Cross Training

[7starmantis]

Do you believe cross training in differnet arts is beneficial or detrimental to your art or skill?
I think its detrimental in that you do not get a chance to really "master" each art.

7sm

[hand2handCombat]

on the contrary, i believe u can master each art well. but not as fast as you would if u didnt cross-train. its very good to cross-train because you would be prepared for different situations. but cross training doesnt mean learn everyone u can, just the ones u need.

for example, for stand up arts youll need something like Muay Thai for kicks, Western Boxing for punches, Modern Arnis for knives, Kenpo for stick, Jiu-Jitsu for throw downs then wehn the opponent is on the floor u need some BJJ

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

on the contrary, i believe u can master each art well. but not as fast as you would if u didnt cross-train. its very good to cross-train because you would be prepared for different situations. but cross training doesnt mean learn everyone u can, just the ones u need.

for example, for stand up arts youll need something like Muay Thai for kicks, Western Boxing for punches, Modern Arnis for knives, Kenpo for stick, Jiu-Jitsu for throw downs then wehn the opponent is on the floor u need some BJJ

Wow, I would have to say that recipe list of arts would be hard to accomplish. What would you consider enough time to "master" one of those arts before going to the next one ?

7sm

[hand2handCombat]

i would say how much TIME would be efficient but how much training and effort you put in it. also, u have to be careful about instructors and mcdojos.

you wouldnt need to master an art, just be good at it. your instructor should be the one to decide

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

you wouldnt need to master an art, just be good at it. your instructor should be the one to decide

I disagree totaly. If you never "master" an art, you have no idea how useful it can be in each different situation. How will you know what is good for certain kicks and punches, if you never master the art? Who says you need certain types of kicks and punches, and grappling skills? If you truly master your art, you need only it. As a 7 Star Mantis practicioner, you shouldn't end up on the ground in a grappling match, if you mastered your art, you wouldn't.


7sm

[hand2handCombat]

u bring up a good point. but u still need to stick to crosstraining becasue anything could happen

[7starmantis]

I see how people want the advantage of crosstraining, but if it is so effective, why didn't any of the old masters and grandmasters crosstrain? They are extremely effective, and never cross trained a bit.


7sm

[arnisador]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

I see how people want the advantage of crosstraining, but if it is so effective, why didn't any of the old masters and grandmasters crosstrain? They are extremely effective, and never cross trained a bit.

I don't believe it! At the least they sampled other arts before settling on one which gave them new ideas to bring into their own arts. The challenges did the same--it was just less formal training.

I have mixed feelings. Crosstraining Shotokan and Hsing-I is a bad idea unless you've mastered one first; but adding BJJ to either wouldn't hurt. It depends on the arts. It depends on how the arts are trying to make you move.

Karate destroyed my ability to hit a baseball--I swung a bat like a bo. Arnis has helped as the swing is more like that in baseball!

[7starmantis]

Hmm, good point, but unless we are developing our own style, then the cross training of the masters and grandmasters doesn't come into play. Maybe Its just in CMA that its not good to cross train. I don't see how learning the flowing arts of certain Kung FU styles would help with a hard style of Karate. You build your instincts with practice, if you practice conflicting styles it can mess up your instincts, don't you think?


JMHO,

7sm

[arnisador]

Yes--if you practice conflicting styles, like northern kung fu and Japanese karate, you mightn't develop the style of movement either art tries to give you. Your body will be confused! But how about northern kung fu and aikido? Japanese karate and TKD? Judo and Muay Thai? I see less conflict in these cases. In fact, BJJ and Muay Thai seems rather effective. It depends on the styles!

[Zujitsuka]

Good day folks. I feel that one should cross-train. One should have a primary martial art, but surely one martial art doesn't have all the answers - like hand2handcombat said. We also have to be careful what we spend our time mastering because it could be the wrong thing.

In regards to a grandmaster not cross-training, well if they don't, perhaps it is an ego thing or perhaps they've never been in a fight. A lot of commercial schools don't want their students cross-training because they want all of your money.

Most grandmasters that I've read about have in fact cross-trained (i.e. Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido; Jigoro Kano, founder of Judo; Bruce Lee, founder of Jeet Kune Do). Also, modern systems are hybrids too like San Shou (developed by the People's Republic of China's Army), and Krav Maga (developed by the Israeli Army).

The founder of my primary martial art is officially recognized by the World Sokeship Council as a grandmaster/head of system. He holds degrees in Nisei Goju Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Sanuces Jujutsu, and Judo. He also was instructed in Recon Marine hand-to-hand combatives while he was part of an elite Marine Corp unit. He encourages all of his students to cross-train and in his words...."Use whatever works."

As he demonstrates to us, REAL grandmasters never stop being students. He is regularly meeting and cross-training with other prominent masters.

Respectfully,

Tyrone Turner
"Zujitsuka"
Queens, NY
________________________
http://www.tyroneturner.com

[7starmantis]

Hmmm.....

You bring up a very good point. Northern Kung Fu and Aikido do have alot of similarities. I just think it is too hard to master just one technique in Kung Fu, without trying to master another one from a differnet art, at the same time. Kung Fu is admitantly very different from most, so maybe thats my problem.....


You have made me think though.... I'm going to have to do some practicing now, to test it! :)

[hand2handCombat]

I see how people want the advantage of crosstraining, but if it is so effective, why didn't any of the old masters and grandmasters crosstrain? They are extremely effective, and never cross trained a bit.

maybe the different arts werent introduced to them yet?im not sure.

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat



maybe the different arts werent introduced to them yet?im not sure.

They had several arts to cross train in but trained religiously in their own art. I think my problem is that there is so much more to Kung Fu than fighting thats why I feel its detrimental to cross train.


7sm

[7starmantis]

I'm a green belt now!! WOO HOOO

:D :D :D

[theneuhauser]

7*mantis,

you probably have a hard time with the idea of cross training because most cma's have such huge curriculums, and in a way many do cross train (taiji, pakua, hsing-i, chin na, weapons, etc.).
i can defenitely understand that.
but noone has addressed the fact that unless you want to travel the earth fighting everyone to test your skills, it really doesnt matter if you are a little deficient in kicks, or in grappling or your boxing method.

you cross train to fulfill a need to learn more or gain a new perspective.:D

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by theneuhauser

7*mantis,

you probably have a hard time with the idea of cross training because most cma's have such huge curriculums, and in a way many do cross train (taiji, pakua, hsing-i, chin na, weapons, etc.).
i can defenitely understand that.


Very true, that is probably my problem with cross training. Most CMA do not encourage cross training either, so that is probably where most of it came from. Seeing how I've only studied CMA.


7sm

[arnisador]

I absolutely agree, and I don't generally recommend cross-training in a remotely simialr system to people in kung fu or karate. A very different one like judo, maybe.

If your system has a few different animals in it, some chin na, some shuai chou, a little tai chi--you may already be cross-training. But you need to master a certain style of using them all together, witha certain strategy (like plucking that was discussed on the CMA-General board, or pangainoon's big circular blocks to get to the outside, or eagle claw's intent to drive in with an eagle claw lock).

[jkn75]

This is an interesting topic.

I study Kuk Sool (Korean) and do not cross train. I think that some martial arts lend themselves to cross training. I agree with the Tae Kwon do/Karate+Judo options especially. They focus on select things to the point of proficiency but do seem to neglect others (e.g. TKD neglects grappling).

But certain martial arts focus on so many things that its hard to become proficient with everything without the complications of another art causing confusion. These arts are more jack-of-all- trades arts. They do not master a certain area but they neglect fewer others. Would it benefit me to train in TKD and Judo in my Kuk sool practice? Yes. Do I have the time/money/opportunity? Not always.

As far as Grandmasters go, my opinion is that early martial systems developed simply- they found things that worked and practiced and practiced. Grandmasters became that way because they were the best at those techniques, survived battles and challenges the longest, and were able to transfer that knowledge effectively. They obviously had some skill above and beyond.

In the modern period of martial arts (1950-present), newer martial art systems benefit in that anyone can create a system today. Granted just because you can do this doesn't mean you do, but most newer systems are developed because of the newer Grandmaster's dissatisfaction with existing systems. For example Dr He Young Kimm has a background in Kuk Sool, Hapkido etc but created Han Mu Do.

It helps martial arts to grow and evolve. These people obviously have crosstrained and to our benefit have eliminated some of the work for us. By combining things out of their backgrounds they try to develop more well rounded systems that they think will work better than the previous one and share that with students who find what they are teaching more interesting than the other options available.
:asian:

[artful dodger]

There's only so many hours in a day you can train in. I say use them all to become really proficient in your art. All that matters is that you know your stuff better than your opponent knows theirs. And there's something to be said for focussing on one style because you get more opportunity to learn the art as a whole and discover answers within that art that you wouldn't otherwise no exist. Every minute spent crosstraining is a minute less to perfect the techniques that in the end you will probably resort to using anyway. I have tried to crosstrain before, but I know when it comes the crunch you have your own style and you always end up falling back on a few favourite techniques that you can do WELL.

[Deathtrap101]

Well im still getting so much information from studying karate, i do want to try out other styles, my main style will always be karate i beleive, and i dont think ill jump into hardcore itraining with another style untill the knowledge im getting now slows down to the point where im just trying to perfect all my moves and am already very good at them.

So if your going to crosstrain just make sure your learning more than just the top thin layers of each art. Becuse all of them im sure go very deep in information.

Just my 2 bits

[Angus]

It really depends on the persons need whether cross training is going to be beneficial for the person. Detrimental for the preservation of a traditional art? Maybe, but in my opinion arts is supposed to have some sort of evolution/progression over time, rather than staying completely static and unchanged over time. Not that many need to be, I just think it's going to happen whether you really want it or not.

As for the person, some are fine with 1 art and some want many. I happen to like many. However, I'm going to study many traditionally-based (but evolved) arts until I'm satisfied with what I know and I can do. I've studied Karate (american, not wholly traditional) to black, I studied Muay Thai unbelted for a few years, and I'm now studying a blend of things that does not completely satisfy me. Next I want to study Jungyae Moosul, which is a Korean martial art created just 15 years ago by the son of a Tae Kwon Do supreme grandmaster because he felt that it needed to be less sport oriented and more spiritual, while adding ground fighting/grappling and weapons training. It's a great system. But will I stop there? Maybe not. I may not teach every art someday, but I want to be as complete a martial artist as possible. But again, that's just me. I plan to study at least another 10/15 years before I teach because I'm still young. But even then I plan to constantly study other (and the same) arts. I just want to learn and be a perpetual student, because cross training really does take up a LOT of time but can be very beneficial for the student. Good discussion!

On another side note: I think it's better to learn 1 art at a time for preservation of the art, whether that person has studied others or not. Teach too many at the same time and it's really not teaching the arts so much as a way of defense/fighting that creates a jack-of-all-trades-"master"-of-none, which is probably the biggest problem with crosstraining. I think 1 art at a time for me.

[Kempojujutsu]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

I see how people want the advantage of crosstraining, but if it is so effective, why didn't any of the old masters and grandmasters crosstrain? They are extremely effective, and never cross trained a bit.


7sm
In fact alot of people we would call Masters cross-trained. They maybe didn't study different arts, but study with various teachers. Shigeru Nakamura the founder of Okinawa Kempo studied with 7 different Teachers. Anko Itosu the man who developed the Pinan Kata's studied under 4 different teachers. Shoshin Nagamine the founder of Matsubayashi-Ryu and Chotoku Kyan each had 6 instrutors. The list could go on and on. I believe the Old Masters did cross-train. But they didn't study one art this week and move on to another next week. Cross training is very important for one dementional arts.
Bob :asian:

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu


In fact alot of people we would call Masters cross-trained. They maybe didn't study different arts, but study with various teachers. Shigeru Nakamura the founder of Okinawa Kempo studied with 7 different Teachers. Anko Itosu the man who developed the Pinan Kata's studied under 4 different teachers. Shoshin Nagamine the founder of Matsubayashi-Ryu and Chotoku Kyan each had 6 instrutors. The list could go on and on. I believe the Old Masters did cross-train. But they didn't study one art this week and move on to another next week. Cross training is very important for one dementional arts.
Bob :asian:

I didn't say I disagreed with training under different teachers. I've studied under different teachers myself, and I guess according to you guys have cross trained a bit, having studied Black Dragon, JKD, and now Mantis. I guess my issue as said earlier is that Kung Fu has so much more to it, that it can be very detrimental to cross train with another art. I'm not saying cross training between Tiger style and crane style, although I would do only one at a time. I'm talkign about cross training between Kung Fu and TKD. or something similar to that. Like arnisador said earlier you could call some kung fu system cross training because they use several animal forms, but its the art of using them together that is one system.



JMHO
7sm

[tonbo]

Personally, I believe that cross-training can be beneficial, depending on how you do it.

If you are training to become a master of all styles, don't waste your time. You will never make that happen. You might get a pretty good overview of a number of styles, but you won't truly be able to "master" more than a couple. This is due to the fact that there are so many intricacies in each art, you won't learn all there is to learn in each art unless you happen to be immortal...;)

On the other hand, if you have an established "base" martial art that you train in, cross-training can add to that art and give you different perspectives. It never hurts, for example, for a stand-up fighter to study weapons and grappling; the reverse is also true. Having the variety is good, as you may be exposed to things that can show the holes in your own training, and you can only get stronger that way.

Once again, I will go back to my banquet analogy: The martial arts is like a huge banquet table, loaded with goodies. Some people stick to what they like and know, while others take a little bit of many things. The nice part is, you can always go back for more..;)

I encourage cross-training, with the following warning: don't become a "belt collector", seeking rank in all these various arts. Expose yourself to a couple that you feel may help strengthen weak points of your current training; evaluate what you can learn, and learn that. Don't try to be a master of all......just try to master yourself.

Peace--

[Kirk]

Originally posted by tonbo

Personally, I believe that cross-training can be beneficial, depending on how you do it.

If you are training to become a master of all styles, don't waste your time. You will never make that happen. You might get a pretty good overview of a number of styles, but you won't truly be able to "master" more than a couple. This is due to the fact that there are so many intricacies in each art, you won't learn all there is to learn in each art unless you happen to be immortal...;)

On the other hand, if you have an established "base" martial art that you train in, cross-training can add to that art and give you different perspectives. It never hurts, for example, for a stand-up fighter to study weapons and grappling; the reverse is also true. Having the variety is good, as you may be exposed to things that can show the holes in your own training, and you can only get stronger that way.

Once again, I will go back to my banquet analogy: The martial arts is like a huge banquet table, loaded with goodies. Some people stick to what they like and know, while others take a little bit of many things. The nice part is, you can always go back for more..;)

I encourage cross-training, with the following warning: don't become a "belt collector", seeking rank in all these various arts. Expose yourself to a couple that you feel may help strengthen weak points of your current training; evaluate what you can learn, and learn that. Don't try to be a master of all......just try to master yourself.

Peace--


Great Post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :asian:

[7starmantis]

So we are saying there is no "complete" or perfectly rounded art out there at all ?


7sm

[hand2handCombat]

not really because anything can happen.

[H@pkid0ist]

There are some styles that are more rounded than others though.
Studying them doesn't mean that you are guarented to win any fight. It just helps to prepare you better for whatever situation may come around. If a person does decide to crosstrain though I believe that they should wait until they have a good strong base in their present style. To jump from art to art to much or to soon can be more detrimental than beneficial.

[Nightingale]

I think an important thing to keep in mind is that there's no point in being a "jack of all trades, master of none."

you can't cross train in so much material that it keeps you in the beginning phases of it.

I cross train, but my primary art is and always will be Kenpo. I cross train in things that Kenpo doesn't have, like weapons forms. Kenpo has the staff set, sure, but I want to learn more than that one kata. I learn the sets from other styles and adapt them to kenpo. The kata may have started out as a Japanese form, but when I'm through with it, it looks like a kenpo form, because my stances and style of movement is kenpo. I learn the kata in its original form, and then...kenpofy it. Also, I learn how to use weapons, and then adapt the kenpo forms to use weapons, for example, I do short form 3 with daggers and also with sais, depending on my mood. I may look elsewhere for weapons, because I've got a major attraction to sharp, shiny metal objects, particularly swords and knives, but I wouldn't even think of cross training in self defense, because Kenpo already has that, in spades.

I've seen so many people get caught up in cross training so much that they know the basics and hold orange belts in seven different styles, but they never really seem to advance much beyond that, because the arts are too different, and they're not trying to supplement what they already know, they just want to learn everything and master everything, and there's simply too much knowledge to completely comprehend. Its like trying to get ten different PhDs all at once...better to get one first, and then take a few classes to augment what you already know.

I don't cross train because I want to learn TKD, or Arnis, or whatever. I cross train to make me a better Kenpoist. I think that's the big difference.

[J-kid]

I like to cross train, I do AJW (American Jacket Wrestling) which is Judo/Jijutsu wrestling and all other forms of grappling. I find these skills to be very useful,. But i also like to cross train in striking so i can have both, i did choung nhu but didnt like it much did some boxing and now i am gonna start kenpo, With My AJW i take both , Makes me a stronger fighter, Your friend Judo-kid

[Kenpo Wolf]

Cross Training is beneficial as long as the styles compliment each other or offers something that the primary art lacks. In my situation, I'm a kenpoist all the way, but the kenpo schools I go/went to did'nt offer much in the conditioning element. So to rectify this, I started muay thai which has the toughest conditioning around in my opinion. Being what I would call a basic style, meaning it has no fancy or complcated moves, it compliments kenpo perfectly without detracting from it. I'm also studying arnis for no other reason then it's fun

[MartialArtist]

Cross-training is VERY BENEFICIAL. If done properly, as good if not better than mastering one art which is pretty hard.

However, when you cross-train, it is important you get a strong root in martial arts. Have a root in a single martial art to get an idea on basic footwork, strikes, locks, and etc. After you get a good, strong basis, at least 3 years of INTENSE training, then the variations of techniques from other styles will come a LOT easier.

For instance, sport TKD teaches only one roundhouse (military teaches the roundhouse and the round, what most of you call the muay thai kick). However, if you get a good basis, the round kick that is found in muay thai will come a lot easier than if you didn't have any martial arts training before, as you get the feel of how to throw kicks and how to keep your balance, putting your hips into it, and the general mechanics. There is a slight technical difference, but it is easy to learn. If you freestyle wrestle, trust me, hapkido becomes easier as you get the feel of shifting weight, getting leverage, and moving your opponent's weight, knowing certain areas like the elbow and the hips which can control most of the body which is vital to certain techniques in hapkido.

Cross-training at all arts at the same time can get confusing. Even arts that supplement each other well like boxing and wrestling can be confusing. An experienced person might say, boxing for striking, wrestling for the ground. But wrestling also has take-downs which are meant for stand-up in-fighting. This might cause confusion on whether the guy should duck and throw a combo or duck and go for a double-leg. This calls for a very experienced instructor if you want to cross-train like that or someone who learns very quickly.

But, if you have a good knowledge in either boxing or wrestling, then learn the other, it does come easier.

Compare cross-training with a tree. You need a trunk. Once you have a trunk, you can form all the branches.

[ace]

Cross Training is the only way to go
:asian:
Primo

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by MartialArtist

Cross-training is VERY BENEFICIAL. If done properly, as good if not better than mastering one art which is pretty hard.

So, cross training is easier than mastering one art? That implies that you are only learning the basics of each system you cross train in? How is that beneficial at all, let alone more beneficial than "masterin" an art or system?



7sm

[ace]

I spent the last 5 years in Moder Arnis
I am a 1st dagree black belt.
For the Last 2 years i have competed in Ju Jitsu & Grappling
I have won many evenets.

I have practise other M.A.

I am now 1-0 In M.M.A.

I know my basic's well
But if U get cought up in only 1 art
You will miss out on something new.
:snipe2:
:redeme:
Primo

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by ace

But if U get cought up in only 1 art
You will miss out on something new.

Primo

If you truly study one system you will allways find something new to learn. The reason for cross training shouldn't be for boredom.


7sm

[ace]

The reason for cross training
Will differ from one person to the next.

Also meeting new people with new ideas
is always good.

If the Basic's take longer than a year
The instructer is holding back.:fart:
:redeme:
Primo

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by ace

The reason for cross training
Will differ from one person to the next.

Also meeting new people with new ideas
is always good.

If the Basic's take longer than a year
The instructer is holding back.
Primo

So you agree that you are only looking for the basics of each system.
And the "basics" of my system take a hell of a lot longer than a year!


7sm

[ace]

I agree that i am consintrating on what works.
I agree that if the basic's take longer than a year
My instructer wants my money.
I agree that there is no 1 art with all the answers.

:argue: I agree that i have struck a nerve
:redeme:
Primo

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by ace

I agree that i am consintrating on what works.
I agree that if the basic's take longer than a year
My instructer wants my money.
I agree that there is no 1 art with all the answers.

:argue: I agree that i have struck a nerve

Primo
LOL, no you haven't "struck a nerve", I'm just curious as to your logic. If the basics of several styles work for you thats great. I don't see how learning basics of several styles is goign to help you, but more power to you there friend. I think you should not put a time limit on your MA skill, it takes ALOT longer than you think it does. May I ask how long you have studied MA in general? And saying one art doesn't have the answers is a bit closeminded, wouldn't you agree?


7sm

[ace]

On & off since 4 or 5 im 27 now
Im 27 now but i've been
traning hard for the last 5 years
.:cheers:
Primo

[7starmantis]

So how many systems have you studied, I'm not trying to sound sarcastic, I'm seriously curious.
I've studied Kung Fu exclusivly since I was 7 so I am very biased!:D


7sm

[ace]

7 if U inculde Boxing & Wrestling
Im perticuli good At Submisson Grappling
I have only 1 Black Belt & that is in Modern Arnis.
:karate:
Primo

[7starmantis]

See I really respect you guys that train in many systems, you can really fight, you can take down pretty much anyone. I just go about it a different way. I enjoy the "tradition" and the forms, along with the fighting. And it pisses me off crazy when people make the assumption I cant fight because I only study one system, it makes me want to show them!!

I'm not saying you did that, just venting a bit :D

7sm

[7starmantis]

And....BAM...I'm a brown belt AGAIN!!

[ace]

Cool U are a Martial Talk Brown Belt.
I love & respect all Martial Arts

I feel there is always some thing new for me
to learn.

:wavey:
Primo

[Nightingale]

I've always believed that it is at the black belt level where you truly start learning. Everything under black belt rank is "basics". And it takes a heck of a lot longer than a year to earn a black belt.

[ace]

for me 1 ta 3 belts is basic
3 & higher Are intermidiate.:yinyang:
:redeme:
:asian:
Primo

[7starmantis]

Heh, I was talkign about the Martial talk brwon belt. :D

Yeah, I think black is basically the next step after basics


7sm

[7starmantis]

Black is when you really start getting the technique to instinct. Then you start expanding a bit. Its amazing that there is ALLWAYS more to learn!!


7sm

[Aegis]

In my style the "basics" are learned from novice to green (min time 1 year) After that, you work on them until they are instinctive, while adding more advanced techniques to your repetoir, as well as learning to teach the basics to others. By Shodan you've learned more or less the entire art, and are encouraged to come up with your own variations on techniques.

Since a Shodan in my style MUST be or have been a sensei, the learning process doesn't stop there, as anyone here who has taught will know.

[ace]

My students learn to defend them selves today
Cause tommorw never comes
:snipe2: :snipe2:
Primo

[ace]

If U look up
I said Martial Talk brown belt
cheers
:drinkbeer :cheers:
Primo

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by ace

If U look up
I said Martial Talk brown belt
cheers

Primo

Yeah, I was more directing that to Nightingale. Just clarifying my post a bit.

:cheers:

7sm

[James Kovacich]

I feel that I've grown quite abit as a martial artist since I've cross trained. In my book there is no comparison, but that is just me.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Do you believe cross training in differnet arts is beneficial or detrimental to your art or skill?
I think its detrimental in that you do not get a chance to really "master" each art.

7sm

I think it depends on how it's done and the person doing it.

Rather than retype a bunch of stuff I've previously written, check out my article: "Some Thoughts On Cross Training" at my website - http://www.impactacademy.com/articles

Mike

[Greggers69]

The only reason I'd say to cross train is to get a better understanding of what your oponent is going to try to do. From grappler to wrestler and then martial artist to various styles, the more you know from different styles the better equip you are to counter what they throw at ya. Just my opinion
:asian:

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Greggers69
The only reason I'd say to cross train is to get a better understanding of what your oponent is going to try to do. From grappler to wrestler and then martial artist to various styles, the more you know from different styles the better equip you are to counter what they throw at ya. Just my opinion
:asian:

There's something of that there. But, for me, what I primarily get out of cross training is a deeper understanding of my primary art. By looking for the similarities, I get different perspectives on the same material. These different perspectives of the same concepts/principles help to deepen my understanding of those concepts/principles which then translates to a deeper understanding of my primary art.

Where they don't overlap, my overall knowledge is broadened.

Also, as an instructor, I'm watching how people teach. How do they communicate the concepts/principles. So I get that from cross training, too (and, of course, from watching instructors in my own art as well).

Mike

[A.R.K.]

Cross training is very beneficial. It is the reason most of my students have left what I term one dimensional schools. I teach stand up and grappling/ground fighting.

Good to be well rounded. One should always seek to improve in training.

:asian:

[westernwarrior]

I think cross-training can be benifical, but not for everyone. If you learn to box, what you are really learning is how to attack with your hands, use footwork, head movement etc. But some arts are more...I'd like to say philosophy-based, but that's not quite right.

I'll give an example. if I were to throw a boxer on the ground what could he do? His skills are extremly limited in this situation. This is because a boxer trains for a sport, using specific tools. If I were to throw say, a tai chi guy on the ground, he has principles of power generation and opponent control that still apply.

What I'm trying to say is that some arts have a philosophy or strategy on how to use your body to fight. Those strategies should be applicable in most any situation, so cross training isn't always necessary. But combative sports teach how to use certain tools in certain situations. So to cross train expands your ability to fight in different situations. I'm hope I got this across right.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I disagree totaly. If you never "master" an art, you have no idea how useful it can be in each different situation. How will you know what is good for certain kicks and punches, if you never master the art? Who says you need certain types of kicks and punches, and grappling skills? If you truly master your art, you need only it. As a 7 Star Mantis practicioner, you shouldn't end up on the ground in a grappling match, if you mastered your art, you wouldn't.


7sm



I hear this way too often. :asian:

You mean to tell me that you couldnt be blindly attacked from the back or caught off guard and end up on the ground?

I feel that if you are proficiant at ground fighting, grappling, close quarters, weapon defence and using distance wherever the fight should end up, you will be prepaired. Im not saying that the style Im currently taking is the best but it does cover all of your arena's.


:goop:

[pesilat]

As a 7 Star Mantis practicioner, you shouldn't end up on the ground in a grappling match, if you mastered your art, you wouldn't.

It's always possible to end up on the ground. A fight is completely chaotic and unpredictable. You may possibly be good enough to never get taken down by your opponent (though that's unlikely, too). But you may still have a bad day and trip. You may end up fighting on a surface that provides unsure footing (i.e.: mud, snow, ice, gravel).

Being on the ground doesn't necessarily imply a "grappling match." My personal "ground game" is mostly geared toward getting back to my feet ASAP. I never intend to roll around on the ground grappling with someone.

At the same time, I know that it may happen because of the chaotic nature of fighting.

And Mr. Murphy (the guy who wrote the law) is always ready to lend a "helping hand" in a fight. Which usually means you'll end up in the last place you want (much less intend) to be.

Mike

[Tigertron]

It is beneficial to study other arts. Otherwise you would tend to think that your art is "the" only way, while in reality it is just "one" of many ways. Besides, it is important to be exposed (experience) how other styles fight, so you would know how to defeat them. ;)

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by pesilat
There's something of that there. But, for me, what I primarily get out of cross training is a deeper understanding of my primary art. By looking for the similarities, I get different perspectives on the same material. These different perspectives of the same concepts/principles help to deepen my understanding of those concepts/principles which then translates to a deeper understanding of my primary art.

Where they don't overlap, my overall knowledge is broadened.

Also, as an instructor, I'm watching how people teach. How do they communicate the concepts/principles. So I get that from cross training, too (and, of course, from watching instructors in my own art as well).

Mike

Thats pretty much what I've experienced. When I started BJJ, I had some experience with Judo/Jujutsu and I was jazzed about learning the ground work.

After a considerable amount of time I became functionally sound with my ground work but what I realized was that BJJ just like all arts has many weaknesses too.

So I fixed a weak area for myself and I exposed myself to the "holes" in ground grappling. I love ground grappling but first I'm a stand up fighter. And after I realized that I was "stand up first" I started "seeing" things that everybody else on the mat were overlooking.

Even if I was a ground fighter first, I know I would benefit from learning how a stand up fighter "thinks" and in general fights.

[A.R.K.]

I disagree totaly. If you never "master" an art, you have no idea how useful it can be in each different situation. How will you know what is good for certain kicks and punches, if you never master the art? Who says you need certain types of kicks and punches, and grappling skills? If you truly master your art, you need only it. As a 7 Star Mantis practicioner, you shouldn't end up on the ground in a grappling match, if you mastered your art, you wouldn't.

Well I would have to ask you what you mean by 'mastering' your art? If by obtaining high Dan rank and a title I would respectfully have to disagree with you. A BB or high Dan rank are really pretty meaningless. Titles even more so. I know individuals with high Dan rank who are excellent in form and technique..yet have never actually been in a real physical altercation. With respect I would have to question anyone's practical competency if they have never been forced to use it in a stress filled life and death situation outside the dojo. Regardless of their 'rank' or title.

On the other hand a low rank novice who has actually used the little he/she knows successfully defend themselves or loved ones might actually fit the 'title' of mastering the art much better.

I feel it is folly to assume you know enough never to be taken to the ground. Likewise it is folly to assume you can take everyone to the ground. Unless it's a practiced routine you never know whats going to happen.

Train for the worst and hope for the best.

:asian:

[Zujitsuka]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Well I would have to ask you what you mean by 'mastering' your art? If by obtaining high Dan rank and a title I would respectfully have to disagree with you. A BB or high Dan rank are really pretty meaningless. Titles even more so. I know individuals with high Dan rank who are excellent in form and technique..yet have never actually been in a real physical altercation. With respect I would have to question anyone's practical competency if they have never been forced to use it in a stress filled life and death situation outside the dojo. Regardless of their 'rank' or title.

On the other hand a low rank novice who has actually used the little he/she knows successfully defend themselves or loved ones might actually fit the 'title' of mastering the art much better.

I feel it is folly to assume you know enough never to be taken to the ground. Likewise it is folly to assume you can take everyone to the ground. Unless it's a practiced routine you never know whats going to happen.

Train for the worst and hope for the best.

:asian:

No better gospel has been spoken.

[lucifersdad]

personally, i think mma and cross training is excellant!

never mind the benefits of learning new skills, u can also find flaws in how you deliver a technique or in your movement when you spar etc. etc.
even on the basics side, i found training in a "similar" style benefited my training.
when i was training for my second dan in karate i took up ITF taekwondo as well, and i found my karate basics improve quite alot. maybe it all depends on who you train with and in what style, sometimes all you need is a differant perspective on things you all ready do,
but im probably wrong!
again!:(

[K' Evans]

I had posted up the question of cross-training before, and though I received some answers which were helpful, I also eventually found the answer myself.

The article by IMPACT Academy (which is great) sort of sums up my thoughts. As a beginner, and I think even for a considerable amount of time in 'mastering' the art, cross-training shouldn't be heavily endorsed. It's not that cross-training is bad, but it has to be tackled in a sensible and intelligent manner. If you cross-train in too many arts at a time when you don't have a proper foundation in one primary art, it will then have a lot of drawbacks: 1) you are just being a 'technique collector', hence not absorbing what you are learning, 2) you will be on an endless cycle collecting dozens upon dozens of techniques with no understanding or minimal training of the proper principles, 3) your training time will be disorganized and affected by trying to learn so much.

One exception is if the two arts are categorically different: like Karate (striking) with Judo (grappling). Nevertheless, I think an individual can still get mixed up with stance positions and movements, so it is important for the individual to truly understand and discriminate the differences so that s/he can effectively learn both arts at the same time. Of course, some arts also compliment others, so it's also good to find a good match if cross-training. I also think some individuals are exceptionally gifted to learn multiple arts at a time, and I certainly respect their intelligence and stamina.

I like what was said abt not worrying to become a "belt-collector", but have to admit, that having a belt is one of the more apparent ways to "prove" your proficiency in said art. Nevertheless, I think practitioners can practice cross-training in a healthy way as long as they are trying to understand their strengths and weaknesses better and not for the narcisstic goal of trying to become a multi-art master as fast as possible. The former approach takes time, patience, reflection and diligence.

[kidswarrior]

It's not that cross-training is bad, but it has to be tackled in a sensible and intelligent manner. If you cross-train in too many arts at a time when you don't have a proper foundation in one primary art, it will then have a lot of drawbacks: 1) you are just being a 'technique collector', hence not absorbing what you are learning, 2) you will be on an endless cycle collecting dozens upon dozens of techniques with no understanding or minimal training of the proper principles, 3) your training time will be disorganized and affected by trying to learn so much.

For me, this has to be determined by the overall strategies of each art. Are the basic 10-12 overarching beliefs and goals of the arts compatible, even if complementary? For example, I cross trained in Kempo and Kung Fu San Soo. Both are--the way I learned them--striking arts (compatible). However, one believes in a flurry or combination of punches, while the other believes any strike, crank, or throw--even the first one (often in 3-strike combos) should probably immobilize an opponent (complementary). One puts a high priority on self-defense, while the other believes in striking first (complementary). I was able to reconcile the two, but maybe because I didn't start the second until I had several years in the first--not mastery, but a good start (don't know I'll ever feel I have 'mastery' in either).


One exception is if the two arts are categorically different: like Karate (striking) with Judo (grappling).A good reason for studying two arts, but the following admonition is also well said:

Nevertheless, I think an individual can still get mixed up with stance positions and movements, so it is important for the individual to truly understand and discriminate the differences so that s/he can effectively learn both arts at the same time. Of course, some arts also compliment others, so it's also good to find a good match if cross-training.

The (right) approach takes time, patience, reflection and diligence.I stumbled into cross training; did not go looking for it. But it served me very well. Sometimes waiting for those 'accidents' in life is actually not the detour, but the true path. In that case, especially, I think cross training can be a very good thing.

[TraditionalTKD]

I think cross training has benefits, if it is approached correctly. There is nothing worse in martial arts than a student who feels the need to study 3-4 arts simultaneously. From white belt to black, you need to be grounded in one art. Not to say other styles don't have benefits, but in the beginning, your body and mind need one road to go down. It's hard enough learning the basics and intricate dynamics of one style, much less three or four. Plus, your Instructor needs to know you are a loyal and dependable student if he is really going to teach you.
After black belt, when you have a better knowlege of basics, it is natural to experiment and pick up techniques from ther styles. Especially if you are in an environment where other styles are available (college perhaps), it can be interesting to pick up things from other styles, compare them to what you do, and perhaps add them to your repertoir. You are still a student of X art however.
If you are interested in earning rank in another style, I strongly feel it is best to wait until you have earned high enough rank (at least 4th Dan, depending on the art) before you take up another art officially.
Aside from having mastered the basics of your chosen art, your Instructor needs to know that you are loyal enough to stick with him for and not go studying another art the first chance you get. In fact, one of the principles of traditional Tae Kwon Do is loyalty. If I can't count on you as a loyal student, why should I teach you?

[jim777]

Holy thread resurection Batman! :lol: Sorry, couldn't help it ;)

[Ceicei]

I study American Kenpo and cross train with Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. Kenpo is my foundation art. These two styles meld together very well. However, I will admit that sometimes there are training challenges that do occur when I am used to doing things one way with one style and have to do the same move in a different way with the other style.

- Ceicei

[Darth F.Takeda]

There is no solid YES or NO on this, it depends on the individual, the art's in question and other factors, like training times and availability of training resources.

I feel you need a core art and you can expand from there.

I do feel that art hopping is a bad idea, you know the guy who spends a couple of months doing this and a coule of months doing that. They get alot of exposure and intelectual knowledge of different arts, but tend to be lacking in actually putting it al together.

I do feel that, if time permits you can study 1-3 arts, at the same time. When you are in High School and College, you dont go to just one class, you go to several. Lot's of people used to Box and Wrestle and Fence in Military Acadamies and it would develope their skills in multiple ranges, way before MMA and Bruce Lee. Many Asian artist studied multiple arts as well.

[MingTheMerciless]

Cross training is good to a certain degree .I personally train in Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do ( stand up striking) , Greco Roman ( Takedown and stand up grappling ) and BJJ ( Submission , choke and lock ) . But then if cross training is tiresome and stressful for you , I suggest that it would be better to cross train some other time . I thinkinf f picking up San shou someother time as I am having problem transition from striking to clinch and ground as my three system listed above trained seperately