If you ever watched "Grizzly Adams" as a child, you saw more then your share of "Indian Wrestling". Anyone familiar with and can shed light upon Native American H2H styles and techniques? Thanks.

Kwe Hello, I used to watch Grizzly Adams too! I'm an Enrolled Kahnawake Mohawk as far as I know the way Children were taught was thru Games like stick and hoop , lacrosse(attsihkwa'e) , wrestling etc
No rigid training ala Dojo, I'd liken it more to the, hate to say it, Miyagi-do of Karate Kid where you're taught without actually realizing you're being taught eh. Learned to shoot a bow at an early age, and expected to hunt small game to help fill the belly's of the rest of the band.

Having said this, I'm NOT an authority and I am a mere 42 so can't say for certain how my Ancestors trained at the height of their Power(During the Beaver Wars)
This is just the way it was told to me, other Nations may have trained their boys differently.

I have seen several systems advertised, Tushkahoma from Adrian Roman and theres an Apache Knife fighting system out there tho the Gentlemans name eludes me at the moment


Skennen Peace

I’m a registered and enrolled member of the Shinnecock tribe on my father’s side, and a registered and enrolled member of the Wind River Shoshone on my mother’s side, so I can add a little something about the Eastern Woodland natives as well as a little on those of the plains.

Just a little, though…..

This is the way it was told to me:

As far as wrestling goes, it's pretty much as Kwiter has said, though i should add that there are games that developed wrestling specific skills, and there were also competitions in those games, from time to time.

In the eastern woodlands, warriors honed their archery, knife and war club skills through lifelong training, but that doesn’t mean the methods weren’t systemized. Prior to the arrival of the Europeans, knives were made of bone and antler, and tomahawks were made of stone. Methods that would be taught to young boys included the fashioning of tools, as well as their use. Warfare was a huge part of tribal life, and “counting coup” was not the norm, as it was on the plains; lives were viciously taken, often under torturous circumstances. My dad used to joke that our ancestors were a big reason why Indians across the land were met with such fear and violence-they gave European settlers plenty of reason to be scared.

The club most of the eastern tribes were known for is called the ga je wa in Algonquian (all names given here are in Algonquian, as they’re how I know them. The Cherokee and other southern Indians used the same sort of clubs, but they called them something else) or ball club, which was actually more of a wooden sword, a fire hardened and polished piece of wood with a long sharp edge to go with its heavy ball end. Methods of use were taught ranging from crippling techniques-such as blows that directed the edge to tendons- to killing techniques, as well as methods of execution, as this was a primary method of enforcing civil control in the Five Nations.

According to early historical accounts, Indians along the eastern seaboard demonstrated impressive skill in using war clubs and were favorably compared to European fencing masters. If you saw the 1992 movie Last of the Mohicans, you saw the gajewa employed fairly authentically, as my friend and fellow lacrosse player Lewis K. Tall Bear was the fight coordinator for those sequences.

The warriors of old also played a lacrosse-type sport, called baggataway or the “ball game” in which they employed war club–sized ball sticks and played in a way reminiscent of combat with war clubs. It’s entirely possible that if you could view an inter tribal lacrosse league in upstate New York, you would see the sticks employed in ways that are mostly illegal in the more familiar modern version of the game. I know that’s how I played in my youth, anyway.

With the arrival of Europeans, metal tomahawks took the place of stone headed clubs,and steel knives took the place of those made of bone or antler, but the methods of employment were probably not changed too much, and the gajewa continued to be carried, both as a weapon as well as a symbol of status and authority.

The gajewa is something of a collectors item today, with authentic examples being extremely valuable, and even modern replicas fetching hundreds of dollars.

Briefly, because I can say very little, one may find some semblance of what were possibly systemized methods of the plains martial techniques for the lance, shield and war club in modern pow-wow "war dances" that employ those tools.

As for the various "Native Martial Arts Masters," I have nothing to say about the majority of them-especially Adrian Roman.

I do know a student of Robert Redfeather (that’s the “Apache” knife fellow brother kwiter referred to);he's on the lab's protective force special response team, though he did also have a long background in Filipino martial arts before meeting Mr. Redfeather, and through him and video, I’ve seen some of Mr. Redfeather’s material . From the little I've seen it's entirely possible that his methods were taught to him as Apache, but I think they may have evolved from a 16th or 17th century exposure to Spanish knife fighting methods, as many of the terms used are the same, when translated, as those used in methods such as acero sevillano.

Nice couple of posts guys.....very interesting stuff indeed. I am just really starting to get into some tomahawk work so this thread has really peaked my interest.

Too give a fair shake & no favorates on any tribe I sugguest see the dvd set 5000 nations.Historicaly done to show all of the ways.This should help a bit.

Too give a fair shake & no favorates on any tribe I sugguest see the dvd set 5000 nations.Historicaly done to show all of the ways.This should help a bit.

Actually, it's 500 Nations, and, while it's an excellent video, it hardly touches on the question at all-in fact, the only aspects of Indian warfare that it really covers well are the ones mentioned.....er...by me.

I've heard some martial horsemanship survives among some nations, you won't hear about it as they aren't trying to sell you anything. Is this really anybody's business? Exploitation on the horizon, pictures of native american warriors on the walls of training halls. Sacred rituals sold as trinkets, like dragon pendants and tshirts and how a lot of studios look like chinese restaurants, except a bunch of people will be running around in buckskins acting like idiots. There was a tragedy, a near genocide. A great shame upon our country. People have lost enough, don't need exploitation.

Actually, it's 500 Nations, and, while it's an excellent video, it hardly touches on the question at all-in fact, the only aspects of Indian warfare that it really covers well are the ones mentioned.....er...by me.

I wanted to say thanks for that information you posted. Very interesting and informative; I really appreciate it because it is hard to find accurate info on 1st nation combat methods today.

I will say as to knives made of flint and stone to anyome else wondering about them; these can be VERY sharp. You can dress an animal -strip it completely of meat, hide, bone, etc. for use - very easily and effectively with a stone blade. I would imagine that these tools could be very combat effective. So, there is no doubt in my mind that there were blade related combat methodologies prior to the European invasion/influence.

Also, as to Mr. Redfeathers material:

A few months ago I had the chance to view some of his video material. I thought that it was really appliable stuff; very similar to some of the methods we use (not that we do anything specifically "Native," but fighting is fighting). I was pleasently impressed with it. I could see what you mean by possible Spanish/European influence however. I don't see this as a bad thing though; most effective combat methods aren't afraid to evolve when faced with different sets of challanges from different cultures.

Anyways, thanks for the relavent info. I'll be reading anything ya got along the lines of Native American combat for sure. :)

Paul

If you are looking for a good instructional book on the TOMAHAWK then look for Col Dwight McLemore's book FIGHTING TOMAHAWK from Paladin Press. Very good information on real and even 20 th century "practical" applications of the weapon.

It even covers the ball-head warclub.
I have a plastic tomahawk trainer that I sell on my site. Check it out
http://www.woodlandarchery.com/Tomahawks.htm

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

Hi Jeremy,

Nice to see you here. I have one of your hawks and love it....great training tool. What he says about Col McLemores book is correct....great to train with him....also if anyone is interested try to get some training time in with Steve Huff.

If you ever watched "Grizzly Adams" as a child, you saw more then your share of "Indian Wrestling". Anyone familiar with and can shed light upon Native American H2H styles and techniques? Thanks.

I learned alittle Cherokee wrestling when I was younger, there was a huge focus on clitch fighting, sweeps, take downs and ground fighting. Kicking, forearm, knee and elbow strikes where the prefered striking methods. Otherwise not much else that hasn't already been said...

If you are looking for a good instructional book on the TOMAHAWK then look for Col Dwight McLemore's book FIGHTING TOMAHAWK from Paladin Press. Very good information on real and even 20 th century "practical" applications of the weapon.

It even covers the ball-head warclub.
I have a plastic tomahawk trainer that I sell on my site. Check it out
http://www.woodlandarchery.com/Tomahawks.htm

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

Thanks for the info! I'd love for you to start a thread in Western Martial Arts on this topic for us to discuss since you seem to be particularly knowledgeable about this aspect. Thanks. - Jonathan

If you are looking for a good instructional book on the TOMAHAWK then look for Col Dwight McLemore's book FIGHTING TOMAHAWK from Paladin Press. Very good information on real and even 20 th century "practical" applications of the weapon.

It even covers the ball-head warclub.
I have a plastic tomahawk trainer that I sell on my site. Check it out
http://www.woodlandarchery.com/Tomahawks.htm

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

I'm quite fond of Col. McLemore's work, but it isn't really Native American, strictly speaking-it's quite European, and even nautical in nature. The axe/tomahawk and long knife combination were utilized in Europe and the Caribbean by sailors:in the days when firearms were less reliable, these were tools used by boarding parties after discharging a flintlock.Remember, the Indians didn't have a metal tomahawk until the arrival of the Europeans, and adapted their methods to it. Given the nature of the tool, the transition was natural, and it's a given that the methods would have some similarities.

It's great stuff, though...

I'm quite fond of Col. McLemore's work, but it isn't really Native American, strictly speaking-it's quite European, and even nautical in nature. The axe/tomahawk and long knife combination were utilized in Europe and the Caribbean by sailors:in the days when firearms were less reliable, these were tools used by boarding parties after discharging a flintlock.Remember, the Indians didn't have a metal tomahawk until the arrival of the Europeans, and adapted their methods to it. Given the nature of the tool, the transition was natural, and it's a given that the methods would have some similarities.

It's great stuff, though...

Definitely European but really better to call it "American" I would think. While the use of a small axe cannot be said to be the strict property of one region or culture, there is a certain colonial/frontier feel to the material in the Col's book that separates this work from being just an European transplant.

He does site Van Horne's doctoral thesis on the warclub as a major influence on his studies. I know a while back that same thesis was online but I have been unable to find it as of late.

The Col. is a member here on MT iirc...perhaps we could coax him into this conversation?

Wikipedia has a bit of a description of early lacrosse games, I can't vouche for its accuracy but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacrosse

The sport was invented by Native North Americans. Its name was dehuntshigwa'es in Onondaga ("men hit a rounded object"), da-nah-wah'uwsdi in Eastern Cherokee ("little war"), Tewaarathon in Mohawk language ("little brother of war"), and baaga'adowe in Ojibwe ("bump hips"). The game was named lacrosse by early French observers. It is commonly assumed that the name stems from the French term "crosse", for the shepherd's crooklike crosier carried by bishops as a symbol of office. Pieffe Francois Xavier de Charlevoix noted the resemblance between the crosier and the shape of the racket stick in 1719. However, the term crosse, which also translates as bat, was applied to the Native playing stick by the Jesuit fathers nearly a century before. Since there was only one ball, early players concentrated on first injuring their opponents with their sticks, and then moving easily to the goal. Their pitch was about one kilometre by one kilometre. Games sometimes lasted for days, and often players were gravely injured or even killed. Early balls were made out of the heads of the enemy, deerskin, clay, stone, and sometimes wood. Lacrosse has played a significant role in the community and religious life of tribes across the continent for many years. Early lacrosse was characterized by deep spiritual involvement, befitting the spirit of combat in which it was undertaken. Those who took part did so in the role of warriors, with the goal of bringing glory and honor to themselves and their tribes, and as a religious ritual[4]. The game was said to be played "for the pleasure of the Creator."


Lacrosse has witnessed great modifications since its origins in the 1400s, but many aspects of the sport remain the same. In the Native North American version, each team consisted of about 100 to 1,000 men on a field that stretched from about 500 to 800 metres with some fields being several kilometres long. Rather than having traditional goals where the ball has to pass through goal posts, many of the Native teams used a large rock or tree as their goal. They would hit the deerskin ball against the goal to earn points. The medicine-men acted as umpires, and the women urged on the men by beating them with switches. These lacrosse games lasted from sun up to sun down for two to three days. These games were played to settle inter-tribal disputes and also used to toughen young braves in preparation for future combat.

The game became known to Westerners when a French Jesuit Missionary, Jean de Brébeuf, saw the Iroquois Natives play it in 1636. In 1763, after Canada had become British, the game was used by the Natives to carry out an ingenious piece of treachery. On the 4th of June, when the garrison of Fort Michilimackinac (now Mackinac) was celebrating the king's birthday, it was invited by the Ottawas, under their chief Pontiac, to witness a game of "baggataway" (lacrosse). The players gradually worked their way close to the gates, when, throwing aside their crosses and seizing their tomahawks which the women suddenly produced from under their blankets, they rushed into the fort and massacred all the inmates, lest a few Frenchmen.

By the 1800s, lacrosse evolved to become less violent and more of a sport as French pioneers began competing. In 1867, W. George Beers, a Canadian dentist, codified the game, shortening the length of each game and reducing the number of players to ten per team. The first poop game played under Beers' rules was at Upper Canada College in 1867, with Upper Canada College losing to the Toronto Cricket Club by a score of 3-1. By the 1900s, high schools, colleges, and universities began playing the game, and lacrosse was contested as a medal sport in the 1904 and 1908 Olympics.

Definitely European but really better to call it "American" I would think.

Agreed.Another reason why I prefer to use the word "Indian," there.....:lol:

I'm quite fond of Col. McLemore's work, but it isn't really Native American, strictly speaking-it's quite European, and even nautical in nature. The axe/tomahawk and long knife combination were utilized in Europe and the Caribbean by sailors:in the days when firearms were less reliable, these were tools used by boarding parties after discharging a flintlock.Remember, the Indians didn't have a metal tomahawk until the arrival of the Europeans, and adapted their methods to it. Given the nature of the tool, the transition was natural, and it's a given that the methods would have some similarities.

It's great stuff, though...

Thanks for the clarification. Still Western Martial Arts. It's also interesting to remember that the European Spaniards introduced horses to the Americas as well.

He does site Van Horne's doctoral thesis on the warclub as a major influence on his studies. I know a while back that same thesis was online but I have been unable to find it as of late.

I have talked to Dr. Wayne Van Horne about his thesis and information. You can contact him at Kennesaw State University via email wvanhorn@kennesaw.edu and ask for a copy of his thesis called "War clubs and falcon warriors : war club use in southeastern native American chiefdoms". He will usually send you one for the price of postage. It was once on the Internet but I can no longer find it.

It was also published in part in a book called "Combat, ritual, and performance : anthropology of the martial arts / edited by David E. Jones." published in 2002. It is a little stuffy but some good history inside.

Another great book on Native American warfare is called THE SKULKING WAY OF WAR. Amazon.com has it here
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1568331657/sr=8-1/qid=1153335063/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-5864903-7736068?ie=UTF8

Thanks,
Jeremy Bays

It's actually an old prejudiced white guy myth that the spanish introduced horses to the america's. Horses were already here, such as stallions, mustangs, and paints. Although, only a few tribes were using horses.
There are only a few common techniques in Skin's hand to hand combat techniques. Skin's fight low to the ground, almost like we're bent over. One defense technique I've seen a lot in defending against a spears thrust is to knock the spear down to the ground and then step on it. Also, another common principle is to fight like an animal (a lot of people prefer a bear). There isn't a lot of ground fighting. There's grabing, pushing, pulling, tripping in order to throw someone to the ground. There is a common stomping technique. In tomahawk and knife fighting most Skins prefer an icepick grip. The torrso and neck are the main targets. There aren't any standardized punches or kicks. In striking there are only three main directions and an occational fourth. One is a hammer type strike. Another is the thrust (usually just with the spear). The most common is the forehand (much like a hook). The occational fourth is a back forehand (it doesn't look like a karate backhand). There is also a common frontal choke/push type technique. The basic idea in defense is to knock the threat away as quickly as possible. Then Skin fighting has its own unique footwork. Basically footwork is performed on the balls of the feet.

I forget to mention a common Skin principle is to strike you where you aren't looking/defending. So against multiple attackers Skins defend against all directions.

Bobbo,

1. What's a "skin?"

2. Where did you get your information from? Have you trained in any of this material? Tell us about it...

3. Do you have any sources to back up your claim about the horses? The research I have seen had declared that European settlers brought horses, but that could be mistaken for all I know. Would have to see the evidence to determine that, though...

Thanks!

Bobbo,

1. What's a "skin?"


3. Do you have any sources to back up your claim about the horses? The research I have seen had declared that European settlers brought horses, but that could be mistaken for all I know. Would have to see the evidence to determine that, though...

Thanks!

1.-It's kind of like rappers using the "n" word-short for "redskin," but I think you knew that.:idunno: :rolleyes:

3.Well, it's now subject to debate-though not usually a very lengthy one.

The paleontological data indicates that approximately 11,000 years ago a variety of animals went extinct across North America. These were mostly mammals larger than approximately 44 kg (about 100 pounds). Some of the animals that went extinct are well known (like saber-toothed cats, mammoths, and mastodons). Others were less well known animals (like the short-faced skunk and the giant beaver). Some animals went extinct in North America but survived elsewhere, for example, horses and tapirs

The relatively new (27-year-old) field of molecular biology, using mitochondrial-DNA analysis, has recently found that the modern or caballine horse, E. caballus, is genetically equivalent to E. lambei, a horse, according to fossil records, that represented the most recent Equus species in North America prior to extinction. Not only is E. caballus genetically equivalent to E. lambei, but no evidence exists for the origin of E. caballus anywhere except North America.

According to the work of Uppsala University researcher Ann Forstén, of the Department of Evolutionary Biology, the date of origin, based on mutation rates for mitochondrial-DNA, for E. caballus, is set at approximately 1.7 million years ago in North America. Now the debate becomes one of whether the older paleontological fossil data or the modern molecular biology data more accurately provide a picture of horse evolution. So, it's possible that the horse was here all along, but more likely that e. caballus is the desendent of e. lambei that emigrated across the Bering land bridge sometime prior to 11,000 years ago...

Additionally, the oral history of most plains Indians, especially those known for horsemanship,relate that they did not know what horses were when they first saw them. It's additionally supported linguistically, in that many of the native words for "horse," call it some sort of dog.Before Europeans introduced the horse to North America, the dog was used as a method of transportation, pulling sleds, travois, and carrying heavy loads.

In any case, "paints," mustangs (from the Spanish mustengp, for "ownerless beast"-essentially, any wild horse), and the curly horse can trace their genetic material directly back to the multicolored horses and Andalusians that the Spanish brought to North America-I know, because I own a couple.....

Cool...I usually call myself "white devil" among friends :lol: ;)

I knew about the info you posted (nice btw), but to me that evidence points more towards the notion that horses were brought here as far as native american heritage is concerned. I was more or less wondering if Mr. Bobbo had different data to counter the idea....

:)

I forget to mention a common Skin principle is to strike you where you aren't looking/defending. So against multiple attackers Skins defend against all directions.

Sir, if you are refferring to Native Americans as "Skins", please refrain from doing so in the future.

Sir, if you are refferring to Native Americans as "Skins", please refrain from doing so in the future.

Yea...seriously....

Mr. Randall, since you asked I will refrain from using the word skin. I did not realize I was making people uncomfortable. I did not use or intend it as a racist remark.

About the horses, I got the information coming from a person who helped start the American Paint Association. Also, from horse rancher and spanish cowboy stories and prejudices. Also, from reports of anthropology studies that have discovered types of saddles made by plains tribes dated before any European met the plains' peoples.

As far as me knowing about Native fighting techniques and principles. Native fighting is one of the three fighting arts I practise fervently. Arnes was my first, then I learned Native, and about the same time I learned western millitary. Native fighting isn't as complex as other fighting arts, but it definately isn't learned over nite.

By the way, if you are wondering, other than Ta'alog ancestry, I am Native. I am of the Wind Clan of the Muscogee Nation.

You will find several people are still maintaining Indian ponies. Even Indian cattle. Yes Different nations maintained Horses/ ponies They kept. And are kept and bred today. The cherokee Had the cherokee pony about 14 hands tall choctaw had the choctaw pony Cherokee had the piney woods cattle The get about 800 pounds whewn grown were easy to control and round up after they grazed the piney woods of the east Carolina Gorigia. Now days the piney wood cattle are kept as a link to the past novelty, and history. These ponies and cattle were the early settlers introduction to the native culture. War clubs arrows, darts/ blow guns. tomahawks Though they changed much from exposer of the settlers to steel. Were used by the different nations. The old word bury the hatchet It came from when the different nations were at war the pole outside of the round house where the hatchet were set into at the time of the waring then pulled and buryed to show the end to the war. This was told to me as a cherokee as part of the history. And I have seen the cherokee ponies and the piney wood cattle indian people fought as they had to hunted for food Many have 7 clans. And the woman was respected and the man married outside his clan Then moved to the womans clan. And the children they had became part of that clan. This controled what was believed the members of your clan was your close relitives Martial art is not indian. Keeping the language alive passing down the culture. Knowing who you are That is important when the language dies. when the culture dies, when the people start to see who they were has died. Thats better research and understanding then learning how the different nations had to fight or learn how to fight. First they had to learn to survive then learn to live in a world that tryed to destory them And they came back strong and will allways be If they can hang onto at least there language.

Robert lee and Bobbo,

All this stuff, regarding the horse claim as other claims, are an interesting read, but anecdotal and therefore unverified unless you can point me to a strong reference that says otherwise.

Paul

Here is an article that summerizes most of what I have read regarding the horse in America:

http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0300/frameset_reset.html?http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0300/stories/0301_0111.html

About the horses, I got the information coming from a person who helped start the American Paint Association. Also, from horse rancher and spanish cowboy stories and prejudices. Also, from reports of anthropology studies that have discovered types of saddles made by plains tribes dated before any European met the plains' peoples.
.

While it's true that plains tribes did have saddles, they were used rather rarely, as they were uncomfortable and dangerous things made of wood and leather-they were dangerous because of the fastening methods, both to cinch the saddle on the horse, and in the saddles construction-it's fairly unlikely, however, that saddles of such construction would have lasted from a pre-Conquistador period, had there ever been a need for them, and the few genuine articles date from the 1800's and well after-some even have metal fasteners (nails) in their construction.

From the American Paint Horse Association Webpage (http://www.apha.com/breed/history.html)


In 1519 the Spanish explorer Hernando Cortes sailed to the New World to find his fame and fortune. Along with his entourage of conquistadors, he brought horses to help his men search the vast land for riches. According to the Spanish historian Diaz del Castillo, who traveled with the expedition, one of the horses was described as a "pinto" with "white stockings on his forefeet." The other was described as a "dark roan horse" with "white patches." These were the first known recorded descriptions of early Paint Horses in the New World.

By the early 1800s, the western plains were generously populated by free-ranging herds of horses, and those herds included the peculiar spotted horse. Because of their color and performance, flashy, spotted horses soon became a favorite mount of the American Indian. The Comanche Indians, considered by many authorities to be the finest horsemen on the Plains, favored loud-colored horses and had many among their immense herds. Evidence of this favoritism is exhibited by drawings of spotted horses found on the painted buffalo robes that served as records for the Comanches. Throughout the 1800s and late into the 1900s, these spotted horses were called by a variety of names: pinto, paint, skewbald, piebald. In the late 1950s, a group dedicated to preserving the spotted horse was organized—the Pinto Horse Association. In 1962, another group of spotted horse enthusiasts organized an Association, but this group was dedicated to preserving both color and stock-type conformation—the American Paint Stock Horse Association (APSHA).

Here is an article that summerizes most of what I have read regarding the horse in America:

http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0300/frameset_reset.html?http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0300/stories/0301_0111.html I never said the horses or ponies were already here. I went to the site you posted and can agree to a point But also in the east the English brought horses also. But much more is to be said on what is the end to a way of life. and the begining to haveing to change and try to presurve some history and keep a language alive

I never said the horses or ponies were already here. I went to the site you posted and can agree to a point But also in the east the English brought horses also. But much more is to be said on what is the end to a way of life. and the begining to haveing to change and try to presurve some history and keep a language alive

My apologies. Based on the context of what Bobbo had said before your post about horses already being here prior to European exploration, I interpreted your post to mean that you were in agreement. My bad.

It is true, however, that Natives had developed there own way of keeping and using horses in hunting, battle, travel, and everyday life. Some tribes were known to be very skilled horsemen, among other things. I have heard that some people have preserved that tradition, as you have said.

Paul