Where are the TRUE masters

[silatman]

I was reading the latest Blitz magazine and in it was an article about the topic of masters.
Put simply the fact that in this moment of time there are more students of all martial arts training than at any other moment of time and yet there are very few if any True masters being produced.
Back in the day there was people like Bruce Lee, Kano, Musashi, Mas Omara just to name a few, so why with more people on the ground are we not getting any new TRUE ones?
Your thoughts...

[terryl965]

Silatman it is simple the people doing it today will not put the actual time and sweat to become great. They are more intent in finding people to cross rank them and at this moment in time most people believe it stupid to devote ones life to only one Art, the have the delusion that no one Art is complete.
Terry

[Martial Tucker]

Silatman it is simple the people doing it today will not put the actual time and sweat to become great. They are more intent in finding people to cross rank them and at this moment in time most people believe it stupid to devote ones life to only one Art, the have the delusion that no one Art is complete.
Terry
I agree with Terry, but to take it a step further, I think the explosive growth in MMA has taken a lot of attention away from the more traditional "do"
arts, where concepts like humility, perfecting basic skills, respect, history/tradition, and kata/poomse/bunkai became more a way of life than an art to those who become deeply involved.

Today, because of our society's tendency for instant gratification and our love of money, publicity, and bragging rights, the focus is on MMA.
Don't get me wrong, I think there is definitely a place for MMA. You could easily make the argument that Bruce Lee was one of the first MMA pioneers.

But to me, and I think to you Silatman (and Terry), martial arts is MUCH more than who owns the biggest can of whoopass. For now though, the
whoopass is getting most of the attention because it's showy. People gravitate towards it similar to how a child will always pick a cheap toy that's flashy and colorful over a more expensive toy that is plain looking.

Ask someone on the street who today's martial arts "masters" are, and they are likely to say: Couture, Liddell, Hughes, Gracie, et. al.

I'm sure there are people out there in the traditional arts with abilities
on a par with these men, but they are more interested in training in obscurity for the sake of training, and self-betterment.

I guess I'm really saying it depends on how you define "master". Personally,
I'll take the Kano's and the Itosu's, but that's just me.....

[Don Roley]

More is not better.

When you make an art more accessable to the masses, you dilute the teachings.

And we live in far less dangerous times than many masters. The guy who taught the current head of my art is said to have fought in China and lost his hearing in one eye due to a little duel. Nowdays people use the martial arts for exercise like Tae Bo and sometimes as child care. The old guys did not do martial arts for anything other than one reason- to hurt others.

[NOZR1]

The guy who taught the current head of my art is said to have fought in China and lost his hearing in one eye due to a little duel. Huh? :lol:

[Dark]

Back in the day there was people like Bruce Lee, Kano, Musashi, Mas Omara just to name a few, so why with more people on the ground are we not getting any new TRUE ones?
Your thoughts...

I once had someone give me this quote about true mastery, but I can't remember it exactly. Was something like, "A true master has vision, and walks his path alone. All others simply follow where the leaders have dared to tread." In Okinawa there was a test for mastery, to begin your own style, those who did and could protect in challenges were considered true masters those who couldn't were forgotten.

I don't think it's a matter of creating something new, as it a matter of not standing in anyone's shadow. The willing ness to excel, not just maintain...

[crushing]

The guy who taught the current head of my art is said to have fought in China and lost his hearing in one eye due to a little duel.

I definately know what that is like. I, myself, am deaf in one eye and can't hear out of the other.

[Phadrus00]

Put simply the fact that in this moment of time there are more students of all martial arts training than at any other moment of time and yet there are very few if any True masters being produced.
Back in the day there was people like Bruce Lee, Kano, Musashi, Mas Omara just to name a few, so why with more people on the ground are we not getting any new TRUE ones?
Your thoughts...

Silatman,

I think you need to take into account the "Lens of History" and how it has focussed our attention on these Masters in our past. At the time Bruce Lee, Kano, Mushashi were likely NOT commonly known, and they were "duking it out" with other practicioners for attention and recognition. Over time their work has gained followers and become more popular and History has favored their contribution with attention. I believe the True Masters are here, they are among us, working hard to promote their arts and spread their understanding and in time we will come to look back on them and recognize thier contribution within an historical context.

I have had the pleasure of training with several practicioners that I consider to be Masters of their Art and it is a near Religious experience. I hope that History illuminates their contributions because they certainly have inspired and influenced my appreciation and goals in the Arts.

Rob

[monkey]

Silatamn I said this to one of my old ways Kempo brothers.

we are a dieing bread.We use to train hard-no pads-conditon our hands & feet.
Now if you spar in class & by chance some one got hurt--law suites--time missed training--losing student.


We are a Deing Bread! We are the inovated from the inovators.
We had hope & now its sports & classical type ways but,the combat
has been striped in most(for the sake of sport or ranks)

[Kreth]

we are a dieing bread.
We?! Please tell me you don't consider yourself a "master."

[matt.m]

You know I don't think it comes down to style creation. It comes down to leadership more than anything. Plus the fact that there are so many McDojo's around doing their thing as a black belt factory doesn't help either.

I am 2.5 to 3.0 yrs from even thinking about dan testing. I have a friend who goes to a McDojo, I told him that he would be a 3rd dan before I got to test for dan.

Oh well, I blame the teacher not the student for that kind of black belt factory mentality. If the instructor didn't act that way and promote people when they didn't deserve it then students would not be testing just because.

[Xue Sheng]

More is not better.

The guy who taught the current head of my art is said to have fought in China and lost his hearing in one eye due to a little duel.


I definately know what that is like. I, myself, am deaf in one eye and can't hear out of the other.

I don't know why but the lyric from an Ozzy Osborne song just popped into my head.

"Swallowing colors of the sound I hear"

But to go back to topic.

There are masters around, as stated we know of Bruce Lee and others now but who knew hem when they first started out. And many who are true masters do not broadcast it. And if you are talking masters that are Chinese, they never broad cast it, if they are the real deal.

[Andrew Green]

Well, nowadays people aren't "allowed" to create styles, and thats what all those guys did ;)

I'd also say there are plenty of masters, they just don't call themselves that.

[Adept]

I'm going to actually take the opposite opinion here. While there is the ever-present McDojo element, I believe that 'elite' level of mastery that indicates one is a master, as demonstrated by the people outlined in the opening post as well as others, has been opened up to a much larger group of people who have embraced it with open arms.

Instead of there being half a dozen 'true masters', we now have hundreds, if not thousands of people across the globe who have managed to reach similar levels of skill and dedication. The bar has been raised, so simply being as good as the 'true masters' were is no longer enough to significantly distinguish oneself from the crowd.

[Ceicei]

I'm going to actually take the opposite opinion here. While there is the ever-present McDojo element, I believe that 'elite' level of mastery that indicates one is a master, as demonstrated by the people outlined in the opening post as well as others, has been opened up to a much larger group of people who have embraced it with open arms.

Instead of there being half a dozen 'true masters', we now have hundreds, if not thousands of people across the globe who have managed to reach similar levels of skill and dedication. The bar has been raised, so simply being as good as the 'true masters' were is no longer enough to significantly distinguish oneself from the crowd.
True masters will not "advertise" themselves as such. They are there and they exist out there. With a bit of effort, these masters can be found.

- Ceicei

[Adept]

True masters will not "advertise" themselves as such. They are there and they exist out there. With a bit of effort, these masters can be found.

- Ceicei

I guess it depends on your definition. I would certainly class Muhammad Ali as a master, and he told everyone who would listen that he was 'the greatest!'.

[Dark]

I'm going to actually take the opposite opinion here. While there is the ever-present McDojo element, I believe that 'elite' level of mastery that indicates one is a master, as demonstrated by the people outlined in the opening post as well as others, has been opened up to a much larger group of people who have embraced it with open arms.

Instead of there being half a dozen 'true masters', we now have hundreds, if not thousands of people across the globe who have managed to reach similar levels of skill and dedication. The bar has been raised, so simply being as good as the 'true masters' were is no longer enough to significantly distinguish oneself from the crowd.

I have to disagree, there is by my definition two requirements of true mastery. One is self-mastery, and all that intels and the other is knowledge. You get the knowledge from your martial arts and you get your self-mastery from experience.

I might have the wrong impression and many will say I do, but I image a great many zen koans and taoist saying where simply a bunch off old guys messing with the kids who kept bothering them with stupid questions.
I imagine these three old guys just setting under a tree relaxing and some kid wanting all the answers handed to him, running up and saying "What is the secret of your fighting style?"
And this grizzled old cogger giving a stupid answer like "If a tree falls in the woods and no one os there to hear does it make a sound?"
So the young student runs off trying to figure it all out to learn the masters secret and the reality is the student will never know because he will never experience it. Much like the old master's fighting secret he will never know because he can never walk in that man's shoes. Thus the secret is shut and expierence life for itself.

What made the masters was experience, and nothing more. A rank and a belt don't add up to real life experience...

[Adept]

I have to disagree, there is by my definition two requirements of true mastery. One is self-mastery, and all that intels and the other is knowledge. You get the knowledge from your martial arts and you get your self-mastery from experience.

I'm unsure exactly what it is with my post that you disagree with.


What made the masters was experience, and nothing more. A rank and a belt don't add up to real life experience...

Well, obviously a person in their current state is a pre-determined result of both their environment and their genetics. In other words, they wouldn't be who they were, if they had had different experiences. In that way, you are right.

But if you mean that fighting experience makes one a martial arts master, then I must disagree. It also takes the natural talent, and raw ambition and dedication to be the strongest, fittest, and most skilled fighter you can be. Without a healthy helping of all three, you will only ever be an also-ran.

[Dark]

I'm unsure exactly what it is with my post that you disagree with.

"Instead of there being half a dozen 'true masters', we now have hundreds, if not thousands of people across the globe who have managed to reach similar levels of skill and dedication. The bar has been raised, so simply being as good as the 'true masters' were is no longer enough to significantly distinguish oneself from the crowd."

I disagree with this I find less qualified instructors, and more watered down MAs then years only 10 ago. True masters are not going to be found in this unless you look in some very out of the way places. The older more disoplined way has been pushed aside for easier and more politically correct methods.




Well, obviously a person in their current state is a pre-determined result of both their environment and their genetics. In other words, they wouldn't be who they were, if they had had different experiences. In that way, you are right.

But if you mean that fighting experience makes one a martial arts master, then I must disagree. It also takes the natural talent, and raw ambition and dedication to be the strongest, fittest, and most skilled fighter you can be. Without a healthy helping of all three, you will only ever be an also-ran.

The fittest and strongest have nothing to do with it, Ali beat men who were younger, stronger and faster then him in his latter days. There is an old saying I got from this country friend of mine, "The toughest dog isn't leading the pack he is sleeping on the porch."

The idea is that it takes real skill and real knowledge that comes from real experience. The most skilled fighter in the dojo or ring isn't squatt on the street unless he or she has experience there. I've beaten guys who should have taken my head off just because I knew what they didn't. What makes a real master is control and disopline. There is a trial by fire where you are released from the dojo and handed to the world, that experience with the world is your "trial by fire" so to speak...

Mastery of a style is one thing but how you apply that paper mastery to life is so much more...

[Sam]

we are a dieing bread.


First of all, if bread can die, someone needs to let me know. I haven't eaten meat for two years and bread has been a staple of my diet. Are you telling me I was not truly vegetarian these past two years? I would also appreciate any links to the mating rituals and lifecycles of bread. Clearly I am misinformed. A master such as yourself should be able to direct a lowly student such as myself to the proper resources.



Now if you spar in class & by chance some one got hurt--law suites--time missed training--losing student.


Only been training about two years, but I have NEVER heard of a school where you do not sign a contract saying you will not hold the school responsible for any injuries you may recieve.

[masterfinger]

I once heard "The truly dedicated students of today are the Masters of future generations". I think some of todays modern Masters are busy perfecting their craft instead of professing their "mastery" to others. Perhaps our children or grandchildren will recognize some that we barely know about now. The blowhards, McMasters & charlatans will simply fade into obscurity.

Franco

[Dark]

The blowhards, McMasters & charlatans will simply fade into obscurity.

Franco

I don't know, those who talk the most are heard the loudest... I cringe at three words "soke" hanshi and shihan. lol

[Edmund BlackAdder]

First of all, if bread can die, someone needs to let me know. I haven't eaten meat for two years and bread has been a staple of my diet. Are you telling me I was not truly vegetarian these past two years? I would also appreciate any links to the mating rituals and lifecycles of bread. Clearly I am misinformed. A master such as yourself should be able to direct a lowly student such as myself to the proper resources.

There was an entire series on Discovery Channel. Turns out that the Wheat tribe are a dying bread, as inbreading with the White breads has muddied the line. One must check the label carefully when looking for pure breads.

Oh, and avoid the French bread. Its a rather crusty lot.



Only been training about two years, but I have NEVER heard of a school where you do not sign a contract saying you will not hold the school responsible for any injuries you may recieve.

You can sign it, but there are limits to just what that waiver covers. It doesn't forgive negligence on the part of the school.

[Dark]

You can sign it, but there are limits to just what that waiver covers. It doesn't forgive negligence on the part of the school.

If those waivers ment anything no one would need insurance, they are just there to prove the student's stupidity. Stupidity being willingly enter a dangerous enviroment and asolve others of blame for there training methods, which may be harmful to them under certain situations.

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Where are the True masters?

Being very quiet.

A true master need not shout about himself, not point to papers or stripes.
He just is.

The blowhard and egomaniac spends much time pointing to his stripes, waving his papers around, and naming all those he ever trained with, so that you will know how great he is.

A true master need not call himself master.
Others will call him that.

A false master will introduce himself as "Master", or "Soke" or some such crap.
A True Master needs no title. He just is.

The false master attracts attention, and is in a constant state of "look at me".
The true master, has nothing to prove, and so may appear ordinary.

A false master will brag, and strut, then blame others for his failings.
A True Master is humble, and quiet, but will strike like lightning if need be, and take full responsibility for himself.

We have both on here.

[pstarr]

I think we need to acquire a firm definition of what we mean by "mastery" and "master."

[Dark]

I think we need to acquire a firm definition of what we mean by "mastery" and "master."

Agreed... I have mine which I explained earilier defines two aspects knowledge (skill in a martial arts and knowing how to apply it) and self-mastery (control over one's emotions, thoughts and especially agression.

[Bob Hubbard]

Mastery: is the ability to use knowledge. Differing levels of application indicate the level of mastery at which the students presently perform. While a teacher might be able to apply the information or knowledge in one area, it may take greater skill to apply the same knowledge in differing disciplines or areas.

Master: an authority qualified to teach apprentices

[pstarr]

I'm not comfortable with defining a "master" as one who has the ability to use knowledge. To me, "mastery" would imply that one has acquired the epitome of physical and mental skill within his or her chosen discipline, a level beyond which things lean into the spiritual...

A teacher has acquired knowledge and skill, is able to apply them, and is able to effectively transmit what he or she has learned. But this is not a "master."

Moreover, those who aspire to become masters often refer to themselves as such. A real master never refers to him or her self by that title - and usually doesn't like for anyone else to do so, either.

Thoughts?

[Last Fearner]

I mean no offense to anyone who has expressed their views here, but I find it amusing (in a good way), how so many have their "rules" of what a so-called "Master" would, or would not say, or do. Most people can identify a phony master who brags about his accomplishments, but fails to perform in any way near what his alleged high skill should be. However, I believe that the only one who can define what a master is, is a master.

Many who are not masters, will say they are masters. Many who are not masters will say that they can identify a master, and determine who is and is not a master. Some will say a "true Master" would never do this, and never say that, but I believe masters come in many forms, and will do and say as they please. Most students will build their own pedestals, and put their own master (or their ideal, famous Martial Artist) up there and say, "that is a true Master, and anyone who does not match the height of the pedestal I built, is not a Master..... or they will build the pedestal and say, "A true Master would never sit on a pedestal, so anyone who climbs up there is not a true Master."

Consider this - - when a semi-driver is sitting at a stop sign on a side street as heavy traffic goes back and forth, when does he pull out across all lanes to turn left?......... Never?, When traffic is clear? Answer: anytime he wants. Where does a bear sleep? In the woods? In a cave?.......Answer: anywhere he wants. In my opinion, True Masters of the Martial Art are everywhere. Some shine, and lead better than others. Some have successful schools while others have small private classes. Some don't teach at all. Some have won many battles in the street, and some are tournament champions, while others have the honor and distinction of never having had to fight.

Some Masters remain quiet and humble, while others shout from the roof-tops, and lead others with charisma, and notable character. Some Masters introduce themselves as "Joe Smith," and say, "just call me 'Joe'!" While other masters will use proper titles and proudly say, "I am Master Jones," or "My name is Grandmaster Smith."

Having the title of Master attached to your name does not make you a master, but it does not exclude a person from being one. Winning tournament championships does not make you a master, but it does not mean you are not one. Doing all the things that people say a "true Master" shouldn't do, does not make you a Master, but it does not prove that you are not one.

Who is a Master? Only the Master, and his/her Grandmaster knows for sure. Years ago, a Master was noted for doing something rare, and exceptional like winning battles with bare hands, or swords, or they were the humble teachers of others who did brave things. Today, the rare and exceptional events are being a good person, raising a family and being a good spouse, and a good mom or dad. Today's masters avoid fights and conflicts instead of falling prey to the stereotype that a Black Belt instructor must beat people up to be a "true Master."

Am I a true Master?? Only time will tell. Heh, the history books might write me up as being more of a Master than Bruce Lee, Jigoro Kano, Morehei Uyeshiba, etc, or the history books might not mention my name at all. Either way, I am who I am - - and I'm happy with that. :)

Thanks, :asian:
Last Fearner

[terryl965]

I mean no offense to anyone who has expressed their views here, but I find it amusing (in a good way), how so many have their "rules" of what a so-called "Master" would, or would not say, or do. Most people can identify a phony master who brags about his accomplishments, but fails to perform in any way near what his alleged high skill should be. However, I believe that the only one who can define what a master is, is a master.

Many who are not masters, will say they are masters. Many who are not masters will say that they can identify a master, and determine who is and is not a master. Some will say a "true Master" would never do this, and never say that, but I believe masters come in many forms, and will do and say as they please. Most students will build their own pedestals, and put their own master (or their ideal, famous Martial Artist) up there and say, "that is a true Master, and anyone who does not match the height of the pedestal I built, is not a Master..... or they will build the pedestal and say, "A true Master would never sit on a pedestal, so anyone who climbs up there is not a true Master."

Consider this - - when a semi-driver is sitting at a stop sign on a side street as heavy traffic goes back and forth, when does he pull out across all lanes to turn left?......... Never?, When traffic is clear? Answer: anytime he wants. Where does a bear sleep? In the woods? In a cave?.......Answer: anywhere he wants. In my opinion, True Masters of the Martial Art are everywhere. Some shine, and lead better than others. Some have successful schools while others have small private classes. Some don't teach at all. Some have won many battles in the street, and some are tournament champions, while others have the honor and distinction of never having had to fight.

Some Masters remain quiet and humble, while others shout from the roof-tops, and lead others with charisma, and notable character. Some Masters introduce themselves as "Joe Smith," and say, "just call me 'Joe'!" While other masters will use proper titles and proudly say, "I am Master Jones," or "My name is Grandmaster Smith."

Having the title of Master attached to your name does not make you a master, but it does not exclude a person from being one. Winning tournament championships does not make you a master, but it does not mean you are not one. Doing all the things that people say a "true Master" shouldn't do, does not make you a Master, but it does not prove that you are not one.

Who is a Master? Only the Master, and his/her Grandmaster knows for sure. Years ago, a Master was noted for doing something rare, and exceptional like winning battles with bare hands, or swords, or they were the humble teachers of others who did brave things. Today, the rare and exceptional events are being a good person, raising a family and being a good spouse, and a good mom or dad. Today's masters avoid fights and conflicts instead of falling prey to the stereotype that a Black Belt instructor must beat people up to be a "true Master."

Am I a true Master?? Only time will tell. Heh, the history books might write me up as being more of a Master than Bruce Lee, Jigoro Kano, Morehei Uyeshiba, etc, or the history books might not mention my name at all. Either way, I am who I am - - and I'm happy with that. :)

Thanks, :asian:
Last Fearner

That was simply beautiful and you would be one in my book.
Terry

[Kreth]

I don't know, those who talk the most are heard the loudest... I cringe at three words "soke" hanshi and shihan. lol
How ironic, since your profile lists your Primary Art and Ranking as "Ninjitsu [sic], Shihan Godan" :rolleyes:

[Dark]

How ironic, since your profile lists your Primary Art and Ranking as "Ninjitsu [sic], Shihan Godan" :rolleyes:

Now you know why I cringe at those words... lol

Some styles have the "tradition" of stating Shihan (enter belt rank) or Hanshi (enter belt rank) I used to belong to one such group. Never addressed myself as shihan, I see the title as a rank within itself and not sign of anything more...

[masterfinger]

Consider this - - 1. when a semi-driver is sitting at a stop sign on a side street as heavy traffic goes back and forth, when does he pull out across all lanes to turn left?......... Never?, When traffic is clear? Answer: anytime he wants. 2. Where does a bear sleep? In the woods? In a cave?.......Answer: anywhere he wants. In my opinion, True Masters of the Martial Art are everywhere.

Last, though I can agree to some of your post, your examples are way wrong.
1. When a semi-driver is sitting a stop sign, he pulls out when it's safe to do so, not anytime he wants. I'm guessing you've never driven a semi :uhyeah:.
2. When it comes bears, they cant sleep anywhere they want to. If a bear comes into or even near most areas where humans are, the bear either get's chased off, tranquilized then hauled off, or if it becomes overly aggressive, they shoot it.
Don't mean to bust yer chops, but I couldn't see the logic in those.

Franco

[Dark]

Don't mean to bust yer chops, but I couldn't see the logic in those.

Franco

I actually did, see the semi-driver can pull out anytime his or she wants, now wether it is smart to do is a different story. Same with the bears, a bear can sleep anywhere it wants so long as additional factors make it advisible to do so. Get the picture...

A master by that analogy, acts with a high concept and foresees the outcome of events. Taking charge of their life and not being influenced by others, but that if I'm getting it right? Or did I over analyize it Last?

[masterfinger]

I actually did, see the semi-driver can pull out anytime his or she wants,1. now wether it is smart to do is a different story. Same with the bears, 2. a bear can sleep anywhere it wants so long as additional factors make it advisible to do so. Get the picture...
A master by that analogy, acts with a high concept and foresees the outcome of events.

1. Not only that, but the safety factor has to be put into consideration to ensure the safety of his or herself & the lives of others, so only a driver who's a total numbnut would go "whenever they want".

2. If the bear has to consider additional factors before it is advisable to do so, then again it's being kept from sleeping literally anywhere it wants, or it suffers consequences.

Now you could use these examples if you wanted to make the point that those that call and/or consider themselves "Masters anytime they want" are numbnuts and will eventually crash & burn or whatever, but I don't think thats the point that Last Fearner wanted to convey.

Franco

[celtic_crippler]

They're out there. But not many people dedicate their entire lives to a Martial Art.

[Dark]

2. If the bear has to consider additional factors before it is advisable to do so, then again it's being kept from sleeping literally anywhere it wants, or it suffers consequences.

There are always reactions to our actions and not all of them are good. Some are just tragic, and the results of good intentions. I shouldn't have beat up a state trooper but I did and I'll suffer the conseques when it goes to trial, same as him for his "issues."

Every action has a reaction, you can drive off into traffic saying I'm bigger move. Or you can wait for a better time. Either action has a consequence, its just how you choose to see it...

[Adept]

"Instead of there being half a dozen 'true masters', we now have hundreds, if not thousands of people across the globe who have managed to reach similar levels of skill and dedication. The bar has been raised, so simply being as good as the 'true masters' were is no longer enough to significantly distinguish oneself from the crowd."

I disagree with this I find less qualified instructors, and more watered down MAs then years only 10 ago. True masters are not going to be found in this unless you look in some very out of the way places. The older more disoplined way has been pushed aside for easier and more politically correct methods.

But youre experiences represent only a tiny fraction of the global martial arts community. The older, more disciplined ways being pushed aside? No, they've just changed with the times. Like I said, there is a huge number of McDojos out there. But at the same time, there are hundreds, if not thousands of people putting in the hard yards, day after day, and getting results.


The fittest and strongest have nothing to do with it, Ali beat men who were younger, stronger and faster then him in his latter days. There is an old saying I got from this country friend of mine, "The toughest dog isn't leading the pack he is sleeping on the porch."

If all other things are equal, then the man with the advantage will win, whether that advantage is skill, experience, strength, endurance, or just luck. Those younger, fitter and stronger fighters than Ali, for example, obviously didn't have enough of an advantage to overcome him.


The idea is that it takes real skill and real knowledge that comes from real experience.

Define real


The most skilled fighter in the dojo or ring isn't squatt on the street unless he or she has experience there.

What I think you meant to say was that relevant experience is a valuable asset. And I agree.


What makes a real master is control and disopline.

And natural talent, and ambition. And, I would add, no small measure of ego.


There is a trial by fire where you are released from the dojo and handed to the world, that experience with the world is your "trial by fire" so to speak...

There is? Where? When?

[Dark]

But youre experiences represent only a tiny fraction of the global martial arts community. The older, more disciplined ways being pushed aside? No, they've just changed with the times. Like I said, there is a huge number of McDojos out there. But at the same time, there are hundreds, if not thousands of people putting in the hard yards, day after day, and getting results.

But what kind of results are they? Real or assumed?



Define real

Real life, that point where you quit thinking, practicing and start doing. Let me give you a better example. I remember stories about Dojos in Japan that would attack and challenge other dojos. For the most part these were basicly street fights. It doesn't get anymore real then that...


There is? Where? When?
Everyday of your life and every second where choose to take responsiblity for the path your life is on...

[Don Roley]

Where are the True masters?

Being very quiet.

A true master need not shout about himself, not point to papers or stripes.
He just is.

The blowhard and egomaniac spends much time pointing to his stripes, waving his papers around, and naming all those he ever trained with, so that you will know how great he is.

A true master need not call himself master.
Others will call him that.

A false master will introduce himself as "Master", or "Soke" or some such crap.
A True Master needs no title. He just is.

The false master attracts attention, and is in a constant state of "look at me".
The true master, has nothing to prove, and so may appear ordinary.

A false master will brag, and strut, then blame others for his failings.
A True Master is humble, and quiet, but will strike like lightning if need be, and take full responsibility for himself.

We have both on here.

I gotta go with Blackadder.

We have had folks sign up with "Soke" as part of their title. Instead of "Edmund Blackadder", it would be "Soke Blackadder." :rolleyes: Needless to say, they were the most clueless folks around.

We have had a lot of folks somehow slip in the fact that they were a shihan, tenth dan, etc and then try to make a big deal of being humble about it. "Yeah I was made a shihan- but it really doesn't mean much IMO."

So why arrange it so people can find out about it? :rolleyes:

Compare this with folks who won't mention their rank at all. People like Kreth just won't talk about their rank, but they could impress folks if they wanted.

On the internet we get quite a few idiots that try to impress others. The guys that really know their stuff don't seem to feel the need to impress others. The liers never seem to stick to one lie. I can think of folks that were caught lying about being in USMC Force Recon who also lied about being trained in Koga ryu. And guess what- people who knew that particular fraud said that he could not even do a decent punch and was a coward when confronted in person.

So when someone makes a lot of stories and claims to impress me, it only leaves a bad impression.

Those that don't make claims without a damn good reason are the ones I respect.

[terryl965]

Just to add as a side note here true Master are one that are here to teach the Art and not a sport, I have never understood someone being a Master teaching a sport.
Terry

[Dark]

How ironic, since your profile lists your Primary Art and Ranking as "Ninjitsu [sic], Shihan Godan" :rolleyes:

Formality nothing more...

[Dark]

Just to add as a side note here true Master are one that are here to teach the Art and not a sport, I have never understood someone being a Master teaching a sport.
Terry

There are master tennis players and master hockey players why not master (enter martial art) players?

[terryl965]

There are master tennis players and master hockey players why not master (enter martial art) players?

Sorry sir I have never heard the word Master associated with Tennis or Hockey, maybe professional but not Master.
Terry

[Dark]

What about Wayne Gretzky? Sorry I don't play tennis lol Seriously being called a master at a subject, be it martial arts or chess is one thing. A master at life is something different...

[Rook]

What about Wayne Gretzky? Sorry I don't play tennis lol Seriously being called a master at a subject, be it martial arts or chess is one thing. A master at life is something different...

True enough - chess has rating of master, international master and grandmaster when you accumulate enough points.

[Rich Parsons]

I was reading the latest Blitz magazine and in it was an article about the topic of masters.
Put simply the fact that in this moment of time there are more students of all martial arts training than at any other moment of time and yet there are very few if any True masters being produced.
Back in the day there was people like Bruce Lee, Kano, Musashi, Mas Omara just to name a few, so why with more people on the ground are we not getting any new TRUE ones?
Your thoughts...


Back on Topic:

True Master?

Some might say that Bruce was not a "TRUE" Master as he did follow the traditional path. Yet now later in history many consider him as such.

Where have they gone or where are they?

I think some train, and train those who are serious. They do not try to promote themselves on the internet nor in the public eye but just train themselves and their students.

Now this does not mean that a Master cannot use the the internet, only given the recent usage of such as compared to the last couple of hundred years of martial arts.

I agree with what some others have said. They are out there and do not require titles or honorifics in their name. And if it is there it is because of the student using it in honor and respect.

Personally, I do not like the title. Some have used it in reference to me and I have it for a system I teach, but I prefer not to use it at all. That is me.

[silatman]

Wow, just a couple of responses.


The way that the article that started off this thread defined the word "master" was somebody that made a style their own or somebody that changed the way that things were done to such a degree that the art that they now perform is so different from what they were taught themselves as to be totally unrecognisable from the original art.
The article didn't agree and neither do I that the term "master" should be used for somebody who has attained a high rank or even the highest rank affordable in any choosen system. instead they just recognized the fact that some one can become amazing efficient or powerful in an art that they have studied for a given amount of time but to be a master you need to be able to go beyond copying techniques or using taught principal and actually think beyond your own instructions.

I do hope that there are people out there doing things thier own way and eventually they will be recognized, it would be a shame to keep re-hashing the same old moves under the guise of a new name.
I go back to my original question, people say they are there but where and who?

[MJS]

I was reading the latest Blitz magazine and in it was an article about the topic of masters.
Put simply the fact that in this moment of time there are more students of all martial arts training than at any other moment of time and yet there are very few if any True masters being produced.
Back in the day there was people like Bruce Lee, Kano, Musashi, Mas Omara just to name a few, so why with more people on the ground are we not getting any new TRUE ones?
Your thoughts...

I have to agree with a few of the posters here. There are many people out there who have put in quite a bit of time into training, really understanding the art, as well as being able to teach the art to people. The thing of it is, is that sometimes, we have to put in a little work and seek out these people, as they're not always going to be found nextdoor.

Mike

[Last Fearner]

Hello, masterfinger. :wavey:

First, I want to thank you for your thoughtful response to my comments. You were honest and up-front about your different take on my analogies, and I respect that. Allow me to respond to your observations.


Last, though I can agree to some of your post, your examples are way wrong.
1. When a semi-driver is sitting a stop sign, he pulls out when it's safe to do so, not anytime he wants. I'm guessing you've never driven a semi :uhyeah:.

Yes sir, you are correct. I have never driven a semi! :) However, my brother drove semis, and I rode along with him as navigator, and personal protection. My uncle drove semi in Arizona, and I rode with him. Also, my father drove a fuel tanker for a while until a car full of elderly people pulled out in front of him. Fortunately, no one was killed as my father turned enough to run over the trunk of their car. So the answer to the question, "when do you pull out in front of a semi?" might be "Never" - unless you have a death wish.

When I was in the Army, I drove a gama-goat (six-wheel drive vehicle), and a deuce and half (two-and-half ton truck). At Army Reserve training in Michigan, you see signs on the road that show a picture of a tank, and say, "tank crossing." Out of the clear blue, an 8" howitzer tank might pop up from a side path, and cross a road un-announced. I guess my analogy could have been, "when does a tank cross a road - - answer: "anytime it wants." lol :apv:

The semi comment I made is an old joke that I thought was fitting. Your touch of reality is accurate. Most semi drivers know better than to just pull out in front of cars. I have seen many of them sitting, frustrated, because they can't get a break in traffic. However, I have also seen many who will eventually, slowly edge out, and cross four lanes, bringing all traffic to a halt as though they have a built in traffic light attached to thier roof. Once, I saw the aftermath of a car that did not take note of a semi doing this, and buried itself under the tires of the trailer. If a semi driver really wants to pull out, he could, and not much is going to stop him, except another semi (or perhaps a tank! - lol).



2. When it comes bears, they cant sleep anywhere they want to. If a bear comes into or even near most areas where humans are, the bear either get's chased off, tranquilized then hauled off, or if it becomes overly aggressive, they shoot it.
Don't mean to bust yer chops, but I couldn't see the logic in those.

Again, you are right! There is not much "logic" to the analogy - - it is not meant to be logical. It is like saying "what does a lion eat?" Being at the top of the food chain, "pretty much anything he wants." Realistically, there are things lions do not eat. The point is, if you see a lion eating something, and you say "hey, stop eating that - - that's not something lions are supposed to eat," I don't think your going to change who or what the lion is, or get him to stop eating, simply because he is doing something you think he shouldn't.

As for the bear, if he is sleepy enough, he does not need to ask permission to sleep somewhere. This does not mean that a bear is going to fall asleep under water, or that someone or something is not going to wake the bear up. There are consequences for the bear if he sleeps somewhere unsafe, and consequences for the person who wakes him up! lol (and by the way, I have never woken up a sleeping bear either - - except maybe at a zoo once.) :D The point is not "can you stop a bear from sleeping somewhere." It is that you should not assume that you will only find a bear sleeping in the woods, or that if a bear decides to sleep in a log cabin, that he ceases to be a bear.

[by the way, when I say "you" in my response, I don't mean you personally, masterfinger. I just mean people in general]

Legally, and morally there are potential consequences to all of our actions. My point was that many people say what a "true Master" would never say or do, and I'm suggesting that this is not always the case. Masters often do and say the things others think they shouldn't. They are humans, and they can have good days and bad days, and make mistakes. They have the right, and power (same as anyone else) to be, say, and do as they please, and still be Masters. If their actions bring their honesty, integrity, and character in question, then that is another issue. However, if they want to advertise a school, talk on the internet, or introduce themselves as "Master" so-and-so, then I do not believe that this precludes them from being a "True Master."

That's just my opinion on the subject, and I respect those who feel differently.

Last Fearner

[trueaspirer]

Many of today's ma schools are black belt factories. Get them to apply, hit them with the standard cookie-cutter mold, push 'em out. Everybody goes home happy, the school that much richer. It is much less common to find a school that is really dedicated to helping each and every student do their best. It is that kind of inspiration that makes the masters.

[terryl965]

All this what makes a True Master is a bunch of ****, plan and simple. A True Master of any MA style is one that dedicates himself or herself to there particular style for there entire life, one that has become to understand inner peace and last but foremost is one that is out there evry single day and helping the community and the city, state and country they live in.

Working at the homeless shelter once a week volenterring at the church or rec. center or the hospital and not looking for the pat on the back from anybody, they are there because they choose to be there.

Our police officers and firemen and women are Master, the military would also be consider a Master for there particular countrys.


And last but certainly not least by any means GOD the one and only is the all mighty Master for the entire world.

Can I get a AMEN from the masses!!!!!

Terry

[Andy Moynihan]

I find it interesting the difference between Eastern and Western martial arst as concerns the importance they traditionally appear to put on the title "Master".

In the old English ( late Middle Ages/Early Renaissance) schools of swordplay such as the techniques presented by George Silver in 1599 with his book "Paradoxes of Defence", in those days the word "master" simply meant someone older, and senior to you who taught you something( in many older English private schools teachers are sometimes still called "Masters" or "professors" onstead of Teachers as in the US) where in Eastern traditions it seems to carry more weight or imply a deeper plane of existence, or at least since it's come over the pond we've given it that status......

[Kreth]

in those days the word "master" simply meant someone older, and senior to you who taught you something
This is basically what the accepted translation of Sensei means. So now you see why I think it's silly for someone to refer to themself as Sensei. It's basically announcing yourself as a role model... :rolleyes:

[Andy Moynihan]

*nods*. We think it's just "teacher" but it isn't. "Sen" means "before" and sei means "born" or "generation" so Sensei just means "One who is born before", the idea being anyone who's been around longer can be your teacher. Lost in translation indeed.:idunno:

[masterfinger]

Hi again LF:wavey:, I hear what you're sayin bud. Sorry, but sometimes when things aren't KISS to me I tend to nitpick:soapbox:

I can see where you come from when you've driven a duece!


Franco

[Adept]

But what kind of results are they? Real or assumed?

The effective difference being? If someone can handle themselves, then they can handle themselves, regardless of how many street fights they get under their belts.


Real life, that point where you quit thinking, practicing and start doing.

So the ring would be real then?


Let me give you a better example. I remember stories about Dojos in Japan that would attack and challenge other dojos. For the most part these were basicly street fights. It doesn't get anymore real then that...

Why should 'street' experience be so important? If one goes looking for trouble, one ends up in jail. If one does not, one rarely finds trouble. Does that mean one couldn't handle it if they did? Of course not.

Doesn't get any more real than that? Being able to injure people without the constraint of rules is the most important thing? The the Washington Sniper was one of the greatest martial arts masters ever!

:rolleyes:


Everyday of your life and every second where choose to take responsiblity for the path your life is on...

You're getting overly esoteric here. You were implying that there was a 'trial by fire' that martial artists underwent, and those who had yet to undertake this trial were somehow less important.

Then you say that this trial is every day of your life that you choose your own fate. Which is everyday for everyone.

[Adept]

Sorry sir I have never heard the word Master associated with Tennis or Hockey, maybe professional but not Master.
Terry

Well, it depends on what definition of 'master' you are using. As a formal title and rank, then no. As a measure of skill and ability, then yes.

[Adept]

All this what makes a True Master is a bunch of ****, plan and simple. A True Master of any MA style is one that dedicates himself or herself to there particular style for there entire life, one that has become to understand inner peace and last but foremost is one that is out there evry single day and helping the community and the city, state and country they live in.

I disagree. Dedicating ones life to an art is not enough. They also have to have the natural ability, ambition and discipline to be the best. Not just the best they can be, but better than their peers as well.

Further, inner peace and helping the community does not make one a master. It makes one a good person, and an asset to the community. But it doesn't make them a martial arts master.

[rmclain]

I disagree. Dedicating ones life to an art is not enough. They also have to have the natural ability, ambition and discipline to be the best. Not just the best they can be, but better than their peers as well.

Further, inner peace and helping the community does not make one a master. It makes one a good person, and an asset to the community. But it doesn't make them a martial arts master.

Yes that is true. A lifetime of bad practice doesn't make anyone a Master of anything, except maybe bad practice.

R. McLain

[pstarr]

I have to side with Adept for the most part. I think a master must not only know the "how" but the "why" as well...

[Brandon Fisher]

I have people on occasion call me master because of my 5th dan or because they feel it fits. I personally hate it!! I recieve more enjoyment out of seeing my students succeed and learn then I do out of all the certificates, plaques in the world.

I wish there were more true masters and less blowhards but unfortunetly there aren't. Ego as gotten in the way I think thats why there is not as many true masters.

I know a man who is based in Kokomo, IN that is more continent being called Mr. or Sensei then Kyoshi or Master and he is an 8th dan ranked direct from Okinawa. He is absolutely inspirational in the way he teaches and how he approaches things. A very kind man who leads by example not by ego nor by demand. He commands respect by his actions. To me this man is a true master.