Kicks to the Groin

[ChrisWTK]

Ok, so durring sparring I have a habbit of going for the groin(against men), it's easy for me to kick there, and I think they leave it open for attack. But my instructor mentioned that it's dishonorable to go for it(while sparring). I have no qualms about going for it in a real situation.

Am I in the wrong and this is a lack of control on my part, or should guys just learn to not leave it open?

[Andrew Green]

Yes, you should not attack the groin durring sparring. It's unsportsman like and potentially very dangerous.

Even with a cup a decent hit can land a guy in surgery. There is a reason this is a banned target in a all fight sports.

[Kacey]

Ok, so durring sparring I have a habbit of going for the groin(against men), it's easy for me to kick there, and I think they leave it open for attack. But my instructor mentioned that it's dishonorable to go for it(while sparring). I have no qualms about going for it in a real situation.

In a real situation, yes, go for it - but there are targets one should not attack with one's training partners, and this is one of them. You are opening yourself up to a wide range of potential complications, some of them legal; if you hurt someone and it is deemed to be deliberate, you instructor's insurance will have to pay, which could make him uninsurable (lack of control of his students on his part) and cause him to quit; it could leave you liable for all medical costs, and open to a lawsuit - either from criminal charges, civil court, or both. These potential outcomes are on the extreme end, but they are possible if you continue this way - and since you say it is deliberate, you would be liable... and since your instructor has warned you and told you to stop, his insurance may not cover you (if he even has insurance).


Am I in the wrong and this is a lack of control on my part, or should guys just learn to not leave it open?

Both. You are in the wrong, and it is a lack of control on your part (unless you're doing it deliberately, in which case it is negligent), and guys should learn not to leave it open. However, just because they leave it open, doesn't mean you should hit it in class - have you ever been kicked in the groin? I have - and while I hear it's worse for men, it's not great for women, either. That's some very delicate and easily damaged tissue, that can be very difficult to treat, and doesn't always heal properly. Also, if you continue, you run the very real risk that one (or more) of your fellow students will do the same to you, as a payback.

[Lisa]

Ok, so durring sparring I have a habbit of going for the groin(against men), it's easy for me to kick there, and I think they leave it open for attack. But my instructor mentioned that it's dishonorable to go for it(while sparring). I have no qualms about going for it in a real situation.

Am I in the wrong and this is a lack of control on my part, or should guys just learn to not leave it open?

Your intention may not be to do any real damage, but you could do serious damage just by mistake.

Remember most of these people need to be able to go to work the next day and live a real life outside of the school. Just as you wouldn't want to be seriously injured as to interupt your daily life, I am sure, neither do they.

[Zoran]

If the rules are no groin in the school, then it's no groin. Some schools, like mine, allow groin shots as a valid target during sparring. Of course you should demonstrate some contol and not try to punt someones groin like a football.:btg:

[ChrisWTK]

Thanks Kacey and Andrew. I didn't take into consideration the legal issues. I've been more aware of it since I was warned and not going for it even if I see an opening. Lately I've just lifted leg and stopped halfway so they know I could have gone for it.

Another problem I noticed is that when some moves are taught to us the instructor will say that in order to deal with the attack to go for groin, well that might be ok in a real situation, but that's not teaching us for friendly combat. I'm not going to grab my partner's balls and twist just because he got me in a bear hug. Nor am I going to be able to poke his eyes, scratch his face or any other dirty tactics. I think I should look into making sure when he says those things, he should also mention a way out that isn't so destructive.

Do you think it's a female thing to go for the groin because it's taught as a general self defense reaction, while for men they don't go for it cause they know it's low?

[Bigshadow]

Nor am I going to be able to poke his eyes, scratch his face or any other dirty tactics.

I wouldn't call it dirty tactics. If your dojo has rules against that in sparring then I would call it "illegal tactics". But in self defense there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.



Do you think it's a female thing to go for the groin because it's taught as a general self defense reaction, while for men they don't go for it cause they know it's low?
IMHO, neither. Some go for it because they have a fixation with attacking there, because they know that many people leave it unprotected, it is also below the focus tunnel and a few other reasons. Just be careful that you are not telegraphing, often times if someone is intent on going for a specific technique they will give themselves away just before that point in time.

Additionally, IMO the kick to the groin in SD is really difficult to do with normal natural stances. Usually people are either within arms reach (making it difficult to make a direct hit without holding up an attack sign) or they are out of your reach and is difficult to attack without really telegraphing. It really is only affective on someone in a martial artsy stance who isn't paying attention.

[ChrisWTK]

have you ever been kicked in the groin?
Yes, but never in class. For me, it usually doesn't phase me, probably cause I'm not being hit in a way that it will hurt, for example I know if you're kicked toe up it will hurt alot. The most painful experience for me in that area was falling on a pole, sortof like you see in the funniest home videos.
In class, I get hits to the head.


It really is only affective on someone in a martial artsy stance who isn't paying attention.
I didn't realize this, thanks for the info.:asian:

[Zoran]

There is a reason this is a banned target in a all fight sports.

Sure, because it can end the fight too fast and the promoters don't make their money (same reason they put big puffy gloves on boxers).

Sorry, couldn't help it. Please return to the topic at hand. :)

[ChrisWTK]

Sure, because it can end the fight too fast and the promoters don't make their money (same reason they put big puffy gloves on boxers).

Sorry, couldn't help it. Please return to the topic at hand. :)

Honestly, why don't martial arts teach blocks and movements that will protect that area, if it's such a place to be worried about you'd think more emphasis would be placed on protecting it.

Hey Zoran, if you change the 'n' to 'm' in whitetigerkenpo.com you'd get the school i train at.

[Zoran]

Honestly, why don't martial arts teach blocks and movements that will protect that area, if it's such a place to be worried about you'd think more emphasis would be placed on protecting it.
Honestly, I was surprised to hear of a Kenpo/Kempo school not allowing groin kicks in sparring. I remember the first time I sparred in 81 before all those improvements made with the cup. I threw a high kick at someone more experienced, and failed to cover or protect my groin. The damn thing basically went up into the family jewels and I remember them picking me up out of the fetal position. I tell you, I never did it again. (actually I lied, I did it one more time before it sunk in)

These days, the way cups are now, you are much more protected than back then. I don't get the big deal. When someone gets a groin shot in on me, I usually heartily congratulate my opponent for slipping one in. While analyzing what stupid move I did to allow it to happen.


Hey Zoran, if you change the 'n' to 'm' in whitetigerkenpo.com you'd get the school i train at
:D

[hong kong fooey]

I agree I don't think you should go fro the groin in sparing but in a real fight heck yea you do what ever you have to

[mantis]

Ok, so durring sparring I have a habbit of going for the groin(against men), it's easy for me to kick there, and I think they leave it open for attack. But my instructor mentioned that it's dishonorable to go for it(while sparring). I have no qualms about going for it in a real situation.

Am I in the wrong and this is a lack of control on my part, or should guys just learn to not leave it open?
yeah dont kick all the way
maybe pretend you are kicking when you spar. you do need control.
I think it is good that you take advantage of your opponent's mistakes, but that doesnt mean you should actually kick them. I usually tell the person hey i got your groin, or go for it but not all the way. It is a part of training to cover your vital areas in most arts.

[mantis]

Honestly, why don't martial arts teach blocks and movements that will protect that area, if it's such a place to be worried about you'd think more emphasis would be placed on protecting it.

Hey Zoran, if you change the 'n' to 'm' in whitetigerkenpo.com you'd get the school i train at.
I agree with you. I think he should go for the groin whenever he think it's a good shot. He should not actually hit the groin in sparring, and maybe not in tournaments either. The instructor has to emphasize how to protect ones groin.

[Sam]

I will disagree with some of the people here. Yes, a good groin shot could "land a guy in surgery", but so could a good punch or kick to the head, and those are still allowed. I do not think a groin shot is "dis-honorable" unless your school does not allow it. If for some reason they decide that, then you do what your instructors say. But this is why we use control. A good reverse punch or side kick could break ribs, but those are also allowed. It's all about control.

[FearlessFreep]

There have been threads in this forum relating to men hitting womenin the chest, whether accidentally or out of maliciousness, and how women feel about that, and how (in)appropriate it is in a classroom setting, and how to address such concerns with instructors, and other topics. Would bear some reading

A little common mutual respect for your training partner(s) goes a long way

[ChrisWTK]

There have been threads in this forum relating to men hitting womenin the chest, whether accidentally or out of maliciousness, and how women feel about that, and how (in)appropriate it is in a classroom setting, and how to address such concerns with instructors, and other topics. Would bear some reading

A little common mutual respect for your training partner(s) goes a long way

Yes, I've read them, as well as some of the other forum topics that are similar to this.
And if I get hit in the chest then so be it, I left it open for attack, it was my fault. Atleast that's my opinion. This holds true until I sense that the person is doing it in an inappropriate way. Self Defense is you protecting yourself, not the other person not hurting you. But I do agree that a certain amount of respect for your training partners is required. I'm not out to hurt my fellow practitioners, I just wanted to know who is responsible for such an attack.

For example, I got blasted in the head recently durring sparring, yeah I was wearing protective gear so it wasn't anything to worry about, but if the instructor then told us we weren't allowed to punch each other in the head is that really teaching me to protect my head?

[Marginal]

I will disagree with some of the people here. Yes, a good groin shot could "land a guy in surgery", but so could a good punch or kick to the head, and those are still allowed. You're comparing apples to tomatoes. Bones are typically harder to damage than exposed organs. It's like calling foul that eye pokes and throat punching are usually restricted in sparring.

[Sam]

if you are wearing a cup and gi pants it isn't *exposed* .

[Andrew Green]

yes it is, a cup does not provide near enough protection for this to be safe. Most parts of the body can absorb a strike and heal on their own, testicles is not such a part. Very much like the eyes.

[Sam]

Well, I'm sure there have been accidents, but that happens in all MA's... my instructors have been training that way for 30 years, and they've never complained of non-working parts.

There is risk in all MA's. I guess it just depends on what risks you think are too much.

[mantis]

Well, I'm sure there have been accidents, but that happens in all MA's... my instructors have been training that way for 30 years, and they've never complained of non-working parts.

There is risk in all MA's. I guess it just depends on what risks you think are too much.
it is still dis-honorable to try that with full power. You are assuming they have some sort of a protective cup, which may not necessarily be true. Usually try to avoid hitting the vital areas regardless which part of the body they are. in a real-life self defense situation those are your goals so figure a balance between training to hit those points and not actually hitting them in training.

BTW, i have an instructor that does not save a chance when it comes to kicking the groin. If he sees your groin open he'd knee it as hard as you can "so you remember to protect it" he says!

[Andrew Green]

BTW, i have an instructor that does not save a chance when it comes to kicking the groin. If he sees your groin open he'd knee it as hard as you can "so you remember to protect it" he says!

I'd call that negligance and find another instructor, someone is going to get seriously hurt...

[Zoran]

yes it is, a cup does not provide near enough protection for this to be safe. Most parts of the body can absorb a strike and heal on their own, testicles is not such a part. Very much like the eyes.

I guess this all comes down to what you are training for. If you are training for full contact sport combat (like kickboxing and mma) then there is no need for groin strikes (also full contact groin kicks would not be a good idea).

For those that do light contact sparring that are more concerned with self defense than any sport, many of us prefer to have as many targets available as possible within saftey limits. If there was a way to realistically and safely target eyes, throat, knee cap and etc. we would do it (For eyes, I know some that use goggles for this purpose).

Andrew, seeing in your profile that you are an MMA player, you will have a different perspective on this than someone else in a different kind of MA (like kenpo). I personally can't imagine doing full contact sparring on a consistant basis (I've done it, never liked it), or stepping into a ring to fight. I personally don't like sparring when you take away a target such as groin. But that's me. :)

[FearlessFreep]

And if I get hit in the chest then so be it, I left it open for attack, it was my fault. Atleast that's my opinion.

If the instructor says you shouldn't do it in class, you shouldn't do it in class, same as hitting women in the chest, or hitting women in the groin for that matter, or the open throat, or many other targets. It's mutual respect for your training partner that you train according to the rules as set down by the instructor. It's not a matter of physical self-control, but personal, emotional self-control.

Sparring is not street fighting, when you train with sparring you have rules established for both what will be considered a 'good' shot and what is considered 'not appropriate'. As long as both sides know and agree to the rules, it's good. I wouldn't get in with someone who had been told the rules and took the approach of "well, I think that should be allowed anyway and you just have to protect yourself". That's not a healthy training environment, it's an opportunity for injury, as well as loss of trust, loss of respect...and ultimately loss of people willing to train with you

For what it's worth my instructor new a guy who lost a testicle on an *accidental* shot to the groin even when wearing protection, simply because it had slipped a little and the testicle got caught and pinched when the strike landed.

[Sam]

it is still dis-honorable to try that with full power.

I NEVER said full power. I said with CONTROL.

[ChrisWTK]

If the instructor says you shouldn't do it in class, you shouldn't do it in class, same as hitting women in the chest, or hitting women in the groin for that matter, or the open throat, or many other targets. It's mutual respect for your training partner that you train according to the rules as set down by the instructor. It's not a matter of physical self-control, but personal, emotional self-control.
Do you view me as some unruly teen who has a blatent disreguard for authority?

Sparring is not street fighting, when you train with sparring you have rules established for both what will be considered a 'good' shot and what is considered 'not appropriate'. As long as both sides know and agree to the rules, it's good. I wouldn't get in with someone who had been told the rules and took the approach of "well, I think that should be allowed anyway and you just have to protect yourself". That's not a healthy training environment, it's an opportunity for injury, as well as loss of trust, loss of respect...and ultimately loss of people willing to train with you

I think you have me misread. I'm not going to class, ignoring the rules and blasting guys in the balls. The comment from my instructor happened after one night when I did make two groin shots. He just mentioned that it was dishonorable to do that. I haven't made anymore kicks to the groin since, in future classes. But the confusion that I have is that people often leave it open and in that case why isn't focus put on protecting it? Obviously this really only applies to people training for self defense purposes not for sport.
If you go back to my head example, if the rules say that strikes to the head aren't allowed then I'll start developing a habit of letting my guard down because I know I don't need to protect it. Now I don't want to find out that I'm leaving my head open for attack if I get attacked in the street. Likewise, you're not going to be able to tell an attacker that groin shots are off limits.
I understand rules are there to create a safe environment to train so I guess groin shots are just another dirty tactic you can't do.

[mantis]

I'd call that negligance and find another instructor, someone is going to get seriously hurt...
I think the same right after getting hit. great minds think alike dont they?

[mantis]

I NEVER said full power. I said with CONTROL.
I am only agreeing with you ma'am

[FearlessFreep]

OK, backtrack a bit

*IF* your instructor is saying "Don't use groin shots in sparring because they are a dishonarable way to spar, then don't do it. If 'the guys' are leaving it open in sparring, it's because they know that it is not a legitmate target. Knowing what is allowed and what is not will alter your sparring style. A TKDist, sparring under WTF rules, is not going to be block low leg shots because those are not legitimate shots under that rule set. In point sparring in TKD, it's legal to punch to the head, in WTF rules, it's illegal to even fake a punch to the head (iirc), different set of sparring rules that you will see cause people to set up differently and move differently. It is what it is and you play by the rules. As I said, simply to respect the instructor or whomever has established the rules, and to respect the other partners who are sparring by the rules. I guess the reason I say all that is because in your original post you say "guys are leaving that shot open" but also "the instructor has said not to use that shot" (I'm just paraphrasing). I would think the reason the guys are leaving it open is that the rules of the sparring mean they can so in the context of sparring, that's not something they are worried about. Most of what I've seen is that faking illegal shots in sparring is considered bad form. So don't be to hard on the guys : ) for leaving that shot open. Yes, people should learn to guard vital areas, but if the sparring rules don't allow shots to those areas, *shrug* they are probably not going to protect them very well.

On the other hand, if our instructor has said that groin shots are dishonorable in life, then that's a more serious issue because you have to make an ethical decision. Do *you* think they are dishonarable? Would you use them if you felt you needed to? If you say 'yes' then you have to ask if your instructor's teaching style, both technique and ethics, is detrimental to your use of martial arts for personal self-preservation, and if that is the case then you need to ask if your current training is something you should continue in.

So back to your original question/statement. If you say you have a habit of going for groin shots because they are left open and your instructor has established that those shots are not legal/allowable, then that is your lack of control, as you asked. Just as it was my 11 yo daughters lack of control when, in her first tournament, and under WTF sparring rules, she kept punching her opponent in the head/face. OK, I'll commend her for having the willingess to punch someone in the face when realizing it was open, but *under the rules she was sparring in*, those were not allowed strikes, so naturally they were more open and it was her own lack of self-control in not being self-concious of the situation in using illegal shots. Yes, one would hope in a real situation that her opponents would guard there face, but in that context, that was not something they were guarding against, so they didn't; people tend to be very focused in sparring, focused on protecting allowed target areas and hitting allowed target areas and consequently, they don't tend to guard disallowed target areas. I mean, good grief, boxers don't guard their groin or guard against knee strikes because the rules of their interaction don't allow those attacks. If a boxer strikes low, is the reaction "the other guy should've been guarding against it" or "that was an illegal shot"

But if you think groin shots should be allowed in sparring (and I really don't have an opinion on that so I'm not criticizing anyone who thinks they should be allowed), then you need to find a context in which they are allowed for sparring. I did some free style sparring with a guy where the only rule was "light contact...nobody gets hurt" and at one point I was behind him tapping his ribs/kidneys and I remarked "that's to let you know I would be punching you hard in the ribs". Later he was on top of me and he swung his elbow hard toward my crotch. He stopped short and said "that's to let you know you should've worn a cup!" I had no problem with him doing that because what he did was allowed within the rules of our sparring at that point in time. However, if we were doing wtf rules sparring and someone front kicked me in he groin deliberately, that would upset me quite a bit.

I've trained places that incorporated groin shots as part of self-defense so I have no ethical problem with it. If you thikn it should be allowed in sparring to make people aware of protecting it and to allow practice at making that shot, then you need to find a context in which it is allowed, but if it's not allowed under the current rules you are sparring in, then don't be too hard on people who leave it open, and don't take the shot

[matt.m]

it is still dis-honorable to try that with full power. You are assuming they have some sort of a protective cup, which may not necessarily be true. Usually try to avoid hitting the vital areas regardless which part of the body they are. in a real-life self defense situation those are your goals so figure a balance between training to hit those points and not actually hitting them in training.

BTW, i have an instructor that does not save a chance when it comes to kicking the groin. If he sees your groin open he'd knee it as hard as you can "so you remember to protect it" he says!

That kneeing to the groining business is for the birds. It is negligent as well. Go find a new teacher. This guy sounds like the instructor from the karate kid.

[ChrisWTK]

Ok I think the difference between you, FrearlessFreep and me is that you're training for sport, while I'm training for self defense. You're taking TKD which does a lot of competitions and has set rules to follow, I take kempo, which the only competition sparring we do is point sparring, but we don't actually practice that in class. In class the rules for sparring are usually pretty basic. No dirty tactics, which basically is no biting, eye poking, scratching and other stuff like that. Strikes to the throat aren't allowed, but chokes are as well as other grabs. Kicks to the groin aren't encouraged. i haven't been told they're not allowed, i've had instances where the instructor has told students it's they're fault for forgetting to wear a cup if they get hit there(usually that's the younger teens that don't think to wear one, the older students always remember). Strikes to the head are allowed but not to the face unless they're wearing a shield. Any rules put by the instructor is for focus sparring, such as no kicks or no grabs or no ground fighting. The only other rule is respect for your opponent such as light kicks to the knees and be aware of any injuries they might have.

Otherwise I agree with what you said. Like I said, I haven't taken the shot since I was warned and I think my school fits with me and I'm getting what I want out of it.

[Andrew Green]

I'd much rather get blasted hard in the face then moderately in the groin, and as far as self-defence goes I think it is far more likely people will be trying to blast you in the face then kick you in the groin...

[FearlessFreep]

Ok I think the difference between you, FrearlessFreep and me is that you're training for sport, while I'm training for self defense. You're taking TKD which does a lot of competitions and has set rules to follow, I take kempo, which the only competition sparring we do is point sparring, but we don't actually practice that in class

Not quite :) I used to take Taekwondo so I'm more familiar with the formal sparring rules, but the Taekwondo I trained in was very self-defense oriented. And I have since switched to a Hapkido based training for the reason that it was harder to find a self-defense oriented Taekwondo school then a self-defense oriented Hapkido school (should probably update my profile : ). But I happen to be aware of the rules for Taekwondo sparring (both wtf and point) so I use those as illustrations of how to approach legal and illegal techniques, and how that will affect how you defend yourself when in a given rule set.

I also have learned self defense techniques involving shots to the groin. And yes, I always wear a cup when sparring because accidents do happen, so I would not suspect a partner of trying that, but it could happen accidentally pretty easily.

After re-reading your initial post, I guess you didn't say that kicks to the groin were not disallowed, but that your instructor has said they are 'not honorable' I guess that's a fine line; I would not do aything in class that my instructor had said was not honorable, even if he had not said it was not allowed. This is where it comes down to 'respect' for your training partners, and the respect you want them to have for you. If you do something that is technically allowed but which your instructor has not is 'dishonorable' then you risk losing the respect of your training partnersand that's something you really don't want to have happen.

[FearlessFreep]

as far as self-defence goes I think it is far more likely people will be trying to blast you in the face then kick you in the groin...

that makes sense. The SD techniques I've learned involving shots to the groin have all been in very close quarter situations where you are being grabbed or controlled someway and you are trying to distract them to get a release some other way. Not open fighting where I would throw a kick there or something

[Swordlady]

Ok I think the difference between you, FrearlessFreep and me is that you're training for sport, while I'm training for self defense. You're taking TKD which does a lot of competitions and has set rules to follow.

If I remember correctly from my TKD days, there was a great deal of emphasis on self-defense. And most of us in the dojang never participated in tournaments. Just to let you know. :)

[ChrisWTK]

If I remember correctly from my TKD days, there was a great deal of emphasis on self-defense. And most of us in the dojang never participated in tournaments. Just to let you know. :)

hehe, you would know, I've never taken TKD. I was only basing my assumption on other sources and from what FearlessFreep had said. To me it just sounded like rules upon rules, limiting you to only certain attacks, which in my opinion isn't realistic fighting, it's sport.

[mantis]

I'd call that negligance and find another instructor, someone is going to get seriously hurt...
well what do you say about this (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/kungfuteacher.html)?

[Carol]

I'm getting the impression that groin shots are not specifically verboten in the sparring rules...or perhaps the school doesn't have sparring rules at all.

I'll reserve my opinion of the guy for not spelling out the rule if that's the case for another post but...just given the situation, if my instructor toledme that something was dishonourable, that would be something that I would heed, personally.

Sometimes a person can be hit too hard. That is worthy of respect.

[lonecoyote]

Just FYI, in some dojos, being dirty gets dirty, meaning kick me in the nuts and I might be doing something dirty too. Do it a few times and someone's glove might come open and accidentally thumb your eye, or maybe a for real full power reverse punch might come down the pike. Be careful. Treat people how you want to be treated.

[Wing Chun Dummy]

Ok, so durring sparring I have a habbit of going for the groin(against men), it's easy for me to kick there, and I think they leave it open for attack. But my instructor mentioned that it's dishonorable to go for it(while sparring). I have no qualms about going for it in a real situation.

Am I in the wrong and this is a lack of control on my part, or should guys just learn to not leave it open?

I'd say a bit of both. It's dishonourable and a dirty tactic but it sure teaches the opponents a valuable lesson!

[ChrisWTK]

Just FYI, in some dojos, being dirty gets dirty, meaning kick me in the nuts and I might be doing something dirty too. Do it a few times and someone's glove might come open and accidentally thumb your eye, or maybe a for real full power reverse punch might come down the pike. Be careful. Treat people how you want to be treated.

I agree, today I was partnered up with two other girls that train, and we were working different grabs and the instructor said to use our imagination when thinking of various grabs. Well we got very into the hair pulling with a lot of joint locks and small joint manipulation. I got kneed in the goin(thank god I'm not a guy) and even smacked once too. So in my mind it got a little dirty. But if we're learning from the attacks in a friendly manner, I don't mind it.

[monkey]

To bring in a funny veiw of this kick to a sacred spot.Go to metacafe & serch for japanese police vs darth vader.Funny little bit.

[hapki68]

I wish I had seen this thread when it was active, cause it's pretty interesting.

First off, I would be livid if someone kicked me in the balls in class. However, I would definitely want someone to tell me they could have and how to stop it.

Now I'm wondering what the defense is, particularly in hapkido. How would you defend? Chris raises a good point that this is something we all, but guys in particular, need to know.

Also... I'm a blue belt. And we recently learned the technique for getting out of a bear hug where you're facing your opponent and he has your arms held straight down to your sides. You squat down and then drive your fingers straight into his crotch. It works like a charm. Of course, we were all careful not to do it too hard or in the wrong place -- like directly into the balls instead of the joint between the leg and thigh. So this is an example of going for the groin in class. My Master's view is that you need to experience a little bit of pain in each move to know exactly what it feels like so you know how the technique works and how to inflict it on your opponent without hurting him or her.

So a very very controlled kick into the general vicinity perhaps should be allowed.

Patrick

[monkey]

Here is 1 way-Not mine but Ive seen in the shaolin temple while I trained,There was 1 student for Iron body-throat-stomach-eyes-vital points-even the groing.I found out later -He had some skill shown to him of (how to retract the groing into the body.)I dont know how & I dont want to know.What I will say is for every action is equal opisite reaction.Yes iron palm is good for tempering(but on the reaction-too mauch ,the hand breaks down & arthritis sets in or some deformities)I dont even want to think of the retractalbe for reaction.I do have films on this as I was at the temple & all done was filmed.We were under High Tang Fashu.

[fireman00]

Sorry to disagree, but kicking someone in the groin is a pure and simple cheap shot. Are folks allowed thumb gouges to the eyes or punch to the throat while sparring?

I spar under AAU, ITF and WTF (Olympic) sparring rules and shots to the groin are NOT legal.

What styles allow groin shots? What isn't allowed while sparring?

In reality; during a confrontation if the shot's there - take it.

[Nevada_MO_Guy]

In class the rules for sparring are usually pretty basic. No dirty tactics, which basically is no biting, eye poking, scratching and other stuff like that. Strikes to the throat aren't allowed, but chokes are as well as other grabs. Kicks to the groin aren't encouraged. i haven't been told they're not allowed, i've had instances where the instructor has told students it's they're fault for forgetting to wear a cup if they get hit there(usually that's the younger teens that don't think to wear one, the older students always remember).
Groin attacks are very effective and should be a valid target in self defense training.

If your instructor mentioned that it is dishonorable during sparring for groin shots...he might be wanting you to try other techniques more, than just relying on the groin shots.

My school uses cups. Groin kicks, grabs, pulls, pokes, slaps etc... are just part of the style and is expected. No big deal.

Sounds like your school is a little "if'y" on using groin shots for sparring, if I were you I would "if" on the side of taking groin shots. That would help your fellow students to get use to protecting attacks to the groin more and make you even more comfortable in using a groin attack, if necessary, for self defense.

However if your instructor says to stop kicking the groin during sparring, then it is a mute point.

[mantis]

Sorry to disagree, but kicking someone in the groin is a pure and simple cheap shot. Are folks allowed thumb gouges to the eyes or punch to the throat while sparring?

I spar under AAU, ITF and WTF (Olympic) sparring rules and shots to the groin are NOT legal.

What styles allow groin shots? What isn't allowed while sparring?

In reality; during a confrontation if the shot's there - take it.
you're absolutely right. groin kicks are cheap shots in a game.
but why do we spar, and why do we practice fighting? to learn from our mistakes and to change our old habits. when you spar you will only learn to keep your hands up when you get hit in the face. same applies to groin, you will not learn how to protect your groin unless you get hit.

[Nevada_MO_Guy]

when you spar you will only learn to keep your hands up when you get hit in the face.
I still have problems with this. Had to get sports glasses because my other glasses kept getting bent. :btg:

[hapki68]

I hope this isn't a dumb question... but does the debate on this issue partly have something to do with your view of sparring? I get the feeling that different arts and different schools spar in different ways.

For example, hapkido doesn't have competitions because it's too dangerous. I'm not sure if we spar as aggressively as someone in, say, TKD or judo would, since they seem more set up to handle sparring and competition.

We sort of spar in my school.. but it's more like we start wrestling a bit and then set each other up for a wrist lock or throw. I'm not sure it's real sparring... so I picture a groin kick in the same way I do how we handle throat strikes. We sort of go to that area... but stop short of the real thing.

Does this make sense or am I way off base? Maybe sparring is generally the same everywhere.

Patrick

[Wing Chun Dummy]

Now I'm wondering what the defense is...

In Jeet June Do they have one hand guarding down there.

In Wing Chun we normally put the knee in the way because it would break our structure to bend down and defend a groin kick with the hands, but there is the option of gum sau (like a downwards palm strike, diagonally pushing the kick to the ground). Interception is normally best though - just drive in with your stance (your wing chun arrow stance) and the centre line deflection normally takes care of things, groin is guarded by the inwards turned knee, and u can close them down so u can punch them in the face and finish things fast.

[ChrisWTK]

I hope this isn't a dumb question... but does the debate on this issue partly have something to do with your view of sparring? I get the feeling that different arts and different schools spar in different ways.

Not a dumb question...but I think you're right. I guess I wanted to know if other people agreed with me. Based on the responses, it seems to me it varies on the person and the style they are in.


For example, hapkido doesn't have competitions because it's too dangerous. I'm not sure if we spar as aggressively as someone in, say, TKD or judo would, since they seem more set up to handle sparring and competition.

I think this is true for Kempo also. If we do competition sparring, it's just point sparring. In that case it's just a game of who can hit who first and the target is only the chest and sides of the head. Groin and face are penalty shots. But if you've got to limit so much of what you can do, then it's just a competition for sport purposes, it's not going to get you where you need to be self defense wise.


I was also thinking, I know how people say that 'in a real sitituation I would use it but never in sparring/class.' I've read an instructor's essay on techniques where he emphasized practicing moves to build muscle memory so your body will naturally do them when put into that situation. Well if I'm practicing moves that include groin shots, then shouldn't it be a natural thing to do that?

[Carol]

I was also thinking, I know how people say that 'in a real sitituation I would use it but never in sparring/class.' I've read an instructor's essay on techniques where he emphasized practicing moves to build muscle memory so your body will naturally do them when put into that situation. Well if I'm practicing moves that include groin shots, then shouldn't it be a natural thing to do that?

Earlier in your post you mentioned that you do not take this strike with women, you only take this strike with men. If muscle memory is key, then it follows logically that this is a strike you should take with both genders.

It would be safer to practice this strike with women.

I'm not an expert in the area of protection, but I do not think all cups are created equally. If you really want to get in groin strikes, see if you can do that with a guy that is willing to wear a heavy duty cup. Or, see if kicking the guy in the lower abs instead of dead on the groin is an option...esp. if you have a fellow that is willing to wear a boxing-style groin guard.

Or, consider investing in a BOB where you can practice all kinds of strikes, including groin strikes.

Groin strikes can be a funny thing in real-life situations. In the heat of battle, it may not have a predictable effect, and the effects may not always show immediately at the time of impact. The same biology that makes the area sensitive can also make it unpredictable when done live.

That's not to say that groin strikes shouldn't be considered...but they shouldn't necessarily the focus point of your response.

Your instructor may also have some additional ideas as to how you can practice in a way that is safer as well.

[hapki68]

Believe me... I'm the last person on the planet who would ever advocate a kick to the "boys." Let me be clear: I completely oppose actually hitting them in class, just as I do an actual throat strike.

But I do think schools should practice the move for blocking a groin kick (which was one of the first moves we learned) since it's a technique both guys and girls grow up knowing they can/should use on a guy.

Because of this thread, I asked my instructor last night how to block a groin kick. His first comment was "step back." I think he was being sarcastic, but it's still good advice. Then, he showed me two moves for blocking. (Thanks, Wing Chun, for your suggestions.) My instructor said you can block the kick with a downward palm strike, which could hurt your wrist. Or, you extend both arms downward, palms down and wrists crossed over each other to form an X at your wrist. You block the kick between your hands at the wrist. We use a similar technique to block strikes. I'm sure there are better techniques, though, cause using the X-hand thing would leave your upper body open to a smack up side the head.

Patrick

[ChrisWTK]

Earlier in your post you mentioned that you do not take this strike with women, you only take this strike with men. If muscle memory is key, then it follows logically that this is a strike you should take with both genders.

Hehe, I actually just realized that I haven't sparred with any other women. There's no other girls in my dojo at my level. :(


It would be safer to practice this strike with women.

I don't think that's necessarily true.


I'm not an expert in the area of protection, but I do not think all cups are created equally. If you really want to get in groin strikes, see if you can do that with a guy that is willing to wear a heavy duty cup. Or, see if kicking the guy in the lower abs instead of dead on the groin is an option...esp. if you have a fellow that is willing to wear a boxing-style groin guard.

Or, consider investing in a BOB where you can practice all kinds of strikes, including groin strikes.

If I want to practice groin strikes I'll kick a pad, not a person. BOB is fun to work with, although he doesn't have a groin.


Groin strikes can be a funny thing in real-life situations. In the heat of battle, it may not have a predictable effect, and the effects may not always show immediately at the time of impact. The same biology that makes the area sensitive can also make it unpredictable when done live.

That's not to say that groin strikes shouldn't be considered...but they shouldn't necessarily the focus point of your response.

I agree, there are many conditions when a guy might not feel a kick to the groin. So it's there to use, but defiently shouldn't be the focus. I've read that sometimes it's best to just do it anyway whether it hurts them or not cause it'll cause the response of bending forward, which is usually what you want for the rest of the attack.

[Carol]

Regarding the groin strikes with women, Everlast makes a groin guard for women that protects the groin and kidneys. I recently purchased one for myself and would strongly recommend it.

That's not to say that you can't cause injury...no protector is perfect, but women at least have our pelvic bone protecting our vital organs. Men do not.

Bummer you don't have any females at your level :(

If I want to practice groin strikes I'll kick a pad, not a person. BOB is fun to work with, although he doesn't have a groin.




I agree, there are many conditions when a guy might not feel a kick to the groin. So it's there to use, but defiently shouldn't be the focus. I've read that sometimes it's best to just do it anyway whether it hurts them or not cause it'll cause the response of bending forward, which is usually what you want for the rest of the attack.

Agreed, and I'm short ;)

Have you seen the new BOB? I wasn't kidding when I said he could be used for groin strikes :D

http://www.karatesupply.com/bob_wgroin.htm

[matt.m]

You know if it is a fight then there are no rules. If there are rules then a gymnasium is somehow involved.

In a fight a goin or breast shot is not off limits. In sparring striking hard to the boys or girls is uncalled for. Furthermore, if you do that more than once no one will want to workout with you.

[ChrisWTK]

See you guys can take shots to the groin...it's all about training.
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/2006/06/groin.html
(viewer discretion is advised)

[Marginal]

That only works if you can reel 'em into the body. If you get caught by surprise... All the ground flattening in the world isn't gonna help you.

Really, in a SD situation, if I'm dancing around playing nut tag, something's gone seriously wrong.

[pstarr]

I agree. We allow it in my school although contact isn't permitted, just as contact to other vital points isn't allowed.

But if your instructor says that it isn't permitted within the school, you must follow his call.

[Touch Of Death]

Ok, so durring sparring I have a habbit of going for the groin(against men), it's easy for me to kick there, and I think they leave it open for attack. But my instructor mentioned that it's dishonorable to go for it(while sparring). I have no qualms about going for it in a real situation.

Am I in the wrong and this is a lack of control on my part, or should guys just learn to not leave it open?Where is the dishonor?

[ChrisWTK]

Where is the dishonor?

Cause it's a cheap shot.

The question is are you sparing with rules or not? Some styles aren't as strict with the rules durring sparring(in class, not tournament), such as kempo, so groin strikes are allowed, but a certain amount of respect must be given towards your opponent. For example, instead of just kicking them there, just give them a light tap to let them know the strike could have been made.

Also different styles, such as TKD, have a specific sparring ruleset that they follow which don't allow certain strikes, so in my opinion, training with rules that limit you doesn't really train you for real life application only tournament.

[matt.m]

Dude, groin shots are cheap. Plus, you do that to your partner then you will run out of partners quickly. Just my opinion. I was in TKD class and this idiot got a couple quick shots. Never acted with any remorse about the deal so he got a couple of ridge hands to the side of the head and a front upraising kick.

I have been in hand to hand combat oversees. I have a definitive line of what I find acceptable and where.

Sorry, a lot of people say "In a real fight...this and that, etc." Sorry, I did riot control and house to house fighting in Haiti circa 1994 lasting four months. I have been to Liberia, Tunsia, and Albania, as well as Bosnia twice during my time in the Marine Corps. Oh, by the way, I have also seen my share of bar fights as well.

Sorry for the rant. I just think that in a controlled environment it is crap to blast people in tender areas.

[Zoran]

Dude, groin shots are cheap.

It is only cheap if there are rules against it. In my school, groin shots are allowed and expected. We are all on the same page on this. But we do not "blast" anyone in sparring period. Be it in the groin, face or body.

So saying groin shots are cheap is a bunch of crap. It is only cheap depending on the rules you are sparring under. The same can be said if I was in a TKD tournament and took someone to the ground with a take down. That would be cheap also since it would be against the rules.

Now if you say it is still cheap even if the rules allow for it, then my suggestion is learn to protect your groin better.

[Touch Of Death]

Dude, groin shots are cheap. Plus, you do that to your partner then you will run out of partners quickly. Just my opinion. I was in TKD class and this idiot got a couple quick shots. Never acted with any remorse about the deal so he got a couple of ridge hands to the side of the head and a front upraising kick.

I have been in hand to hand combat oversees. I have a definitive line of what I find acceptable and where.

Sorry, a lot of people say "In a real fight...this and that, etc." Sorry, I did riot control and house to house fighting in Haiti circa 1994 lasting four months. I have been to Liberia, Tunsia, and Albania, as well as Bosnia twice during my time in the Marine Corps. Oh, by the way, I have also seen my share of bar fights as well.

Sorry for the rant. I just think that in a controlled environment it is crap to blast people in tender areas.Wouldn't it be helping your partners to let them know they are leaving themselves open? You want them to succeed in possible street combat, don't you? They are your friends.
sean

[Marginal]

Wouldn't it be helping your partners to let them know they are leaving themselves open? Given how much incidental contact etc happens around the region already, it's not like people are unaware that there are holes there, or that they do in fact, need to defend the area even without people "doing them favors".

[pstarr]

The key word is control. We allow kicking to the groin but it must be properly controlled and pulled short of contact.

To disallow groin kicking makes as much sense as to disallow punches to the head. Before long, everyone's hands start dropping down.

Students must learn to keep the lower gate closed and how to protect it but it has to be practiced safely.

[karateka]

Ok, so durring sparring I have a habbit of going for the groin(against men), it's easy for me to kick there, and I think they leave it open for attack. But my instructor mentioned that it's dishonorable to go for it(while sparring). I have no qualms about going for it in a real situation.

Am I in the wrong and this is a lack of control on my part, or should guys just learn to not leave it open?


see the thing here is, almost anywhere you hit, you will cause damamge but it will heal. however if you kick a mans groin, it can cause some serious damage even if the attack is light (ask any man how much even a light hit hurts). real life is ok, but in the dojo, these guys are innocent and ive known people to get kicks to the groin and spend a good few hours on the floor, and some people get infertility issues. after all, you wouldnt want to get infertile during sparring would you?

in real life situations, go for the groin or the eyes (eyes too have poor regenerative abilities)

[Wing Chun Dummy]

some people get infertility issues. after all, you wouldnt want to get infertile during sparring would you?

in real life situations, go for the groin or the eyes (eyes too have poor regenerative abilities)

i agree with this completely. eyes and groin are best targets - but definitely not what u should practice with in training! - it's like taking a persons life - u do it when u really need to, but u hope u never will need to - and certainly don't do it for practice

[Blindside]

Wow, talk about completely different mentalities....

I've been in kenpo for 10 years now, and 2 years of kajukenbo before that. Groin contact is EXPECTED in sparring (and for every kenpo school I've visited), because of this expectation it is not "cheap." It is a completely legit shot. In self defense techniques, some contact is expected if part of the move involves a groin strike, we don't do "air kenpo." Needless to say, cups are mandatory at our school and its advised that the woman wear protection as well.

Incidentally the tournaments around here all use groin as an open target, which can cause havoc for guys who aren't used to the ruleset.

Lamont

[RachelK]

I've been in kenpo for 10 years now, and 2 years of kajukenbo before that. Groin contact is EXPECTED in sparring (and for every kenpo school I've visited), because of this expectation it is not "cheap." It is a completely legit shot. In self defense techniques, some contact is expected if part of the move involves a groin strike, we don't do "air kenpo." Needless to say, cups are mandatory at our school and its advised that the woman wear protection as well.
Let's hope that all your students walk around with cups and chest protectors at all times. If you are training for self-defense and not sport, taking hits to an area protected by a cup or chest protector doesn't give you a good sense of what it's really like to be hit there. Pain is a message from your body, it's telling you "next time, better get the hell out of the way of the incoming!". Without that message, it is possible that some students will become complacent. Not all, but some.
I think training should be as close to reality as we can get without injuring ourselves. That's why I wear the same shoes I generally wear on the street and do not pad myself out with all kinds of protective gear (or any kind of protection, for that matter.) However, I will add that our class emphasizes precision and control, we take strikes to the head, but we don't KO each other (usually). With padding, it is possible to go a bit harder and faster, however, I feel that it's more realistic not to wear protection. But some people would call it a tradeoff, 6 of one, half-dozen of the other.
What do the rest of you think about wearing cups and other kinds of protection? Does it make it more realistic because you can hit harder? Or less so because one doesn't walk around all the time wearing cups and pads?
Just curious. Thanks,
Rachel

[ChrisWTK]

What do the rest of you think about wearing cups and other kinds of protection? Does it make it more realistic because you can hit harder? Or less so because one doesn't walk around all the time wearing cups and pads?

Wow, finally somebody who I agree with. I shudder at the thought when some people sugggest sparring in redman suits.

[Marginal]

What do the rest of you think about wearing cups and other kinds of protection? Does it make it more realistic because you can hit harder? Or less so because one doesn't walk around all the time wearing cups and pads?
Just curious. Thanks,
RachelIncidence of contact's way higher on the training floor vs anywhere else.

[hongkongfooey]

Let's hope that all your students walk around with cups and chest protectors at all times. If you are training for self-defense and not sport, taking hits to an area protected by a cup or chest protector doesn't give you a good sense of what it's really like to be hit there. Pain is a message from your body, it's telling you "next time, better get the hell out of the way of the incoming!". Without that message, it is possible that some students will become complacent. Not all, but some.
I think training should be as close to reality as we can get without injuring ourselves. That's why I wear the same shoes I generally wear on the street and do not pad myself out with all kinds of protective gear (or any kind of protection, for that matter.) However, I will add that our class emphasizes precision and control, we take strikes to the head, but we don't KO each other (usually). With padding, it is possible to go a bit harder and faster, however, I feel that it's more realistic not to wear protection. But some people would call it a tradeoff, 6 of one, half-dozen of the other.
What do the rest of you think about wearing cups and other kinds of protection? Does it make it more realistic because you can hit harder? Or less so because one doesn't walk around all the time wearing cups and pads?
Just curious. Thanks,
Rachel


Training as realistic as possible would require wearing a cup. Being kicked while wearing a box does produce pain. Cups shift, lift up, and sometimes break. I've had bruises from being kicked in the groin while wearing a box. I've been sick to my stomach after a good shot to the stones, even while wearing a cup. You learn to deal with it. We don't have to wear padding at my school. Though, a cup and mouth piece is required. We spar hard contact and all targets are legal, except for throat.

I train at a Kenpo school, too. At my school we don't fight the air, we are expected to make contact that is appropriate to the area being attacked.
That means sore muscles, bruises, contusions, sometimes a little blood, painful joints, etc.

Being hit in the jimmies is not a cheap shot. The idea is survival. What is the point of advocating certain attacks if they are not being worked on a live body.

[Touch Of Death]

I feel the belief that groin shots are cheap will cause an unwarranted emotional response when it happens. When you become angry or want to retaliate in some way because your opponent crossed some imaginary line, you are the one taken out of time. You should not only expect it but want them to try it.
Sean