I recently watched a seminar in TKD given by a Robert Summers school of TKD, It was the worst thing i've seen in a long time. The attacks they used in there sparring where so weak and fake it was brutal. When I asked how effective this style was in a street fight the teacher told me TKD was only useful when faceing somone that was using TKD, is this true?

"When I asked how effective this style was in a street fight the teacher told me WTF compatition style TKD was only useful when faceing somone that was using WTF compatition style TKD, is this true?" Yes.

*Bold text added by me if you haven't already figured it out."

If you would like to learn about real Taekwon-Do I suggest you read the encyclopedia. Or find someone that teaches the art of TKD, not the sport.

LOL

Originally posted by Jas

I recently watched a seminar in TKD given by a Robert Summers school of TKD, It was the worst thing i've seen in a long time. The attacks they used in there sparring where so weak and fake it was brutal. When I asked how effective this style was in a street fight the teacher told me TKD was only useful when faceing somone that was using TKD, is this true?
The teacher is full of ***** and doesn't know his TKD other than sport style.

I suggest you take military TKD and then can you come to another conclusion.

What is true here is that a competitor is limited in the types of attacks and the areas of the body that can be attacked in sport (WTF) taekwondo competition. However, that shouldn't indicate that TKD is not a useful self defense martial art. If all holds are off, and there are no rules I still like my chances using my TKD skills to defend myself in a street confrontation. Hopefully I would never let it escalate to that point. In any event, some TKD attacking and defensive techniques can be very effective if performed correctly. They won't stop bullets but still are very useful.

:yinyang:

TKD is a joke. In all the years i have been training I have only been in 2 tournaments. This is the type of emphesis that should be placed on tournaments in all styles. Why would you train in a martial art just so that you can use it as a sport. That defeats the whole purpose of the art. It was establised as a fighting art not jumping around playing tag.

Originally posted by rzusy

TKD is a joke. In all the years i have been training I have only been in 2 tournaments. This is the type of emphesis that should be placed on tournaments in all styles. Why would you train in a martial art just so that you can use it as a sport. That defeats the whole purpose of the art. It was establised as a fighting art not jumping around playing tag.
Ummm... Have you thought about the other aspect of it?

If there's a sport style to it, there's a combat version.

Hey MA, we agree on something.
I guess this is another one of those misconceptions people see about TKD all sport no art. :idunno:
Maybe nay-sayers should give the art a shot instead of a sporting comparision.

Hey guys maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough. I agree with you if tkd is done traditionaly then it is an excellent fighting art. What i'm saying though is that most tkd schools just worry about putting trophies up in their windows rather than prepare their students for real life situations.

Originally posted by MartialArtist

The teacher is full of ***** and doesn't know his TKD other than sport style.

I suggest you take military TKD and then can you come to another conclusion.

Sir, I would like to know more about Combat TKD. Can you give us more info, and who teaches it?

How does if differ, from say, ITF TKD?

Thanks for your help!:asian:

ya know, my TKD friends tell me that its fun. but they dont like how its geared more toward points and sport.

it doesnt mean that its not for real but most of it nowadays is probably more sporty

Originally posted by RCastillo

Sir, I would like to know more about Combat TKD. Can you give us more info, and who teaches it?

How does if differ, from say, ITF TKD?

Thanks for your help!:asian:
Forms or fancy high kicks are not the core of the training program. Most teachers are private instructors and the only place I've seen is Korea really.

Forms are still in the program. The technique for the forms are the BIGGEST thing on forms.

High kicks are also practiced because they help on your speed and agility. If you could kick high 10 times in 10 seconds, then you can kick lower much faster.

The reason why most MA's deal with sport because it is more popular. Take an average person, would he rather do something where he can win a trophy or go train to get injured. The previous is more appealing.

hmm if u take encylopedia of TKD by Gen Choi u'll see the difference
military TKD might be the traditional one... which doesn't emphasis on competition sparring...
i m blend with traditional(more of it) n competition
i guess the teacher was quite rite...from his knowledge point of view...
-TkdWarrior-

Taekwon Do is great kicking art that is beautiful to watch. I am a 6th kup right now and I have studied under two ITF organisations.

I left the first one because all I learned was patterns and sparring, geared towards competition. I learned no actual real situation self defence techniques. Assailants on the street don't spar they attack.

The organisation I'm currently with, all I've done is patterns and sparring, geared towards competition. So far no self defence techniques.

I know I will be condemned for saying this, but as time goes on Tkd (that's ITF as well as WTF) is getting more sport orientated. I know there is whats known as Military Tkd around, but not everybody is priveliged enough to have access to such training as Tkd was originally intended.

Tkd also seems to struggle against the arts with good hand techniques. Only last week I saw on sattelite tv a male Tkd blackbelt champion beaten by a female karateka. She just picked up on what most other styles immediately exploit when facing Tkd exponents. All she done was feint and drive forward, as most Tkd people spend too much time on one leg, they are either driven off the mat or knocked down.

But as I said, Tkd is great to watch with beautiful kicks. It's a shame that some people have forgotten that Tkd was a martial art intended for health and personal well being and not just for plastic trophies.

My appologies in advance for any offence taken.

celtic bhoy

Pity they didn't bother teaching ho son sul, punching, kicking or blocking at your dojangs. (All of which I'm told can be effective in discouraging assailants) Must be very limiting.

I am a 5th gup in WTF TKD and I've been taught numerous self-defense techniques, exposed to numerous street scenarios, and general taught that martial arts are training for life, not just for the street. I will agree that the future of TKD is in peril and will soon become a sport for the majority. I hope there are a number of practitioneers that are willing to maintain the non-sport aspect. I must be luck that my teacher covers all areas of the martial arts and throws in some Hapkido, Akido, and down-home bar brawling with the wisdom of his years.


"It's not the destation, but the journey"

i hav been into TKD from last 3 or more years..i hav learnt punchin,kickin, grappling(standup), defenses/counters against grapplings,
TKD does seems to be in trouble but that TKD is basically Sparring version... if u try any student from my class u'll find the difference..(tho some of them hav probs with close in quatres)...
wat my teacher teaches is almost out of the book by Gen Choi...
we put emphasis on every thing, forms, techniques, kicks/punches/grappling, sparring, self defense, psychological aspects of MA, wat else...
but it's pity ITF TKD is pure H2H fighting system...no weapons.. :(
tho my teacher hav learnt tonfa n i hav learnt nunchaku n some knife..

-TkdWarrior-

Just out of curiousity, what is the point of learning antiquated weapons that you really can't use anywhere, ever? I can see the value of learning how to use a knife, staff, sticks and chains etc, (stuff you'd be likely to be able to grab out of an alley etc, or carry without being accosted) but sword forms, nunchaku etc seem to be of virtually no self-defense value now. Fun stuff to learn I suppose, but almost totally useless except for the sake of it looking cool.

Aside from that, I don't think sport TKD's winning so overwhelmingly. Most of the TKD'ers I've run across have decent groundings in some form of standup grappling (ho son sul) and they're capable of punching and kicking. That's from WTF, ITF (now unaffiliated, but up til a month ago were ITF at least) and even ATA practitioners.

Okay devil's advocate time . . . How can you properly defend yourself against a weapon without knowing how to use and the limitations of the weapon?

I can understand that, but just to take that a bit further, what are the odds that you're going to be attacked by someone wielding a sword, spear, sai, nagatana, nunchaku, cat of nine tails, bokken, flail, or some other weapon that's outdated/obselete and never carried due to legality/bulk issues these days?

Tonfa's the closest thing you'd have to worry about out of all of those, and only then if you anticipate police attacking you with nightsticks on a regular basis. ;)

Still seems to me that it'd be more productive to focus on weapons you're likely to see outside of the training hall. Training with a sword in anticipation of being able to defend against a sword wielding attacker's about the equivalent of a peanut factory constantly drilling in anticipation of an elephant barging in.

well it's true that not many ppl carry weapons like sword nunchaku etc etc... but as long dow said "How can you properly defend yourself against a weapon without knowing how to use and the limitations of the weapon"...
it's true too...
well for street wise i m thinking of FMA(rattan sticks) as blades r illegal in my place(even a pencil cutter could put u behind the bars :( )
as far as standup grappling is concerned in TKD if any teacher follows the complete curriculum then it starts rite from white belt..
most of my mates know this, they'll hav probs with shooting takedowns...

-TkdWarrior-

Yes true, you won't see someone carrying a sword around, however what are swords similar too? If I happen to be in a pub, and some joker wants to take a swing at me with a pool cue? You mentioned a chain in your earlier posting . . . . how about applying that to a nunchuku. Stick training is great too because there are so many things with similar attributes to a stick.
I'm not saying I don't agree with you about certain impracticalities of weapons training, but there is definately more than meets the eye when it comes to knowing how to use a weapon

Knowing just various blocks, strikes and kicks is very limiting when your attacked from behind or on the floor.

Like Kung Fu and Karate (which has stood the test of time), Tkd should be allowed to evolve. I don't believe a style as young as Tkd should be set in stone just yet.

If the political structure of Tkd ever gets settled, then there should be a periodic assessment and maybe updates of technique to Tkd. Which I believe should only be done with the involvment of Master Choi Jung Hwa.

Tkd would not suffer for the additions of takedowns, sweeps and locks etc.

Happy Halloween!!

Uh, TKD's not lacking those CB. (That's what people have been telling you in this thread.)

Actually Marginal, TKD is lacking as it is limited to just striking and kicking. Speaking from Kukkiwon standpoint, (I can't speak from the ITF organization(s)) what the base to be taught on is just the kicking/striking basics and poomse, and sparring (step and olympic) HOWEVER, this is just the base and it's up to individual instrucotrs to give their students a fuller understanding. There is nothing that says instructors must only teach what is outlined, it is the base and that is where alot of TKD practicioners are getting joint locks/ground fighting and even weapons training out of it.

I find all the extras very complimentary to what I know already and as CB said this is how the evolution of TKD is taking place, but the basis of pure TKD is kicking and striking, which can be quite limiting.

Yeah, I had a somewhat heated discussion on that point a while back. ;)

Anyway, I'm not going to debate that TKD's a striking art. (OTOH, I dont' cinsider striking useless like CB seems to imply.) I personally study under the USTF syllabus which includes requirements for releases, take downs etc as you progress through the belts. I know a few local WTF style practitioners, and they've been supplimented with Combat Hapakido (which looks a lot like our basic ho son sul stuff)

what is tang soo do? isnt it a more traditional art that's alot like TKD?


and on the subject of weapons, my instructors usually stressed weapons for reasons OTHER than fighting. reasons like balance, coordination, energy training, etc. almost all my training has been cma, though and we have such a huge variety of weapons, it becomes evident to onesself that youre not actually learning combat with weapons so much as you are learning adaptability.

"If the political structure of Tkd ever gets settled"
then wat? nuthin dude...politics should not be there... even if structure get settled nothin would be achieved ...
IMHO i think there's period assesemt of techniques n then changing(evolving) in ITF styles(that's wat i see) n wat i know Gen Choi keep evolving TKD as a Martial art not Martial sport...
-TkdWarrior-

To a point I agree with TKDwarrior, even if politics get smoothed out it doesn't solve the problems. As I look in my crystal ball, this is how I see the future playing out. The new ITF Leader will eventually bend to the political pressure of WTF. It takes a very special person to take a stand and since the new leader is not blood family I don't believe his resolve is as strong as Gen. Choi's son would be on the issue. I believe at the point the two groups become one that most ITF and WTF disenchanted will either create a new organization or one of the other Korean arts will wisely welcome them with open arms. Bottomline is that I believe that the path that WTF is presently following will lead to their failure. The system works only if the power stays in Korea, eventually the numbers of members in other countries will overwhelm and changes will be made. When this happens in a year or 100 years; I'm running for cover cause it aint going to be pretty! Just some thoughts.

"It is the destination, but the journey that build character"

Seems like ITFV's working very hard to get rid of their members anyway. Lots of resignations and/or expulsions...

Back to the weapon thinggie:

Yes true, you won't see someone carrying a sword around, however what are swords similar too? If I happen to be in a pub, and some joker wants to take a swing at me with a pool cue? You mentioned a chain in your earlier posting . . . . how about applying that to a nunchuku. Stick training is great too because there are so many things with similar attributes to a stick.

I suppose so. OTOH, I'd think training with a bo would be closer to a pool cue, vs a sword and training with a chain would be more likely to produce proficiency with a chain over two long pieces of wood connected by short chain/rope.

That said, "It's just cool" is pretty much all the excuse soemone needs to train with those obselete weapons. ;) Not to mention the value of keeping certain traditions alive etc. I've just been thinking about the topic for a while after seeing some pictures of people performing ritual seppiku ceremonies as part of their training. (Just going through the motions, not cutting anything!) I had to ask myself, is that valueable?

I mean, there's nobody that's going to need to kill themselves to follow their lords into death now etc. Nobody follows that concept of honor anymore, so such ceremonies hold no meaning now.

Kinda bled over into lots of things which are traditional, but not as functional as they were when they were invented. Seems like there's a firm belief that the older a art is, the better. OTOH, performing a form designed to teach a spear wielder how to dismount an attacker on a horse just doesn't have much application anymore. (Barring some Mad Max style future that is.)

Originally posted by Marginal

Just out of curiousity, what is the point of learning antiquated weapons that you really can't use anywhere, ever? I can see the value of learning how to use a knife, staff, sticks and chains etc, (stuff you'd be likely to be able to grab out of an alley etc, or carry without being accosted) but sword forms, nunchaku etc seem to be of virtually no self-defense value now. Fun stuff to learn I suppose, but almost totally useless except for the sake of it looking cool.

Aside from that, I don't think sport TKD's winning so overwhelmingly. Most of the TKD'ers I've run across have decent groundings in some form of standup grappling (ho son sul) and they're capable of punching and kicking. That's from WTF, ITF (now unaffiliated, but up til a month ago were ITF at least) and even ATA practitioners.
Yeah, they don't need to train extensively in those weapons. However, they do help.

Just like people in the military in the 19th and early 20th century boxed... Not so much as hand-to-hand but rather, it helped them in bayonnet fighting.

A bat can be used as a heavy sword.

Weapon training takes awareness, lots of footwork, coordination, and timing that goes well with hand-to-hand. In fact, when I first started training, it was with long sticks. Only that the master didn't hold back TOO much and had no problem in hitting us. But, the reason we used the sword was to develop instinct, awareness, and the ability to think and act quickly, make openings to attack, use footwork, etc.

If you can feign an opponent with a sword and attack him successfully, that takes great skill considering how much slower the sword is than your fists and considering the range of the weapons.

what is tang soo do? isnt it a more traditional art that's alot like TKD
Tang soo do, is basically Moo duk Kwan. The Moo duk kwan, taught Tang soo do prior to the unification of the kwan's to form the KTA (Korean Taekwondo Association) Hwang Kee, who was the first Kwang Jang of the school. He later opposed the the unification of the kwan's for various reasons and the Moo duk kwan split, either going the way of Taekwondo unification or with Hwang Kee, who formed the Tang soo do association. That's the very brief story of it.

So yup it is alot like TKD as it had influences on the TKD development.

The new ITF Leader will eventually bend to the political pressure of WTF

Ummm . . . nope, for a variety of reasons. First of which . . . which ITF leader? There's so far 3 that I've counted. And secondly the WTF is not pressuring the ITF to do anything, they don't have too. Here's proof as a response to an ITF official claiming otherwise.

http://www.albertataekwondo.com/tkd_info/tiger-studios-info/merger.htm

Bottomline is that I believe that the path that WTF is presently following will lead to their failure

Which path? The sporting path? There's nothing that I've heard or read that shows any indication of that. It's also good to remeber that the WTF is a sporting organization much like the NHL, NBA, NFL, or any other sporting league (okay so we don't get payed to fight but you get the idea) As long as there is the sport there will be the WTF. I'm not saying it won't happen in a long time from now, but I'm not saying it will happen either, right now I see it as fairly stable.

Langdow, If you have spend any time in the political arena outside of the martial arts, you will find the any statement made by a figurehead or organization is only good until they finnish talking. ITF may make staements now that might be different tommorrow, depending on who's ox is getting gored. Give it time and you will see the change. The only constant in the world is change. Comparing WTF to NFL, NHL, ro NBA is a poor comparision. No matter were you go in the world NBA baskettball is the same and basketball is basically the same with few exception the world over. WTF is taught differently from Dojang to Dojang and the rules are different from contest to contest. A better comparsion would be to compare WTF to Professional Figure skating, teach is a bit different from coach to coach and competions are highly subjective in officiating. I don't believe I state when this scenario would happen, just that eventually it will happen.:shrug:

"it's not the destination, but the journey that builds character"

Yes I agree with you about the political statement only being as good as the figurehead on that day, and I am looking forward to positive changes from the ITF in the future.


WTF is taught differently from Dojang to Dojang and the rules are different from contest to contest

Sorry I'm still not completely agreeing with this. Yes schools that are WTF affliated do have different teaching styles, and do teach different things, but that has to do more with the art of TKD, not the sport and WTF is a sport organization. Coaches in all sports coach differently than the next coach. They know how to get results using the drills they know so they stick with those.

As for the rules, they are all the same under the WTF. There may be some small changes such as no head contact for children under the age of 14 but the rules are the same from white belt all the way to Olympic competitors. This is the same in basketball as well, as hockey, soccer etc . . . rules are basically the same with small variations for age and skill level of competitors.

As for the officiating, I have yet to see a sport where the officials are completely 100% unbiased. At the professional levels it's much better mind you from NBA to pro figure skating and officals do make mistakes, they aren't supposed to and if you ask them they'll say they didn't but they do ;)