Temple Kung Fu has been exposed http://templefraud.50megs.com
Please support.

Skard1

The ancient fighting methods of the Shaolin monks are all but lost. Wing chun existed, but most of the styles were gone as they weren't written down at all and there was nobody to pass them. People claiming to be Shaolin monsters are nothing more than people with shaved heads performing acrobatics, nothing more, they're not even real monks as I saw them eating meat.

Originally posted by MartialArtist

The ancient fighting methods of the Shaolin monks are all but lost. Wing chun existed, but most of the styles were gone as they weren't written down at all and there was nobody to pass them. People claiming to be Shaolin monsters are nothing more than people with shaved heads performing acrobatics, nothing more, they're not even real monks as I saw them eating meat.

And you got that info from where?

So do you think that charging student's money for Kung Fu and Teaching Them Kenpo/Kempo/Karate is ok?

Skard1

Originally posted by Skarbromantis



And you got that info from where?

So do you think that charging student's money for Kung Fu and Teaching Them Kenpo/Kempo/Karate is ok?

Skard1
When did I say that? I agreed with you and I saidthat there is no such thing as Shaolin monk masters anymore and that a lot of the arts were lost because they weren't written down.

Originally posted by MartialArtist


When did I say that? I agreed with you and I saidthat there is no such thing as Shaolin monk masters anymore and that a lot of the arts were lost because they weren't written down.

Yeah, I see that you were agreeing with him, I think he just read it wrong.

However, I would be interested in knowing where you got the information about there being no shaolin monk masters anymore, cause there are still shaolin temples correct ?


7sm

We still have the Sphinx and the pyramids, but where is the Pharaoh? :)

The Temple today is a tourist attraction. The MA's version of Graceland, so to speak. (But there is no Elvis lol)

One has to be extremely cautious when one hears claim of lineage that is impossible to verify independently.

i recently read that wudang is rebuilding their taoist population and are trying to reestablish their traditions in nei ja.

Originally posted by 7starmantis



Yeah, I see that you were agreeing with him, I think he just read it wrong.

However, I would be interested in knowing where you got the information about there being no shaolin monk masters anymore, cause there are still shaolin temples correct ?


7sm
Shaolin monks revived? Yes, in a way. The monks after the Manchu invasions were pretty muched wiped out. The monks today are trying to revive their traditions but most of their fighting techniques were gone. Their philosophies however, did survive in a way and a lot of their rituals dealing with them. The temples nowadays are more of a tourist attraction now.

Man I hope he wasn't refering to the Long Beach Internationals that Ed Parker ran when he says, "I owned the world's largest tournament in Long Beach. I was the owner of it." The really funny part is this,

Q Did you and Ms. Hilbig travel to Los Angeles to study under Ed Parker?

A No.

Q Did you ever study with Mr. Parker or train with him?

A Mr. Parker was an associate of mine, and for some time we were partners in the Long Beach International Tournament. I didn't have to study under Parker. Mr. Parker awarded me an Eighth Degree Black Belt at the time as a courtesy simply due to the fact that I lectured in all of his classes for quite some time, and when I visited there I think sometimes three or four days in a row with about two or three hundred students there.

Q When was that that Mr. Ed Park awarded you an Eighth Degree Black Belt?

A That was mainly in the end. I think '71.

Sorry, I did read it wrong, my bad.

Skard1

Originally posted by GouRonin

Q When was that that Mr. Ed Park awarded you an Eighth Degree Black Belt?

A That was mainly in the end. I think '71.

Is this so? Did Mr. Parker award people honorary 8th degree black belts?

Originally posted by arnisador
Is this so? Did Mr. Parker award people honorary 8th degree black belts?

Perhaps this is a mystery best left to be asked in the Kenpo section da??
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by KennethKu

We still have the Sphinx and the pyramids, but where is the Pharaoh? :)

The Temple today is a tourist attraction. The MA's version of Graceland, so to speak. (But there is no Elvis lol)

One has to be extremely cautious when one hears claim of lineage that is impossible to verify independently.

Yes, but there was only one pharoah at a time, and some cultures have traced back to their ancestors as to whom was a pharoah. I read an article on it in National Geographic in the Dentist office! ouch!!
Also, the sphinx and pyramids did not house the pharoah. Just because the temple was destroyed doesn't change what was taught there does it? The monks handed down there training, philosophies, religion, everything, does it make it different that their temple was destoyed? Would it cahnge your art, if your school was destoyed by a fire or something ? I don't mean to sound disrespectful, I'm just trying to cover every angle.


7sm

Originally posted by 7starmantis



Yes, but there was only one pharoah at a time, and some cultures have traced back to their ancestors as to whom was a pharoah. I read an article on it in National Geographic in the Dentist office! ouch!!
Also, the sphinx and pyramids did not house the pharoah. Just because the temple was destroyed doesn't change what was taught there does it? The monks handed down there training, philosophies, religion, everything, does it make it different that their temple was destoyed? Would it cahnge your art, if your school was destoyed by a fire or something ? I don't mean to sound disrespectful, I'm just trying to cover every angle.


7sm
Arts like wing chun survived because it was able to be handed down. And now, it is also written. The other styles were not written down for security purposes (no joke) and they weren't really able to pass down their arts because they were destroyed. Most of the "Shaolin monks" you see now are just "fake" techniques that were learned by people who just watched and/or are just new upstarts. Even Northern and Southern Shaolin stylists know that the art practiced by the monks and nuns (yes, there were nuns in the temple like Ng Mui) is not like their art today. Unfortunately, most of their training methods are now just legend.

what about systems that devloped in shaolin and travelled outside the temple?

I totaly agree that the arts we are practicing are different from what was practiced when they were created, but I don't understand how writting them down would have saved them more than handing down by instruction. The monks and nuns teach their students and so forth. Aside from possible "watering down" of techniques and maybe weaker training, what woudl have been changed so dramatically?

Originally posted by theneuhauser

what about systems that devloped in shaolin and travelled outside the temple?

Thats a good question, Praying Mantis for an example is one.



7sm

because of the nature of scripture it is really difficult to actually document a martial art anyway. words and drawings generally create one of two results; step by step instructions for forms and applications(just like dance step instr.) and obscure philosophy such as what is found in the classics of taiji quan. each has merit, obviously neither is perfect, and somewhere along the line most scripture dissappears. as do we all....:(

Originally posted by theneuhauser

what about systems that devloped in shaolin and travelled outside the temple?
Yes, there are a few that did survive. Each has their own history behind it.

The history behind wing chun I know the most about. During a Manchurian invasion, pretty much everyone was killed except for Ng Mui, an elder nun who escaped and taught wing chun and so forth and this is documented and became known to the outside world due to Yip Man.

The styles and the knowledge died with the monks. If you study some Far Eastern history, you'll be surprised just as how much knowledge was lost in the Shaolin arts.

so you dont believe the story that ng mui devised a simple combat system for a lady named wing chun or something close to that?

Originally posted by MartialArtist


The styles and the knowledge died with the monks. If you study some Far Eastern history, you'll be surprised just as how much knowledge was lost in the Shaolin arts.

It depends on who's history book you are reading. I don't doubt that ALOT of knowledge and even probably some full systems were lost, but how can we say in history that knowledge was lost. Who knows what knowledge was lost, and how it was lost ?

Shaolin MA was passed down mouth to ear . Shaolin Temple was branded as enemy of the State by Manchu rulers (or invaders, depends on whose history books you read :D ). The Manchu rulers freaked out after they discovered how powerful the Shaolin monks were. They put the monks to the sword. (so much for unarmed combat. lol) The masters and grandmasters took the art to their early graves.

Originally posted by KennethKu

Shaolin MA was passed down mouth to ear . Shaolin Temple was branded as enemy of the State by Manchu rulers (or invaders, depends on whose history books you read :D ). The Manchu rulers freaked out after they discovered how powerful the Shaolin monks were. They put the monks to the sword. (so much for unarmed combat. lol) The masters and grandmasters took the art to their early graves.

So, does that make all forms of Kung fu that we practice now, who have originated from shaolin temple, new systems? If your quote is true, then how could any kung fu practiced today have originated in shaolin temple?


7sm

I don't know the detailed events regarding how each of them branched out (or in the words of my generation, bastardised) from Shaolin before that calamity. What happened to the Shaolin Temple and the Shaolin monks was historically accurate and documented. It happened during the rule of the Manchu, the last empire to rule China before the founding of modern China, which subsequently got divided into Communist mainland China and Nationalist Taiwan. The Manchu ruled China for several generations. And was pretty powerful till the last generation, as was always the case with worthless kids LOL.

That is why, I am highly wary of peoplo who claim to be successor to Shaolin. Hmmm, actually I am skeptical of any claim to anything that cannot be verified.

Originally posted by 7starmantis



So, does that make all forms of Kung fu that we practice now, who have originated from shaolin temple, new systems? If your quote is true, then how could any kung fu practiced today have originated in shaolin temple?


7sm
I already explained that it depends on each art of kung fu.

Wing chun survived because Ng Mui escaped and taught wing chun and hence came the name.

Some of the arts are just revived arts of what they taught to be.
Others are just generic information that did survive
Others may have held true to their past

you seem pretty sure about wing chun. can you tell us a little more about the story of wing chun. after wing chun aqcuired these skills, how did it get passed on to others?

Originally posted by MartialArtist


I already explained that it depends on each art of kung fu.

Wing chun survived because Ng Mui escaped and taught wing chun and hence came the name.

Some of the arts are just revived arts of what they taught to be.
Others are just generic information that did survive
Others may have held true to their past

I don't understand your method here. If the art "died off" with the destruction of Shoalin temple, how could it be "revived" ? It would have to be re-created. So somehow it must have survived through the destruction, right? I'm also curious to hear your thoughts on wing chun too.

7sm

Originally posted by theneuhauser

so you dont believe the story that ng mui devised a simple combat system for a lady named wing chun or something close to that?
No, I believe it, because it was recorded. But you may ask how it survived and how was it able to be recorded? Well, Ng Mui (different sp's for her name) was able to escape the Manchu invasions. It is recorded and Yip Man I believe was the man who showed the records to preserve his art, as he is credited for making his art popular.

Ng Mui was one of the five elders who created wing chun.

However, legend goes she made it after she saw a fox and a crane battle but there is no way to make sure.

Originally posted by 7starmantis



I don't understand your method here. If the art "died off" with the destruction of Shoalin temple, how could it be "revived" ? It would have to be re-created. So somehow it must have survived through the destruction, right? I'm also curious to hear your thoughts on wing chun too.

7sm
Wing chun is unique in that one of the founders escaped the temple.

Revived as in trying to recreate or putting the puzzle back together with the few basics. Each art has its history behind it, and although I'm not adept in each and every one in history, it's a very interesting subject. One involved an exiled monk who carried some of his knowledge (usually first to second-level). Another story I've read about is that a monk who escaped the Machu invasions. He didn't have a disciple, but he would practice the movements. Another person would watch and get the movements down without getting proper instruction. A lot of them don't have that much evidence, but the reason why it's almost fact that most of their knowledge died with them is...

There is not much of their training methods other than word of mouth, but are less reliable than the Greek poet Homer as it goes down too many times.

No written records were kept by the Shaolin monks to keep it secret.

The knowledge was passed on to the monks by higher-ranking monks. The knowledge died with them.

The only way it would be almost like it was back then is if it was first of all, recorded, then have instructors who learned the skills first-hand and thus, are able to collaborate on the recorded information. Unfortunately, most of it is gone.

Originally posted by 7starmantis



It depends on who's history book you are reading. I don't doubt that ALOT of knowledge and even probably some full systems were lost, but how can we say in history that knowledge was lost. Who knows what knowledge was lost, and how it was lost ?
Knowledge was lost... Manchurian records dealing with the Shaolin monks.

I'm not saying all knowledge was lost, but most of the knowledge was lost as a result of the reasons above.

Another reason was the lack of disciples or students the survivors took on and there were not that many survivors. And the survivors weren't usually elders although there is one case (Ng Mui) but a lof of them were just regular monks. So it would be like a student only taught for 20 years (which may seem like a lot but it isn't qualified traditionally anywhere to get a rank of "master" or a related rank like that) who also knew he didn't have the greatest knowledge in the art trying to teach a student who was not used to the Shaolin customs and training methods. It would be like putting a 12 year old couch potato through at least 5-8 hours of training like I went through in Korea.

For example, it would be like a high school student teaching a class of middle schoolers quantum physics.

Originally posted by theneuhauser

you seem pretty sure about wing chun. can you tell us a little more about the story of wing chun. after wing chun aqcuired these skills, how did it get passed on to others?
I'm not 100% sure, but I think I'm fairly certain

Ng Mui, one of the elders, fled the temple. She met a lady named wing chun who couldn't defend herself so Ng would train wing chun in what we call today, wing chun. Wing chun got passed down because she taught them herself. There is even a history tree of who was the master and the students, etc. all the way down to Yip Man and today, with over 500 instructors.

No written records were kept by the Shaolin monks to keep it secret
I heard that there were many books, but that they got burned during the cultural revolution.

It is pretty certain that Shaolin Monks did not all stay in the temple for life. Besides, the rawer forms of Kung Fu, were often known as 'farmer' or 'village' styles.

The Kung Fu I have seen performed by the monks looks like Wu-Shu, but they do get trained hard from what I saw on a documentary. The training didn't seem very different to the training I've seen done by Hong Kong and Malaysian chinese - i.e. stuff unaffected by the cultural revolution.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't personally object to Shaolin Kempo's name, because the 'Kempo' bit qualifies the 'Shaolin' bit. It's not marketed as Kung Fu and is honest about it's origins.

IT just seems that you are basing your fact of the lost arts on the issue of written documentation. I just don't believe that it must be written to be preserved. Your speak of the Shoalin secrecy but what better secrecy is there than no written documentation? I believe without a doubt that the training methods were lost, but it seems your speaking more of a leneage of the art rather than the techniques and forms of the art itself. Sure the founders and first students are gone, but thats the beauty of disciples. I can't believe that every practitioner of a art taht was at "master" level was destroyed, I don't think that would be possible.


7sm

Originally posted by Bod


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't personally object to Shaolin Kempo's name, because the 'Kempo' bit qualifies the 'Shaolin' bit. It's not marketed as Kung Fu and is honest about it's origins.

What do you mena the Kempo bit qualifies the Shoalin bit? I don't understand.

7sm

Originally posted by 7starmantis

IT just seems that you are basing your fact of the lost arts on the issue of written documentation. I just don't believe that it must be written to be preserved. Your speak of the Shoalin secrecy but what better secrecy is there than no written documentation? I believe without a doubt that the training methods were lost, but it seems your speaking more of a leneage of the art rather than the techniques and forms of the art itself. Sure the founders and first students are gone, but thats the beauty of disciples. I can't believe that every practitioner of a art taht was at "master" level was destroyed, I don't think that would be possible.


7sm
Nope, as I've said, some arts survived.

But a lot of their knowledge died with the monks. Techniques and forms, well, even if they were lost, a lot of the techniques were either around human biomechanics or animal motion. To "revive" it would be for a person to bring it back either purposely or out of coincidence. Some forms? I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them survived or changed. There are no records on the forms as in kata-type form not form form if you know what I mean.

Then comes a lot of problems with knowledge being lost. For the people who did survive, a portion of them took on disciples. But, I doubt everything was passed on and since it is customary to give the secrets until they were worthy (in almost all traditional arts) but yes, a lot of them weren't just able to be passed down.

In retrospect, some Shaolin arts did survive like wing chun, but knowledge was lost in many areas from training to a few techniques.

So do you have a list of the arts you believe survived and the ones that were recreated? Or how to you go about judging that in an art ?


7sm

Originally posted by 7starmantis

So do you have a list of the arts you believe survived and the ones that were recreated? Or how to you go about judging that in an art ?


7sm
Judging it in an art. I don't judge arts. Some techniques are found in a variety of arts. A whole art being recreated? Very unlikely. Techniques being revived? Probably. Training methods surviving? Not likely.

But, I do know that wing chun did survive like I've said before.

What I'm basically trying to say is this (http://www.shaolins.com/) is probably very different from the things the original monks practiced in before the Manchu invasion.

And schools saying that they teach Northern or Southern Shaolin are even bigger frauds. Too general a term.

What do you mena the Kempo bit qualifies the Shoalin bit? I don't understand.

If the school had just Shaolin written, you'd take it for a kung fu school. But Shaolin Kempo? I'd immediately take that for a Kempo school. Maybe just Kempo would be more straightforward.

And schools saying that they teach Northern or Southern Shaolin are even bigger frauds. Too general a term.

I don't know. Northern Shaolin would probably be Long Fist or Northern Five Animals. Southern Shaolin would be Southern Five Animals or Five Ancestors or a bit of both. I've often heard Shaolin to be a synonym for Five Animals, even though it is of course a much broader term.

If it was anything else but these arts I'd be somewhat suspicious about the founder's motives. The worst I've seen is Nam Pai Chaun (North South Fists) which has the practitioners popping into TKD stances but incorporating iron rings and something they call push hands. I've also seen people launch into obvious karate stances, while calling themselves a Kung Fu school. Often they'll borrow the names of stances or punches, usually from Wing Chun, and they'll mix them up.

They usually give themselves away by not saluting to middle left and right at the beginning of a form too. (Does Tai Chi do this? They seem to do a middle, right, left movement as the first 3 moves where they bring their feet together after each one. Is this a 'hidden' salute?)

Originally posted by MartialArtist


What I'm basically trying to say is this (http://www.shaolins.com/) is probably very different from the things the original monks practiced in before the Manchu invasion.

Yeah, I see what your saying, I just always categorized that as evolution of the art, not necesarily a loss. But I do see your point, and I agree.
If the school had just Shaolin written, you'd take it for a kung fu school. But Shaolin Kempo? I'd immediately take that for a Kempo school. Maybe just Kempo would be more straightforward.
Yes, I think it would be more straightforward. I don't see how Shaolin and Kempo can go together at all.
I don't know. Northern Shaolin would probably be Long Fist or Northern Five Animals. Southern Shaolin would be Southern Five Animals or Five Ancestors or a bit of both. I've often heard Shaolin to be a synonym for Five Animals, even though it is of course a much broader term.
I think it would be more appropriate to use the term kung fu where you used shaolin. Shaolin referes to the arts leneage more than the specific style. Northern Kung Fu would be long fist. Southern Kung Fu would be 5 animals. Certain styles may have the leneage of Shaolin such as 7*pm. I think that is the correct usage of Shaolin.

JMHO
7sm

Originally posted by Bod



I don't know. Northern Shaolin would probably be Long Fist or Northern Five Animals. Southern Shaolin would be Southern Five Animals or Five Ancestors or a bit of both. I've often heard Shaolin to be a synonym for Five Animals, even though it is of course a much broader term.

If it was anything else but these arts I'd be somewhat suspicious about the founder's motives. The worst I've seen is Nam Pai Chaun (North South Fists) which has the practitioners popping into TKD stances but incorporating iron rings and something they call push hands. I've also seen people launch into obvious karate stances, while calling themselves a Kung Fu school. Often they'll borrow the names of stances or punches, usually from Wing Chun, and they'll mix them up.

They usually give themselves away by not saluting to middle left and right at the beginning of a form too. (Does Tai Chi do this? They seem to do a middle, right, left movement as the first 3 moves where they bring their feet together after each one. Is this a 'hidden' salute?)
What I meant by Northern and Southern styles is that they teach it as a whole.

Like a person saying they teach karate instead of what type.

I don't see how anyone could use the terms northern or shouthern Shaolin. Neither would be a correct usage and I would be wary of anyone who did use that termonology.


7sm

Originally posted by 7starmantis

I don't see how anyone could use the terms northern or shouthern Shaolin. Neither would be a correct usage and I would be wary of anyone who did use that termonology.


7sm
Exactly the point.

Ok, but can someone try to explain how "Shaolin Kempo" is legitament? I don't understand how that statement is correct.

7sm

My impression is that ALL the Chinese/ Japanese/ Korean Martial Arts are ultimately derived from training given by the Indian Monk Bhodidharma (spelling?) in meditation techniques. From this, you could infer that that the original form of Shoalin style (and all the subsequent derived styles) were based on Indian Yoga, which is still practised today in a fairly pure form!

This may sound odd to modern 'aggressive' stylists, but also consider that modern Tai Chi is really a watered down version of a more ancient internal style and is often likened to Yoga with movement.

I have also heard conjecture that the more aggressive hard styles that are typically studied today were generally considered the beginner pre-requisites to prepare the mind, body and spirit to study the more advanced and esoteric techniques. This theme is actually born out in many modern hard stlyes where manipulation techniques (locks, pressures points, throws, etc.) and power through breathing and chi/ki are only taught to higher ranks. Additionally this is also common practice in Yoga where advance breathing and energy (chi/ki) harnessing exercises are only undertaken once the person has reached a suitable physical capability.

I would suggest that the key is to follow your own path to whatever value you seek from whatever martial art you study, be it physical, mental or metaphysical. There is no point getting hung up in politics or disputes about my style this, versus your style that. Find a good school at a reasonable cost with an instructor you like and get on with it!

Originally posted by 7starmantis

Ok, but can someone try to explain how "Shaolin Kempo" is legitament? I don't understand how that statement is correct.

7sm

I believe the idea is based upon the premise that the five animal Shaolin style was imparted to a Japanese practictioner and that all the Kenpo/Kempo variations are derived from that source.

I am currently studying a japanese kenpo style, but have previously studied Kung-Fu, Jiu-Jitsu and TKD. There are many similarities and many differences between different styles; Some emphasize one aspect over another (TKD kicking, Jiu-Jitsu locks and throws, etc...) but generally I have found more similarities than differences.

The Karate Kenpo I am studying appears to include both a hard Karate/ Japanese element (strong blocks and punches, etc.) but also has many elements that I remember from the Kung-Fu I studied in terms of variations of strikes, stances and combination techniques.

I have certainly enjoyed getting back into Martial Arts after a 15 year break, how much of my enjoyment is based on the style, versus the teacher, versus just plain adrenalin, I am not sure and not sure I care!

Chu Chulain wrote:

"but also consider that modern Tai Chi is really a watered down version of a more ancient internal style and is often likened to Yoga with movement."

REAL T'ai Ji Quan is not "watered down" anything !!!
It is a refinement of an older boxing method...
REAL T'ai Ji Quan is VERY powerful boxing...
If you haven't met anyone with real skill, don't generalize that to the rest of the martial arts community.
And...it does have the benefits of Yoga...but the movements are combat effective.

:asian:
chufeng

Originally posted by chufeng


REAL T'ai Ji Quan is not "watered down" anything !!!
It is a refinement of an older boxing method...
REAL T'ai Ji Quan is VERY powerful boxing...
If you haven't met anyone with real skill, don't generalize that to the rest of the martial arts community.
And...it does have the benefits of Yoga...but the movements are combat effective.

:asian:
chufeng

Hmmmm, guess I touched a raw nerve there, maybe needs some self-healing.

You clearly missed the spelling as 'Tai Chi' and the reference to modern, which is a watered down version and typically practised for health and well-being, as with modern Yoga. I certainly don't recall referencing T'ai Ji Quan or any other versions of internal chinese martial arts.

I personally have respect for all styles of martial arts and feel they all have something to offer. I also personally think some people (martial artists or otherwise) take themselves far too seriously and might benefit from some meditation and deep breathing;)

"I believe the idea is based upon the premise that the five animal Shaolin style was imparted to a Japanese practictioner and that all the Kenpo/Kempo variations are derived from that source."

I suggest you read a little history before putting forth such a premise...

regarding my other post...I agree that there is a lot of crap that passes itself off as Tai Chi...but when referencing Tai Chi on a Chinese martial arts forum, I assume (my mistake) that the reference refers to the martial art and NOT the New-age feel good stuff. If others view you as a credible resource, then making statements about Tai Chi being watered down (without qualifying what you mean) may mislead some.

You wrote : "Find a good school at a reasonable cost with an instructor you like and get on with it!" If there is only one school in town, what then? and, if someone doesn't know what to look for, how will that person know if it's good, bad, or otherwise?

Perhaps you can share HOW to spot a good school...

:asian:
chufeng

Originally posted by chufeng

You wrote : "Find a good school at a reasonable cost with an instructor you like and get on with it!" If there is only one school in town, what then? and, if someone doesn't know what to look for, how will that person know if it's good, bad, or otherwise?

Perhaps you can share HOW to spot a good school...

:asian:
chufeng

I believe that post was directed at me, so I want to respond to it as well. I wasn't asking about Shoalin because I am looking to learn some system that calls itself Shoalin so I can go around and say I know Shoalin, I was asking because I don't believe a Sholain Kempo School can legitamently call itslef Shoalin. Shoalin referes to is leneage and I don't see how that could be correct. I currently study a style of Kung Fu, I am just wondering why so many people in so many different systems try to "claim" shoalin ancestry.


7sm

First I certainly had no intenion of offending anyone or denigrating any style and did not imbed such in my post. If people choose to read too much into free expressions of opinion and take personal offense based on preconceived prejudice, I can't help that...

On the topic of finding a good school, you only know if you enjoy a wine by tasting it. Of course it helps to get opinions from friends and acquaintances, but at the end of the day, the only way you can know if a style/ school suits you is to try it out for a month or two.

On the topic of Shaolin names and association, so what? Almost every modern martial art can claim some distance connection to the Shaolin monastery and styles; someone new someone else who trained someone who travelled to somewhere and met someone, etc....

Whether or not a school/ style claims some lineage does not matter, its what it offers to the student that counts. I think Bruce Lee expressed it as no one develops a taste for watered wine and I would hope most people can discern the truth and depth after trying something for a while and shouldn't really worry about the name?

The only instance where claims of names and association should be disputed, is where it is used as the basis for heavy marketing, high costs and 'hidden knowledge', etc. as expressed at the beginning of this thread. Then Buyer Beware!

Originally posted by Chu-Chulain

I would suggest that the key is to follow your own path to whatever value you seek from whatever martial art you study, be it physical, mental or metaphysical. There is no point getting hung up in politics or disputes about my style this, versus your style that. Find a good school at a reasonable cost with an instructor you like and get on with it!

Originally posted by Chu-Chulain
Hmmmm, guess I touched a raw nerve there, maybe needs some self-healing.

You clearly missed the spelling as 'Tai Chi' and the reference to modern, which is a watered down version and typically practised for health and well-being, as with modern Yoga. I certainly don't recall referencing T'ai Ji Quan or any other versions of internal chinese martial arts.

Originally posted by Chu-Chulain
First I certainly had no intenion of offending anyone or denigrating any style and did not imbed such in my post. If people choose to read too much into free expressions of opinion and take personal offense based on preconceived prejudice, I can't help that...
You claim to not want to offend anyone so I want to point out just one thing. All of these statements have a hollier-than-thou, Yoda complex sound. And these type of statements tend to offend someone who has been studing a system for qute a while. That is why people jump on your posts. But I think you allready know that.

Allow me to address your latest post though. I don't believe at all that every modern MA can claim an ancestry to Shoalin. Shoalin only referes to where that system was created, at the Sholain Temple. I can't see how systems that were created prior to or at the same time as some that were created at Shoalin temple can claim that leaneage. And this is serious because it is a flase advertsiemnt and is very misleading to beginner MAist looking for a system. In todays society it has come to conjure up meanings and thoughts of a superior system and people use that to make money, and that, I guess just to me, is wrong.


Just My Opinion,
7sm

Well I guess you have me all figured out.

I don't know much and have little to offer in opinion, advice or experience to such a learned, esteemed and enlightened group of martial artists. I will retreat and leave you to argue over who's style is really Shaolin (or shoalin or whatever...) and who is following the true path versus evil, heretics and imposters.

It was fun while it lasted, but me, I'll go training and have some fun!


:yinyang:

I wasn't offended...

I do think that distinguishing between Tai Chi (new age feel good stuff) and T'ai Ji (real martial arts) is ridiculous...it's all phonetic spelling of Chinese characters. If my pointing out that real T'ai Ji is powerful boxing, how does that make me overly sensitive?

No...I was not offended...

...I assumed (my mistake) that you were talking about martial arts. You assumed (your mistake) that I was upset...

Shorin is the Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin...
Kempo is the Okinawan pronunciation of Kung Fu/Ch'uan Fa...
Shorin Kempo IS Shaolin Ch'uan Fa...and it directly came from the Fujien temple...BEFORE the temple was sacked...Yes, Kempo can be called Shaolin...but, as someone else said, "what difference does it make?"

:asian:
chufeng

You are incorrect about shoalin temple, and the reason it makes a difference is for the integrity of the arts.

los espaguetis is the spanish pronuniation of spaghetti
That doesn't make spaghetti spanish food.


7sm

If you say so...:idunno:

chufeng

You're right.

Spaghetti is of course....

....Chinese!

Perhaps petitioning the Mod Gods for help would allow a link to the discussion a few months back about the effect Shaolin (please note the spelling, folks... Shoalin, Sholain and other variations are incorrect - just three words: Spell Check ;) ) has had on martial arts...

It is likely that Shaolin's only real impact on martial arts was in bringing practitioners of varying styles together under one roof where they could "play nice" and not be all too concerned with keeping their arts secret from each other.

Whatever.

If a style calls itself Shaolin something, and it is presented as a Japanese or Okinawan art, be wary... There are all too many folks out there looking to separate you from your $$$. Ask questions, and don't be afraid that you are going to violate some ancient cultural taboo against questioning a teacher... You live in the USA, and OUR tradition is "buyer beware." Good luck in your searching.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

If a style calls itself Shaolin something, and it is presented as a Japanese or Okinawan art, be wary... There are all too many folks out there looking to separate you from your $$$. Ask questions, and don't be afraid that you are going to violate some ancient cultural taboo against questioning a teacher... You live in the USA, and OUR tradition is "buyer beware." Good luck in your searching.

Exactly my point! People tend to use the term Shaolin to increase prices, or offer a felling of superiority. That's just wrong no matter what term you are using to do it.


7sm

The Changing Faces Of Shaolin Kenpo
By Jeanne Capps


Ralph Castro approaches, his black hair generously flecked with well-earned gray. Flashing an infectious smile, he possesses a calm, friendly, sincere manner tinged with a playfulness that belies his 68 years. He begins greeting the 150-plus kenpo dignitaries who have gathered to witness the "passing of the baton" to his eldest son, Rob.

The younger Castro will gradually, under his father’s watchful eye, take over the day-to-day running of the Shaolin Kenpo Association, giving Ralph more time to enjoy the twilight of his life.

Not that the elder Castro is slowing down. Not by long shot. Don't even mention the word retirement because that word doesn’t exist in his vocabulary.

"I have been giving thoughts to doing a biography on the shaolin system," Ralph admits. "We have been doing a lot of seminars as well having been approached to do videos on the system, but I am holding back right now while trying to find the right angles from which to approach it."

Make Way For The Ceremony
On this night, however, talk about books and videos make way for the ceremony of handing down the grandmastership from father to son. It is a ceremony that serves numerous purposes. First, it signals a style’s natural family progression. Secondly, it announces to all that should something happen to Ralph, the successor’s name has been etched in stone.This is a sad sign of the times. On at least two occasions, grandmasters in full control of the organizations have unexpectedly died. What followed can be likened to a piranha feeding frenzy as senior students scratched and clawed for pieces of the organization.

Castro wanted to ensure these battles would be non-existent within the shaolin system. "In the early years I already had the planning stage set for myself, because of my dear friends that had passed away and the chaos that ensued. I learned from that," Ralph explains. "I said I am not going to let that happen to me. I am going to do it now because I would like to make sure things run right.

"The kenpo people, they know who Rob is," added the elder Castro. "He has competed in the (Ed Parker’s Long Beach) Internationals and has taken firsts in sparring. He already has a reputation set. I have said that you support grandmaster Rob or you move on."

Building A Foundation
Pausing, Ralph Castro reflected on the years working with his son.
"When you mold your own child from the beginning, you are with him every day and every night. You have a closer bond and relationship with your own, so you feel secure that this is going to be your chosen.

"Yes, you may adopt a student and make him, say the leader of the clan. Or a top student, yes, if you have no one. But if you have a child that you have trained from the start, he has maintained the respect of the system, in other people and in himself, I think you are on your right way. I can say that, for my part as a teacher, father —and I've got to say, friend — I thought the choice I made was done through the guidance of the Lord.

"There are many times I have made mistakes. The system...there's good, there's bad and there's ugly. And the ugliness is when you make a bad mistake. I thank the Lord for his guidance, his precious gift to me, the blessings he has bestowed on my family and for my son."

With the induction ceremony for, and the performance by, grandmaster Rob Castro, a new era begins for the Castro family and the Shaolin system. But as one sees the future, one also cannot help but look back to see how far shaolin kenpo has come.

Originally from Honolulu, Hi., Ralph Castro was 21 when he began training with professor William Chow, considered the modern-day founder of the kenpo system.

"I had a chance one weekend to meet the professor and I went to his school," Castro remembers. "When the professor walked in, everyone else knew who he was but me. I looked at this man. He had calluses on knuckles. I thought 'Wow’. I didn't say anything but I knew I had to see this man work out. In those days the school wasn't open to the public and my brother-in-law said that he didn't think I could watch. He was kneeling down on the floor conducting classes, and I was unfamiliar with the traditional part of how it was all done. I just walked in like a local boy, putting my arm around him and then looking at these guys working out and saying to myself, ‘What the heck are they doing?'
"Professor stood up and said, 'Stop.' He looked at me and said, 'I'm going throw a punch. He did it so fast. That was when I backed up, being very humble.
"Professor Chow’s nickname was ‘Thunderbolt’ and he did feel like a thunderbolt when he hit you. Some say it was because of his speed but some say it was because when he hit you from the front it felt like he hit you from the back. The man himself wasn't very tall but powerful. And he never taught the same technique twice."

The Years With Chow
So began the years of study under professor Chow.
"In my training with the professor I would train seven days a week and if there were eight days I would train eight days," he recalled. "Something my wife wasn't very happy about. But we worked it out. In fact, after I came to the Mainland, I felt miserable at not being able to train. My wife is the one who encouraged me to go out and train with a friend. I ended up working as a manager at a gas station but I wasn't content. She knew that I always thought about karate so she told me one evening, 'You ever thought about opening up your own school? Yeah, I mean you're not making good money and maybe the karate will help you. We'll take a chance on it', and I did. That is how I got started in 1958.

"Of course, my good friend Ed Parker helped me start up the business side of it. Shaolin kenpo wasn't shaolin kenpo back then but my style was different from his and he liked that. He gave me my black belt because at that time I didn't know if I would ever see professor again. But when I did see him again in the 1970s, he gave me my grandmastership. In 1981, during a visit to professor Chow in Hawaii, I officially began shaolin kenpo, under his approval. Although I had been teaching shaolin for a while, it was now sanctioned by the professor."

Since coming to the Mainland in 1958 and settling in Daly City, Calif., Ralph Castro has slowly built shaolin kenpo away of the public eye.

"For years we never really shared our system, wanting to keep it to ourselves," he noted. "But now we realize that we want others to share it, to help it continue to flourish so we started opening up more by doing more seminars. We opened the gate with a tour in Spain back in 1995. Since then we have been approached constantly to share our system."

The Magnificent 7
With 21 schools worldwide, including in Spain, El Salvador, California and Hawaii, the system has begun to flourish. All seven of Ralph’s children — April, May, Rob, Ralph "Boss" Castro III, June, July and Mia — are involved in the martial arts, making the Castros a true "martial arts family".
At one time, in the 1970s they were called "The Magnificent Seven".

"We were the first family, in the early years, to choreograph the forms to music," Ralph admits with pride. "We were the family that used music for our demos long before it became the popular thing that it is now."

Adds Rob, "When we started competing there were no weight classes, no divisions of kata and forms. There was just age and male/female. Nowadays music is a part of competition.

"San Francisco has always been the base for shaolin kenpo," added Rob. "It has always been the Bay area. Whenever anyone hears of Ralph Castro or shaolin kenpo, it has always been Northern California. I look forward to being more involved. Great grandmaster will never retire. He will always have his hand in shaolin kenpo as long as he is able."

Although Rob admits being the son of a grandmaster comes with its own unique demands, the overall experience has been positive.

"It was karate, eat, sleep, karate," he maintains. "Because the school was my father’s way of making a living, we were all involved in it after school. Our average day was wake up, go to school, after school go to the studio where we worked out. As we got older we got more involved in the classes and into teaching so there were no extracurricular activities. This went on all throughout high school.

"In a way I felt I was robbed in the sense that I missed out being able to be on the football team and such but through the years I am actually glad that my dad did do that because it helped me, for one thing, to focus more on myself and it has been good on my children. As a kid, I had a lot of temptations but the martial arts gave me a reason for not following those temptations. I took the straight path and it has taken me to where I am now."

Rob also said there are other positive aspects with being involved in the martial arts at such as young age.

"As a young boy, I remember family friend, Bruce Lee, teaching me a form at our school," he explained. "I forgot it long ago but to have spent time with a man who is credited by many for opening martial arts up to the world and who was so knowledgeable was a thrill. Also as an older teen, I got to spend time with professor Chow."

Rob recalled an incident during a visit, which left a lasting, if not painful, impression.
"I went with a friend to Hawaii and got to visit with professor Chow," he recalled. "At his house I noticed a hanging bag and I went up to it. I mean it was a canvas-type bag, not very big, maybe half the size of a regular kicking-type bag. You know, normally when you see a bag you maybe give it a little tap, one or two. Well, his bag was as solid as concrete. I hit it, not realizing what was in it. Nowadays, I always make sure to lightly tap someone else’s bag before really hitting it."

Throughout his martial arts life, Ralph Castro has guided shaolin kenpo through a strict set of fundamental principles.

"Everything we do in life can be done correctly or incorrectly, but if the guidance and wisdom is there then that person will have a strong foundation," he insisted. "If every child knew the foundation of what martial arts has, the respect, then everything would be fine. There would be no more fighting. I want people to understand that shaolin kenpo is designed for everyone. For understanding, confidence, security, peace and comfort."

Jeanne Capps last wrote about the first Kenpo Gathering in the June, 1999 issue.

ummm, wow. I'm just talking abotu Shaolin Kempo alltogether. Actually I'm talking about Shaolin mainly and the many different arts that now claim heratige to Shaolin.



7sm

I don't believe at all that every modern MA can claim an ancestry to Shoalin. Shoalin only referes to where that system was created, at the Sholain Temple. I can't see how systems that were created prior to or at the same time as some that were created at Shoalin temple can claim that leaneage. And this is serious because it is a flase advertsiemnt and is very misleading to beginner MAist looking for a system. In todays society it has come to conjure up meanings and thoughts of a superior system and people use that to make money, and that, I guess just to me, is wrong.

Just My Opinion,
7sm
Ok, lets clear somethings up here.

Not every style claiming Shaolin is trying to fool someone or make money off the name. If it is a kenpo/kempo style ,then of course it's not a shaolin style ,but ppl use shaolin kempo for their own reasons.

Many styles like Shaolin Hung Fut or Shaolin Black Tiger use the name shaolin for different reasons. Sil Lum Hak Fu Muhn or Shaolin Black Tiger was not created at the shaolin temple ,but it was created from the same Shaolin Tiger Claw system ,that led to the creation of Hung Gar.

Su Hak Fu created black tiger from his knowledge of the Shaolin Tiger Claw system ,that he learned from a shaolin monk. Later after creating his black tiger system Su Hak Fu taught it to shaolin monks. This is where the title of shaolin black tiger came from ,although it was not created there.

At one time black tiger was the highest level of shaolin training.

Now this is where other styles get their shaolin roots. The Shaolin Temple was a meeting point for many rebels and masters hiding from the govt'. While in the temple many exchanged their arts and teachings with each other and the monks in the temple.

So by this interchanging of styles and masters many unknown arts became popular because of their time in shaolin. It's because of their time at shaolin that these arts aquired the shaolin name.

So, it's not that these arts are trying to fool anyone or gain popularity off the name ,it was applied to them by others.

jeff:)

I believe that is so, but that doesn't change the fact that there are many, many, schools using the name shoalin to lend some sort of legitimacy to the name and thus get students. You may have more faith in people than I do, but I've seen it many a time. I'm not saying your school is one of them, I'm simply saying this does exist.

7sm

I believe that is so, but that doesn't change the fact that there are many, many, schools using the name shoalin to lend some sort of legitimacy to the name and thus get students. You may have more faith in people than I do, but I've seen it many a time. I'm not saying your school is one of them, I'm simply saying this does exist.

7sm
Ohh yeah, it does exist ,i'm not denying that. I was only pointing out why so many styles tend to have a shaolin connection ,when they weren't created there.

But there are many that have no ties to shaolin at all ,that also try to gain off the name.

jeff:)

In addition to the Castros, "Shaolin Kempo" was also a name used by Villari when he left Nick Cerio. I don't believe he was trying to deceive anyone into thinking it was chinese kung-fu!

Now in 2004 it is a widely known style of Kempo that traces it's roots back to Kajukenbo. I thoguht that was common knowledge haha I guess I'm just biased.

Ohh yeah, it does exist ,i'm not denying that. I was only pointing out why so many styles tend to have a shaolin connection ,when they weren't created there.

But there are many that have no ties to shaolin at all ,that also try to gain off the name.

jeff:)
True. Hey we agree! :)

7sm

True. Hey we agree! :)

7sm
We actually agree on alot ,it just doesn't seem like it haha

jeff:)