lap sau exercise

[mantis]

having little knowledge about WC i cannot recognize the difference between chi sau and lap sau exercises.

any hints?

[bcbernam777]

Lap sau is generally introduced in the Chum Kui level, It really is an energy drill the same as Chi sau, however it specifically trains the one legged stance or the 100% weight that is outlined in the chum kui. (see my other posts on Chum Kui) The Lap Sau is not a rolling action but more of adirecting energy, or linear energy that utilises the stance energy to both physically and mentally trap (or freeze your opponant). The sou8rce of the specific Lop Sau movements are from the Chum Kui and can find expression in the Chi Sau.

[yipman_sifu]

Lap sau is generally introduced in the Chum Kui level, It really is an energy drill the same as Chi sau, however it specifically trains the one legged stance or the 100% weight that is outlined in the chum kui. (see my other posts on Chum Kui) The Lap Sau is not a rolling action but more of adirecting energy, or linear energy that utilises the stance energy to both physically and mentally trap (or freeze your opponant). The sou8rce of the specific Lop Sau movements are from the Chum Kui and can find expression in the Chi Sau.

In WT of Leung Ting's. We learn Lap Sau at the begining, Chi Sao comes later. A beginner takes about 10 months unitl introduced to Chi Sao. I mean most of them, of course some can get to Chi Sao earlier or some of them needs more than 10 months, it depends on the progress, but 10 months is general.
By the way, Lap Sau is the best training for me. I grasped it really easily and still finds it much more easier than Chi Sao.

[mantis]

In WT of Leung Ting's. We learn Lap Sau at the begining, Chi Sao comes later. A beginner takes about 10 months unitl introduced to Chi Sao. I mean most of them, of course some can get to Chi Sao earlier or some of them needs more than 10 months, it depends on the progress, but 10 months is general.
By the way, Lap Sau is the best training for me. I grasped it really easily and still finds it much more easier than Chi Sao.

so what does lap sau develop for you until you "qualify" for exercising chi sau?

[yipman_sifu]

so what does lap sau develop for you until you "qualify" for exercising chi sau?

To put it simply matis. lap Sau is a little coordinated type of sparring which goes a puk/punch, while we found our opponents weakness and infilitrate his defence?attacking strategy. Such training modifies reflexes and allows you respond faster to attacks. Now Chi Sao comes to improve Lap Sau in the sensing strategy. It modifies your feeling that might allow you to feel your opponent force and directs it against him. At the end it becomes combined as Lap Sau training combined to use the Chi Sao strategy in which you can fully understand the movements you gan get, feel, let go, and counter attack BOOOM. That's it.

[bcbernam777]

To put it simply matis. lap Sau is a little coordinated type of sparring which goes a puk/punch, while we found our opponents weakness and infilitrate his defence?attacking strategy. Such training modifies reflexes and allows you respond faster to attacks. Now Chi Sao comes to improve Lap Sau in the sensing strategy. It modifies your feeling that might allow you to feel your opponent force and directs it against him. At the end it becomes combined as Lap Sau training combined to use the Chi Sao strategy in which you can fully understand the movements you gan get, feel, let go, and counter attack BOOOM. That's it.

Interesting perspectiveon the Lop Sau, this is not what Sifu says it is for, but each to their own i guess

[monji112000]

Lap sao drills are for getting the basic mechanics, timing, coordination, speed ect..

Lap sao can be used in Chi sao and fighting. Its a very good technique if you can apply it. I am a little sad that no one sees that its a technique for fighting and chi sao.

Fighting examples:


someone round kicks or hard jabs
the other person Gan saos and follows with a lap sao then a knee or a palm to the face or throught.

[mantis]

Lap sao drills are for getting the basic mechanics, timing, coordination, speed ect..

Lap sao can be used in Chi sao and fighting. Its a very good technique if you can apply it. I am a little sad that no one sees that its a technique for fighting and chi sao.

Fighting examples:


someone round kicks or hard jabs
the other person Gan saos and follows with a lap sao then a knee or a palm to the face or throught.
so lap sau is not a specific exercise. it could be a short combination of basic techniques, like a block then a jab for example. correct?

[monji112000]

"lap sau is not a specific exercise. it could be a short combination of basic techniques, like a block then a jab for example. correct?"


Maybe your Sifu has shown it to you in that way. BUT, Lap sao is a specific technique. I believe it translates to something like controlling hand or trapping hand or something like that. Most WC styles have a drill called Lap sao. Which is somewhat like one person has a bong sao, the other throws a hammer type fist. Next the person with the bong sao will LAP SAO by hitting with the guarding hand and back fisting with the bong sao. Since its a drill the other person will do the same and meet the back(hammer fist what ever) fist with a bong sao. Back and forth so on.

Thats just the basics you can also elbow in directly and then tie them up. ect.. many auxiliary drills related to the Lap Sao exercise.

Maybe you are referring to a large group of techniques as Lap sao? OR maybe its just a difference of styles. I am not trying to bash your style or push my views on you so please don't take it that way.
.

[mantis]

no actually i was asking more than informing. I was never introduced to lap sau before this thread :)

[monji112000]

OK let me find some examples if I can...
here is a old clip of a simple lap sao drill. Its kind of in the background.
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/mpg2000/070500b.mpg

OK here is a few people I know going over a basic aplication for qwan sao, lapsao and a knee
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/092299t.mpg
They are going slow and working on mechanics.

Here is a Gan sao , then a lap sao then a knee against a light round kick then a punch.
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/092499za.mpg

they are not perfect examples but they can give you a good idea.

[mantis]

OK let me find some examples if I can...
here is a old clip of a simple lap sao drill. Its kind of in the background.
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/mpg2000/070500b.mpg

OK here is a few people I know going over a basic aplication for qwan sao, lapsao and a knee
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/092299t.mpg
They are going slow and working on mechanics.

Here is a Gan sao , then a lap sao then a knee against a light round kick then a punch.
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/092499za.mpg

they are not perfect examples but they can give you a good idea.
yeah, this is actually pretty good.
got it
thank you all for the information here and in my PM box.
thanks!

[marcus_p]

Hi Mantis,

One important aspect of training Chi Sau and Lap Sau is to learn about coverage. Here is a clip of my SiFu explaining the two (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8746679564261507622).

/Marcus


having little knowledge about WC i cannot recognize the difference between chi sau and lap sau exercises.

any hints?

[monji112000]

Covering is something I don't think anyone else realy talks about. Its a night and day concept, that Sifu allen explains very well.

[mantis]

Hi Mantis,

One important aspect of training Chi Sau and Lap Sau is to learn about coverage. Here is a clip of my SiFu explaining the two (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8746679564261507622).

/Marcus
Yes, this is good actually. I'll be looking for videos on Sifu Allen Lee, he seems good at least at explaining the stuff

[marcus_p]

Hello Mantis,

My SiFu tells all of us not to blindly believe what he says. He insists that we try everything ourselves and employ common sense and logic to gain the knowledge for ourselves. He prefers students to question everything.

Here's another explanation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wktuTZc6y5I) of coverage. It is such an important concept, that when applied with simultaneous offense and defense - nullifies many of your adversaries physical advantages.

/Marcus



Yes, this is good actually. I'll be looking for videos on Sifu Allen Lee, he seems good at least at explaining the stuff

[fightingfat]

Do you train Lok Sau (rolling Arm)? Surely this would demonstrate exactly what laap is for? (To clear your opponent's gaurd).

[monji112000]

I have never heard that term before lok sau. I googled it and this came up:
http://brooklynkungfu.com/quicktime/luksaomed.mov

I am not sure 100% what they are doing :D LOL but It would seem they are trying to roll.

You can you Lop Sau in Chi sao, and I can think of a few ways to use the Lop sau technique directly from Rolling hands.

But it can be used many other ways also. Watch the clip Marcus put Duncan's Diciple Allen Lee explains it well with the concept of covering.

[barriecusvein]

I am not sure 100% what they are doing :D LOL but It would seem they are trying to roll.

lok sau is just another name for rolling hands, double sticking hands or whatever. i can see how it was hard from that video though, they where, erm, poor.

[fightingfat]

That wasn't lok sau- I dunno what that was!

Lok sau is not chi sau either.

Lok sau is one person does bong and the other person does a rolling punch onto it (or does a rolling punch the other person block it with bong) then the person with bong paaks the fist away and uses his other hand to do a rolling punch which the other person blocks with bong. There are various attacks you can implement, at the basic level this involves laaping on the change and striking forward, chopping to the neck across the front or to the side or several low attacks. Bong is the founding principle of lok sau. It trains tactile response- i.e. teaches you to recognise when you have a hand free to hit. It is useful because it teaches you (at a basic level) how to deal with someone moving through your gaurd; for example, in the street, if you are confronted with an agressor and raise your gaurd, they will have to come through this in order to strike you. The liklihood is that they will grab and pull the front hand away- in wing chun we are taught 'hand freed flies forward' so you know that when you are laaped- you hit forward.

Some video here (http://ukwingchun.com/assets/videos/Lok_Sau-(RealVideo-DSL).rm) http://ukwingchun.com/Wing_Chun_Kung_Fu_Video.htm#lok

[Kensai]

That was pretty good FF. Nice to see Master Sinclair getting into his groove there. Who was the chap he was training with?

K

[monji112000]

that clip was of some people doing rolling hands (as we call it). I don't think its a good example. Lok sao or the lop soa drill (I have never heard it spoken with a "k" .. but I am American so it could be wrong). The Lop sao drill as shown briefly in other clips, does show you how in some cases to use the lop sao technique. But, in order to really gain the reaction, timing and proper follow ups you must practice using it in Chi sao and in Fighting drills. JMO



Again the clip with Sifu Allen Lee shows lop soa and the idea of covering. I believe you find that this concept of covering isn't very common in many styles.

[Kensai]

that clip was of some people doing rolling hands (as we call it). I don't think its a good example. Lok sao or the lop soa drill (I have never heard it spoken with a "k" .. but I am American so it could be wrong). The Lop sao drill as shown briefly in other clips, does show you how in some cases to use the lop sao technique. But, in order to really gain the reaction, timing and proper follow ups you must practice using it in Chi sao and in Fighting drills. JMO



Again the clip with Sifu Allen Lee shows lop soa and the idea of covering. I believe you find that this concept of covering isn't very common in many styles.

Rolling hands? Double chi sao. There was another video for that.

Lok sao, WAS what was being demonstrated as far as I've ever been taught it. Obviously what FF has been taught as well. There were admittedly a few added variations, lots of changing of attacking arms, but the basic principle remains intact.

[ed-swckf]

That wasn't lok sau- I dunno what that was!

Lok sau is not chi sau either.

Lok sau is one person does bong and the other person does a rolling punch onto it (or does a rolling punch the other person block it with bong) then the person with bong paaks the fist away and uses his other hand to do a rolling punch which the other person blocks with bong. There are various attacks you can implement, at the basic level this involves laaping on the change and striking forward, chopping to the neck across the front or to the side or several low attacks. Bong is the founding principle of lok sau. It trains tactile response- i.e. teaches you to recognise when you have a hand free to hit. It is useful because it teaches you (at a basic level) how to deal with someone moving through your gaurd; for example, in the street, if you are confronted with an agressor and raise your gaurd, they will have to come through this in order to strike you. The liklihood is that they will grab and pull the front hand away- in wing chun we are taught 'hand freed flies forward' so you know that when you are laaped- you hit forward.

Some video here (http://ukwingchun.com/assets/videos/Lok_Sau-(RealVideo-DSL).rm) http://ukwingchun.com/Wing_Chun_Kung_Fu_Video.htm#lok

A lot of people understand lok sau to be a method of training chi sau. Basically the way my sifu used it was a particular training point in poon sau (rolling arms) that would aid you in not accepting undue pressure on your arms. Here are some examples of what others refer to when they talk about lok sau.

http://www.thewingchunschool.com/html/LS.htm

http://www.yipwingchun.com/article2.html

http://www.wslwingchun.org/content/view/17/42/#Lok%20Sau

http://mywingchun.blogspot.com/2005/04/wing-chun-chi-sau.html

http://www.wingchun.ca/wingchunchisau.htm

Its common that what you refer to as lok sau is called lap sau drill or lop sau drill although i have been unable to view the video as of yet so i'm not entirely sure what it is you call lok sau yet!

[Jimi]

I thought lap (lop) sau was "grabbing hand". I use it a lot in JFGF/JKD. I have worked it from Tan Sau, Lop (lap) Grab and counter da (hit), or pak sau (slap), lop (lap) grab and da (hit). I have worked dan chi sau and poon sau (rolling hands) never realy worked lop as a flow, but as a transition from a point of contact to grab (immobilize) an arm and work to strike from there. I do not train pure Wing Chun so my opinion is not meant to offend. JMHO. PEACE

[monji112000]

you are correct lop sao is "grabbing" or controlling hand. I only speak English but from what I understand thats what it lit. translates too.

Rolling hands as in double hand chi sao and the generic lop sao drill/ the lop sao technique are diff subjects although related.

I won't comment on FF clip, use your own judgment.

I am happy to hear that JKD uses this technique its a very good tool. It raises my respect for JKD.

[Kensai]

A lot of people understand lok sau to be a method of training chi sau. Basically the way my sifu used it was a particular training point in poon sau (rolling arms) that would aid you in not accepting undue pressure on your arms. Here are some examples of what others refer to when they talk about lok sau.

http://www.thewingchunschool.com/html/LS.htm

http://www.yipwingchun.com/article2.html

http://www.wslwingchun.org/content/view/17/42/#Lok%20Sau

http://mywingchun.blogspot.com/2005/04/wing-chun-chi-sau.html

http://www.wingchun.ca/wingchunchisau.htm

Its common that what you refer to as lok sau is called lap sau drill or lop sau drill although i have been unable to view the video as of yet so i'm not entirely sure what it is you call lok sau yet!

I'm now confused. Doesn't take much admittedly. Nice links there btw Ed.

[Jimi]

Monji112000, did I get that right? Just wanted to respond, RESPECT TO THAT!
I have a great deal of respect for WC. In 2003 I visited the Inosanto academy and got to train with Guro Dan and Sifu Francis Fong. If you throw 2 punches they will have your arms tied together at the elbow. First hand fun and experience. Again I say "RESPECT TO THAT!" PEACE

[monji112000]

I think you have it.

For example you can defend against a light round kick then punch.

1. gun+ step back to protect for round kick
2. then to cover the only area you are open you can cover with a lop sao. If he is jabing then you will be good, if he doesn't you are still good. You can follow up with many tech. If you don't get the hand its ok, you don't have to grab. Not every tech can be used all the time. No tech is perfect, you have to adapt to the fight.

[fightingfat]

That was pretty good FF. Nice to see Master Sinclair getting into his groove there. Who was the chap he was training with?

K

Sifu Mark Phillips. (http://www.ukwingchun.com/Sifu_Mark_Phillips.htm)

[fightingfat]

There were admittedly a few added variations, lots of changing of attacking arms, but the basic principle remains intact.

When you get to the advanced level lok sau is not about simple attacks and big laaps, it's become about the change, because with footwork and body shape you can hit anytime you have a free arm and there's not really much your partner can do to stop it. This means stopping an attack is about controlling the roll and forcing constant change.

[fightingfat]

I think you have it.

For example you can defend against a light round kick then punch.

1. gun+ step back to protect for round kick
2. then to cover the only area you are open you can cover with a lop sao. If he is jabing then you will be good, if he doesn't you are still good. You can follow up with many tech. If you don't get the hand its ok, you don't have to grab. Not every tech can be used all the time. No tech is perfect, you have to adapt to the fight.

You'd block a roundhouse with gaan sau? :eek:

[fightingfat]

that clip was of some people doing rolling hands (as we call it).

Yup, sorry I thought I explained that!:)

[Kensai]

When you get to the advanced level lok sau is not about simple attacks and big laaps, it's become about the change, because with footwork and body shape you can hit anytime you have a free arm and there's not really much your partner can do to stop it. This means stopping an attack is about controlling the roll and forcing constant change.

Quite agree, the change is something I enjoy training, at first it was awkward, but when I stopped THINKING, and just did it, it seems to flow now. Weird I guess.

[monji112000]

You'd block a roundhouse with gaan sau? :eek:

Yes!

YES!

Its fast and hard. Its not the best for most cases, but if you are surprised it covers a large area. If he kicks hard you are going to hurt yourself though.

Qwan sao jam with a leg and Tan Jam with a leg are good general covering techniques for round kicks.
A side note they resemble thai blocks, although they are used diff.

Some pics from diff schools and skill of these teck:
www.wingchunnyc.com
has under techniques a few examples of qwan jam and a very good clip of Sifu Allen lee lop sao and then Uppercutt.

This clip shows very light sparring. Really its not fast or hard just light at the end of a long class. It has Gun Soa against a round kick plus a shin kick. We call this Gun sao kick back. It has Tan jam with the leg .

http://www.vbwingchun.com/sparring.wmv (http://www.vbwingchun.com/sparring.wmv)

here is a clip from Duncan’s Old class of some people using the Qwan Sao then lop sao then Knee.
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/092299t.mpg (http://wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/092299t.mpg)

Here is another one from Duncan’s Old class. Larry gun saos a round kick then Lop saos then knees.

Here is a circle drill and if you look carfully you will see a qwan jam with the leg.
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/112699h.mpg (http://wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/112699h.mpg)

If anyone else has good examples please post them. I just did a quick search. Keep in mind that nothing is perfect.

here is another good example
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/121599t.mpg
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/120899e.mpg
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