Junior Black Belts

[Ross]

I just wondered what people thought of this but I recently saw a black belt who could not have been much older than 5years old and thought what they had to do to get their grade?

Is this 'cheapening' or 'watering down' the value of a black belt? I know that mine took many years and a lot of blood, sweat and tears to achieve.

Is it simply a comercial belt encouraging parents to shell out a more money for something?

(Putting the cat amongst the pigeons there I know!)

How do other people feel?

Just interested to hear what you have to say..........

[MJS]

I just wondered what people thought of this but I recently saw a black belt who could not have been much older than 5years old and thought what they had to do to get their grade?

Is this 'cheapening' or 'watering down' the value of a black belt? I know that mine took many years and a lot of blood, sweat and tears to achieve.

Is it simply a comercial belt encouraging parents to shell out a more money for something?

(Putting the cat amongst the pigeons there I know!)

How do other people feel?

Just interested to hear what you have to say..........

Many schools have an age requirement for Black Belt level, such as 16. Now, considering many schools start enrolling students as young as 4, it is possible for someone to be under that min. age. Now, rather than have someone wait at Brown Belt for "X" number of years, possibly lose interest, the Jr. BB is awarded. While they are at this level, they're still learning material. Something to signify progression such as stars, can be placed on the belt. When the min. age for BB is reached, they test for it.

Speaking for myself, I've always had mixed views on people starting at a young age. I've taught for many years, so I've had the chance to see many different people. Some young kids really do show an interest, and most importantly, the parents show support. Then there are some, where it seems like its more of a babysitting class. The parents rarely walk thru the door, rarely watch their kids progression, the kids fool around and then the parents wonder why the child is not progressing. Again, I'm not saying that its bad for a 4yo to start training, but IMO, its not for everyone.

Many times, when people see a young child with a full BB, the McDojo light usually goes off in their head. The Jr. BB is a way to still keep the child motivated but at the same time, giving them time to mature.

Just my .02.

Mike

[Matsubayashi-ryu Sensei]

For my part, the way I look at it is that the kid's "junior's" program is completely separate from the adult system ... so yes, there is a 'junior black belt', but said JBB is out-ranked by any adult student. Also, I use two separate belt systems for the juniors and adults, as well as distinct classes where they don't mix (unlike many schools I've visited where there are 10 year olds and 30 year olds in the same class).

My humble 2 cents

[green meanie]

I personally don't care for the idea of a the junior / kiddie black belt. I feel like there's some things in this world that you either are or you're not and, for me, black belt is one of them. But that's just me. I don't see anything wrong or fraudulent about another school or system opting to handle this situation differently than I do.

[terryl965]

Well this horse has beaten to death, but here goes my Art is TKD and junior BB are called Pooms under the age of 15 and our governing body in Soul Korea Issue all poom ranks. It is a motivatioal tool to keep them involved until they reach that magical number. MY sons are pooms and no it did not take them twoo year, it was more like 8-9 years to get there, since I'm the head instructor I made sure they where able to act like BB before they where able to get my middle son stayed a red belt for over two years, for the simple fact he was not able to stay focus enough for me.

As you can see I believe the program has flaaws but it does have it porpuse also.
Terry

[green meanie]

Well this horse has beaten to death...

Of course. It's an old debate but everytime we gain new members it becomes a 'new' question again. :)

[Gemini]

I actually just answered this on another thread, so instead of retyping it, I'll just paste it from there.


I want to address the issue about the kids in the art. Most see it as a sign of weakness or "McDojo" ness if you will. I don't. I have 3 boys that are (as of last Saturday) all black belts. I've very proud of them and their achievements. The reason I defend it isn't because what devastating fighters they are, they're not. They're kids. But they will grow up. My youngest wasn't allowed into the dojang until he was almost 5. But he's been practicing since he could stand up. Watching his brothers from the lobby in his diaper with his white belt on. It's all he knows and it is and has always been a part of his life. They're at the beginning of what I hope will be a very long road.

My instructor started in Korea when he was 5. He was also a BB at 7. Devastaing? Of couse not. He was, in his own words, lazy and a real PITA to deal with. But it was simply his beginning. Not the age where judgment should be passed on him. Now he's 6'2" and a 6th degree master who's abilities far exceed anyone I've ever met, including other masters.

My point is, it's a long road. So the next time you pass that school, don't be too critical of those that are just starting out and what they can or cannot do. Some will go on, most will not. But none of us know which those will be. Only time will tell.

Regards,

[AceHBK]

For my part, the way I look at it is that the kid's "junior's" program is completely separate from the adult system ... so yes, there is a 'junior black belt', but said JBB is out-ranked by any adult student. Also, I use two separate belt systems for the juniors and adults, as well as distinct classes where they don't mix (unlike many schools I've visited where there are 10 year olds and 30 year olds in the same class).

My humble 2 cents

You said that you use two seperate belt systems for juniors and adults. What do you do when they transition into the adult class? What rank do they start out at then?

[mantis]

I just wondered what people thought of this but I recently saw a black belt who could not have been much older than 5years old and thought what they had to do to get their grade?

Is this 'cheapening' or 'watering down' the value of a black belt? I know that mine took many years and a lot of blood, sweat and tears to achieve.

Is it simply a comercial belt encouraging parents to shell out a more money for something?

(Putting the cat amongst the pigeons there I know!)

How do other people feel?

Just interested to hear what you have to say..........

if the kid worked hard to get it i think the kid should have it even if he's 3 years old. Yes, it doesnt mean much to have a black belt when your 5 to you, but it does mean a lot to the kid who worked hard for it.

if you are talking about "giving out" black belts to kids who have no idea what they are doing yet, yeah i object that. that's cheating!

[fightingfat]

I think it devalues the meaning of a black belt and also the public perception and deludes the practioner as to what he is/ should be capable of.

[mantis]

I think it devalues the meaning of a black belt and also the public perception and deludes the practioner as to what he is/ should be capable of.
why do you think so though?
i have seen little black belts who can fight as taught, and can do their forms properly. yes, they do have a size restriction but that doesnt mean they're no good and they dont deserve what they have been working hard to achieve.

on the other hand i have seen advanced belts who cant do a single technique

[Ross]

Sorry if this has been covered before in previous threads, but I hadnt seen one myself hence the question.

We too have junior black belts who, when they reach a mature enough age, then start in the senior class at yellow grade (although they retain their black belt). I agree that it is a motivational tool, but equally it is a business tool for targeting the parents.

Ok, another variation - in our comercialised world does it not help to promote the activity of belt chasing within a school? Then we are right back to a McDojo situation again.

Please note that I am only talking about young children who train.

[bobster_ice]

I just wondered what people thought of this but I recently saw a black belt who could not have been much older than 5years old and thought what they had to do to get their grade?

Is this 'cheapening' or 'watering down' the value of a black belt? I know that mine took many years and a lot of blood, sweat and tears to achieve.

Is it simply a comercial belt encouraging parents to shell out a more money for something?

(Putting the cat amongst the pigeons there I know!)

How do other people feel?

Just interested to hear what you have to say..........

I have nothing wrong with it, well at the karate dojo I go too dont let you have a black belt until your ready, I waited since I was four to be a black belt and when I got it I loved it, all the other students, even the older ones, respected me for getting it. I was the yougest boy with a black belt at my dojo:D

[beau_safken]

BB's are all relative anyway. Doesn't matter about all the years, age or whatever. Its all about skill and commitment.

If some instructors have requirements on age, so be it.
If some instructors have requirements on pretty much whatever, so be it.

Just because you have a belt doesn't mean it matters to the next person, its all relative.

[bobster_ice]

BB's are all relative anyway. Doesn't matter about all the years, age or whatever. Its all about skill and commitment.

If some instructors have requirements on age, so be it.
If some instructors have requirements on pretty much whatever, so be it.

Just because you have a belt doesn't mean it matters to the next person, its all relative.


Hmmm...Good point.

[phlaw]

As long as they differ from adults I have no problem with it.

I know in my school a Junior student will never outrank an adult, so a junior blackbelt is technically lower than an adult orange belt.

[fightingfat]

why do you think so though?

I suppose it depends on what you think consitutes a black belt?

[mantis]

I suppose it depends on what you think consitutes a black belt?
well i guess this goes back to the other thread about the 2 schools: whether you have to only know your forms to earn a black belt, or you have to know how to fight to earn it.
I find that most people think black belt is the top level of the art, like if you have BB then you must really good. but i think black belt is the first level where "you kind of know what's going on"

[green meanie]

why do you think so though?
i have seen little black belts who can fight as taught, and can do their forms properly. yes, they do have a size restriction but that doesnt mean they're no good and they dont deserve what they have been working hard to achieve.

The reason I don't agree with it -and again this isn't finding fault with schools / systems that condone it, this is why it doesn't happen in my school / system -I look at black belt as an instructor rank. And because I can't imagine trusting a 7 - 10 year old with that kind of responsibility, I can't see them in a black belt. Not finding fault with how anybody else is doing this, that's just how we do things.

[bushidomartialarts]

I suppose it depends on what you think consitutes a black belt?

which has a lot to do with why we have junior black belts in my school.

a black belt represents years (3-5 on average these days) of hard training and dedication. it represents personal growth and development as a result of the sweat.

if a 7 year old puts in the time and the work, why would somebody deny her the rewards when the time comes?

we have junior black rank, then senior black followed by 2nd dan, etc. since we don't have a lot of ego running around our school, nobody's asked if junior black outranks senior brown. which is good 'cos i haven't figured that out myownself.

we do have an age limitation of 15-16 for senior black, but i'm already beginning to question that.

[still learning]

Hello, A child under 7 years old(even up to 12) really do not understand the concept of what a Black belt is.

Every school has a right to promote anyone and at any age...there choice. No right or wrong here!

A five year old Black belt...can he teach the class what he knows?

We have junior BB's(sixth levels) but have train for 5-10 years and cannot be promote to Adult black belt till at least 16 years old. if they started as peewees,and juniors...than they have more requirments before reaching an Adult BB.

It is like giving a 5 year old,a licence to fix cars, sell real estate,drive a car,teach martial arts....Black belt is also about maturity ....just my thoughts on this........Aloha

[Gemini]

Hello, A child under 7 years old(even up to 12) really do not understand the concept of what a Black belt is.

Even the adults on this board often don't agree on the concept of what a Black Belt is, so why would the children? Apples don't fall far from the tree, eh? :)

[mantis]

Even the adults on this board often don't agree on the concept of what a Black Belt is, so why would the children? Apples don't fall far from the tree, eh? :)
yeah, i was gonna say it seems i dont even realize the concept of a black belt either!

[Gemini]

yeah, i was gonna say it seems i dont even realize the concept of a black belt either!
LOL! You're in good company!

[terryl965]

Hello, A child under 7 years old(even up to 12) really do not understand the concept of what a Black belt is.

Every school has a right to promote anyone and at any age...there choice. No right or wrong here!

A five year old Black belt...can he teach the class what he knows?

We have junior BB's(sixth levels) but have train for 5-10 years and cannot be promote to Adult black belt till at least 16 years old. if they started as peewees,and juniors...than they have more requirments before reaching an Adult BB.

It is like giving a 5 year old,a licence to fix cars, sell real estate,drive a car,teach martial arts....Black belt is also about maturity ....just my thoughts on this........Aloha

Sorry to dis-agree my son is 12 and is a 2nd poom kukkiwon certified and he can train the class, even the adults that know him give him respect for his knowledge of TKD. I love this kind of B.S. if a nine year old can go to college and get a degree from a major university he is a prodigy but if a 12 has a BB it is ******** what a set of double standers some of you have.

By the way I'm not trying to start that argoment again but we as a society has to ubderstand what is involved.
He trains 2-3 everyday plus goes to school has a straight a average is on the honor roll, is the most polite young man I personnaly know but yet he can't train a class. i hope at the Meet and greet some of you are there to see his attitude and then judge.
Terry

[Gemini]

Sorry to dis-agree my son is 12 and is a 2nd poom kukkiwon certified and he can train the class, even the adults that know him give him respect for his knowledge of TKD. I love this kind of B.S. if a nine year old can go to college and get a degree from a major university he is a prodigy but if a 12 has a BB it is ******** what a set of double standers some of you have.

By the way I'm not trying to start that argoment again but we as a society has to ubderstand what is involved.
He trains 2-3 everyday plus goes to school has a straight a average is on the honor roll, is the most polite young man I personnaly know but yet he can't train a class. i hope at the Meet and greet some of you are there to see his attitude and then judge.
Terry
Well, you and I are pretty much on the same side of the fence on this one, but I do have to address one point. It goes a little past the junior BB debate, but does directly relate.

As my Sabumnim explained it to me, the whole reason the Kukkiwon devised the junior BB program was to allow kids that have the capability to advance. We're good so far. We both have 3 sons that have done just that. BUT...there is a limitation to that. They cannot become Masters at the junior level. Why? It's not because they're not physically capable, nor that they don't know the material. It's because as a general rule (your situation as others may be different) but again, as a GENERAL rule, adults will not follow child leaders. A class here and there, maybe, but "Hey, here's your new instructor from now on". Nope Ain't gonna happen. History taught them this doesn't work. The lesson made perfect sense to me because when I started, my instructor (being much younger then) looked like a teenager. My first comment (being an ignorant newbie) was "I'm not training under him! He's just a kid!". I never said it wasn't foolish, but it is reality.

As far as still learning's statement. Personally I don't agree with it, but to reference my comment above, I think the response from the board as a whole shows how subjective the answer is.

[still learning]

Hello, We have junior black belts, my son is one of them. There is requirements to be an Adult black belts in our school system.

Juniors BB takes longer for promotion to an Adult BB's. There belts have a white strip in the middle. (for brown and black junior's level).

Should 5-8 years olds be Black belts? ...even at junior level? ....not sure about this....I come from old school traditions.....answer is NO. ...today..who cares....there is NO standards for being a Black belt.

If fact...look around....everyone can be one and it does not take much to earn or received a Black Belt. It has loss it meaning in todays market.

There are some schools....it means alot...others just show up and you can get one..... Aloha

[Brandon Fisher]

The youngest I would consider promoting a kid to black belt is 12 and that would be a junior rank. Adult black belts must be no younger then 15 in my system and thats if they are exceptionally good at what they do and how their maturity is.

[bushidomartialarts]

yeah, i was gonna say it seems i dont even realize the concept of a black belt either!

every time i think i've got it figured out, something comes along that makes me go 'hey, wait...'

[bushidomartialarts]

Should 5-8 years olds be Black belts? ...even at junior level? ....not sure about this....I come from old school traditions.....answer is NO.

dunno about this one. now in theory our youngest students start at age six. if it takes a minimum of three years (usually 4 - 5 if they start that young), then they'd have to be 9 or 10 just because of how time works.

on the other hand, if some 7 year old had started at four, did the work, showed great talent, knew the material back and forth, and showed a maturity for age equal or to what we'd expect of a teen or adult, then why not?

a part of me winces at the idea, and another part winces at making him wait 9 more years for senior black, but i can't think of many rational arguments to prevent it.

[Brandon Fisher]

Jason,
Making them wait is my issue also. I have a hard time with both aspects of it.

[MartialIntent]

Even the adults on this board often don't agree on the concept of what a Black Belt is, so why would the children? Apples don't fall far from the tree, eh? :)
Good point!

I like the idea personally. I don't automatically respect a child or junior just because they hold BB status - any more in fact than I'd automatically respect an adult BB. Respect is a thing that naturally must be earned. But genuine attempts at hard work and diligence in young people should be encouraged and not belittled by sour old guys and gals like us, lamenting for the day when kids were seen and not heard. For me, I respect such commitment and drive in kids and young people and I think it should command respect from us to them not necessarily as we respect other adults but we should surely respect them as young people trying their hardest to show the world they really have strong character.

Does it de-value my BB status as an adult? Why would it? My BB status and the person I am as the holder, is not dependent upon anyone else. I would not wish to be graded relative to another BB but on my own merit as measured against the standard of my art. Likewise, if I achieve the standard, I think I rightfully should receive the award. I'd think it unfair and hypocritical if there was a decree saying I couldn't be awarded a BB because I was too short or a girl or needed contact lenses... I'm trivializing - fair enough, but just to make the point that any discrimination implies hypocrisy.

Regarding junior BBs, I think the old McDojo argument is perpetually wheeled out as a strong argument when really it is little more than a thin veil over a little resentment and maybe a litte insecurity in our own achievements and ability.

Respects!

[Ross]

Good point!

I like the idea personally. I don't automatically respect a child or junior just because they hold BB status - any more in fact than I'd automatically respect an adult BB. Respect is a thing that naturally must be earned. But genuine attempts at hard work and diligence in young people should be encouraged and not belittled by sour old guys and gals like us, lamenting for the day when kids were seen and not heard. For me, I respect such commitment and drive in kids and young people and I think it should command respect from us to them not necessarily as we respect other adults but we should surely respect them as young people trying their hardest to show the world they really have strong character.

Does it de-value my BB status as an adult? Why would it? My BB status and the person I am as the holder, is not dependent upon anyone else. I would not wish to be graded relative to another BB but on my own merit as measured against the standard of my art. Likewise, if I achieve the standard, I think I rightfully should receive the award. I'd think it unfair and hypocritical if there was a decree saying I couldn't be awarded a BB because I was too short or a girl or needed contact lenses... I'm trivializing - fair enough, but just to make the point that any discrimination implies hypocrisy.

Regarding junior BBs, I think the old McDojo argument is perpetually wheeled out as a strong argument when really it is little more than a thin veil over a little resentment and maybe a litte insecurity in our own achievements and ability.

Respects!

Thanks for your imput. I don't think I'd go as far as to say that I have any resentment or insecurity about my own grade level - I think I see what you mean but in my case this dosen't really apply.

I just saw this young child and wondered what other people thought about the whole issue as I havent really heard their views.

Question: so in the old, traditional martial arts originating out of China and Japan, how did they grade? They had children starting with them but did they grade at a different pace? Or something else? I'm speaking blind here as I genuinely don't know, but if anyone can shed some light I'd appreciate it.

Thanks to everyone for their toughts.

[green meanie]

Question: so in the old, traditional martial arts originating out of China and Japan, how did they grade? They had children starting with them but did they grade at a different pace? Or something else? I'm speaking blind here as I genuinely don't know, but if anyone can shed some light I'd appreciate it.

The ranking system as we know it is a relatively new thing. There was no such thing as a 'black belt' in anything until Kano created a ranking system for his Judo. The other arts started to follow his lead soon after.

[Matsubayashi-ryu Sensei]

You said that you use two seperate belt systems for juniors and adults. What do you do when they transition into the adult class? What rank do they start out at then?

It depends on the individual, I've had them test in any where from gokyu (first adult rank) to ikkyu (senior brown belt) ... but never EVER will one test directly for black belt. In a discussion with my instructor last month, we both came to the conclusion that we're going to limit the juniors coming into the system to nikyu (brown belt) ... there seems to be a distinct trend of juniors not making the transition and dropping out before black belt. So we're both lengthening the time in the adult system so they can better adjust to the demands of the adult system.

Windy and verbose, but I hope it helps. :-)

[terryl965]

Well, you and I are pretty much on the same side of the fence on this one, but I do have to address one point. It goes a little past the junior BB debate, but does directly relate.

As my Sabumnim explained it to me, the whole reason the Kukkiwon devised the junior BB program was to allow kids that have the capability to advance. We're good so far. We both have 3 sons that have done just that. BUT...there is a limitation to that. They cannot become Masters at the junior level. Why? It's not because they're not physically capable, nor that they don't know the material. It's because as a general rule (your situation as others may be different) but again, as a GENERAL rule, adults will not follow child leaders. A class here and there, maybe, but "Hey, here's your new instructor from now on". Nope Ain't gonna happen. History taught them this doesn't work. The lesson made perfect sense to me because when I started, my instructor (being much younger then) looked like a teenager. My first comment (being an ignorant newbie) was "I'm not training under him! He's just a kid!". I never said it wasn't foolish, but it is reality.

As far as still learning's statement. Personally I don't agree with it, but to reference my comment above, I think the response from the board as a whole shows how subjective the answer is.

Gemini you are right my son no matter how good will wait until he ever gets is 4th. The Kukkiwon needs to have a minimum age of 30 for that but sadly enough they do not. Then again I'm his instructor so he will wait until I say so maybe 29http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif
Terry

[Gemini]

Gemini you are right my son no matter how good will wait until he ever gets is 4th. The Kukkiwon needs to have a minimum age of 30 for that but sadly enough they do not. Then again I'm his instructor so he will wait until I say so maybe 29http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif
Terry

29! Man, that's brutal! Mean ol' dad...:wink2:

[MJS]

Gemini you are right my son no matter how good will wait until he ever gets is 4th. The Kukkiwon needs to have a minimum age of 30 for that but sadly enough they do not. Then again I'm his instructor so he will wait until I say so maybe 29http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif
Terry

This is where the difference is people comes into play though. If your son is 12 and a 2nd, and the Kukkiwon sets a 30yr of age minimum, if I'm reading this right, then your son has to wait 18yrs.?

I'd have to say that your son would be the exception to the rule, as I certainly can't see many other people, children and parents, waiting that long. I'd imagine they'd probably quit the school and go to another that would promote their child w/o having to wait.

Mike

[Gemini]

I'd have to say that your son would be the exception to the rule, as I certainly can't see many other people, children and parents, waiting that long. I'd imagine they'd probably quit the school and go to another that would promote their child w/o having to wait.

Mike

It's not, it's 18.

[MJS]

It's not, it's 18.

See what happens when you don't read the post thoroughly before replying!!:whip:

Thanks for the clarification!:supcool:

Mike

[Kwiter]

My girls train and get Belt Ranks but under I think 13 they have a white stripe in the center. The material doesn't seem the same either, They are training in American Kenpo but I see some techniques for Yellow belt they haven't been taught as yet and some strikes substituted from them such as Delayed Sword.

I'm ASSUMING this is because they are juniors tho i'll be asking their Sensei about it.

[stone_dragone]

The dojo in Tennessee that I train with has three different levels of black belt, separate from degrees. They use Junior, Youth and Adult black belt. Junior black belts are denoted by a blue stripe per degree, yellow for youth/teen and red for adult. Each level has degrees, but junior degrees disappear once they enter the youth ranks and then the youth ranks disappear once they test for their adult shodan.

In the ATA, there are no youth ranks. A student that has met the standards is promoted. Promotions are halted after 3rd degree, however, since one needs to be a certified instructor to be promoted to 4th and, I'm not sure on this one, there are certain age requirements after third as well.

Personnally, I don't agree with junior black belts, youth black belts or anything of the sort, but that's just me. I base that on my own personal experience and expectations. I firmly believe that recieving a black belt is just as much subjective and maturity based as it is objective and standards based. While each instructor has their own picture of what a black belt should be and shouldn't be, I stick to what I've said before...A black belt is nothing more or less than the instructor's reputation.

My two bits...

[DuneViking]

Greetings,

Traditionally, our GM has refrained from accepting students under 14 in the past. To obtain 1st Dan is 3-3.5 years, so junior BB or Pooms were not a question.

Recently we have been accepting younger students. We have developed a seperate ranking system for those (4-9) that encompases most of the requirements for the first adult rank test-9th gup. Testing time is variable and depends not only upon techniques, but attitude and developing maturity.

If one progresses from junior 5th gup (new student or 15th gup) thru junior 1st gup (11th gup adult) they may be admitted to an adult class as a 10th gup, but allowed to continue to wear their junior belt. They are out ranked by any adult until they pass their first adult test (9th gup).

Continuing progress is logically tied to thier maturity development as well as techniques. The minimum class time requirements apply only so long as the student shows appropriate maturity development, and time is no guarantee of testing recommendation, whether junior , teen or adult.

In developing this system, we have had one exception. 2 of our students had a grandmother and grandfather dying of cancer, wishing she could see them test for their BB. We had 3 students that started together in the same cohort, and after much thought and contemplation, we ran the idea of allowing them the OPPORTUNITY to accellerate their training past our GM. Their ages were 9,14 and 14 .

We developed a contract stipulating what was expected of them and included strict ethical and maturity codes as well as training with the GM class and many extra classes. All students were of exceptional ability to start. They were about a year into their training when this issue came up. Any breach of the contract would have cancelled the opportunity and I told them personally, we were expecting them to act like adults and that it would be extremely difficult and it was. The hardest part was teaching them from the head up. They are kids.

They had some issues at times thinking others were getting preferential treatment, comming close to rebellion. We explained to all of them together what was at stake and they could not afford to act that way if they wanted to succeed. Amazingly, they began to slowly change their attitudes, one was so exceptional, we had almost no maturity issues at all. We kept the pressure on and they became tempered and matured quite well. They are still kids, but very mature and capable. They surpassed requirements in forms and even the 10 yr old (who looks about 5-7) can break 2 bricks (yes, with spacers) with an axe kick, the older boys can do 6 (with spacers) with a palm heel. Their grandfather was able to attend, but sadly, their grandmother had crossed over about 1 month before they tested, so her photos were placed on the testing board table. We do not plan on doing this again. :erg:

[tshadowchaser]

I'll chime in late on this thread and say i have seen a few young black belts ( 12-14 years old). I have seen way more in younger ages that may have worn th belt but lacked something
I personaly do not belive in the JR. ranking of Black belts. But then my stanfdards and my thinking on what i demand of a person to be a black belt in my system differ from what many require in their system.
If the person is not responsible and if i cant trust that person to stand behind me with a loaded weapon they will never be a black belt in my system it and that will disallow all childeren. I think a BB must have mental as well as physical strength and have the ability to think on their feet.

[DeLamar.J]

I just wondered what people thought of this but I recently saw a black belt who could not have been much older than 5years old and thought what they had to do to get their grade?

Is this 'cheapening' or 'watering down' the value of a black belt? I know that mine took many years and a lot of blood, sweat and tears to achieve.

Is it simply a comercial belt encouraging parents to shell out a more money for something?

(Putting the cat amongst the pigeons there I know!)

How do other people feel?

Just interested to hear what you have to say..........

Just another example of bullshido. Get use to it, because it is going to get worse.

[tshadowchaser]

get more sokes get more jr BB so they can be 5th dan at 15.
yes it keeps the money flowing in because mom and dad can say "oh my little jonny/jenny is a black belt . now next week they will learn to tie their shoes"

[Jimi]

I can easily accept that there are child athletes who can earn the rank of Junior Black Belt, which is traditionaly not the average case. Here in the states, once a parent sees that another exceptional child has reached as far as Black Belt rank, they immediately want their child to be able to acheive that rank as well. Sorry mom and dad, but little bobby is not as special as adam, is not something a paying parent wants to hear. I am not saying that all children are not worthy of such rank, just not every child. Some schools do use a junior rank as a way to keep paying families in the school a little longer. Many children reach junior black belt and see that to retain a black belt they will have to continue to train and test again at an older age, so they quit and go on to soccer, football, basketball etc...Some children take the junior black belt and leave, saying at an older age, I used to be a black belt. I do not beleive that a large percent of those children gaining junior black belts stick with it. I've seen it. I do not disagree that a child can be worthy of it, just as long as the rank is not given to keep little power rangers happy.

[DeLamar.J]

Giving a child a black belt, is like giving a child the rank of sergeant in the military.

[Jonathan Randall]

Giving a child a black belt, is like giving a child the rank of sergeant in the military.

I disagree. There are many junior ROTC programs that award CADET ranks, including sergeant, to young students who meet the requirements. A JUNIOR Black Belt, to me at least, is a CADET rank and students shouldn't be denigrated, IMO, for holding it. The only problem, IMO, that arises is if the INSTRUCTOR doesn't make clear that it is a junior grade and that the child is not equal in size, strength, experience, or skill to an adult Dan. Barring possible issues of false confidence, which are instructor and parental issues, I see no problem with it - even if I would not award such grades myself. I'd prefer folks spent less time worrying about what others do. :)

[Blindside]

We have one set of requirements for black, if a child can meet them great, we'll test them when they are ready. As of now, with our school being in continuous operation for 32 years, the youngest student to be tested for black was 16, with about 11 years of time in.

Lamont

(Actually, there is one requirement that our Jr. blacks can't do and that is the full contact fighting on the test, they do that when they reach 18.)

[bushidomartialarts]

If the person is not responsible and if i cant trust that person to stand behind me with a loaded weapon they will never be a black belt in my system it and that will disallow all childeren. I think a BB must have mental as well as physical strength and have the ability to think on their feet.

that's an interesting standard. not sure i agree with it but i like the sentiment.

under that yardstick, there are 10 year olds in my system i'd give a BB to sooner than most adults i know. not that they know how to use a firearm, but in principal...

kids are starting younger and younger in the martial arts. (i had someone call and ask if we'd start their 2 year old...). some stay, and the teenagers i know who grew up inside the dojo are remarkable people. i'd trust their intent farther than almost all adults i know, and i'd trust their ability farther than most.

[bushidomartialarts]

interesting side question here, one we're dealing with in my school and was touched on in an earlier post.

i have no problem with a 12 year old BB (senior rank BB) who has the size, maturity, ability and time in rank. black belt only means that you know enough to begin learning.

my problem is with the resulting math. most traditions i'm aware of give time in rank requirements of waiting a number of years equal to either your current dan or your coming dan (i.e. wait one or two years for 2nd dan, then 2 or 3 years for 5th).

that means, if the student was dedicated and trained hard, a 12 year old BB would be eligible for 2nd dan at 14, 3rd dan at 17, 4th dan at 21 and 5th dan at 26.

while i have no trouble with the initial BB rank, something in me rebels at a 5th dan under the age of 30.

maybe i'm just jealous, but somewhere along the lines i believe there's life experience and wisdom in the equation.

[Gemini]

maybe i'm just jealous, but somewhere along the lines i believe there's life experience and wisdom in the equation.
In the case of the WTF, that's exactly why there are both pooms (juniors BB) and minimum time requirements involved between all levels. Keep in mind, just because you're talking about minimum requirements, doesn't mean the practitioner will be promoted. I've only known a few that have actually acheived that rank by that age and I'll be the first to say I was in awe of what they could do. I would even go as far as to say that it's rare to find someone unqulaified at that rank. Usually, they've either quit or created their own system, naming themselves 20 dan.

[evenflow1121]

I dont knock people for doing so, but I personally would never do. A shodan is a shodan, Jr. BB is not really a rank in my opinion just a way to fill in a gap, you re somewhere between your last colored belt and your bb but somehow you do not meet the requirements for shodan, thus, you should not wear a bb. But thats just me.