground with a hacksaw...one old-timer maintenance guy at a particular place said "drill the holes longer than needed"...later, when the bolts weren't needed, he took the nuts off and hit the top of the bolt once with a sledge hammer---the bolt went in and was flush with the floor. Wow, no stubby little thing sticking up out of the floor. Boy, it's nice to have more than one way to take care of that problem. There's other ways besides anchor bolts to affix something to concrete (or masonary), it's just a matter of which one works for what you want.

[KenpoRonin]

Systems are created for certain reasons. A simple example is the "closed loop feedback" system for central air/heating systems (thermostats). A classic and more complex system is described in "My System" by Aaron Nimzovich (it's a treatise on chess). It is not so much the system that is the holy grail, it is more of what we want our system to do for us that is the reason for of the system.

Upon this general framework called kenpo, we can build skyscrapers or oil rigs. And each has it's place. If we are architects of better ways to do our kenpo, then it is foolish to ignore what any senior has to offer.

One senior does his kenpo this way and another that way...learn as many as you can.

Here's a dumb story that has no bearing on this subject at all: When you want to bolt something to a concrete floor (wall or masonary), there are several ways to do it; one way is an anchor bolt (hilti or ramset). to use these anchor bolts, you drill a hole and then pound the bolt into it...when you tighten the nut, it grips and doesn't come out. Most places I've been, when the bolts are no longer needed, they are sawed off close to the ground with a hacksaw...one old-timer maintenance guy at a particular place said "drill the holes longer than needed"...later, when the bolts weren't needed, he took the nuts off and hit the top of the bolt once with a sledge hammer---the bolt went in and was flush with the floor. Wow, no stubby little thing sticking up out of the floor. Boy, it's nice to have more than one way to take care of that problem. There's other ways besides anchor bolts to affix something to concrete (or masonary), it's just a matter of which one works for what you want.

On a similar not I have a student who sell industrial pipe fittings. These new pipe fitters, connecters, and joints, called grooved locks allow pipes to be attached quicker and faster than traditional welding. It cuts the time down to work on section to about a fifth of the time. They are just as effective, as welding but they are quicker, easier to use and speed up the process of getting a building built faster.

So while there are many effective ways to do something there are also better ways to do something. There are also ways you shouldn’t do things.


…And I want to apologize in advanced if I offended any welders. I know how sensitive people can be on this board. I still think being a welder is a fine occupation.

[MJS]

Planas (Two siminars) Palanzo 0, Mills(0 but had an instructor who was under him for several years), Chapel 0, Tom Kelly (1 siminar and was the first time I saw the majic of Kenpo), Conatser (0 but had instructor who spent several years under him), Tanaka0, Cogliandro 0, Liles 0, Lerouz 0, Muhammed 0, Donnie Williams 0 , Brian Hawkins0 , Velez 0, Sean Kelley (one hour), Speakman (3 siminars), Pick 0 but have a close friend who is under him, Trejo one siminar, Sepulveda (8 siminars) La Bounty (30 hours and under one of his guys for 5 years) and 4 hours between Mike and Lee there in Maryland, Which I got more from than most all the others combined. I have also had a semenar with Tommy Chavies, great guy, also on my short list.

While seminars are a great source to learn from, I'd think that having spent more time with a given person, we'd be able to get a better feel for what they have to offer. I've talked with Clyde many times, asking questions about the various 'top guys' out there, and while he himself has said that Larry has spent the most time, he's also encouraged me to check these other people out and form my own opinion. The few that I have had the chance to see at seminars, again really didn't give me a ton of time to judge how much they really know.

IMO, what alot of it comes down to, is loyalty. A student, if they really like training under their inst. is going to defend them to the bitter end. Regardless of what anyone may think, IMO, I personally feel that everyone is going to have something to offer.

I really don't think that we'll ever come to the conclusion as to who is teaching the 'right' way. I will say though, that the people out there that are training with Doc, Palanzo, Planas, Mills, and the rest, are obviously happy with the training that they're getting. If they weren't I'd think that they'd be looking for another source.

Mike

[green meanie]

I think that unless someone can prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that someone is teaching the wrong way then I have no reason not to believe that ALL of these individuals who had the great honor and priviledge to train with GM Parker are all teaching the right way. :asian:

[kenpohack]

I'm not sure that you're qualifed to judge between Tatum, Planas, Kelly, Chapel, etc. insofar as their mastery of kenpo is concerned.

You can read an old magazine article and spin it anyway you want; that don't make it so.

Anyone with half a brain and vision correctable to 20/20 can judge between Tatum, Planas, Kelly, Chapel...They're all obviously very talented kenpoists. I'm hard pressed to say anything bad about any of them. They all also have distinctly different styles and modes of movement. I believe Brian and I are on the same wavelength when we say that Tatum seems to move closest to Ed Parker. That doesn't mean that any other senior is not skilled. It just means that Tatum is likely to have spent the most time on the mats with Parker considering his close proximity to Mr. Parker. None of the other seniors lived close enough to Mr. Parker to train with him as much as Mr. Tatum (maybe with the exception of Mr. Chapel, I only say that because I don't know where he hails from). All the aforementioned seniors are clearly masters of kenpo. I just believe that Mr. Tatum moves the closest to Mr. Parker and teaches an unaltered version of the system. Remember, this is alot like comparing a Corvette, a Viper and a GT40: I would drive any one of them in a heartbeat, despite having a preference.

[kenpohack]

Judge for yourselves if Mr. Tatum has all of Mr. Parker's speed, power, technical expertise, and depth of knowledge.

http://www.ltatum.com/TipOfTheWeek.html

There are 40 videos to reference on this site. Maybe you're right. Maybe a blue belt and a First Black just lack the qualifications to judge Mr. Tatum's skill (despite having a combined IQ well over 300). That's ok. Since everyone else on the forum has so much more experience, go ahead and critique Mr. Tatum. Give us your take on what he does. Pull no punches, I'm sure he can take it. He's not sensitive enough to be a part of this forum. He doesn't cry when someone offers an opinion that he doesn't like. By the way, if you need tissue, Walgreens is open 24 hours. Don't forget the Vagisil, it helps in those sensitive moments.

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Anyone with half a brain and vision correctable to 20/20 can judge between Tatum, Planas, Kelly, Chapel...They're all obviously very talented kenpoists. I'm hard pressed to say anything bad about any of them. They all also have distinctly different styles and modes of movement. I believe Brian and I are on the same wavelength when we say that Tatum seems to move closest to Ed Parker. That doesn't mean that any other senior is not skilled. It just means that Tatum is likely to have spent the most time on the mats with Parker considering his close proximity to Mr. Parker. None of the other seniors lived close enough to Mr. Parker to train with him as much as Mr. Tatum (maybe with the exception of Mr. Chapel, I only say that because I don't know where he hails from). All the aforementioned seniors are clearly masters of kenpo. I just believe that Mr. Tatum moves the closest to Mr. Parker and teaches an unaltered version of the system. Remember, this is alot like comparing a Corvette, a Viper and a GT40: I would drive any one of them in a heartbeat, despite having a preference.

I was leaving this thread alone until I saw this very sensible post. Not sure about the proximity viewpoint as I don't have the "official" record of how much time Mr. Parker actually spent in California during the said time period as opposed to his worldwide travels. But the viewpoints on how to compare the seniors (in bold) I couldn't have said better myself. All are excellent though some people have a personal preference for one over the other. I can respect that greatly.

Full Salute! :asian:

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Judge for yourselves if Mr. Tatum has all of Mr. Parker's speed, power, technical expertise, and depth of knowledge.

http://www.ltatum.com/TipOfTheWeek.html

There are 40 videos to reference on this site. Maybe you're right. Maybe a blue belt and a First Black just lack the qualifications to judge Mr. Tatum's skill (despite having a combined IQ well over 300). That's ok. Since everyone else on the forum has so much more experience, go ahead and critique Mr. Tatum. Give us your take on what he does. Pull no punches, I'm sure he can take it. He's not sensitive enough to be a part of this forum. He doesn't cry when someone offers an opinion that he doesn't like. By the way, if you need tissue, Walgreens is open 24 hours. Don't forget the Vagisil, it helps in those sensitive moments.

So you are both geniuses (the official term for a score that high) with IQ's over the 150 mark? If that is true I am impressed to say the least as IQ scores in that range are VERY RARE (about 0.25% of the poulation). It also begs the question why someone with such a high intelligence quotient would state that 40 video clips (although all 40 aren't available on the site as about 5 or so were lost on a server a while back if my memory serves me correctly) that amount to just over an hour of video would be an accurate barometer of the depth of someone's knowledge in a field they've studied for over 30 years. Personally, I'd be insulted if one hour of video even scratched the depth of my knowledge or technical expertise in an area I'm considered to be skilled in.

My critique of Mr. Tatum (My opinions):
--Moves well, possibly even more fluid than the videos I have of Mr. Parker, very explosive, very fast.
--Has an intimate knowledge of the kenpo system, does pack alot of info in a short clip, even mixes things up from the ideal on a few clips.
--The kenpo ground technique clip is questionable, it is applicable and the concepts are sound, but that particular application is highly unlikely for two reasons. 1) the way the person is "mounted" shows a lack of knowledge and skill which decreases the likelihood of them getting to that position and 2) if the person is skilled enough to get a trained kenpoist to that postion, they are most probably not going to mount in such an unstable fashion.
--Does Mr. Tatum's signature "reverb" count as wasted motion? I haven't seen enough to know if he does that all the time or if it's just flash for the camera.
--Some moves are different from those of seniors who "predate" Mr. Tatum and seniors who came later, this brings to question "were the moves changed by Mr. Parker and then taught to Mr. Tatum or did Mr. Tatum change them himself?" Everyone has a different view on this and Mr. Tatum may be the only person who has THE answer other than the senior who taught him through 1st brown.

Off Topic: With IQ scores that high people are generally given notice of "areas of concentration" for the types of intelligence they excel in which gives them such a high score. What are the types of intelligence that you have a concentration in? I have a high IQ score as well and would like to compare notes.

Disclaimer: There is no intended sarcasm in this post. All questions are genuine and all stated opinions are just that, my opinon.

[MJS]

Anyone with half a brain and vision correctable to 20/20 can judge between Tatum, Planas, Kelly, Chapel...They're all obviously very talented kenpoists. I'm hard pressed to say anything bad about any of them. They all also have distinctly different styles and modes of movement. I believe Brian and I are on the same wavelength when we say that Tatum seems to move closest to Ed Parker. That doesn't mean that any other senior is not skilled. It just means that Tatum is likely to have spent the most time on the mats with Parker considering his close proximity to Mr. Parker. None of the other seniors lived close enough to Mr. Parker to train with him as much as Mr. Tatum (maybe with the exception of Mr. Chapel, I only say that because I don't know where he hails from). All the aforementioned seniors are clearly masters of kenpo. I just believe that Mr. Tatum moves the closest to Mr. Parker and teaches an unaltered version of the system. Remember, this is alot like comparing a Corvette, a Viper and a GT40: I would drive any one of them in a heartbeat, despite having a preference.

As I've said, my knowledge of how others move is limited compared to others on here. That being said, could you expand on this comment a bit? How much 'altering' would you say Palanzo, LaBounty, Planas, etc. have done? I'm sure that everyone has made slight changes due to body size, reach, etc., but not necessarily changing the moves in a technique.

Mike

[MJS]

Thread closed pending review.

MJS
MT Supermod

[Lisa]

Moderator Note:

The rules & policies of MartialTalk are in place to ensure we maintain a FRIENDLY discussion of the Martial Arts. The recent posts in this thread have shown a disregard, if not for just the specific rules, then to the intent of the MartialTalk community. For these reasons this thread shall remain locked.

Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super Moderator