A little bit of Ron Duncan History [Archive] - MartialTalk.Com

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bshovan

05-05-2006, 08:52 PM

Sensei Duncan just conducted an interview which contains a little bit of his martial arts background history. This interview appears in the, " Sensei Speaks " section on Don Bohan's Memorial Website.

Hope all enjoy it, especially Don Roley.

Bill Shovan

Don Roley

05-05-2006, 09:13 PM

Maybe we should move this to the Horror stories section.

I just read the article,

http://www.bohans-family.com/sensei-speaks/duncan-ron/rd.htm

and as usual, it is Ron Duncan making claims that he will not back up with proof, avoiding the meat of the matter in many cases and talking in such a way that those that really don't know much about the subject matter may be fooled- but not those of us that live in Japan.

Ron Duncan is a fraud that has fooled a lot of people. It is a shame. But what he does is not ninjutsu. He never had a teacher that taught him Koga ryu and I will say that until he shows proof. I could prove all of my training history if I wanted. If Duncan can't show proof of his teacher, then there is no reason to treat him like he is telling the truth.

bshovan

05-06-2006, 12:59 AM

Jonathan Randall

05-06-2006, 01:14 AM

Edmund BlackAdder

05-06-2006, 01:48 AM

Interesting read. It didn't really say much, but was interesting.

So.

Let me see.

Koga Ninjas. Aren't they extinct? I mean, as an unbroken line with direct transmission, person to person, of the techniques, concepts and training?

"The list of names of people claiming to teach "Koga Ryu Nijutsu" is quite long. The last person to be recognized as part of the Koga Ryu lineage in Japan was Seiko Fujita. His knowledge of "ninjutsu" died with him - he left no successor."
http://www.atlantamartialarts.com/styles/ninjutsu.htm

"Current status

Any actual direct lineage of the Koga-ryu ended with the death of Fujita Seiko on January 14, 1966. In an interview given to the 1963 edition of Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, a record of legitimate martial art schools, Seiko indicated that 'nobody knows this ryu today.'"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koga-ryu

"Tragically, Fujita died suddenly and left no successors to his style of ninjutsu. Indeed, there is no one in Japan that has claimed to have learned any physical skills such as stealth from him. Most of his books that he took so much time to assemble can now be seen at the ninjutsu museum in Ueno. Instead of being passed on to a new master of the Koga ryu they rot in their display cases, only occasionally being lent out to researchers. Today, many people try to lay claim to the Koga ryu. Some try to do so with truly bizarre stories, but some try to do so by claiming to have been taught by Fujita Seiko, or having their teacher being taught by Fujita. Their claims are given no credit in Japan. The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten lists Fujita's school under the Koga style, and even refers to it by is proper name of Koga-ryu XXXX-ha. No one I have seen in the west who had laid claim to his art even seem aware of the proper name of the -ha that Fujita laid claim to. His books on the art are great and of interest to anyone who is truly serious about researching ninjutsu. But aside from what can be found in these books, little else of his art seems to have survived."
http://www.bujinkanwakodojo.com/bwd_kogaryu_history.html

"Seiko Fujita and his direct Ninjutsu lineage is dead, what remains is his texts and teachings."
"The Koga Ryu Ninjutsu Society uses Fujita’s literature as a base to work from, along side with other older historical Ninjutsu documents (i.e. Bansenshukai). The rest of our studies deal with the experimentation and anthropological cultural reconstruction of ancient Ninjutsu practice. Although this will never match an authentic line to Fujita or any other historic Koga family"
http://www.freewebs.com/kogasociety/

"The Koga ryu of ninjutsu survived through the generations until the 1960s, when the unfortunate death of Fujita Seiko, the last possible Grandmaster of the Koga ryu (style) of ninjutsu, ended the ancient tradition. Before his death, Fujita claimed he did not, and would not pass on his Koga ryu to anyone"
http://www.geocities.com/bujinkancherokee/History.html

"Seiko Fujita openly told the martial arts community that he refused to teach his koga ninjutsu to anyone as he felt there was no one that merited passing on the lineage to. When the japanase scholars visited him to confirm this, he told them so. He dies before he could find someone to pass it on. This can be verified by reading in historica bio of Seiko Fujita (and I don't mean of a ninja website that claims to be of his lineage)"
http://www.network54.com/Forum/54523/message/1142917160/What+junk

"Koga-ryu ninjutsu is believed to have survived into the 20th century. The head, Fujita Seiko, died without teaching a successor. No one in Japan claims to have learned the art from him. However, years after his death many people in the West have tried to claim that they were students of his. None of their claims are recognized in Japan as being true."
http://www.answers.com/topic/ninjutsu

Looks that way to me.
I wouldn't really count anyone who learned it from a book, or from someone who learned it from a book as "real".

Don Roley

05-06-2006, 02:54 AM

Don,

It takes a big man to admit they're wrong so I see that you are vertically challenged. How many times did you publicaly say that Ron Duncan was never in the same room as Donn F. Draeger, much less all the other ignorant trashing, factually untrue and basic Martial Arts disrespectful comments to a Martial Artist you have no knowledge of. Don, whether you know it or not, you are and have been making a big fool of yourself.
Ron Duncan let out a little info that proved you wrong, admit it. I don't know what else to say as I expect some psychobabble reply from you to try to spin things. Hey, this is a start. Maybe more info might be forthcoming, but with so much negativity from those like you, who knows.
Maybe this can start a healthy dialogue, one of The Art Of Positivity.

Bill Shovan

Ok, maybe you should start off by apologizing and/or trying to prove the claims that Duncan made.

Let us look at what Ellis Amdur wrote in this post,

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=389421#post389421

I recall reading R. Duncan stating, many years ago, that one of his first teachers in JUDO was D. Draeger - I do not remember if it was either Panama or Virginia, but in that article, there was no mention whatsoever about him teaching ninjutsu. I wish there had been - Donn was still alive then, and we would have given him major sh**** about that. Regarding some other points.
1. One of the magazine articles claimed that Mr. Duncan studied TSKSR in the 50's. I've been to the headquarters, and his name is not on the board as an initiate. I was personally acquainted with the elder Sugino and, when invited to join his dojo, had a conversation about foreigners he had admitted. He had no foreign students in the 50's. Finally, M. Mochizuchi also taught TSKSR - but only to people who were students of Yoseikan budo.
2. I was a friend of Donn's - not close - but a friend. And I am very well acquainted with all of his best friends. We talked on occasion about ninjutsu, and about Fujita Seiko. I'm also acquainted with Fujita's students who were not part of any auto crash (I'm not going to mention names here - all Japanese - but there are even English language texts which mention the main individual's name). Donn definitely did not study with Fujita, who was extremely nationalist, secretive, etc. Donn did not even start studying any koryu before the mid 1960's, starting with Jikishin-kage-ryu naginata, then Shindo Muso-ryu jo, then TSKSR. Any ninjutsu that he studied was part of TSKSR - and Donn was meticulous in never breaking his oath in revealing any aspect of that, part of advanced training in TSKSR.
3. So, if one wants to assert that R. Duncan was in a judo class of Donn's - it should be easy to find location and dates. But given that Donn categorically did not do Koga-ryu, did not study with Fujita Seiko, and absolutely would not reveal aspects of TSKSR training, that line is a waste of time.

Best

Now let us look at what Duncan has claimed....

A5. "I was a 19-year-old Marine stationed in Portsmouth Virginia who was a white belt in Kodokan Judo. I was preparing for my first test (gokyo-no-waza), studying under Sensei Charles Neal at his dojo where the Major while learning a Judo technique, which was my first introduction to Capt. Draeger, corrected me.
Also, at my first shiai in Valley Forge Pa, at which time I was in Attendance for his clinic at that Shiai around the end of 1956 or early 1957 (Shufu Judo Yudanshakai).
To say that I was in awe of this high ranked Yudansha would be an understatement.
I learned much from that clinic/lecture, and was influenced greatly. This impression has stayed with me even to today... UP TO NOW.
He was a Marine officer and I was a young teenage Marine. I do recall being told that Mr. Draeger had set up that dojo so that all judokas regardless of race could have a place to train during these racially segregated times.
I am proud to list Donn Draeger as one of my early teachers along with Prof. Ernie Cates and Prof. Charles Neal (All United States Marines). All awesome and true American martial arts pioneers."

And just to be certain, let us take a look at what Tony Villanueva- a student of Duncan's wrote, about where Duncan learned ninjutsu.

His roots lie in the Koga system, according to him, because of his learning from Don Dreager who himself is associated with Mr. Fujita of the Koga-ryu in Japan.

You can find it in post #26 in the following link.

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9781&page=2&pp=20

I see no reason for him to lie about what he was told about Duncan's history since he has tried to defend him.

Let me lay this out.

According to Villanueva, Duncan learned Koga ryu from Dreager who learned it from Fujita Seiko.

According to Duncan- who has not shown any proof of even this he was a student of Draegers up to 1957.

According to Ellis Amdur, a friend of Dreagers, Draeger did not move to Japan and start learning there until the early 1960s. It is well known that Dreager stayed in Japan for most of the rest of his life, visiting places in Hawaii and the west coast while Duncan was on the East coast.

So you see, Duncan has gotten his dates so that he could not have learned ninjutsu from Draeger. He claims to have learned from him in 1957 when Draeger did not studying koryu in Japan until several years later.

I understand your anger. If you built up your image of what is a good martial artist based on Duncan and he turns out to be a rather incompetant fraud, then you hardly look good. But there may still be a chance for you to learn something real. Please don't cling to your image of a person who can not be fooled and cut off your chance of ever learning good martial arts. That is just the voice of ego talking.

bshovan

05-06-2006, 03:28 AM

When Donn Draeger passed away I was surprised how little attention in the Martial Arts media coverage of him, why? I ask myself if this was because he was non-Japanese, an American who accomplished more in the Japanese Martial Arts then most of Japanese heritage, and/or that he was so outspoken in his beliefs.
IMO I feel that many non-asians who study the Japanese Martial Arts are fixated with a belief and mentality that no one other then A Japanese instructor will satisfy them. This is only my opinion.
This site, as well as others are mainly partisan, which is fine. We all need a social outlet for belonginess. However, be fair and consistent.
I'm still waiting for a reply from Don as to the little bit of info that ties Duncan with Draeger.

Bill Shovan

bshovan

05-06-2006, 03:33 AM

Don,

Just saw your last post you wrote and I have to admit one thing, you are being very fair to me. My sincere apologies to you for anything on a personal level.

Bill Shovan

Don Roley

05-06-2006, 03:57 AM

IMO I feel that many non-asians who study the Japanese Martial Arts are fixated with a belief and mentality that no one other then A Japanese instructor will satisfy them. This is only my opinion.

Eerrrrr, so how many people here learn under Japanese instructors? I do. I don't think many others do. They study under guys who have trained under Japanese instructors in many cases. Or under folks that studied under guys that had Japanese instrucotrs. If Duncan did learn from Draeger, then he would be in the same catagory. But there is no proof. And the statements and facts presented by those that know the subject point otherwise.

The big problem with Duncan, aside from his lack of skills and knowledge, is that he lies. I would not train under a liar. I know that people can make mistakes about things that happened 500 years ago- but they should be able to prove their own teaching history. Duncan has so far refused. That is the main reason so many people laugh at him. The other is the quaility of his videos and such. It has nothing to do with his race. :rolleyes:

Don Roley

05-12-2006, 05:56 AM

Bill,
I know why you reacted the way you did. It was mean spirited and petty, but I can understand what motivated you because I have seen it in the followers of other frauds.

I see nothing to indicate that you yourself are in on the forging of lies. But you do help to spread them. You believe what you were told and pass it along. You help to spread lies, but not because of any ill will. As such, I do not want to come down on you since I save that for people who know they are lying and are actively trying to spread the lie for their own purpose.

But for a long time you have felt that Duncan is a legitimate martial artist of great skill. Your standard is based on that and you have devoted a considerable amount of time and effort into studying with people like Duncan. Your entire martial arts life is based on the idea that people like Duncan are skilled, legitimate instructors.

So, when I come along and point out the fact that he is a fraud, I can hardly blame you for trying to blast the person tearing down your entire world view.

As I said, I don't see any deception on your part, so there is still some hope for you. But you have to be brave and be willing to keep your mind open to the truth instead of clinging to all that you have built up in your self image until now.

Can you do it? Can you admit that someone that you considered a person to emulate is instead a fraud and an incompetent one at that? I really doubt you can toss away all the time and ego you have invested in your self image up to now, but I have to try. I have had successes with people even when they have been even nastier than you.

Take a look at the following thread.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31499

Take a look at some of the comments.

Well Rich...as you know i´ve seen some of his video tapes at Toby´s place...he should be in the Top Ten of the "Hall fo Shame"

I love the ninja guys that fall on themselves doing catwheels in the park. An Ron falling out of a tree to break up a mugging..
Classic

I'd say the whole thing is disturbing!
I've seen them....over a couple of scotch and cokes. The only way to watch them. Numb the senses first!
They should be paying people to take them away!

Actually… if you think about it… 7 videos of that kind of comedy is almost worth the price. You couldn’t intentionally make a martial arts instructional video that funny. AND THEY WERE BEING SERIOUS!!!

I’ve seen the ninja one a dozen times and it still never fails to crack me up.
__________________

Sorry Jack, but you're just going to have to come to grips with the fact that in the legit JMA community Ron Duncan is a joke, and a very funny one at that. We have even, on several occasions, gathered in large groups in public venues to watch his videos for comedic entertainment. Some people (Nathan) were practically rolling on the floor in laughter. No one in the martial arts community can top his comedic prowess, though some have come close (American kenjutsu, angry chick with the bo, KMA guy with the geri curl mullet), but none can compare to the great Professor-Grandmaster Osensei Dr. Ronald Duncan.
So get over it.

Even in the non legit JMA society, Ron Duncan is a running joke. In my entire time in training in JMA and non JMA, I've yet to encounter anyone who provokes such laughter when viewed.

One of the funniest viewings was at the Embassy Suites in Las Vegas that Rich mentions. Nathan was not the only one on the floor cracking up. Up here in Seattle we have had very enjoyable parties with Ron Duncan providing the comic relief for the evening.

So, whatever his talents may be in Martial arts, Ron Duncan is truly a master of comedy. I can hardly wait for Dave Chappelle to get his hands on Ron's tapes and do a parody of him. Oh, wait, there's no way you can make it any more ludicrious than it all ready is.

You may note that none of the people above list ninjutsu as their art. Duncan might have told you that people in the ninjutsu community trash him due to politics, but these people are not part of that community.

So you see Bill, if you have set your standards to the level of thinking that Duncan is a skilled teacher and legitimate then you have set your standards too low. After years of effort and investment, to acknowledge that would take a lot of courage. You would have to toss out all that you build your self image on and have to start over from scratch.

Do you have the courage to do it? Or will you cling to your ego and self image that you have invested so many years into?

Duncan has lied about being trained in the Koga ryu by Draeger. Do you want to tie yourself to a person that would do that? We are not talking about a mistake about history 200 years ago. That I can understand since some people don't let their lack of knowledge of history get in the way of them talking about it. But to say you trained with someone and have it shown that it can't be true can't be explained away or excused.

Have you noticed and asked yourself as to why he won't try to defend himself in forums he can't control? He will let you take the grief, but won't take the chance of saying something in an open forum that he could be used against him later as he changed stories.

Hey, you know he has access to the internet. He sends unpleasant little notes to me, but won't take time to defend himself in public forums outside of his control. It is not like he can't speak English, can't use the internet and doesn't care about what people think about him. So why is he letting you defend him when he won't? In his last letter to me he made the effort to try to convince me that he knew where I lived, had friends here in Japan and even mentioned lawyers. :rolleyes: But he won't register here to answer questions. Really, is this the type of person you want to associate with?

Yes it takes courage. Martial arts is about courage. Instead of clinging to what you want to believe, can you take the time to question your beliefs? After what you say you have done for him, he should not begrudge you asking him some pointed questions and then you going out and seeing if what he says stands up to the light of truth. Are you brave enough to seek the truth?

If you are, I would be willing to help you. Many others here will as well. I hope you have that courage.