Is BJJ a WMA? I think that this argument could be made. Sure, this art has roots in JMA, but I think that the art has evolved into something completely different and innovative.

maybe, but I think based on common usage of the phrase "Western Martial Art" it's not going to fit. I'm quite alright with "Brazillian Martial Art" though :)

Is BJJ a WMA? I think that this argument could be made. Sure, this art has roots in JMA, but I think that the art has evolved into something completely different and innovative.

Good question - but I think Andrew nailed it.

well...
it's japanese in origin
and it's brazilian in development
yeah, brazil happens to fall in the west, but it's not really considered "west".. "west" usually means europe + north america.....
one might argue that it's pretty popular in the US, but it could be popular in say... dont know, Israel, Iran... so i still consider it south american art like capoeira. my 2 cents.. humbly :)

I would say no to western, but, yes to Brazilian.

You can say it is a Brazilian-Japanese art. I used the term Japanese not to forget the role of Mitsuyo Maeda as the inspirer to this art.

I've started training with some BJJ guys and I've trained in JJJ and judo for quite awhile. BJJ is not like training in JMA. In fact, it reminds me of my wrestling days. It is innovative IMO. I think that this could be a WMA and that our definition of WMA is overly narrow.

What about MMA is that Western? I do not really know if BJJ should be categorized as a western martial art. I am sure my brazilian friends would prefer it be referred to as a Brazilian martial art. Mixed martial art is a pretty common way to refering to the sport art being used in most UFC, Pride, King of the Cage, etc. However, MMA is all over the world so it would be hard to categorize it as a western martial art, eastern martial art, Russian martial art, Japanese martial art, etc. This is a good question though.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

I think that philosophically, MMA is much more Western then anything else. Same with BJJ. Everything is taught in portugese for one thing and western sportive training methods are used more then Asian concepts.

I would definately agree that BJJ or MMA are definately using a more western sporting method in their training. However, the russians have used similar training with Sambo now for a long, long time. BJJ is still referred to as Brazilian. I imagine over time some of the Brazilians will determine if it is a western martial art or not. Till then we will probably just have to wait to codeify it. While with MMA it would be hard to nail down any country or West versus East because it is now everywhere and multiple variations are being taught under the MMA moniker. Just check out this video in Korea. It is a Korean martial art but looks like MMA by most accounts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAjtZ69e08Q Just my .02's worth.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

BJJ is very much Judo based in how they train, Judo is not western...

As for MMA, I think it's pretty global. Pankration was greek, Brazil did Vale Tudo, Japan was doing shootfighting, etc. I think it was pretty much a given that eventually someone was going to combine wrestling and boxing back into one again, and as it happened it was getting done in a few places at once, all of which helped bring it into the spotlight.

BJJ is very much Judo based in how they train, Judo is not western...

Having trained in Judo, this hasn't been my impression. What makes you come to this conclusion?

By there own admission, that's what they based their ideas off of, and added their own "flavour". Basically taking the Randori idea and dumping much of the Japanese ritual

By there own admission, that's what they based their ideas off of, and added their own "flavour". Basically taking the Randori idea and dumping much of the Japanese ritual

I understand that but BJJ newaza is sooooo different from Judo newaza that they are two completely different beasts...IMO. It is much more then just adding "flavour". Thus far, I've seen some pretty interesting stuff that isn't included in Judo at all.

If BJJ is to be considered a WMA, by the same logic all modern styles of jiu jitsu should be considered the same. Danzan-ryu, Small Circle, etc all have a base in the Asian arts, but are not taught the same as the koryu arts.

So is every development or progression done in America or Europe to be considered a western martial art?

I understand that but BJJ newaza is sooooo different from Judo newaza that they are two completely different beasts...IMO. It is much more then just adding "flavour". Thus far, I've seen some pretty interesting stuff that isn't included in Judo at all.

I was refering less to the actual technique and more to where their training methods originated :) But even the techniques are quite similar, BJJ just takes ground work to a much higher level, Judo takes throws to a higher level.

BJJ is like many other styles of martial arts that have taken concepts from both the west and the east to create a new system of training. So you can say that BJJ may have been influenced by WMA. But, BJJ can not be called a WMA or a JMA. It's a hybrid system like many other hybrids out there.

WMA are usually used to refer to Martial Arts developed, or its roots, in Europe. Such as boxing, wrestling, pankration, fencing, broad sword, or other old combat methods from there (Irish stick fighting).

Western or Eastern? Wrong! You guys are all wrong! Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is a SOUTHERN Martial Art. Most of Brazil is in the SOUTHERN Hemisphere.

Having trained in Judo, this hasn't been my impression. What makes you come to this conclusion?

It's not the impression I've gotten either. Although that is where they have their roots, the way the art is practiced is more like Wrestling practice than Judo practice.

It's not the impression I've gotten either. Although that is where they have their roots, the way the art is practiced is more like Wrestling practice than Judo practice.

Wrestling without pins and with finishing moves...

Wrestling without pins and with finishing moves...

No doubt. The rules are different, the goals are different, but the way these two arts are practiced is the same. And both are VERY different than the way Judo and other Ju Jitsu styles are practiced. At least the ones I've been exposed to anyway. :asian:

When you watch competitors without knowing their background, can anyone point out whether this guy is trained in judo, japanese jiujitsu, or brazilian jiujitsu. If you can't then the end result is the same though the training method as to how to get to the same goal is different.

Just curious for those who has experience in those various styles, can they articulate how exactly the training method between judo/Japanese jiujitsu and brazilian jiujistu/wrestling is so different. inquiring minds wish to know.

When you watch competitors without knowing their background, can anyone point out whether this guy is trained in judo, japanese jiujitsu, or brazilian jiujitsu. If you can't then the end result is the same though the training method as to how to get to the same goal is different.

Just curious for those who has experience in those various styles, can they articulate how exactly the training method between judo/Japanese jiujitsu and brazilian jiujistu/wrestling is so different. inquiring minds wish to know.

Yes. It is easy to tell. To over generalize...

Japanese Jujitsu practitioners don't spar. They simply can't make the moves work on resisting grapplers.
Judo practitioners do spar. They focus on throwing. Generally, their throws from standing are the best of any gi-wearing art. On the ground, they are good at pinning and OK at submissions.
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioners spar. They focus on the ground game and are the best of these three arts at submissions.

Yes. It is easy to tell. To over generalize...

Japanese Jujitsu practitioners don't spar. They simply can't make the moves work on resisting grapplers.
Judo practitioners do spar. They focus on throwing. Generally, their throws from standing are the best of any gi-wearing art. On the ground, they are good at pinning and OK at submissions.
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioners spar. They focus on the ground game and are the best of these three arts at submissions.

What he said. ;)