Ed Parker and Kicking

[Danjo]

Well, I just watched and old episode of the Lucy Show with Ed Parker as a "Judo Karate" student demonstrating kenpo for Lucy and Viv, Well, he looked pretty good until it came time for him to demonstrate various kicks. MAN his kicks looked bad! I mean, I've seen Ed Parker do some awesome things, but kicking certainly was not forte`. Anyone know why this is? Was it an anatomical thing, or did he just not like kicking?

[bujuts]

I haven't seen the videos myself, and I don't have the privilage of ever having met Ed Parker, let alone train under him. However, I'm a student of a long time student of his, and everything I understand about Ed Parker's kicking was that it was no more than an extension of a natural step.

If looking from the paradigm of the classic four point kicking sequence: lift and aim, extend, retract, set back down (i.e. the classic snap kick), then it looks very odd, and would seem to be ineffective for not emloying the full articulation of the knee. However, I suspect Ed Parker kicked the same that I learned from his student, with proper alignment and the entire mass moving into it - hitting with the truck, and not just a snapping bumper.

Again, it should be taken into consideration that his age did in fact begin to impact his movements. I don't know the year of the video to which you refer, and again I am only conjecturing based on what I've heard about Ed Parker, not from personal experience.

One last note, though, I've NEVER heard anyone say he wasn't effective with his kicks, LOL.

I'm curious to hear more on this subject myself.

Thanks,

Steven Brown
UKF

[stickarts]

I don't have any first hand knowledge of his kicking ability but I do know its tough to judge how effective a kick is until you see it in action on someone! A good kicker is he or she that can land the kick when it counts!

[Kenpodoc]

I've never seen that show. In some of the old film available from the early '60's he kicks very well in a Japanese karate manner. I've not seen him kick in later films. The Lucy show was a comedy so it's certainly is possible he was acting for comedic effect. By the time that show was filmed his study of the CMA had dramatically changed his art. Others might be able to shed light on how this changed his kicking.

Jeff

[jazkiljok]

I've never seen that show. In some of the old film available from the early '60's he kicks very well in a Japanese karate manner. I've not seen him kick in later films. The Lucy show was a comedy so it's certainly is possible he was acting for comedic effect. By the time that show was filmed his study of the CMA had dramatically changed his art. Others might be able to shed light on how this changed his kicking.

Jeff

yes, looks very much like the mitose/chow kicking from the book-- which wasn't that developed back then. parker like chow, got much better as they progressed in their understanding of the arts. Ed Parker had a video tape at the internationals in the mid 80s, going over the rules and such- he demonstrated a blistering front kick that snapped a few two by fours as a way of emphasing the importance of control when aiming at some one's ribcage.

kenpo in general has always been a low kicking system-- it didn't stop ed parker from having his more limber and agile students demonstrate flying high kicks and such. he himself was never shown in pix doing that sort of thing.

so i'd just assume that his kicking became more efficient and effective as his knowledge grew and that he staid within his own abilities (waist high kicks) which complimented his art anyway.

just my observations.

trivia question-- what was the odd thing about the lucy's shows episode title that featured Ed Parker?

[MattJ]

I had a copy of a video that showed Mr. Parker doing some demos from (I assume) the 50's or so. Surprisingly, his kicks were quite good. Fast and head high, even some jumping kicks if I remember correctly.

The video quality was not good, but good enough to see what he was doing. I have not seen the "Lucy" episode referred to here, but I can assure you that Mr. Parker was a pretty good kicker back in the day.

[Doc]

Mr. Parker was an excellent and effective kicker. His personal philosophy did not allow for impractical, and turns out, anatomically incorrect kicks. He used to say, "It makes as much sense to kick to the head of a guy standing up, as it does to drop down to a standing man and punch him in the foot. (This was an inside joke as Mitose had done just that in an improptu demo with some of the Parker's black belts in a visit to Pasadena) Moreover, this was the same philosophy of Ark Wong who also didn't believe in stretching after the age of 10 years old.

[Ray]

He used to say, "It makes as much sense to kick to the head of a guy standing up, as it does to drop down to a standing man and punch him in the foot. (This was an inside joke as Mitose had done just that in an improptu demo with some of the Parker's black belts in a visit to Pasadena) Well, now that you mention it; and I know it's stupid of me to ask; I've seen somewhere, from some group that claims the Mitose lineage, that this was a nerve strike (supposedly to some nerve in the foot). Now, I'm certain that that's a goofy explanation...can you clear that up for me (I'm assuming that you were one of the observers)? Thanks in advance.

[Doc]

Well, now that you mention it; and I know it's stupid of me to ask; I've seen somewhere, from some group that claims the Mitose lineage, that this was a nerve strike (supposedly to some nerve in the foot). Now, I'm certain that that's a goofy explanation...can you clear that up for me (I'm assuming that you were one of the observers)? Thanks in advance.
Not stupid at all, and a fair question. I've heard the same explanation but that's a suspect answer. The scenario was set up by Mitose when he suggested he was going to show a 'secret' technique, and asked a black belt to throw a punch at him. When the guy did, Motose igored the knee that was right in his face and fropped to one knee and punched toward the foot with a loud kiai. It was so stupid everyone just looked at each other in silence, while Parker schrugged his shoulders and just went back into the office.

Are there nerves in the foot? Absolutely, but there are better ways and circumstances to strike them much better than putting your head at knee height of a committed and punching attacker.

"What a maroon." - Bugs Bunny

[Danjo]

Mr. Parker was an excellent and effective kicker. His personal philosophy did not allow for impractical, and turns out, anatomically incorrect kicks. He used to say, "It makes as much sense to kick to the head of a guy standing up, as it does to drop down to a standing man and punch him in the foot. (This was an inside joke as Mitose had done just that in an improptu demo with some of the Parker's black belts in a visit to Pasadena) Moreover, this was the same philosophy of Ark Wong who also didn't believe in stretching after the age of 10 years old.

Doc,

I had a video tape of Mr. Parker teaching a seminar in Hawaii where he told the students, "I may not be able to kick very well, but I can teach YOU how to kick very well." Maybe he was exaggerating his lack of kicking ability. The Lucy Show that I am refering to was perhaps not his best example of kicking ability, but when I watched it, I thought I finally saw what he'd been talking about when he said that to those students. Especially when he demonstrated his spinning back kick. Clearly you've seen much more of Mr. Parker's abilities than I have so I'm in no way trying to dispute what you are saying about what you've seen. My comments were based soley on what I had seen in the tape and put together with what I had heard him say himself on another tape. I am not trying to bash on Mr. Parker's abilities in general (which would make me look rather foolish) and mean no disrespect. I was merely curious about what I had seen.

[Seig]

I had a video tape of Mr. Parker teaching a seminar in Hawaii where he told the students, "I may not be able to kick very well, but I can teach YOU how to kick very well."
If you examine this statement, it may not mean that Mr. Parker did not kick very well at all. It seems to me that this is more of a statement on being able to teach. Regardless of your own personal strengths or weaknesses, an instructor should be able to teach their students to do things well, even if they don't do them that well themselves.

[Brian Jones]

I don't know. If you ask teh senoirs who practiced with Mr. Parker and were kicked into rank by him, I think they would say Mr. Parker knew how to kick. At least I never heard any of them say they "enjoyed" the experience. He may not be doing hapkido kicks to the head, but I have seen plenty of photos of guys being launched by one of his kicks.

Brian Jones

[Danjo]

I don't know. If you ask teh senoirs who practiced with Mr. Parker and were kicked into rank by him, I think they would say Mr. Parker knew how to kick. At least I never heard any of them say they "enjoyed" the experience. He may not be doing hapkido kicks to the head, but I have seen plenty of photos of guys being launched by one of his kicks.

Brian Jones

Look, it was my impression that in the early days martial artists would agree to guest star on tv shows using their own names in order to both provide the shows with martial artists that could show the art, and also to get a wider audience and advertisement for their art. As such, whether it was Bruce Tegner, Bruce Lee, or Ed Parker, it was my impression that they would be trying to show off in a way that would attract students. It didn't look like Mr. Parker was clowning around except for his trying to dazzle Lucy with the techniques and have her react with crosseyed bewilderment.

Perhaps someone here could direct me to a clip that shows Mr. Parker's kicking ability in a better light than that Lucy episode did.

[Doc]

Look, it was my impression that in the early days martial artists would agree to guest star on tv shows using their own names in order to both provide the shows with martial artists that could show the art, and also to get a wider audience and advertisement for their art. As such, whether it was Bruce Tegner, Bruce Lee, or Ed Parker, it was my impression that they would be trying to show off in a way that would attract students. It didn't look like Mr. Parker was clowning around except for his trying to dazzle Lucy with the techniques and have her react with crosseyed bewilderment.

Perhaps someone here could direct me to a clip that shows Mr. Parker's kicking ability in a better light than that Lucy episode did.
Mr. Parker was equally adept and protraying himself as an "ordinary guy" in film and TV, who happened to study the martial arts. He was a genius at making fun of himself and down playing his abilities. As recently as his stint in the Pink Panther movies, he depicted himself as a mean tough guy with bad luck that lost every confrontation with Inspector Clouseau- badly. Even in his major fight scene in "Revenge of the Pink Panther," even though he kicked the crap out of everyone, he still was hit over the head from behind with a bottle. Parker insisted on the human element of the martial artist who was good at what he did, but not infallible. In answer to the question about the kicks in the "Lucy" episodes as well as others like "I Spy," "Matt Helm," and others. In "The Courtship of Eddies Father" he was taken down by the white belt child actor taking "karate" lessons, even though he was the teacher. He always said, "If you look too good, people will admire you but won't consier they could do the same thing. We want them to feel they could participate." Those who knew him well knows he was a clown, a cut up, and a constant jokester. He often put himself down in seminars and laughed at himself to make participants feel good about what they were doing.

[Wild Bill]

Those who knew him well knows he was a clown, a cut up, and a constant jokester. He often put himself down in seminars and laughed at himself to make participants feel good about what they were doing.

You don't often here about the personal side of Mr. Parker. I would love to read more about the man not just the martial artist. I wish someone would write a good biography.

[Danjo]

Mr. Parker was equally adept and protraying himself as an "ordinary guy" in film and TV, who happened to study the martial arts. He was a genius at making fun of himself and down playing his abilities. As recently as his stint in the Pink Panther movies, he depicted himself as a mean tough guy with bad luck that lost every confrontation with Inspector Clouseau- badly. Even in his major fight scene in "Revenge of the Pink Panther," even though he kicked the crap out of everyone, he still was hit over the head from behind with a bottle. Parker insisted on the human element of the martial artist who was good at what he did, but not infallible. In answer to the question about the kicks in the "Lucy" episodes as well as others like "I Spy," "Matt Helm," and others. In "The Courtship of Eddies Father" he was taken down by the white belt child actor taking "karate" lessons, even though he was the teacher. He always said, "If you look too good, people will admire you but won't consier they could do the same thing. We want them to feel they could participate." Those who knew him well knows he was a clown, a cut up, and a constant jokester. He often put himself down in seminars and laughed at himself to make participants feel good about what they were doing.

Thanks Doc,

AS always, I appreciate your insight and perspective. I remember the Pink Panther Movies and the fight scene you're talking about. Funny stuff.

[monkey]

From what I remeber & have the training films from the early days -not much devoted to kicks.He did have hard low kicks but,there are others who came in from other arts & devloped that aspect with there students.Yes he had kick but kempo was an empty hand mostly not the lower exstematies.I have the Lucy ep you talk of & I know Bruce Lee did the corigraph for mat helm-as Coburn was his student.Also he did the Wrecking crew for Sharon Tate befor Manson got to her & family.Sharon was a bigining student of Bruce as well.I know there was supose to be another movie with Parker.Didnt see it so cant tell if he kicks oin it or not.

[Doc]

From what I remeber & have the training films from the early days -not much devoted to kicks.He did have hard low kicks but,there are others who came in from other arts & devloped that aspect with there students.Yes he had kick but kempo was an empty hand mostly not the lower exstematies.I have the Lucy ep you talk of & I know Bruce Lee did the corigraph for mat helm-as Coburn was his student.Also he did the Wrecking crew for Sharon Tate befor Manson got to her & family.Sharon was a bigining student of Bruce as well.I know there was supose to be another movie with Parker.Didnt see it so cant tell if he kicks oin it or not.
Matt Helm was protrayed by Dean Martin not James Coburn, and was doubled by Mike Stone. Bruce Lee did the fight coreography only for "The Wrecking Crew," not others in the series. The Wrecking Crew contained noted martial artists including Chuck Norris's film debut. Also Bill Ryuzaki, Jow Lewis, Ed Parker, and as previously stated as a stunt double, Mike Stone.

Ed Parker's kicking mirrored that of his teachers who didn't believe in TKD kicks for self defense. No one else 'developed' those type kicks for 'his students.' A brief check of even the commercial material reveals no instructions, forms, or sets, that promote, teach, or suggest such kicks. Students coming from other arts and those who competed picked them up on their own.

[Danjo]

Matt Helm was protrayed by Dean Martin not James Coburn, and was doubled by Mike Stone. Bruce Lee did the fight coreography only for "The Wrecking Crew," not others in the series. The Wrecking Crew contained noted martial artists including Chuck Norris's film debut. Also Bill Ryuzaki, Jow Lewis, Ed Parker, and as previously stated as a stunt double, Mike Stone.

Ed Parker's kicking mirrored that of his teachers who didn't believe in TKD kicks for self defense. No one else 'developed' those type kicks for 'his students.' A brief check of even the commercial material reveals no instructions, forms, or sets, that promote, teach, or suggest such kicks. Students coming from other arts and those who competed picked them up on their own.

You mentioned that Ark Wong didn't believe in stretching. It seems that I have heard that before. Was this because he thought that it would unduly stretch out the ligaments and tendons and thus reduce strength? I have read where some of the older Chinese Masters taught this. Ark Wong also said (if I remember correctly) that Tai Chi wasn't for young men, but should be started about the age of 40. Any idea why he would have said this?

[Doc]

You mentioned that Ark Wong didn't believe in stretching. It seems that I have heard that before. Was this because he thought that it would unduly stretch out the ligaments and tendons and thus reduce strength? I have read where some of the older Chinese Masters taught this. Ark Wong also said (if I remember correctly) that Tai Chi wasn't for young men, but should be started about the age of 40. Any idea why he would have said this?
Man you're good. :)

Ark Wong believed the damage to the body caused by excessive stretching after the age of 10 years old, outweighed any benefit that might be obtained from a martial arts self defense perspective, balanced against longevity and efficiency.

Ark Wong didn't mean that Taiji was only for those over forty. What he said was he felt that to begin teaching the true science required significant mental and physical energy, and that after forty, the greater benfit to the individual would be through Taiji. Or to quote him from memory, "After 40, too hard to learn."

Ark Wong also didn't believe in TYKD style kicks that Bruce Lee popularized but don't really exist in the Chinese Arts. His perspective, Like Chow's was self defense first, and neither believed in tornamnets. As a side note, Bruce Lee learned his movie kicks from Hapkido GM Sea Oh Choi. I mention this because the old Chinese had similar philosophies and primarily differend in areas of focus and methods of training. James (Jimmy) Wing Woo had a similar perspective and always said, all Chinese Arts are the same. Only the focus is different.

You're good man. :)

[Rich_Hale]

Could Mr. Parker Kick?

Yep, he could kick alright, but remember - Mr. Parker practiced what he preached.

Take a run through our techniques and you will see that the term "kick" is used in 137 techniques, but how many of those kicks are delivered above the waist - while your opponent is still standing upright?

Mr. Parker believed, very strongly, that kicking the head made as much sense as punching the feet (as was already mentioned), but he not only allowed me to kick high, he encouraged it.

Mr. Parker knew that a roundhouse kick to the head was as easy for me as a punch to the stomach, so he never had a problem with it. In fact Mr. Parker enjoyed seeing a good head shot as much as the next guy - but still any time he taught me the mechanics of kicking, it was never high and always low.

On the other hand, every now and then, he would mention that I wasn't always going to be in my early thirties and weigh a hundred and sixty pounds. Now at 54 years of age and lingering around 200 pounds, I kick pretty much like he taught me - fast, hard, and yes, low.

Okay, I know I didn't really have anything new to add to the conversation. That's why I included a few of my Mr. Parker kicking people pictures to add to your viewing enjoyment.

[jukado1]

James Coburn starred in "In like flint", And a sequel, The first one was done before Coburn met Bruce Lee, And was choreographed by Bruce Tegner, As far as Ed Parker's kicks, He was very good at functional kicks, Not as good at "show" kicks.

[jazkiljok]

Well, I just watched and old episode of the Lucy Show with Ed Parker as a "Judo Karate" student demonstrating kenpo for Lucy and Viv, Well, he looked pretty good until it came time for him to demonstrate various kicks. MAN his kicks looked bad! I mean, I've seen Ed Parker do some awesome things, but kicking certainly was not forte`. Anyone know why this is? Was it an anatomical thing, or did he just not like kicking?

you know it's been way too long for me to remember any details of that show- and i know i confuse at times my memory of Ed Parker's bit on Courtship of Eddie's Father but i went to check the episode description here's what i got:


A prowler has been reported in the neighborhood, so Lucy (Lucille Ball) and Viv (Vivian Vance) decide to learn how to defend themselves. This decision leads to a memorable afternoon at a judo academy, presided over by real-life martial arts expert Louis Coppola. Despite the usual slapstickery, the girls become quite adept at judo--but their new-found athletic prowess inevitably backfires, and at the worst possible time to boot. -- Hal Erickson

Dick Martin
- Harry Conners
Louis Coppola
- Himself
Henry Kulky
- Tough Guy
James Seay
- Mr. Sheldon
Ed Parker
- Prowler

are you sure Parker was demoing kicks? he played the prowler on this episode. or is this episode description just wrong?

[Doc]

The best illustration of Mr. Parker's kicking philosophy comes in an actual event at the Pasadena studio. Some guy comes in asking a bunch of questions and eventually challenges Parker's ability to 'kick him the head.' (Foolish man) After some bantering back and forth a wager was made that Parker, because of his size and girth, would be unable to launch a head kick at the terminally stupid inquisitor. The money was placed in the guys shirt pocket as he set up in what he considered a 'fighting posture.' Mr. Parker asked him if he was 'ready,' and flinched a couple times and watched the guy raise his hands up every time. Suddenly the Old Man whipped a low roundhouse kick to the back of the guys knee and he hit the ground hard with a thud. Than Parker walked over, placed his foot on top of the guys head, and bent over and took the money out of his shirt pocket. "If muhammad won't go to the mountain, you can always bring the mountain to muhammad." he said as he smile and walked back into his office. I never forgot that lesson.

Mr. Parker had no problems with those who had the ability to execute other kinds of kicks from other styles. He even encouraged it for some while discouraging it in others less capable, or anatomically challenged. But even so he always cautioned everyone in their use in realistic circumstances, while admiring at the same time how good some of the guys were.

[Doc]

Doc,

I had a video tape of Mr. Parker teaching a seminar in Hawaii where he told the students, "I may not be able to kick very well, but I can teach YOU how to kick very well." Maybe he was exaggerating his lack of kicking ability. The Lucy Show that I am refering to was perhaps not his best example of kicking ability, but when I watched it, I thought I finally saw what he'd been talking about when he said that to those students. Especially when he demonstrated his spinning back kick. Clearly you've seen much more of Mr. Parker's abilities than I have so I'm in no way trying to dispute what you are saying about what you've seen. My comments were based soley on what I had seen in the tape and put together with what I had heard him say himself on another tape. I am not trying to bash on Mr. Parker's abilities in general (which would make me look rather foolish) and mean no disrespect. I was merely curious about what I had seen.
For the record sir, you know I never thought you meant anything negative for a nanosecond. I always appreciaye your questions, comments, and insights as we all learn from each other and poke each others brain and shake loose a thought and memory or two. :)

[Flying Crane]

Ark Wong believed the damage to the body caused by excessive stretching after the age of 10 years old, outweighed any benefit that might be obtained from a martial arts self defense perspective, balanced against longevity and efficiency.


Was this opinion for all stretching of any kind? I can certainly understand why one would believe that the extreme and aggressive stretching that is done in Modern Wushu is detrimental to overall health (much about Modern Wushu is really detrimental to longterm health, actually). But reasonable stretching as part of a warm-up routine to avoid injuries during training is certainly an important thing.

[Doc]

Was this opinion for all stretching of any kind? I can certainly understand why one would believe that the extreme and aggressive stretching that is done in Modern Wushu is detrimental to overall health (much about Modern Wushu is really detrimental to longterm health, actually). But reasonable stretching as part of a warm-up routine to avoid injuries during training is certainly an important thing.
Ark Wong's (and Ed Parker's) idea of 'stretching' was essentially what you speak of. But they also felt that you should do no specific stretching exercises, but simply began training slowly ala Taiji. Stretching exercises waste time, he would always say. Oddly enough, as an always 'thick' guy, I never stretched but had no trouble with high kicks at all when I was younger, even though I could not do static stretching. When I needed to kick, they would just work.