Weak versus Strong

[hapki68]

I've got a question for everyone.

I'm 5 11 and 150 lbs. Although I work out, I'm thin and not as strong as most of the guys in my school who seem to be around 180-200 or more lbs. Although I know I'm supposed to believe that size and strength don't matter (everyone knows size matters!), I have a hard time really believing it. I can barely do some of the throws because I can't lift a 225lb guy across my shoulders and then throw him without being crushed under his weight. I end up like a doofus flat on the floor with him sitting on top of me. And some guys have wrists as thick as my leg, which makes it very hard to twist them into a wrist lock position.

On the up side, I've gotten really good at being thrown around and have mastered falls. :-)

It's easy for big guys to say it's all about technique when they can rely on muscle without evening knowing it. Hapkido is good, because it works on similar principles to aikido in terms of using the attacker's momentum against him... but I'm still unsure of the whole power differential.

Anyone else out there dealing with this same situation?

Patrick

[matt.m]

This is so simple, yet complex. I have my brown in judo and had wrestled for the marines as well as being a current hapkido practitioner so I will say this. I wear two leg braces for support so I have to go with the size doesn't matter camp. Although don't get me wrong, there are some techniqes I wouln't do or attempt on someone 50 lbs heavier or more than I.

I. A neat aspect is also the fact that height also matters when using some of the hapkido techniques.

II. Not every technique works every time.

It for the most part it comes down to the following question: Is the person off balance or are you off balance while trying to throw? If you are pulling or channeling the persons direction or are you not. That will determine if it is a successful throw or not. I have seen 5'2 110 lb women throw 6'0 200 lb men practicing the one arm throwing techniques.

Even in leg braces and being 5'6 at approx 170 lbs I have thrown people that are 6'1 and 230-235 with the standing fireman's carry arm bar wrist technique.

I believe it is harder for the beginner or newer practitioner because it takes a long time to understand the geometry and physics of throwing. I love doing it and don't really understand it well, except for bits and pieces.

Now to play devils advocate: If you have a bigger partner that is being a jackass and won't let you get a good fit, then you will never ever learn the throw correctly. I will say that some people are just bullies or bad partners and will not train effectively with anyone. I have been in that situation, it sucks, it really does. However, if your partner won't let you in for a shoulder throw then do something else such as an outerwinding or sweeping hip throw, possibly major outer reaping. Whatever, the point is to change to something else.

The best thing to do is just get your reps in, practice practice practice. I make mistakes, everyone does....however, practice practice practice.

[Bigshadow]

First, no, I am not dealing with that problem, I have the opposite problem, I am a big guy. However, before you just resign yourself to believing that size does matter, think about this....

Size only matters when you are trying to do something that is physically challenging. Science tells us size doesn't matter if we have the right lever and the correct fulcrum. So take this and apply it to your training. You will find, size does not matter. I can say this because I see my instructor who is about your size throwing me around the dojo without grunting, straining or breaking a sweat. If you don't have the right lever or the correct fulcrum, you are going work your ass off trying to throw someone.

--- This thread has the potential to going back to the "resisting opponent" issue. Be forewarned I predict it!

I am getting nice and comfy :-popcorn:

[celtic_crippler]

Proper body mechanics and execution is important to pulling off a throw or any other technique, but sometimes it just doesn't make sense to try attempt a throw.

I took a Judo class and the instructor pitted me against a guy that was about 6'2 and easily weighed 375 lbs (that's being nice, the guy had a weight problem.) I'm 6' and 225. I had to use a "prescribed" throw. After 3 attempts I finally swept the guys leg, but because of his weight and balance distrubution, he fell right on top of me. That sucked. The next day the inside of my foot was black and blue from "sweeping" his tree trunk leg. I would NEVER have attempted that in a real self defense scenario. It would just plain be stupid. Fight smarter, not harder.

In reference to strength...you size doesn't matter. You just have to strength train and increase your reps, etc.

[Martial Tucker]

First, no, I am not dealing with that problem, I have the opposite problem, I am a big guy. However, before you just resign yourself to believing that size does matter, think about this....

Size only matters when you are trying to do something that is physically challenging. Science tells us size doesn't matter if we have the right lever and the correct fulcrum. So take this and apply it to your training. You will find, size does not matter. I can say this because I see my instructor who is about your size throwing me around the dojo without grunting, straining or breaking a sweat. If you don't have the right lever or the correct fulcrum, you are going work your ass off trying to throw someone.

--- This thread has the potential to going back to the "resisting opponent" issue. Be forewarned I predict it!

I am getting nice and comfy :-popcorn:


This is correct. Without knowing how much experience you have, or having seen you train, I suspect you may have a problem with your foot placement, or your hip placement during the throw. First thing I would suggest is to slow down your movements a bit when practicing, making sure you are relaxed and breathing. Have your teacher watch you attempt a few basic throws an/or locks while going in a relaxed, half-speed manner.

[hapki68]

Thanks everyone... I'm pretty impressed with the advice I've been getting on here.

You're right... I don't think I go slowly enough during my workouts to really get the routines down. I think like a lot of newbies I concentrate more on moving quickly than getting it right.

Second, you're also right that I haven't developed a good understanding of the fulcrum idea. Now that I think about it, I'm typically off balance when I'm sparring. I need to expend more mental energy in figuring out when I'm balanced, how to stay there, and when my opponent is not. It's tough to do when you're still learning to avoid a strike coming at your face and remember how to move your arms and legs to execute a move.

Anyone have suggestions for improving your balance under duress or understanding the balance of your opponent?

P

[Bigshadow]

Anyone have suggestions for improving your balance under duress or understanding the balance of your opponent?

P
Yes... Try this...

1. Relax
2. Go SLLOOOOOWWWW
3. Don't think abou it, just DO.
4. Once you are getting the mechanics, speed it up a little.
5. Above all else, listen to your instructor

Hope this helps :)

[MJS]

I've got a question for everyone.

I'm 5 11 and 150 lbs. Although I work out, I'm thin and not as strong as most of the guys in my school who seem to be around 180-200 or more lbs. Although I know I'm supposed to believe that size and strength don't matter (everyone knows size matters!), I have a hard time really believing it. I can barely do some of the throws because I can't lift a 225lb guy across my shoulders and then throw him without being crushed under his weight. I end up like a doofus flat on the floor with him sitting on top of me. And some guys have wrists as thick as my leg, which makes it very hard to twist them into a wrist lock position.

On the up side, I've gotten really good at being thrown around and have mastered falls. :-)

It's easy for big guys to say it's all about technique when they can rely on muscle without evening knowing it. Hapkido is good, because it works on similar principles to aikido in terms of using the attacker's momentum against him... but I'm still unsure of the whole power differential.

Anyone else out there dealing with this same situation?

Patrick

Many great points!! Another thing to keep in mind, is that many times when we see someone with a size advantage, they tend to always rely on that, so instead of really getting a good solid understanding of the technique, they disregard that and muscle their way through things. I've seen it countless times in grappling matches.

So, as for your question about someone smaller throwing a larger person...yes, it can be done as long as that person is using proper technique.

Mike

[Rook]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3346298601525244862

Mifune demonstrates how judo throws much larger opponents.

[Martial Tucker]

Anyone have suggestions for improving your balance under duress or understanding the balance of your opponent?

P

In very general terms, get lower, stay relaxed, and breathe!

To do this without thinking requires many, many reps. Just make sure you take it slow until the mechanics are right.

[pstarr]

If, when you execute a throw, you feel your partner's weight bearing down on you, you're doing it wrong...

[AceHBK]

Size and strength does count in the equation.
U can have all the technique in the world but same opponent with just as good technique and you add in strength....well....Just ask Royce Gracie.

[mantis]

I've got a question for everyone.

I'm 5 11 and 150 lbs. Although I work out, I'm thin and not as strong as most of the guys in my school who seem to be around 180-200 or more lbs. Although I know I'm supposed to believe that size and strength don't matter (everyone knows size matters!), I have a hard time really believing it. I can barely do some of the throws because I can't lift a 225lb guy across my shoulders and then throw him without being crushed under his weight. I end up like a doofus flat on the floor with him sitting on top of me. And some guys have wrists as thick as my leg, which makes it very hard to twist them into a wrist lock position.

On the up side, I've gotten really good at being thrown around and have mastered falls. :-)

It's easy for big guys to say it's all about technique when they can rely on muscle without evening knowing it. Hapkido is good, because it works on similar principles to aikido in terms of using the attacker's momentum against him... but I'm still unsure of the whole power differential.

Anyone else out there dealing with this same situation?

Patrick
i kind of have the same sizes as yours, i was 5'10" and 160 lb's and the world was perfect then.
Something happened (lots of soda at work and junk snacks) i gained 10 more pounds in like 2 weeks or so. So i am 170+ now. disadvantages: i get tired faster, i have not much endurance as before, i cannot do my leg lifts properly, and most importantly it's embarrassing now to go to the pool man i look like a skinny guy with some fat around the stomach.. i can't describe how horrible it is.

Whatever you do make sure when you gain weight you gain it slowly and store it in your muscles. There are advantages of being lighter. If i were you i would learn how to live with it and take advantage of that.

the only time you can feel safe when putting on weight is when you work out at least 4 times a week (about 6+ hours) other than that you are probably gaining unhealthy fat

[DeLamar.J]

I've got a question for everyone.

I'm 5 11 and 150 lbs. Although I work out, I'm thin and not as strong as most of the guys in my school who seem to be around 180-200 or more lbs. Although I know I'm supposed to believe that size and strength don't matter (everyone knows size matters!), I have a hard time really believing it. I can barely do some of the throws because I can't lift a 225lb guy across my shoulders and then throw him without being crushed under his weight. I end up like a doofus flat on the floor with him sitting on top of me. And some guys have wrists as thick as my leg, which makes it very hard to twist them into a wrist lock position.

On the up side, I've gotten really good at being thrown around and have mastered falls. :-)

It's easy for big guys to say it's all about technique when they can rely on muscle without evening knowing it. Hapkido is good, because it works on similar principles to aikido in terms of using the attacker's momentum against him... but I'm still unsure of the whole power differential.

Anyone else out there dealing with this same situation?

PatrickSize does matter unless your very skilled. I would recommend you start hitting the weights and find some enhancement shake from GNC. Increase your strength so you cant be givin the run around by average size guys. Most of the time, who ever is stronger will win the fight, unless your talking about skilled martial artists. So increase your strength, it wont hurt anything thats for sure.

[hapki68]

Thanks everyone... lots of good comments and stuff to think about. I don't see myself hitting the milkshakes to put on weight and bulk up. I worry more about dropping dead of heart disease than I do about getting my butt kicked in a bar. So... I've got no choice but to hope that the centuries of wisdom that has been put into the martial arts is accurate and that speed and technique can overcome power.

One thing that makes me believe this is that, odds are, I won't be going up against someone who knows martial arts or the kinds of moves I now know. I think I need to develop a better understanding of staying low (as one person said), keeping my balance and making the other person lose his.

Thanks again for all the insights.

[Flatlander]

For reference, you may also check out these threads, which I found using the 'advanced search' feature:

dealing with someone much bigger (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11759&highlight=balance)

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/misc/paperclip.gif Improving physical balance (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11570&highlight=balance)

Improving balance (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30510&highlight=balance)

[Paul B]

Good advice so far..I would add that proper footwork,timing,and hand placement from the beginning of the technique are very important aspects of Hapkido.

In 99.9% of our throwing or locking techniques,our first step is to what is commonly called the "third point",or the point one would get if one could draw two lines radiating outward from the rear foot's big toe and the front foot's heel on a 45deg. angle..forwards and to the rear.That is the point we Hapkidoin (and others)use and exploit to control balance.

While keeping our hands directly in front (elbows in) of our Dan Jon,we "guide" the person,sometimes painfully, into a state of imbalance in order to execute our technique..all the while making use of Yoo,Won,and Wha.

Given that your (and most people's) body is most likely larger than many people's arm's..the connection needs to be made that by serious hard training, proper attention to detail,and remembering that above all in Hapkido we use the body as a whole..you shouldn't have a problem throwing and controlling someone larger or physically stronger than yourself. So it's no problem,really..just more training.:)

[tshadowchaser]

On the up side, I've gotten really good at being thrown around and have mastered falls

at 5'6 and 140 lbs i am small and my judo instructor was 6'2 and 250 lbs i also learnd to dall rather well and fast. When i learned to throw him )well once in a while I would) it felt great and i know just practiceing with him all that time helped me when I did use the same moves on someone my own size

[Jenna]

I've got a question for everyone.

I'm 5 11 and 150 lbs. Although I work out, I'm thin and not as strong as most of the guys in my school who seem to be around 180-200 or more lbs. Although I know I'm supposed to believe that size and strength don't matter (everyone knows size matters!), I have a hard time really believing it. I can barely do some of the throws because I can't lift a 225lb guy across my shoulders and then throw him without being crushed under his weight. I end up like a doofus flat on the floor with him sitting on top of me. And some guys have wrists as thick as my leg, which makes it very hard to twist them into a wrist lock position.

On the up side, I've gotten really good at being thrown around and have mastered falls. :-)

It's easy for big guys to say it's all about technique when they can rely on muscle without evening knowing it. Hapkido is good, because it works on similar principles to aikido in terms of using the attacker's momentum against him... but I'm still unsure of the whole power differential.

Anyone else out there dealing with this same situation?

Patrick
Hey Patrick :) I can certainly appreciate this I am <110 girl and smaller than most that I train with but I am glad for the resistance of bigger guys because without it I would never really know the effectiveness of my technique. I am an aikidoka btw but for sure we have much shared history and technique and I will get shouty with you if you say Aikido is the poor mans Hapkido!! But I admire Hapkido because there is a great deal within that art. I would say on a practical level -- and I think you mentioned already -- that you might want to try to increase your sensitivity to your opponents balance. I think this is crucial to both of our great arts and especially as you -- and I -- do not want to bulk up anything. This is wholly unnecessary and personally I find it asthetically ugly to see someone FORCE a technique and I would have happily resisted this trait in an aggressive nage just to make the point that strength will not necessarily work even against a lightweight like me.

Sensitivity to balance can be developed very easily with a partner by doing any of your static push hands exercises. But also during a tech if you work it REALLY slowly and FEEL that exact point at which your opponent has no choice but to move. If you never get him to his balance point then you can be assured you have made an error which is simly learning by trial and error. But yeah, sensitivity to balance is the keystone to the arch of techniques. And while I cannot obviously speak for Hapkido I might suggest a similiarity to Aikido in that much of what I learned only really imprinted itself on me once I was able to FEEL it working if that makes some sense. But take heart in your larger opponents as they can be a great learning aid to you.

Hope this sounds even a little relevant. Oh and you might have nicer jackets but we have nicer trousers, ha! :D

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[Paul B]

..snip...and I will get shouty with you if you say Aikido is the poor mans Hapkido!!

That's funny..I've always heard that Hapkido is Aikido's ugly cousin.:D

[hapki68]

Thanks everyone... lots to ponder. In fact, that's what makes the MA so tough and fun. It's hard to remember all the stuff you have to do at one time to be effective: move face out of the way of punch by sliding a few degrees to the right, raise right arm and grab attacker's wrist, step forward, knife hand down with other arm, get him/her off balance, don't drool, etc...

I know (or hope) it will come in time but at this point, I'm clumsy and out of control.

Paul, thanks for the "third point" bit. I need to really process that for a while.

Jenna, I'm (sort of) with Paul. (The ugly cousin point is a hoot!) I had a little aikido in college and loved the intellectualism and grace. I tend to think of hapkido as the more basic (poor man's?) aikido. There's a ton of stuff written about aikido, for good reason, but almost zilch about hapkido, which is frustrating. This is probably inaccurate and may not make sense, but I tend to think of aikido as something the Athenians would've practiced whereas the Spartans would've gone for hapkido. (Keep in mind, Athens eventually defeated Sparta, I think, so maybe I should reconsider the whole analogy. Oy.)

But don't get me wrong... I love my art. And I can throw a pretty good hissy fit when it gets dissed :-)

Patrick

PS... Off to "open mat" practice. My instructor/Master is at a tournament today... hopefully defeating Paul's Master :-)

[hapki68]

Oh... and you're totally right about aikido's fabulous trousers! I wish we had those.

One word of warning to all: when I first started training about a year ago, I was lazy and didn't tie the string on my pants. Of course, I judo threw a guy and -- yep -- he grabbed my pants on the way down and took them with him. Thank god I wasn't wearing the leopard print thong that day :-)

Hapki

[Jenna]

Jenna, I'm (sort of) with Paul. (The ugly cousin point is a hoot!) I had a little aikido in college and loved the intellectualism and grace. I tend to think of hapkido as the more basic (poor man's?) aikido. There's a ton of stuff written about aikido, for good reason, but almost zilch about hapkido, which is frustrating. This is probably inaccurate and may not make sense, but I tend to think of aikido as something the Athenians would've practiced whereas the Spartans would've gone for hapkido. (Keep in mind, Athens eventually defeated Sparta, I think, so maybe I should reconsider the whole analogy. Oy.)

Hey Patrick :) well now I would have to say I always thought the practitioners of Hapki techniques had more flavas than Aikido in their range.... sorry I am CRAVING B&J ice cream and worse because I am not supposed to eat it but yes I have noticed also that compared to the plethora of Aikido books Hapkido is somewhat the poorer relation but take heart that most of the Aikido material is sorely lacking genuine substance and I think this is because of the inherent spirituality in the art folk think they can pass any drivel off as having true Aiki merit...

Oh and I think your ancient Greek analogy is superb even if it makes Aikido seem more thoughtful than Hapkido and I will shout at you for doing that with your art!!!! But I would draw a different conclusion if Aikido was the art if Athens and Hapkido the art of Sparta then we would more probably have seen harmony and acceptance in Greece how bout that?

Oh I love your "intellectualism and grace" point which is probably how it seems from books or looks on the B&W films of Ueshiba but I might take your description of Aikido and set in a different light for you by describing it as intellectualism grace and swearing like a navvy.... :)

Good luck with your training..... oh and your leopard print thong :D

Yr most obdt hmble drvt,
Jenna

[Brandon Fisher]

I am 5'8 and between 150 and 160. I have thrown and applied joint locks to those that are 250lbs and heavier. It has a lot to do with technique and timing. Grant it throws you need some strength in your legs and I have leg pressed as much as 600lbs so thats a benefit I have to my advantage.