I've practiced Goju and seen some Shorin. I recently commented to someone that, despite the fact that Goju means hard and soft, I find it harder and so more similar to Shotokan than Shorin, which I find softer. Would others agree? My Shorin knowledge is somewhat meager.

I should say that I felt constrained to use these two as comparisons, and overall I don't find Goju nearly as hard as Shotokan or even all that similar to it; Goju has lots of circular movements, and soft kata like Tesnho. It was a relative comparison of Shorin and Goju.

I had a friend whose father had black belts in both Goju and shotokan. He said that Goju was softer and more flexible(in terms of using both hard and soft instead of just hard). One must remember that Goju is a Karate, therefore mostly comes from the Okanowin Te style and that Shorin is a kempo which is a style of fung fu with a lot more chinese influence. This could explian the differnence, maybe Goju is considered "soft" for a karate style while Shorin is in a different group all together.

Tony

I have always been intrested in Goju Ryu. how does it differ from say Okinawa Kempo. I know the kata's are different, but what else makes it different.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by tmanifold

...... He said that Goju was softer and more flexible(in terms of using both hard and soft instead of just hard). One must remember that Goju is a Karate, therefore mostly comes from the Okanowin Te style.......


Uh........please look at the history of Goju a little closer and you can find it came from China and not too long ago at that.


Originally posted by tmanifold

...... and that Shorin is a kempo which is a style of fung fu with a lot more chinese influence. This could explian the differnence, maybe Goju is considered "soft" for a karate style while Shorin is in a different group all together.

Actually Shorin has more of a connection and influence from Okinawa te.

The hardness and softness are influenced more by the practitioner/teacher than anything else.

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I have always been intrested in Goju Ryu. how does it differ from say Okinawa Kempo. I know the kata's are different, but what else makes it different.
Bob :asian:


My teacher had 3 main teachers and one of them was Nakamura Shigeru the founder of Okinawa Kempo.
The katas are the main difference, also full contact sparring is done in Okinawa Kempo, Kobudo is also more emphasized.

Actually, the shuri-te development into Shorin-Ryu ( Young Forest Style) was a more speedier and offensive system; while the naha- te development into Goju-Ryu system was more forceful and defensive. Naha-te emphasized more soft techniques and taoist breathing philosophy. Shuri-te is believed to have derived from Shaolin Kenpo. One of the first Shuri-te practitioners was Shinjo Choken in the (late 1600-early 1700's), which started the historical beginnings the of Shorin-Ryu style. Next, considered the first true teacher of okinawan karate was Tode Sakugawa; who's style was a mixture of Chinese Kenpo and Shuri-te. In 1756 Tode Sakugawa became the student of the well known Kenpo Master, Kusanku. Next comes Sakugawa's most noted student of Sokon Matsumura. Sokon Bushi Matsumura studied the teachings of Sakugawa's Shuri-te, Chinese Kenpo, and Kusanku Kenpo mixture; until 1830 when he traveled to China himself to study the Shaolin style of Chinese Kenpo and Weaponry.
So, it can be safely assumed that the Shorin-Ryu System indeed resulted from the Shaolin Chinese Kenpo Style. For Matsumura Seito, this would be the White Crane Style Of Shaolin Chinese Kenpo, of which i'am a Kinshinkan member! This is also evident in the systems kata (though all the styles of Shorin-Ryu, (matsu, ko, and shobayashi) kata are basically the same) of, Hakutsuru/White Crane (which uses the elements taught in the shaolin chinese kenpo system) and stresses using the Crane's Hane/Wing; Chinto, ( which stresses the White Cranes One Legged Stance); and Gojushiho, (or Fifty- Four Steps Of The Black Tiger, which emphaiszes the using of the Cranes Beak and Neck).
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

Is there a difference in these styles of GoJu?
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Is there a difference in these styles of GoJu?
Bob :asian: If i understand your meaning correctly; there are different derivatives of Goju-Ryu. Yet, the kata, like shorin-ryu are all basically the same and very traditional in dojo execution.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

Chiduce, That was what I meant? Thank You.
Bob:asian:

I think Chinese Goju is the style Ron Vanclef invented. Either that or he is just the most well known. I can't remember.


Tony

VanClief invented it.

Intresting post.
My undestanding is that Go and Ju in the name goju-ryu does not really mean Hard and Soft in the sense that this is how the techniques are done.
In any case, it would be closer to the meaning of go and ju to say strong and gentle (as in pliable). Miyagi Chojun sensei was trying as far as I can tell, to get people to understand the sense of balance one needs to achieve things (in life and in the dojo).
In much the same way as Yin and Yang work together to make a whole, so too do go and ju.
Within each one there is something of the opposit, so we can not see goju in such simplistic terms as hard and soft. Such lines of thought are not unusual when one thinks of goju-ryu's history. Almost every Okinawan karate teacher who was asked to put a name to his style by the Butokukai, came up with a way of discribing this sense of balance, Shito-ryu for example was originaly called Hanko-ryu, meaning Half-hard style.
Also, we should not get hooked on the names people use for their training. I've met many people who say they train in goju-ryu but have little sense of balance (in the bigger sense), and know little of the history of the'tradition' they say they are following.
This does not make them bad people, only ill-educated.

Peace and harmony
Mike Clarke.

Originally posted by Mike Clarke

Almost every Okinawan karate teacher who was asked to put a name to his style by the Butokukai, came up with a way of discribing this sense of balance, Shito-ryu for example was originaly called Hanko-ryu, meaning Half-hard style.

Interesting! I hadn't known that.

Originally posted by arnisador

I've practiced Goju and seen some Shorin. I recently commented to someone that, despite the fact that Goju means hard and soft, I find it harder and so more similar to Shotokan than Shorin, which I find softer. Would others agree? My Shorin knowledge is somewhat meager.

I should say that I felt constrained to use these two as comparisons, and overall I don't find Goju nearly as hard as Shotokan or even all that similar to it; Goju has lots of circular movements, and soft kata like Tesnho. It was a relative comparison of Shorin and Goju.



I am not sure what you mean by "hard" in this case. In Karate as well as Chinese arts hard doesn't mean hard like a rock and soft doesn't mean soft like Jell-O..........
However, in my opinion all Japanese styles (JKA,JKF, Wado, Shotokan, Shotokai) tend to be very "stiff" and unnatural in their movements and rather looked down upon by Okinawan karate teachers.
Most Okinawan styles tend to be less "stiff" and use more circular movements using natural body mechanics.

Goju uses a lot of very circular movements and other Okinawan styles tend to "appear" to be more linear in theirs. I say "appear" to be because in actuality they are applied somewhat differently than they seem to be on the surface.

Osu,

Goju karate ka here.

My own Sensei has been working on finding the ju in Goju. I have heard this from alot of people. It amounts to this. Let's say you spend your life time studying Goju. It is in the latter part say your 40's and 50's if you started young, that you move into the Ju cycle. (He's 37 and has only in the past few years of his 20 in the style starting tapping in the ju aspect of the art.)

My other Sensei who has been training for about 40yrs trained in okinawa and Japan and is 10th Dan in Goju and 10th Dan in Shorin-Ryu. (Legit ranks for any of those wondering, he's amazing....) Shorin does seem softer, esp. being primarily a Goju guy myself. He has found the best balancec in a martial artist I have seen, he can be very hard or very soft, it's an amazing thing to see!

Michael C. Byrd
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

I've heard something similar about Goju before--sanchin for the young and the softer tensho for the older.

Hello all,

I think there may be a bit too much 'generalization' going on here? Just because someone uses a name [goju for example] does not mean they are using the principles of that system. In fact, I would go so far as to say that a huge amount of people training in what they think of as 'Traditional' karate these days are involved with only a fraction of the system they think they're learning.

The kata practised in any particular style is of no significence at all. Shito-ryu, Kyokushin, Wado-ryu and Shotokan, all use kata from the Naha-te tradition, but do they look for Naha-te principles when they train in them, I don't think so?

Tenso kata has more to do with a persons understanding of the 'feeling' of goju-ryu than their age. It is listed at the end on the kata board simply because it requiers years of understanding before the movements can be made to work. Get to it too early and you're simply waving your arms about and giving yourself a sore throat with all that deep breathing. But more importantly, you will not have the skill [experience] to make the principles encoded in the kata work for you against an attacker [not a training partner, thats a different thing alltogether].

As I've said before, those who have a basic understanding of karate will only ever do basic karate, regardless of the kata their doing or the bunkai they practise. Those who have a deeper understanding will have the ability to make even the first kata taught to beginners look like 'advanced' technique.
It's not the kata that's advanced or basic, it's the person doing it.

Styles are a very modern thing and we give them far too much attention these days. I remember Michael's second instructor from his days in England [U.S. Airforce, if I remember correctly?], and yes he was fantastic back then in the early 1980's, so I have no doubt he has matured like a fine wine. He has many senior ranks in different styles, so ask yourself a question. If each style is SO different from the next, how come it's possible for someone to grasp so much in one life time?

I think at a certain level the paths converge and we get back to the way it use to be. As individuals we find our own paths but we're heading in the same direction , so should we wonder that after a certain point is reached, we find we can 'see' our own style in others?

Sanchin done correctly is wonderful at any stage of adulthood, as is Tensho. But neither are worth a Brass Razoo [old Australian term], if there done without the correct understanding.

Peace and love,
Mike

Osu,

I suppose you mean me? (Michael)

Yes, Sensei Hobbs very amazing individual it's like living 50 miles away from a Samurai Warrior.

He is Colonel in the United States Aiforce. Highly ranked in Jujutsu and Iiado as well. It's so hard to drag those things out of him. He is, but he doesn't want you to know kind of thing. very very humble.

Michael C. Byrd
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

Yes Michael I meant you;)

I have a few old magazine articles and photos on Hobbs sensei, If you like I'll make you up a Christmas parcel, just let me know.

Mike.

Osu,

Magazine Articles? jees....it just doesn't end :) I hope you have been receiving my email Sensei Clarke. I've enjoyed the exchange.

Michael C. Byrd
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

Michael,

I take it that's a yes then?

Mike.

Osu,

I'll be emailing the address to you in the next few days. Thanks!

Michael C. Byrd
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

"No worries"!

Originally posted by GojuBujin
Osu,

I suppose you mean me? (Michael)

Yes, Sensei Hobbs very amazing individual it's like living 50 miles away from a Samurai Warrior.

He is Colonel in the United States Aiforce. Highly ranked in Jujutsu and Iiado as well. It's so hard to drag those things out of him. He is, but he doesn't want you to know kind of thing. very very humble.

Michael C. Byrd
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

Hello Mr. Byrd,

Please give my regards to Sensei Hobbs. He was my sensei (gave me my dan grades in Shorin-ryu and Goju-ryu). I lost track of him several years ago. I would be interested in corresponding with him via e-mail, if he is also interested. Please let me know.

Best regards,

Dave Fulton

Osu,

Please email me GojuBujin@inigmasoft.com and i will be more than happy to give you Sensei Hobbs Email Address

Michael C. Byrd
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

I take Seibukan Shorinryu Karate. And it is a pretty hard style. There is very little softness involved.

Originally posted by SRyuFighter
I take Seibukan Shorinryu Karate. And it is a pretty hard style. There is very little softness involved.


You do some of the same kata we do and they have "softness" in them.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
You do some of the same kata we do and they have "softness" in them.


That's true but my point was that it's not like Tai Chi or Aikido.

Originally posted by SRyuFighter
That's true but my point was that it's not like Tai Chi or Aikido.

The actual kata might not be performed like Tai Chi or Aikido however the “tuite” within the kata are performed in a “similar” manner to Aikido and some of the advanced level body movements and strikes are almost identical to TaiChi.

Originally posted by SRyuFighter
That's true but my point was that it's not like Tai Chi or Aikido.

RyuShiKan's point is that you need to stop looking for differences...start looking for similarities and apply those things that are common.

I've seen tons of Aikido in many of the forms I practice (Chinese forms)...

I've seen Naihanchi Shodan movements (and movements from many Okinawan and Japanese karate systems) in our forms, as well...

Many of the movements in forms look like (whatever) but are really (something else)...vary the distance and relationship to your uke and SEE what is right in front of you.

The more you train and compare, the more you will see how much ALIKE the systems are...the real difference is in the training and in the teaching...those who DON'T understand pass on bad information...but it is still there, in your forms, in your drills...just look for it.

:asian:
chufeng

Originally posted by chufeng

Many of the movements in forms look like (whatever) but are really (something else)...vary the distance and relationship to your uke and SEE what is right in front of you.


Kind of like "omote" and "ura".....................

I know that martial arts are related and have similarities. I don't even know how that came into play here. All that I said was that my style of Karate is more of a hard than a soft style. I'm not trying to classify anything it just simply is what it is.

But, just perhaps, you aren't seeing the soft in the hard...the internal in the external...if you always view your art as a "hard" art, you will miss some very important lessons. Just trying to help.

:asian:
chufeng

I am seeing the soft in the hard. It's just not always there. There is not an extravagant amount of soft is all that I'm saying.

I guess it depends on how people define “soft” and “hard”.
If people are talking about hard = stiff like the JKA/JKF type karate I would say I do a soft style.

If people think of soft like some sort Chi Kung looking art I would say I do a “hard” style.

Some of the techniques involved with our kata (Naihanchi, Kusanku, Passai, Seisan etc..) have what would appear to be soft looking techniques but in reality hurt like bloody hell.

Soft doesn’t equal weak

It's never been clear to me why people refer to their karate as 'hard' or 'soft' ?

Karate as I understand it has both elements at work and the balance shifts depanding on the problem you're trying to solve by the attack that's comming at you. A bit harder here, a little softer there. Above all I think the aim is to balance both these elements in such a way as to 'blend' with the attacker.

A lot easier said than done I know. Never the less, such an approach will mean effective technique once the strength of youth has passed.

Karate really is without styles. They exist more for marketing than anything else as far as I'm concerned. If you have a good understanding of ANY form of legitimate karate, then you will have a good grasp of ANY style.

Sure some groups make more of a point on particular things, but this does not mean those things are not found in other types of karate. For example, throwing is not obvious in karate kata, but there are many types of throw and take-downs in karate kata.
This does not make karate into judo or jujitsu. There are may strikes and kicks in aikido, but this does not make it karate.

Different paths, same mountain. I think it's a mistake to limit ones thinking in to styles. If they [styles] have any value then it is only as fingers pointing to the moon.

What was it Bruce said in Enter the Dragon, oh yeh,
"Don't look at the finger, or you'll miss the moon in all it's hevenly glory."
Well something like that anyway.

Mike.

Good post Mike Clarke. Exactly what I was trying to say.

Actually, the shuri-te development into Shorin-Ryu ( Young Forest Style) was a more speedier and offensive system; while the naha- te development into Goju-Ryu system was more forceful and defensive. Naha-te emphasized more soft techniques and taoist breathing philosophy. Shuri-te is believed to have derived from Shaolin Kenpo. One of the first Shuri-te practitioners was Shinjo Choken in the (late 1600-early 1700's), which started the historical beginnings the of Shorin-Ryu style. Next, considered the first true teacher of okinawan karate was Tode Sakugawa; who's style was a mixture of Chinese Kenpo and Shuri-te. In 1756 Tode Sakugawa became the student of the well known Kenpo Master, Kusanku. Next comes Sakugawa's most noted student of Sokon Matsumura. Sokon Bushi Matsumura studied the teachings of Sakugawa's Shuri-te, Chinese Kenpo, and Kusanku Kenpo mixture; until 1830 when he traveled to China himself to study the Shaolin style of Chinese Kenpo and Weaponry.
So, it can be safely assumed that the Shorin-Ryu System indeed resulted from the Shaolin Chinese Kenpo Style. For Matsumura Seito, this would be the White Crane Style Of Shaolin Chinese Kenpo, of which i'am a Kinshinkan member! This is also evident in the systems kata (though all the styles of Shorin-Ryu, (matsu, ko, and shobayashi) kata are basically the same) of, Hakutsuru/White Crane (which uses the elements taught in the shaolin chinese kenpo system) and stresses using the Crane's Hane/Wing; Chinto, ( which stresses the White Cranes One Legged Stance); and Gojushiho, (or Fifty- Four Steps Of The Black Tiger, which emphaiszes the using of the Cranes Beak and Neck).
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

Thank you Chiduce for sticking to the facts. I've heard it before that we need to have a line drawn as to what is imagination and what are the facts. "Guilty", I too have a tendancy for rambling personnal belief and / or opinions into the huge digest of martial arts (karate-do).
Imagination or fact, but I have always been of the belief that back in the day, many (most) of the founding Masters trained and shared in a respectful friendship, their learned fighting / self defense systems and / or styles.
Dare I say, no matter what the name of the style is, we all share a common philosophy; Martial Philosophy would be an interesting topic.

well the style of shorin ryu i study is really quite soft in a lot of ways. i would say we are 50/50 hard to soft.. our hard blocks are mostly actually soft.

we have a few goju kata and well they seem often harder then ours.

well the style of shorin ryu i study is really quite soft in a lot of ways. i would say we are 50/50 hard to soft.. our hard blocks are mostly actually soft.

we have a few goju kata and well they seem often harder then ours.
The uniqueness of GoJu is sometimes misunderstood. Where it starts out hard from Sanchin, it more then redeems itself with Tensho kata. Most karate-ka never fully understand how the GoJu, “hard/soft relate, and so miss the greatness of the art. :asian:

The uniqueness of GoJu is sometimes misunderstood. Where it starts out hard from Sanchin, it more then redeems itself with Tensho kata. Most karate-ka never fully understand how the GoJu, “hard/soft relate, and so miss the greatness of the art. :asian:

Well said. Sadly, many Goju practitioners also miss the proverbial boat when it comes to properly training sanchin and tensho kata. Maybe it is just me, but many here seem to have neglected the obvious when it comes to discussing the hard/soft aspects of karate in general. Here's a brief breakdown of what most students (in our dojo) learn from almost day one: Hard/soft in terms of attacks/strikes= hard against soft (punches,elbows,kicks...against softer areas of body)
Hard/soft in terms of Offensive movement= exhaling while entering/moving into an attackers range/attack. (This is done so as to maintain your stance/breathing if forcefully struck, esp. in the solarplexus) This would be considered a 'hard' attitude.
Defensive movement= Inhaling while retreating/avoiding an attack. Breathing in (soft attitude) brings one out of their rooted stance and also leaves one vulnerable to strikes, but at the same time allows for free movement. This is more emphasized in styles such as Shorin ryu, due to the fact that the majority of its techniques are used to circumvent (cut to the outside) of attacks.
Proper muscular tension in blocking= both hard and soft being used simultaneously. This is something misunderstood and mispracticed by many practioners (from what I have seen over the years-abroad-as well as here in Japan). Looking at sanchin kata as a good example, the blocks are not supposed to be performed with tenseness. The tensing comes in the chest/lat. area at the end of the movement (block) while the arm 'floats' through the block and slightly tenses at the very end. Sorry, this is hard to describe. It must be worked in order to be understood.
Anyway, that is how I view hard/soft training and meaning on one basic level of training.
Hope my ranting and overly simplistic view is found to be useful.
Yoroshiku

Well said. Sadly, many Goju practitioners also miss the proverbial boat when it comes to properly training sanchin and tensho kata. Maybe it is just me, but many here seem to have neglected the obvious when it comes to discussing the hard/soft aspects of karate in general. Here's a brief breakdown of what most students (in our dojo) learn from almost day one: Hard/soft in terms of attacks/strikes= hard against soft (punches,elbows,kicks...against softer areas of body)
Hard/soft in terms of Offensive movement= exhaling while entering/moving into an attackers range/attack. (This is done so as to maintain your stance/breathing if forcefully struck, esp. in the solarplexus) This would be considered a 'hard' attitude.
Defensive movement= Inhaling while retreating/avoiding an attack. Breathing in (soft attitude) brings one out of their rooted stance and also leaves one vulnerable to strikes, but at the same time allows for free movement. This is more emphasized in styles such as Shorin ryu, due to the fact that the majority of its techniques are used to circumvent (cut to the outside) of attacks.
Proper muscular tension in blocking= both hard and soft being used simultaneously. This is something misunderstood and mispracticed by many practioners (from what I have seen over the years-abroad-as well as here in Japan). Looking at sanchin kata as a good example, the blocks are not supposed to be performed with tenseness. The tensing comes in the chest/lat. area at the end of the movement (block) while the arm 'floats' through the block and slightly tenses at the very end. Sorry, this is hard to describe. It must be worked in order to be understood.
Anyway, that is how I view hard/soft training and meaning on one basic level of training.
Hope my ranting and overly simplistic view is found to be useful.
Yoroshiku
Sorry, I got in a hurry and forgot to mention that soft strikes such as the hammer fist and palm heal are generally used against harder areas of an attacker's body/offensive.