Any recommendations for KM instruction in NYC?

[christop]

Hello, im in the Queens area of NY and wanted to know if anyone could recommend any classes in the area. I did a couple of searches and found a few in Manhattan,but thought maybe someone here might know of a Queens location. Thank you for any assistance.

[MJS]

Hello, im in the Queens area of NY and wanted to know if anyone could recommend any classes in the area. I did a couple of searches and found a few in Manhattan,but thought maybe someone here might know of a Queens location. Thank you for any assistance.

http://www.kravmaga.com/newyork.asp

www.kravmagainc.com (http://www.kravmagainc.com)

This should be a good start for you.

Mike

[christop]

Thank you for the links MJS.

[Grubic]

Just to let you know the www.kravmagainc.com (http://www.kravmagainc.com) website might be up or down when you go to it. They are changing servers for their site. Either call them at 212-781-7918 or you can PM me if you have any questions. I was a student there about a year ago and have just recently come back. Let me know if I can help.

[cpgrichard]

These two schools are in Westchester County about 15 minutes and 35 minutes from Northern NYC (Bronx area) respectively:

Steve Sohn's JuJitsu Concepts and Krav Maga Training Center Scarsdale, NY (http://www.safeandfit.com)
(located in Scarsdale via Bronx River PKWY - 15 min)

79 Montgomery Ave
Scarsdale, NY 10583
(914) 723-7818

Davide's Yorktown Total Fitness Center and Krav Maga Yorktown Heights, NY (http://www.yorktownfitnesscenter.com)

(Located In Yorktown Heights via Bronx River to SprainBrook/Taconic Pkwy 35 min)

1761 Front Street
Yorktown Heights, NY 10598
(914) 302-7392


Friendly instructors with great attitudes, excellent prices, value and training.


Rich

[Loki]

Definitely Krav Maga Inc. Probably the only professional Krav Maga organization in America. See Grubic's post above for details.

[akatrk]

Any opinions on Sparnyc? Elizabeth Greenman and David Kahn are the instructors there.

[CKM]

I know there are a few instructors in NY that teach Commando Krav-Maga (CKM). You can check them out at http://www.commandokravmaga.com/ There is a difference between CKM and the regular Krav-Maga.

Progress & Evolve,
Rick
CKM level II Instructor
www.combatsurvival.net

[rutherford]

There is also an eight week Kapap course starting soon.

http://www.nykapap.com/

[EddieC]

In response to LOKI's post about Krav Maga Inc. in NYC as "the only professional" KM group-- not at all true. In addition to the places in Westchester (Steve Sohn's place in Scarsdale is fantastic), there is also KMLI in Long Island--as professional a KM school as you will ever find. Krav Inc. in NYC operates out of a college space. They do not have a school of their own. Some of their classes are on a racket-ball court which is ridiculous for sound and air-flow. This isn't to say that they don't have some excellent instructors because they do. I received my training in Israel under Eyal Yanilov's teachers, who I consider to be the best in the world.

[zoei777]

Matan Gavish teaches Krav Maga in Manhattan. A bit pricy but definitely worth it.
www.defitness.com (http://www.defitness.com)
917-573-8869

[Krood1]

Where'd you end up?

Any feedback?

[Guvnor]

This thread has been going on for some time but this remains a burning question in NYC. I came across this thread while looking for a place myself. I have done a lot of research so here are a few things you might all find helpful.

- European or Israeli quality training in NYC is not easy to find but there are some promising new schools in NYC. IKMF is in my view the most reputable organization in the world with the best quality trainers and up to date methods and techniques. The IKMF (non-profit) have just launched here. I found them on FaceBook (there was no website at the time of writing this)- I think they are called the Krav Maga Institute NYC (facebook.com/kravmaganyc). I train here now. They are very good, no complaints at all.

- KMG don't have instructors in NYC, but they are also quite good. They are a very small in the US and too expensive (it's all about money for them right now as they try to grow).

- There is no KMWW in NYC and they aren't in the same league as the IKMF or KMG anyway.

- Krav Maga Federation was very disappointing and are really out of date now. They have been in NYC the longest but rely on very old techniques that don't change and that are no longer used). The other down side is that they have very old school teaching methods (press ups, very repetitive drills, shouting, egos, belts!). Don't get me wrong, Rhon Mizrahi is a great instructor but his techniques are just too old fashioned and often clumsy (try a horizontal hammer fist with your elbow pointing towards you - it makes no sense). They also won't teach students how to strike until you are at least a yellow belt- why?!

- IKMA are also non existent in NYC at the time of writing this. I went to Hamilton to try then out. This Krav Maga is more MMA. It is not what the Israelis teach and just wasn't for me.

Hope this is helpful.

[Guvnor]

Sorry, I was wrong there is a website - this is the link: www.KravMagaInstituteNYC.com

[Spork3245]

- IKMA are also non existent in NYC at the time of writing this. I went to Hamilton to try then out. This Krav Maga is more MMA. It is not what the Israelis teach and just wasn't for me.



This is 100% wrong. Our training is directly from Israel. The IKMA is Imi Lichtenfelds original organization, and is the only organization recognized by the Israeli Government.
When did you come to our HQ in Hamilton?

[Guvnor]

I visited your center twice during 2009/2010 when I lived in NJ. I did not mean to suggest your techniques were not from Israel but they seemed quite different to what I experienced from Israeli born instructors during classes I have taken and KMG/IKMF seminars I have attended (such as Eyal Yanilov and Tamir Gilad in Florida among others). For the avoidance of doubt, Israeli Krav Maga in Hamilton was very good, I liked it but it just wasn't for me - we all have preferences based on our age, circumstances and sex. I don't know anything about your organization's history but a quick visit to Wikipedia and google shows that there are a number of Israeli Krav Maga organizations that claim to be the original or the source. I am not interested in the politics in the industry, I just want to share my views and experience in martial arts with others. Most, if not all, the organizations I mentioned were good - yours included. Hope this clears things up for you.

[Spork3245]

I visited your center twice during 2009/2010 when I lived in NJ. I did not mean to suggest your techniques were not from Israel but they seemed quite different to what I experienced from Israeli born instructors during classes I have taken and KMG/IKMF seminars I have attended (such as Eyal Yanilov and Tamir Gilad in Florida among others). For the avoidance of doubt, Israeli Krav Maga in Hamilton was very good, I liked it but it just wasn't for me - we all have preferences based on our age, circumstances and sex. I don't know anything about your organization's history but a quick visit to Wikipedia and google shows that there are a number of Israeli Krav Maga organizations that claim to be the original or the source. I am not interested in the politics in the industry, I just want to share my views and experience in martial arts with others. Most, if not all, the organizations I mentioned were good - yours included. Hope this clears things up for you.


The IKMA was founded on October 22, 1978 by Imi Lichtenfeld, Haim Zut, Haim Gidon, Eli Avikzar, Miki Azsuline, Shayke Barak and one other who's name currently escapes me (Not Eyal Yanilov, he was neither a founder, nor one of Imi's first students. He would have been a kid at the time). I do not care what wikipedia says, it is a known fact that anyone can edit wikipedia and things from it should not be presented as fact. No other Krav Maga organizations were created until the mid-1990's, the first being Eli Avikzar's "Krav Magen" organization, the next being Haim Zut's. Darren Levine (Krav Maga World Wide) was certifed in the 1981 instructor course (Along with Alan Feldman, Rick Blitstein, and Mark Rosenberg), and operated his school as an IKMA school for a very long time. Eyal Yanilov does things "differently" from us, he also does things differently than Haim Zut's organization, whether this is good or bad is not for me to decide - Tamir Gilad was trained by Eyal, that is why both were similar "styles".

Here is a document, signed by Imi Lichtenfeld, if you need "proof"; 15390

It is fine if you did not like our "style", but our style is directly from Israel and is from Imi Lichtenfeld's top living student. Do not present us as MMA

Does this look like MMA to you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho_pYNSjI7Q http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho_pYNSjI7Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCDhfBaIhfw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCDhfBaIhfw

[Guvnor]

Thank you for replying to this thread. The question in this thread is: can you recommend someone in NYC for Krav Maga. I gave my recommendation - IKMF NYC - based on my experience and I stand by my comments. Politics are an unwelcome distraction to this question. This is not about politics just a common sense recommendation.

With respect, you're right IKMA is old Krav Maga from Israel and the IKMF have changed things. I think we agree that IKMA is different to IKMF Krav Maga. The easiest way of describing the difference for me was that IKMA bears a closer resemblance to MMA techniques than the Krav Maga taught to me by IDF members in Israel and by the IKMF. I have not met an Israeli that has served in the IDF that has taught me what is taught by the IKMA.

That is not to say IKMA techniques are not taught in Israel or that they don’t come from Israel but IKMA methods are definitely far less common these days. That is not to say it is better or worse but IKMA techniques are not widely taught anymore. You can all decide why this is the case between you.

I am a retired physician from Columbia University Medical Centre with over 27 years of martial arts experience - I am not a Krav Maga expert or instructor – but I have studied JKD, Jujitsu, BJJ and now Krav Maga for some time now. My son and I practice Krav Maga when time permits because it is by far the most practical form of self-defense out there. I have no interest in a discussion on politics or who came first. I was asked for a recommendation so I gave one. IKMF was well taught, professional, easy to learn, practical, effective and enjoyable. IKMA was also but if I had to recommend one, I would go with the IKMF, no question.

I have tried the various options out there and have given my honest view of what's available. It is not helpful or truthful to correlate the age of an organization with it's quality. Nor is it helpful to suggest Eyal Yanilov and Avi Moyal are not as qualified as the IKMA because they are part of a newer Israeli organization. IKMA was Imi's first organization in Israel (which I believe was splintering anyway), IKMF was, I believe, started in the 90s to spread Krav Maga abroad with Imi’s approval (he was old by then). That's what my research tells me but I am not an expert. But honestly, who cares?

The IKMF has been more successful than the IKMA internationally. Eyal and Avi are the most in demand trainers in the world. Their success is down to the quality of their training methods and their product, period. David Kahn and Rhon Mizrahi have also been incredibly successful and this is because they are also excellent world class trainers. Which you prefer is up to you. My decision to go with the IKMF and not the IKMA or Rhon Mizrahi was because the IKMF had more in common with what I was taught before by Israelis. I particularly liked the supportive learning environment, the logical and practical explanations offered by my instructors, it was enjoyable, effective and easy to remember and learn.

IKMA, Rhon Mizrahi and IKMF are like the Gracies – different branches on the same tree. There is no sense or merit in talking down one over the other. I am not sure it needs to be more complicated than this. Politics will ruin Krav Maga if you're not careful. That is not what Imi would have wanted.

Something fun I have found on the internet that shows the appeal of Krav Maga: http://youtu.be/WIWI5kmulRA

[Guvnor]

The IKMA was founded on October 22, 1978 by Imi Lichtenfeld, Haim Zut, Haim Gidon, Eli Avikzar, Miki Azsuline, Shayke Barak and one other who's name currently escapes me (Not Eyal Yanilov, he was neither a founder, nor one of Imi's first students. He would have been a kid at the time). I do not care what wikipedia says, it is a known fact that anyone can edit wikipedia and things from it should not be presented as fact. No other Krav Maga organizations were created until the mid-1990's, the first being Eli Avikzar's "Krav Magen" organization, the next being Haim Zut's. Darren Levine (Krav Maga World Wide) was certifed in the 1981 instructor course (Along with Alan Feldman, Rick Blitstein, and Mark Rosenberg), and operated his school as an IKMA school for a very long time. Eyal Yanilov does things "differently" from us, he also does things differently than Haim Zut's organization, whether this is good or bad is not for me to decide - Tamir Gilad was trained by Eyal, that is why both were similar "styles".

Here is a document, signed by Imi Lichtenfeld, if you need "proof"; 15390

It is fine if you did not like our "style", but our style is directly from Israel and is from Imi Lichtenfeld's top living student. Do not present us as MMA

Does this look like MMA to you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho_pYNSjI7Q http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho_pYNSjI7Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCDhfBaIhfw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCDhfBaIhfw




Thank you for replying to this thread. The question in this thread is: can you recommend someone in NYC for Krav Maga. I gave my recommendation - IKMF NYC - based on my experience and I stand by my comments. Politics are an unwelcome distraction to this question. This is not about politics just a common sense recommendation.

With respect, you're right IKMA is old Krav Maga from Israel and the IKMF have changed things. I think we agree that IKMA is different to IKMF Krav Maga. The easiest way of describing the difference for me was that IKMA bears a closer resemblance to MMA techniques than the Krav Maga taught to me by IDF members in Israel and by the IKMF. I have not met an Israeli that has served in the IDF that has taught me what is taught by the IKMA.

That is not to say IKMA techniques are not taught in Israel or that they don’t come from Israel but IKMA methods are definitely far less common these days. That is not to say it is better or worse but IKMA techniques are not widely taught anymore. You can all decide why this is the case between you.

I am a retired physician from Columbia University Medical Centre with over 27 years of martial arts experience - I am not a Krav Maga expert or instructor – but I have studied JKD, Jujitsu, BJJ and now Krav Maga for some time now. My son and I practice Krav Maga when time permits because it is by far the most practical form of self-defense out there. I have no interest in a discussion on politics or who came first. I was asked for a recommendation so I gave one. IKMF was well taught, professional, easy to learn, practical, effective and enjoyable. IKMA was also but if I had to recommend one, I would go with the IKMF, no question.

I have tried the various options out there and have given my honest view of what's available. It is not helpful or truthful to correlate the age of an organization with it's quality. Nor is it helpful to suggest Eyal Yanilov and Avi Moyal are not as qualified as the IKMA because they are part of a newer Israeli organization. IKMA was Imi's first organization in Israel (which I believe was splintering anyway), IKMF was, I believe, started in the 90s to spread Krav Maga abroad with Imi’s approval (he was old by then). That's what my research tells me but I am not an expert. But honestly, who cares?

The IKMF has been more successful than the IKMA internationally. Eyal and Avi are the most in demand trainers in the world. Their success is down to the quality of their training methods and their product, period. David Kahn and Rhon Mizrahi have also been incredibly successful and this is because they are also excellent world class trainers. Which you prefer is up to you. My decision to go with the IKMF and not the IKMA or Rhon Mizrahi was because the IKMF had more in common with what I was taught before by Israelis. I particularly liked the supportive learning environment, the logical and practical explanations offered by my instructors, it was enjoyable, effective and easy to remember and learn.

IKMA, Rhon Mizrahi and IKMF are like the Gracies – different branches on the same tree. There is no sense or merit in talking down one over the other. I am not sure it needs to be more complicated than this. Politics will ruin Krav Maga if you're not careful. That is not what Imi would have wanted.

Something fun I have found on the internet that shows the appeal of Krav Maga: http://youtu.be/WIWI5kmulRA

[Spork3245]

Thank you for replying to this thread. The question in this thread is: can you recommend someone in NYC for Krav Maga. I gave my recommendation - IKMF NYC - based on my experience and I stand by my comments. Politics are an unwelcome distraction to this question. This is not about politics just a common sense recommendation.

Politics are not the premise of my reply. It's your misleading representation of what we do to "MMA". We are not MMA. Do they gouge eyes in MMA? Do they kick the groin in MMA? If anyone is turning this into politics, it is you.


With respect, you're right IKMA is old Krav Maga from Israel and the IKMF have changed things. I think we agree that IKMA is different to IKMF Krav Maga. The easiest way of describing the difference for me was that IKMA bears a closer resemblance to MMA techniques than the Krav Maga taught to me by IDF members in Israel and by the IKMF. I have not met an Israeli that has served in the IDF that has taught me what is taught by the IKMA.

What has the IKMF changed from Imi? The answer is nothing, but please go on and enlighten me to their system-changes. In Israel, everyone serves in the IDF, it is mandatory conscription. However, unless it is a specialized field they are going into, they only receive ~2 weeks of training in Krav Maga, and it is also extremely basic. I, however, have been trained by Sgt. Mjr. Nir Maman, and am certified under his "CT 707 Krav Maga" system. Nir was the chief Krav Maga/Counter-Terror/Fire-Arms instructor for the Sayeret Golani forces up until 2009 when he "retired" from active-duty to reserves, and also received "Solider of the Year 2009" for the IDF ground forces; I can speak from experience and say that true IDF Krav Maga is nothing like IKMF, IKMA, KMF, KMWW, KMA, etc, so you are not being taught what the IDF is being taught, regardless of what your instructors claim.
Furthermore, IKMA is not "old" Krav Maga, Haim Gidon has worked relentlessly to update our techniques and tactics for the ever-changing world. For instance, we are the only system with a true street-based ground-system, among many other innovations that Grand Master Haim has made to our system. Haim Gidon was chosen to be the next Grand Master by Imi for a reason; Not Eyal, not Zut, but Haim Gidon.
Again, it is fine if you like your system, but do not talk down about my organization or question it's ability on the street. MMA is for competition, we do not fight in rings.


That is not to say IKMA techniques are not taught in Israel or that they don’t come from Israel but IKMA methods are definitely far less common these days. That is not to say it is better or worse but IKMA techniques are not widely taught anymore. You can all decide why this is the case between you.

You have little understanding of what you are talking about. IKMF-curriculum is taught at IKMF schools, KMF-curriculum is taught at KMF schools, KMWW-curriculum is taught at KMWW schools, IKMA-curriculum is taught at IKMA schools. No where else. Again, you are not leaning what the IDF learns, their "system" as changed the most out of anyones, and is not ment for civiliians in any sense.


I am a retired physician from Columbia University Medical Centre with over 27 years of martial arts experience - I am not a Krav Maga expert or instructor – but I have studied JKD, Jujitsu, BJJ and now Krav Maga for some time now. My son and I practice Krav Maga when time permits because it is by far the most practical form of self-defense out there. I have no interest in a discussion on politics or who came first. I was asked for a recommendation so I gave one. IKMF was well taught, professional, easy to learn, practical, effective and enjoyable. IKMA was also but if I had to recommend one, I would go with the IKMF, no question.

That is fine, again, you are entitled to your opinion and I'll respect that. However, I am not the one turning this into politics. You said that the IKMA resembled MMA, I corrected you and also mentioned that the IKMA was the original organization, you questioned this fact saying that " I don't know anything about your organization's history but a quick visit to Wikipedia and google shows that there are a number of Israeli Krav Maga organizations that claim to be the original or the source.", I, again, corrected you, as I cannot abide by historical inaccuracies.


I have tried the various options out there and have given my honest view of what's available. It is not helpful or truthful to correlate the age of an organization with it's quality. Nor is it helpful to suggest Eyal Yanilov and Avi Moyal are not as qualified as the IKMA because they are part of a newer Israeli organization.

I never suggested, said, implied, etc, any of this. Do not puts words in my mouth. The IKMF is a fine organization, and Avi Moyal is a fine instructor.


The IKMF has been more successful than the IKMA internationally. Eyal and Avi are the most in demand trainers in the world. Their success is down to the quality of their training methods and their product, period. David Kahn and Rhon Mizrahi have also been incredibly successful and this is because they are also excellent world class trainers. Which you prefer is up to you. My decision to go with the IKMF and not the IKMA or Rhon Mizrahi was because the IKMF had more in common with what I was taught before by Israelis. I particularly liked the supportive learning environment, the logical and practical explanations offered by my instructors, it was enjoyable, effective and easy to remember and learn.

Again, this is your preference and that is fine. However, it behooves me to mention that the size of a particular company, or being better at business, does not mean you are better quality. For instance, I'd take a coffee from the mom & pop cafe down the road from me over starbucks, however, that does not mean that starbucks isn't good.


IKMA, Rhon Mizrahi and IKMF are like the Gracies – different branches on the same tree. There is no sense or merit in talking down one over the other. I am not sure it needs to be more complicated than this. Politics will ruin Krav Maga if you're not careful. That is not what Imi would have wanted.

I have not talked down a single organization, I've only stated facts. I'm sorry if you've taken any of my comments with a derogatory-nature. You, however, were the one to talk the IKMA "down" by comparing us to "MMA", which goes against everything we stand for, and are.

[Guvnor]

I understand why you are upset by my comment and I am sorry if it caused offense but that was my impression from the classes I attended. It has nothing to do with eye gauging. I quote from your comment above 'we are the only system with a true street-based ground-system'. Ground based systems are very MMA in appearance. A former IDF special forces officer I met at a Krav Maga organization based in Brooklyn said to me that in all the years he has taught Krav Maga - ground work was not encouraged or taught in his unit in the IDF. I suppose it depends on what unit you serve in.

I was not turning this political. I have no interest in any of these organizations but the accusatory and defensive tone of your comments to my recommendation forced me to defend my position.

Your comments about IKMA being the most adaptive organization is COMPLETELY untrue and without basis. All these Krav Maga organizations are constantly updating things - the IKMA is not special here at all. Between the various seminars I have been to techniques have changes quite a few times already. I am fully aware military service is compulsory in Israel. I spent 3 years as a young man completing my military service there. Although, you are correct that Krav Maga training is minimal for certain units, other units spend a lot longer than 2 weeks. I also know of Nir Maman - a very impressive individual - however - I strongly disagree about your assertion that IKMF, KMG and KMWW are nothing like Israeli military Krav Maga, that is totally and completely false and misleading. By making this suggestion you are clearly disparaging these organizations and I would urge you to reconsider that comment because it is plainly not true. Techniques do vary from unit to unit and between instructors. My instructors have never said anything about this to me but it is obvious from my research and the friends I have in Israel that IKMF Krav Maga is practised in the military. Imi did not have a chosen one.


Thank you for your comment that I have no understanding of what I am saying. You are mistaken - the IKMF have adapted the military techniques for civilians but they still teach the military techniques.


I fully admit I am not an expert in this field however on reading about this subject after your messages, I now believe you to be mistaken and misguided by your affiliation.

You clearly implied this in your comments by suggesting the IKMA was the only worthy organization of recognition and that your techniques were superior. Again, completely untrue.

The success of a product clearly has some bearing on its quality. Your analogy between Krav Maga and coffee is misleading. Coffee is a low cost product that requires a low one off investment, Krav Maga is expensive investment that takes years to master. A more accurate analogy would be to compare it to a school or educational College that has a high number of applicants and one that has fewer. IKMA has a much smaller following than IKMF.

I am sorry if my comparison to MMA offended you. It was an observation and was not intended to be derogatory.

[Guvnor]

Politics are not the premise of my reply. It's your misleading representation of what we do to "MMA". We are not MMA. Do they gouge eyes in MMA? Do they kick the groin in MMA? If anyone is turning this into politics, it is you.

I understand why you are upset by my comment and I am sorry if it caused offense but that was my impression from the classes I attended. It has nothing to do with eye gauging. I quote from your comment above 'we are the only system with a true street-based ground-system'. Ground based systems are very MMA in appearance. A former IDF special forces officer I met at a Krav Maga organization based in Brooklyn said to me that in all the years he has taught Krav Maga - ground work was not encouraged or taught in his unit in the IDF. I suppose it depends on what unit you serve in.

I was not turning this political. I have no interest in any of these organizations but the accusatory and defensive tone of your comments to my recommendation forced me to defend my position.


What has the IKMF changed from Imi? The answer is nothing, but please go on and enlighten me to their system-changes. In Israel, everyone serves in the IDF, it is mandatory conscription. However, unless it is a specialized field they are going into, they only receive ~2 weeks of training in Krav Maga, and it is also extremely basic. I, however, have been trained by Sgt. Mjr. Nir Maman, and am certified under his "CT 707 Krav Maga" system. Nir was the chief Krav Maga/Counter-Terror/Fire-Arms instructor for the Sayeret Golani forces up until 2009 when he "retired" from active-duty to reserves, and also received "Solider of the Year 2009" for the IDF ground forces; I can speak from experience and say that true IDF Krav Maga is nothing like IKMF, IKMA, KMF, KMWW, KMA, etc, so you are not being taught what the IDF is being taught, regardless of what your instructors claim.
Furthermore, IKMA is not "old" Krav Maga, Haim Gidon has worked relentlessly to update our techniques and tactics for the ever-changing world. For instance, we are the only system with a true street-based ground-system, among many other innovations that Grand Master Haim has made to our system. Haim Gidon was chosen to be the next Grand Master by Imi for a reason; Not Eyal, not Zut, but Haim Gidon.
Again, it is fine if you like your system, but do not talk down about my organization or question it's ability on the street. MMA is for competition, we do not fight in rings.

Completely untrue. All these Krav Maga organizations are constantly updating things - the IKMA is not special here at all. Between the various seminars I have been to techniques have changes quite a few times already. I am fully aware military service is compulsory in Israel. I spent 3 years as a young man completing my military service there. Although, you are correct that Krav Maga training is minimal for certain units, other units spend a lot longer than 2 weeks. I also know of Nir Maman - a very impressive individual - however - I strongly disagree about your assertion that IKMF, KMG and KMWW are nothing like Israeli military Krav Maga, that is totally and completely false and misleading. By making this suggestion you are clearly disparaging these organizations and I would urge you to reconsider that comment because it is plainly not true. Techniques do vary from unit to unit and between instructors. My instructors have never said anything about this to me but it is obvious from my research and the friends I have in Israel that IKMF Krav Maga is practised in the military. Imi did not have a chosen one.

You have little understanding of what you are talking about. IKMF-curriculum is taught at IKMF schools, KMF-curriculum is taught at KMF schools, KMWW-curriculum is taught at KMWW schools, IKMA-curriculum is taught at IKMA schools. No where else. Again, you are not leaning what the IDF learns, their "system" as changed the most out of anyones, and is not ment for civiliians in any sense.

Thank you for your comment - you are mistaken. IKMF have adapted the military techniques for civilians but they still teach the military techniques.

That is fine, again, you are entitled to your opinion and I'll respect that. However, I am not the one turning this into politics. You said that the IKMA resembled MMA, I corrected you and also mentioned that the IKMA was the original organization, you questioned this fact saying that " I don't know anything about your organization's history but a quick visit to Wikipedia and google shows that there are a number of Israeli Krav Maga organizations that claim to be the original or the source.", I, again, corrected you, as I cannot abide by historical inaccuracies.

I fully admit I am not an expert in this field however on reading about it after your messages, I now believe you to be mistaken.


I never suggested, said, implied, etc, any of this. Do not puts words in my mouth. The IKMF is a fine organization, and Avi Moyal is a fine instructor.

You clearly implied this in your comments by suggesting the IKMA was the only worthy organization of recognition and that your techniques were superior. Again, completely untrue.

Again, this is your preference and that is fine. However, it behooves me to mention that the size of a particular company, or being better at business, does not mean you are better quality. For instance, I'd take a coffee from the mom & pop cafe down the road from me over starbucks, however, that does not mean that starbucks isn't good.

The success of a product clearly has some bearing on its quality. Coffee is a low cost product that requires a low level one off investment, Krav Maga is expensive investment that takes years to master. A more accurate analogy would be to compare it to a College that has a high number of applicants and one that has fewer. IKMA has a smaller following than IKMF.


I have not talked down a single organization, I've only stated facts. I'm sorry if you've taken any of my comments with a derogatory-nature. You, however, were the one to talk the IKMA "down" by comparing us to "MMA", which goes against everything we stand for, and are.


I am sorry if my comparison to MMA offended you. It was an observation and was not intended to be derogatory.

[Spork3245]

Ground based systems are very MMA in appearance. A former IDF special forces officer I met at a Krav Maga organization based in Brooklyn said to me that in all the years he has taught Krav Maga - ground work was not encouraged or taught in his unit in the IDF. I suppose it depends on what unit you serve in.

We added ground work for reasons. We do not recommend going to the ground if it can be avoided. Our ground-work is ment for if you are taken down to the ground, not bringing someone to the ground. If you are up against an experienced MMA/BJJ guy, and they take you down, they will not let you back up to your feet, no matter how hard you try.


I was not turning this political. I have no interest in any of these organizations but the accusatory and defensive tone of your comments to my recommendation forced me to defend my position.

The "defensive tone" was for YOU insinuating that the IKMA is not an Israeli-based organization, that we teach "outdated material", and that we are "closer to MMA". Re-read the thread if you must, I never commented on you recommending one organization over another. Infact, I've repeatedly stated that it's fine if one "style" fits you over another. You are the one who continues this with historical inaccuracies and false statements.


Your comments about IKMA being the most adaptive organization is COMPLETELY untrue and without basis. All these Krav Maga organizations are constantly updating things - the IKMA is not special here at all. Between the various seminars I have been to techniques have changes quite a few times already. I am fully aware military service is compulsory in Israel. I spent 3 years as a young man completing my military service there. Although, you are correct that Krav Maga training is minimal for certain units, other units spend a lot longer than 2 weeks. I also know of Nir Maman - a very impressive individual - however - I strongly disagree about your assertion that IKMF, KMG and KMWW are nothing like Israeli military Krav Maga, that is totally and completely false and misleading. By making this suggestion you are clearly disparaging these organizations and I would urge you to reconsider that comment because it is plainly not true. Techniques do vary from unit to unit and between instructors. My instructors have never said anything about this to me but it is obvious from my research and the friends I have in Israel that IKMF Krav Maga is practised in the military. Imi did not have a chosen one.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about another organization being bad or not as good, nor did I ever say that "the IKMA is the most adaptive". And no, not all Krav organizations are "constantly updating things", this is false, but if you choose to believe it I'm not going to attempt to change your mind. My "assertion" is correct, I don't know when you/your firends served, but things have obviously changed since then. Also, your friends are wrong, the IKMF has nothing to do with the IDF, I repeat, nothing, show me documented proof otherwise (please note, I'm not saying that any other krav organization has anything to do with the IDF - Before you attempt to mis-quote me again, I'd like to make that clear).
Also, you seem to like to bring Imi up. I train, regularly, with 4 different individuals who personally knew Imi, who ate dinner at Imi's house, who were certified to teach by Imi, and who's Black-Belts were handed to them by Imi. Do not act as if you knew Imi, what he "chose", or what he wanted.



Thank you for your comment that I have no understanding of what I am saying. You are mistaken - the IKMF have adapted the military techniques for civilians but they still teach the military techniques.


I fully admit I am not an expert in this field however on reading about this subject after your messages, I now believe you to be mistaken and misguided by your affiliation.

Krav Maga, as a whole, was invented for usuage in War, and for militaristic means, ALL Krav Maga is military-based and has been adapted for civillians, however the Krav Maga that is currently being taught in the IDF is virtually nothing like what is being taught in the civillian-organization schools. 10-20 years ago, however, it was much more similar than not. So I stand by my statement, you are not informed on this issue as of 2011 (back in 1995 you would've been correct, however).


You clearly implied this in your comments by suggesting the IKMA was the only worthy organization of recognition and that your techniques were superior. Again, completely untrue.

Ummm... Yea. When did this happen? I've never made any derogatory marks about other instructors, schools, organizations, etc. I've only been defending mine which you've been damning by your un-informed posts.


The success of a product clearly has some bearing on its quality. Your analogy between Krav Maga and coffee is misleading. Coffee is a low cost product that requires a low one off investment, Krav Maga is expensive investment that takes years to master. A more accurate analogy would be to compare it to a school or educational College that has a high number of applicants and one that has fewer. IKMA has a much smaller following than IKMF.

Ok... Acessability has something to do with success too, marketing does as well, among many other things. These are not non-profit colleges, they are businesses. If quality won out all the time then the vast majority of fast-food and restaurant chains would not exist. If my loose-analogy failed, yours just now has failed just as bad.


I am sorry if my comparison to MMA offended you. It was an observation and was not intended to be derogatory.

MMA is perhaps one of the worst things you can call a Krav Maga school.

I must ask one thing though, is that picture in your profile of you?

[Spork3245]

double post :(

[jks9199]

Wow, folks...

Domestics are the calls cops hate to handle 'cause they're always a mess. Kind of like arguments about which version of a style is "the true" style. Tone it down a shade; after all, you all are closer to what each other are doing than say, a TKD school.

[Guvnor]

Thank you jks9199. I agree this has gotten out of hand.

David, this discussion no longer serves the interests of this forum or your agenda. I respectfully disagree with you, the factual basis of your assertions and the conclusions you have drawn. You didn't know Imi either David and as we all know analogies are not always helpful. At least we agree that the IKMF and IKMA are the two of the most reputable organizations serving the New York area. I think we should both just let this one go.

[Spork3245]

Thank you jks9199. I agree this has gotten out of hand.

David, this discussion no longer serves the interests of this forum or your agenda. I respectfully disagree with you, the factual basis of your assertions and the conclusions you have drawn. You didn't know Imi either David and as we all know analogies are not always helpful. At least we agree that the IKMF and IKMA are the two of the most reputable organizations serving the New York area. I think we should both just let this one go.

I am not David, but thanks for comparing to him. lol!
I have, however, been training regularly under him, Alan Feldman, Grand Master Haim Gidon, Rick Blitstein, Yigal Arbiv, and Nir Maman for 5 years now. ;)


-Chris E.

[MJS]

Well, I'm going to comment on a few things.

1) I'm always amazed at how threads, especially ones that're this old, always tend to get dug up.

2) I find it interesting that people come onto a thread, get into a heated discussion, take shots, make claims, etc, and then when a mod. comes on to 'cool' the flames, people take that as an out, and suddenly say that the thread has gotten out of hand. Funny, if it was so out of hand before, why were no posts reported to the mods? I'm on here just about daily, and I've seen no reported posts. Lets not hide behind the mods in an attempt to take some sort of heat off.

3) Krav Maga is like Ninjutsu....when the craze hit, there were legit teachers, and ******** artists, who tried to take advantage of the sudden interest. That being said, there are a ton of Krav Maga schools out there, some of which are definately better than others.

4) I know of people who train with Rhon and the KMF in NY and have spoken very highly of him. I've been friends with Chris (Spork) online, for a while now, and in the very near future, I do plan on visiting the new IKMA school in NYC.

From what I've seen, the IKMA is definately not MMA, neither is the KMF. If some other school is making their Krav MMAish, then thats on them, but that doesnt mean that ALL Krav is MMA. Given the MMA craze as of late, I do think that every art, could benefit from some ground training. Of course, how that training is conducted, is important. The ground work that I've seen in the IKMA isnt MMA0like at all, for the simple fact that it appears to me, and Chris, correct me if I'm wrong, that the idea isn't to prolong the staying on the ground, but instead, to effectively escape and get back to your feet.

I do find it interesting, Guvnor, that if you did in fact visit the Hamilton school, that Chris doesnt remember you. When did you go? I may've missed that answer. If Chris wasn't there, I'm sure some sort of papertrail would indicate if in fact you were there. I know I've dropped in on various schools, and have always signed a waiver. I'd find it very odd for a school to allow someone to train, even if for a day, and not sign some sort of paperwork.

I've also noticed that people are talking about differences. We've heard what the KMF is doing, supposedly outdated stuff. Chris has talked about what the IKMA has done. I've yet to see what any other schools that you've trained at Guvnor, have done. Since you have said that the IKMA isn't the only Krav Maga org. to make changes, please share what your school has done.

[MJS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXGhvoekY44

Hmm....no replies....why am I not surprised?

[Guvnor]

Well, I'm going to comment on a few things.

1) I'm always amazed at how threads, especially ones that're this old, always tend to get dug up.

2) I find it interesting that people come onto a thread, get into a heated discussion, take shots, make claims, etc, and then when a mod. comes on to 'cool' the flames, people take that as an out, and suddenly say that the thread has gotten out of hand. Funny, if it was so out of hand before, why were no posts reported to the mods? I'm on here just about daily, and I've seen no reported posts. Lets not hide behind the mods in an attempt to take some sort of heat off.

3) Krav Maga is like Ninjutsu....when the craze hit, there were legit teachers, and ******** artists, who tried to take advantage of the sudden interest. That being said, there are a ton of Krav Maga schools out there, some of which are definately better than others.

4) I know of people who train with Rhon and the KMF in NY and have spoken very highly of him. I've been friends with Chris (Spork) online, for a while now, and in the very near future, I do plan on visiting the new IKMA school in NYC.

From what I've seen, the IKMA is definately not MMA, neither is the KMF. If some other school is making their Krav MMAish, then thats on them, but that doesnt mean that ALL Krav is MMA. Given the MMA craze as of late, I do think that every art, could benefit from some ground training. Of course, how that training is conducted, is important. The ground work that I've seen in the IKMA isnt MMA0like at all, for the simple fact that it appears to me, and Chris, correct me if I'm wrong, that the idea isn't to prolong the staying on the ground, but instead, to effectively escape and get back to your feet.

I do find it interesting, Guvnor, that if you did in fact visit the Hamilton school, that Chris doesnt remember you. When did you go? I may've missed that answer. If Chris wasn't there, I'm sure some sort of papertrail would indicate if in fact you were there. I know I've dropped in on various schools, and have always signed a waiver. I'd find it very odd for a school to allow someone to train, even if for a day, and not sign some sort of paperwork.

I've also noticed that people are talking about differences. We've heard what the KMF is doing, supposedly outdated stuff. Chris has talked about what the IKMA has done. I've yet to see what any other schools that you've trained at Guvnor, have done. Since you have said that the IKMA isn't the only Krav Maga org. to make changes, please share what your school has done.







In answer to your comments:


1. It is an old thread but still a pertinent issue.


2. I am not a daily visitor but I agree with the MOD, the discussion no longer served the interests of this discussion forum.


3. I couldn't agree more. This is exactly why I posted. I have been to nearly all the Krav Maga instructors in the area and posted my experience with them. I did not mention the instructors that I had the worst experiences with, for obvious reasons.


4. I agree Rhon is a great instructor as are the others I mentioned in my post (IKMA, IKMF, KMG and KMF etc). I always try and encourage people to visit all the Krav schools in the area. Shop around!


5. Nobody said IKMA or KMF was MMA. The point was that there was more ground work at IKMA than KMF, IKMF and KMG. MMA and ground work are two terms people often use together. Nearly all Krav Maga has ground work, some more than others. I also agree with your comment about the point of ground work in Krav. That is also what I have been taught by KMG, IKMF. IKMA and KMF. The MMA/ground work comparison has been made on other forums, media and articles. I am by no means the first to make this comparison. Just look at this video (the whole way through), what do you notice about it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGIAcHi2UvQ Also, try googling 'MMA and IKMA' together and see how many articles/discussions there are discussing MMA and IKMA in the same sentence.


6. How could either Chris or I possibly be expected to remember someone without any idea of my name or a good recent photo of me? Of course I signed a waiver but, like almost everyone else, I haven't given my name out on this public forum, so how could he have checked? I sense a very defensive tone here (why are IKMA so concerned by KMG and the IKMF?). I am surprised at how much importance has been attached to my comments by you guys. Did you really look through 2 years of waivers to look for a waiver when you don't even know my name? I am happy to talk to you off line and even happy to meet you.


I do not have, own or have any interests in a martial arts school. I attend an IKMF school in NY and, as of late, a former KMG school in Long Island as often as I can because I really enjoy it. Sharing my experiences is my only interest in this discussion.


I do however notice in discussions here, for example: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-85792.html that Spork3245 and MJS havea habit of posting things on this forum about how great the IKMA is and pretending that they are objective. I notice you have also commented on this MMA IKMA topic before (see above link).


Don't you think that being IKMA instructors/affiliates might create a conflict of interest - are you really being unbiased? I am glad that you disclosed this interest.


7. Updates. Yes, a great question and a topic I would gladly discuss with you. I am aware of changes to techniques for ground work, chokes, knives, guns and sticks. I will happily show you, we can exchange experiences, although I am not an instructor so you may prefer to contact Avi Moyal, Eyal Yanilov or the IKMF/KMG in NY directly.


I really have nothing further to add to this discussion. It was not my intention to upset you or cause alarm, merely to share my honest experiences. Like I said before, politics shouldn't be allowed to ruin this forum or Krav Maga. I have no doubt many comments will follow but I have said all I have to say about this topic.

[Guvnor]

See my reply below. Good luck guys.

[MJS]

In answer to your comments:


[quote]1. It is an old thread but still a pertinent issue.

Oh, welcome back! :) I'll do my best to answer your questions. Yes, it is an old thread. Given my lengthy time as a member/Admin here, I'll share what I've noticed about revival of old threads. Some are revived for honest reasons. I've revived old threads, because I've felt that there was some good discussion, but they died out, the members who were posting in the thread left, etc, so perhaps a revival would spark new discussion by new members. This is fine.

I've also noticed that sometimes, a thread is revived, by someone who is out to prove a point or run to the defense of someone. Ex: I'm a Kenpo student. Lets say I'm a student of Larry Tatum. I'm not, just using this as an example. Lets say that I'm not a member of Martial Talk, I just lurk. Lets say there was an old thread, in which people were bashing Tatum. I get pissed off at this, decide that I have to run to Larrys defense, so I join up, and start running to his defense, calling out the detractors, trying to 'set the record straight' etc, etc.

In this case, which I've seen many times, 1 of 2 things happen. Either the person is civil, and actually tries to honestly clarify things, or 2) the person is a complete dick, does nothing to cause issues, and either gets themselves banned or the thread locked.

So....while there is, on the surface, nothing wrong with thread revival, I do, many times, question why its being revived. If someone comes on, as I said, and sets the record straight, fine, but if they come on to bash, say this Kenpo GM sucks, that their Kenpo GM is the real deal, etc, well, I shouldn't need to explain further...I'm sure you see where I'm going.





2. I am not a daily visitor but I agree with the MOD, the discussion no longer served the interests of this discussion forum.

Hmm..yet for a page and a half, you and Chris were going back and forth, you not really answering any questions, but when the JKS came on, you suddenly felt the thread was no longer productive. But somehow it was productive before he came on?



3. I couldn't agree more. This is exactly why I posted. I have been to nearly all the Krav Maga instructors in the area and posted my experience with them. I did not mention the instructors that I had the worst experiences with, for obvious reasons.

Agreed. As with any art, IMHO, doing your homework is VERY important. If you're going to invest time and money into training under someone, why not do as much as possible, to ensure that you're training under a legit person, with a solid background, instead of a fake, who is trying to make $$$ by jumping on the bandwagon.



4. I agree Rhon is a great instructor as are the others I mentioned in my post (IKMA, IKMF, KMG and KMF etc). I always try and encourage people to visit all the Krav schools in the area. Shop around!

I simply mentioned that, as in an earlier post, you said the KMF was teaching outdated stuff.



5. Nobody said IKMA or KMF was MMA. The point was that there was more ground work at IKMA than KMF, IKMF and KMG. MMA and ground work are two terms people often use together. Nearly all Krav Maga has ground work, some more than others. I also agree with your comment about the point of ground work in Krav. That is also what I have been taught by KMG, IKMF. IKMA and KMF. The MMA/ground work comparison has been made on other forums, media and articles. I am by no means the first to make this comparison. Just look at this video (the whole way through), what do you notice about it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGIAcHi2UvQ Also, try googling 'MMA and IKMA' together and see how many articles/discussions there are discussing MMA and IKMA in the same sentence.

Actually, you did! You said it here, in this (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?34492-Any-recommendations-for-KM-instruction-in-NYC&p=1400312#post1400312) post...the same post in which you said the KMF techs were outdated. While the 2 terms are often used together, I'd have to say that many times, people dont understand the differences. I watched the clips you posted. In this clip, yes, I see grappling/groundwork. As I've said many times on the forums, it all comes down to how its trained. THAT is what makes the difference. I train Kenpo. Thats my base art, the art I've done the longest, 26yrs now. IMO, the ground work is next to zero. Some say thats not true, I beg to differ. Anyways...I also train some grappling, to supplement what I call a weak area in Kenpo. However, I always try to fit my Kenpo into what I'm working. I dont turn my grappling training into MMA training. Hey, nothing wrong with MMA, if thats what you wish to do. I love the UFC. But, again, it depends on how its being trained. Not sure of your point with posting this link, other than to show they're doing grappling, which you feel is MMA. Given the rise in popularity, I'd think it'd be foolish for one to not include the ground....but again, if you're spending 99% of your time there, looking for a sub/lock/choke, instead of surviving the intial attack, and getting back up...well, THAT is the difference, right there.



6. How could either Chris or I possibly be expected to remember someone without any idea of my name or a good recent photo of me? Of course I signed a waiver but, like almost everyone else, I haven't given my name out on this public forum, so how could he have checked? I sense a very defensive tone here (why are IKMA so concerned by KMG and the IKMF?). I am surprised at how much importance has been attached to my comments by you guys. Did you really look through 2 years of waivers to look for a waiver when you don't even know my name? I am happy to talk to you off line and even happy to meet you.

Chris inquired, initially about your claim, not me. I only followed up on what he said. But by all means, feel free to PM him or I, though seeing that you say you visited the school he trains at, if there is doubt to whether you did/didn't, PM him...maybe that would clear the air of confusion. :) And in the near future, I do plan on stopping by and training at the NYC school. I'm in CT, so its a 2hr train ride, so most I'd be able to get there, would be 2, maybe 3 times a month, thats it.



I do not have, own or have any interests in a martial arts school. I attend an IKMF school in NY and, as of late, a former KMG school in Long Island as often as I can because I really enjoy it. Sharing my experiences is my only interest in this discussion.

Likewise, I do enjoy discussions with fellow martial artists. :) Hell, if it wasn't for Chris, I probably wouldn't know much about his school. :)



I do however notice in discussions here, for example: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-85792.html that Spork3245 and MJS havea habit of posting things on this forum about how great the IKMA is and pretending that they are objective. I notice you have also commented on this MMA IKMA topic before (see above link).

Gee, another old thread. LOL. Lets see...first, I was surfing another Krav forum, in which the ground came up. I thought it'd make for an interesting topic here, seeing that a) I'm not a member of that other forum, and b) I know we have a few KM people here, so I thought, in an effort to liven up this area, that I'd get their opinions. That discussion went well, with alot offering their opinion. :) IMO, I dont feel I was biased, in any way, given, that I'm not a member of any KM school, as of yet. As for one KM org. being great or better than the other...well, as I believe I stated earlier on this thread, there are people that jump on the wagon and add things for the sake of adding. There are others that add it, to stay with the times, and ensure that what they're adding, is quality.



Don't you think that being IKMA instructors/affiliates might create a conflict of interest - are you really being unbiased? I am glad that you disclosed this interest.

Your point is what here?



7. Updates. Yes, a great question and a topic I would gladly discuss with you. I am aware of changes to techniques for ground work, chokes, knives, guns and sticks. I will happily show you, we can exchange experiences, although I am not an instructor so you may prefer to contact Avi Moyal, Eyal Yanilov or the IKMF/KMG in NY directly.


I really have nothing further to add to this discussion. It was not my intention to upset you or cause alarm, merely to share my honest experiences. Like I said before, politics shouldn't be allowed to ruin this forum or Krav Maga. I have no doubt many comments will follow but I have said all I have to say about this topic.

Well, I'm confused....you're saying that you'd be happy to discuss the things I asked, yet your 2nd paragraph implies that you're all done with this thread. So, which is it? Personally, I'd like to see you stay and answer the questions on the updates. Feel free to start another thread if you'd like.

[queenmedic]

www.KMLI.com. This is in Long Island. Very nice people and good instructors. Your first class is free.

[Andy123]

Guys,
In New York there is only one decent Krav Maga place. It's Krav Maga Academy. Iv'e been looking for a good ass kicking for a while and after checking 3 different places (thanks to the wonderful world of coupon websites) I can say without a doubt that Krav Maga Academy is the best. The main instructor Matan Gavish has so much knowledge and the way he explains things shows you he is a true warrior. The other instructors in the academy are excellent too - great technical skills and great atmosphere. This is their website: http://www.kravmagasolutions.com

[Cali Gal]

Thanks for the post Andy123. Since you have only ever posted once and your post was about Krav Maga Academy I can only assume you are one of the people on this forum that uses it to advertise their business. Krav Maga Academy in my opinion one of the worst Krav Maga schools in NYC and it has nothing to do with Imi Lichtenfeld. KM Academy claims all their instructors have 'Special Ops' experience but after seeing them in action, I just cannot believe it. Besides what they teach in the military is basics only and civilian Krav Maga is much more developed. KM Academy only teaches basic drills and very little technique.

I have also tried them all and spent a lot of money doing so and I can say that Krav Maga Academy is one of the worst in NYC (along with James Sherman and one other guy called Tsahi Shemesh on the UWS). Stick with the schools that are inspired by Imi. I can only recommend Haim Zut (Rhon), IKMF (Krav Maga Institute) and IKMA (David Kahn's school) - they are all awsome trainers. They are all leagues ahead of the others in authenticity, technique and training standards.

So that we may walk in peace!