Do ITF and WTF incorporate grappling into their curriculum? Do they see it as useful? Do they feel it is needed?

I know from past experiences that street self-defense usually end up in grappling.

What the senior instructors' views on grappling?

Cheers

Well, so far I've learned ways to apply and defeat wrist locks, taclkes, chokes, a few ways to grab kicks and punish 'em, several variations on hip throws and break falling etc.

Can't really comment on other clubs etc since there's a lot of variation, but the general idea I've gotten is to break away from grabs etc and get back into range for standup fighting. Holds are to set up strikes and all that. Not any groundfighting up til around the Dan levels from what I understand. (What I've seen of groundfightng, it mainly involves kicking from one knee, or getting up with a kick etc.)

One of my instructors liked to say "We're doing TKD, not arresting people."

TKD tends to teach grappling only so far as it's useful in order to strike vital spots after your opponent grabs you.

Originally posted by Danny

TKD tends to teach grappling only so far as it's useful in order to strike vital spots after your opponent grabs you.

I will dissagree with you 100% on this one Danny, TKD has no set cirruculum for "self-defense" techniques, therefore it is up to the individual instructors to decide how far they want to go with the grappling. Usually they only go as far as their training takes them, and it is unfortunate that many instructors do not cross train in Ju-jitsu. However, I happen to be privy enough to have an instructor who takes special interest in Ju-jitsu, so our entire self-defense cirruculum is currently being re-written to incorporate the Ju-jitsu cirriculum as our version of self-defense.

Bagatha,

Since your school is reworking your self defence curriculum, may I be so bold as to recommend my school of JKD's self defense that make liberal use of eye poking, nose tweaking, foot stomping (hint lol), sucker punch to the solar plexus, side fist to the top of the skull, handy techniques?

Pics of our founding Grandmasters are prominently displayed on first page. :D :D :D

SUPER Duper JKD (http://www.byrum.org/3stooges/)

WTF TKD is purely a striking art.The self def. aspect is comprised of these tech. in much the same way as Shotokan i.e. punch and kick 'em till they don't move anymore!
However, it has been my expierence that almost all MA instructors worth their salt have training in some kind of grappling/trapping art that is mixed in with their primary style.
Most Korean instructors also offer Yudo And Hapkido to thier students.

Originally posted by KennethKu

Bagatha,

Since your school is reworking your self defence curriculum, may I be so bold as to recommend my school of JKD's self defense that make liberal use of eye poking, nose tweaking, foot stomping (hint lol), sucker punch to the solar plexus, side fist to the top of the skull, handy techniques?

Pics of our founding Grandmasters are prominently displayed on first page. :D :D :D

SUPER Duper JKD (http://www.byrum.org/3stooges/)

PFFFTT!! O-M-G, ROFL.:rolleyes: :D

The grandmaster of my organization in Pennsylvania was in Martial Arts Combat Sports, Magazine and demonstrated takedowns and locks. He is a really cool guy, I don't train directly under him, but my master does and he says he likes to teach us a lot of punches and even those takedowns and locks as we advance.

Looking at the pictures in the magazine, a lot of them look like they would really hurt.

Replying to the question about grappling in TKD. Check out the Won-Hyo technical question thread and read the low block description / application posted by me. It works when studied carefully. There is more to TKD than meets the eye.

white belt

Or, in this instance whitebelt, ITF taekwondo. WTF does another set of forms rather than the progression with includes won-hyo.

locking depends mostly on instructors in my class we hav done most of joint locks/grabs. we hav done most of hosin suls n grappling things in my first 6 months, so we hav good weigtage on both stricking n grappling, but that doesn't mean that u can grapple against grappler u hav to fight in ur style...
i even surprised my tai chi teacher showing him most of grabs n stuff which is basically taiji Qin-na stuff. he was really surprised from a TKDist...
most of ITF schools follow the encyclopedia book by Gen CHoi(at least in this city) so they train everything from it...
u hav to demonstrate every locks against resisting oppnt in grading too...
-TkdWarrior-

Angus and TKD Warrior,

Yes, I am WTF affiliated. We do the Pal Gae hyungs. I am getting the feeling more and more that ITF affiliates are surprised to hear that a WTF affiliate like me likes and practices hyung with fervor. Am I correct in this assumption? If so, what a bummer! Not a good sign for WTF, eh? Do you guys feel that way?

white belt

well i m not surprised with u Mr White belt as i had once my a$$ handed down with one WTF guy ;) :D... actually i was stating points about my class how we go about it...
PS: except for some rare WTF chaps mostly r bummers...i hate to say that...their knowledge of grabs/locks r almsot non existent
-TkdWarrior-

"TKD has no set cirruculum for "self-defense" techniques, therefore it is up to the individual instructors to decide how far they want to go with the grappling."

Exactomundo

Bagatha, you know an awful lot for a first degree black belt in ITF. Most people taking TKD assume that everything they are learning is being taught at all schools internationally and don't realise that their particular instructor is teaching them what he feels is important and his flavor of TKD including parts of whatever other arts that instructor has taken. Usually this is something only other instructors know, do you run a branch or something? How long have you been taking TKD?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

*Ahem* (watch my head grow) LOL. geez um thanks. Yes I do run a branch actually. I have been taking it an embarrassingly short amount of time. Lets leave it at that. But I am passionate and impatient to learn, and share what I discover.

And no Im not one of those goofs that got their BB in a year...

I got my first branch at 1st degree too so I know what it's like. And that was only after 4 years of training. I was also pretty young (21) when I started teaching and it was hard getting adult students in. Things are completely different now 9 years later but it was a hard road at first. Now I'm under my own name and running 3 branchs (2 community centres and rented space at a commercial site).

Goodluck with your branch.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Thanks.

Most people taking TKD assume that everything they are learning is being taught at all schools internationally and don't realise that their particular instructor is teaching them what he feels is important and his flavor of TKD including parts of whatever other arts that instructor has taken.

How true. It really grates on me when some colored belt says something like "well thats not the way Instructor XYZ does it". How could he? his training is his own after a certain point.
It gets to me the most however when I taught Instructor X and Z from white belt!:EG:

White Belt..Yes, I am WTF affiliated. We do the Pal Gae hyungs
Does your Instructor/Master promote through the Kukkiwon? If so I assume you practice Palgwae poomse in addition to the Taegeuk forms, as the later are the manditory series for the WTF.
Does your training involve the older forms such as Balsek, Sipsu, Lohi (Rohi) and the Naihanchi (Tekki) patterns?

Fissure,

The Taegeuk forms are known, but, not practiced. My GM. decided not long after their inception, that the two sets have too many similarities to not be considered a bit redundant. He expressed that learning the same moves in the Pal Gae sequences is enough to understand more applications than most students would realistically need already. I understand that some people would take issue with this, but, it can be compared with having 20 responses to a certain type of attack as opposed to say 6. With 6 there is less chance of a deer in the headlights log jam when the reactionary phase of ingrained motor skills takes over. If the apps. are broken down and repetitiously practiced, there is only so much room in the subconcious reactionary part of the brain where motor skills are stored. His training in apps. when younger was quite repetitious and rugged. He noticed, and was taught, when the cut off point takes over, the prior learned skills start becoming useless. Mr. Lee expounded on this same science very well for his JKD students, as I'm sure you are aware. My GM. utilizes the same is all I am trying to say. This is how the not practicing Taegeuk forms is rationalized. Most Masters that he associates with are of the same or similar viewpoints. I do not practice any other forms, but, I do drill apps.

To be certified Kukkiwon wise he himself does not require me to practice other than Pal Gae forms even though that is contrary to the common standard. Some would say that is unfair, but, the understanding and absorbtion of the material practiced is better considering the above science view and all other things being equal. That understanding can then be applied to other patterns that aren't part of the students pattern sets. This is how I examined Won-Hyo being A non ITF TKD student. If this doesn't fit other peoples expectations, they are entitled to their opinions. I wish them success in their studies. Sorry about the lengthy response.

Best wishes,
white belt

I think any of the colored belt series of forms serves the purpose equally well. Taeguek, Palgwe or Pyung An are all rearranged copies of one another. I also don't see the point in learning different sets of basically the same thing, a point I disagree with my former teacher on! Agian I am curious, if your Master has held on to the somewhat older Palgwes does he also teach the older Dan level forms I mentioned?

Koryo, Kumgang, Tabek, Pyongwon, etc.

I haven't seen those old forms you mentioned. Sounds interesting though.

white belt