Is there anyone out there who can do this? It sounds like an utter load of crap to me, but some people vehemently insist they've seen it, had it done to them, whatever.
Or if someone claims to be able to do it, they won't demonstrate on me, "oh, it's too deadly, such an action would be against the eternal Tao, blah blah blah."
So I hereby volunteer to get hit by it, if anyone out there can indeed do it. I've been hit my Tai Chi stuff before (one of my fellows was a Daijiquan exponent for awhile and he hit me across the room, which was cool, except unapplicable because he needed so long to get it ready...shades of the one inch punch!) and am respectful, but I really want to see if this is really doable!
Refutations are also welcome.
:asian:

See these threads:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=434&highlight=mooney
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3304

on occasion my old instructor, han would strike me in the two man fighting set. alot of times i didnt really feel it until quickly afterward (after being uprooted, or when i was on the floor), and then i would feel pain that next day from the strike. but i wouldnt go so far as to say he never actually touched me, more like he hit me, but focused the energy into my body so the full force was realized after a short delay.

ive heard accounts of qi throwing, but i havent seen anything convincing, yet.

I've never seen anybody get blasted, but I've seen my instructor do some stuff I wouldn't believe if somebody told me.
1 of the things he did was throw me 6 meters away: it was a kind of combined forces, my movement and his throw, but still awsome.

This is explainable (dont' know if one can say that), but some of the other stuff he did was just weird. But still I don't believe that people can "blast others way".

Sorry, no disrespect.

/yari

For evidence of this skill watch Episode 2...Darth Maul made it look easy................:jedi1:

Yea, and that old master in the beginning of Gordon Lius training in 36 Chambers!! (how many times have you read the sutras?,,,BLAST!!!:D )
My Tai Chi instructor showed us a push hands variation that you do blindfolded and palms facing each other not touching, one person leads and the other follows, feeling for the qi.
None of us in the class is quite at that level yet though lol.

Kong, if you have a loose blindfold and good eyesight you can do this drill to the utter amazement of your class mates.

Hey yea, have to try that :D
Unfortunately I`m nearsighted so it might not work out to well anyways,,hm,,,
Btw, my instructor wasn`t doing this as a big demo of magical qi powers or anything like that if that`s how I made it sound. It was more like something he just mentioned sort of off-topic while explaining about sensitivity in push hands. :rolleyes:
It would be a great accomplishment though,,,

One of the foremost exponents of the no-touch thing visited a CMA school and some of my students attended. One of my seniormost students is also a certified hypnotherapist and he was convinced that the fellow was simply using the power of suggestion on the seminar attendees.
Needless to say, the technique somehow failed when the fellow tried it on him....

While I believe that moving an object without touching is possible (as per magnetism, for instance), I do NOT believe that this new "fad" we see in the CMA seminar circuit is true.

Nice show, though......:D

One of the foremost exponents of the no-touch thing visited a CMA school and some of my students attended. One of my seniormost students is also a certified hypnotherapist and he was convinced that the fellow was simply using the power of suggestion on the seminar attendees. mmnn interesting I recently watched a TV magican do something similar....he was in a martial arts studio and 'punched' a guy but never actually connected and the guy doubled up in pain......yes easily staged, but to make the trick more convincing he did the same from the back and again the guy doubled up in pain.....the class was in awe at this non martial artist who managed this great feat, but the bit they don't show was the magician priming the guy before hand.....NLP style, so as he was about to 'punch' he was actually giving the victim a cue.......that the victim or the audience was not aware of......

The problem with this kind of fakery, though, is that we actually have martial arts people (well, they claim they are) putting on the same kinds of shows. They holler "chi" to convince the audience.
Consequently, various anti-chi folks are supplied with plenty of ammunition to use in their efforts to "prove" that chi doesn't exist.
These kinds of shows hurt our image and give us all a black eye.

Buddhism, in particular Zen and Vajrayana Buddhism, believe that once an individual becomes enlightened, he realises how the phenomenon in the world are an illusion and create his own phenomenon. i.e. he has supernatural abilities. This isn't chi kung or anything, it's a much higher level than that and the legends claim masters could walk on water, become invisible, acquire precognition and more. In Varrayana, typical powers developed through meditation are tumo (the production of mystic heat as to withstand bitter cold with only little clothing) and lung-gom (whereby the meditator can travel over great distances apparently effortlessly and at a tremendous speed).

Indeed, the First Patriach of Zen Buddhism, Bodhidharma, is said to have travelled to China from India and crossed the river Ganges by walking on the water I believe. For more info on this I reccommend reading The Complete Book of Zen by Wong View Kit.

your friendly fiend
D

Originally posted by the_kicking_fiend
Indeed, the First Patriach of Zen Buddhism, Bodhidharma, is said to have travelled to China from India and crossed the river Ganges by walking on the water I believe.

And that other historical figure, Yeshua bin Joseph, a.k.a. Jesus Christ, is credited with walking on water, turning water into wine, creating sufficient amounts of food from a few fish and a loaf or two of bread to feed hundreds of people, healing the sick, curing the blind, and bringing the dead back to life...

But does anyone notice that, while there are all sorts of theories of how to develop these powers (both the no-touch knockouts, the distance striking, the Empty Force qigong as well as all the pseudo-spiritual stuff), there are no verified reports of such things having been done for hundreds and thousands of years?

Why is that, do ya think? :confused:

I think it is primarily due to the fact that such things are pretty darn unlikely to have ocurred in the first place!

I'm not trying to stick a monkey wrench in someone's personal religious beliefs - religion tends to require the fantastic as a qualification of the divine - just to point out that with all the folks wandering around today, with the advent of the internet, CNN, and other high speed methods of information transfer, we sure aren't as inundated with reports of the supernatural as you would think (given the vast number of people claiming such powers).

Kinda makes you wonder what is going on? Perhaps it is because all the people that claim such otherworldly abilities are simply so spiritually developed that their sense of humility and reverence for their divine gifts is such that they do not pursue fame... Or maybe its because Empty Force and other such things are crap.

I'm not talking about regular qigong practices that are applied via actual physical technique. I'm talking about the whole Darth Vader Jedi Master I'm Gonna Do Bad Stuff To Ya Without Ever Coming Into Contact With You sort of stuff...

Or maybe we simply haven't had any spiritually developed people in the past few millenia...

Whatever.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I'm not a Buddhist or a Christian or part of any other religious faction. I only have a few set of beliefs the strongest being that anything is possible and the second you limit yourself to not believing that such things can happen is the second you close your eyes to such events and will never experience them for yourself. Thats my belief, I don't enforce it upon others but I think that one has to let go before he can truly possess what is real. :) Afterall, if we all walked the same path and had the same fate life wouldn't be as fun.

your friendly fiend,
D

I dont know about all this Chi Blasting stuff, but I have definately, on a number of occasions, had people tell me they could 'feel' it when I have directed a Taichi posture towards them...even if their eyes were closed or their back was facing me... My girlfriend is really sensitive about it!!! I havent been studying nearly as long as a lot of you guys, but this is real and it does happen... any thoughts or like experiences???

Try that on some one other than your girl friend, preferrably someone who make fun of your martial art. If they stop laughing at you, that would mean something.

Maybe thats a good point. (its well accepted anyway;) )

Maybe not.

If you know about Tai Chi, then you know its not about hitting someone who made fun of your art. (with anything)
What it is supposed to be about is the generation of Qi, the distribution of Qi in the body as Jing and the issuance of that Jing if needed to provide support in defensive situations. (This kind of Qi is called Wei Qi/Defensive Qi in TCM)

The topic of this Post, as far as I can tell, is whether or not the issuance part is True or has a valid, objective, phenomenological basis. I believe that it has a phenomenological basis, but maybe not an objectively verifiable basis. I think this is the most fought over concept in the whole TaiChi world as well as having massive impact on the medical community. And 5000 yrs of Chinese experience with Qi and Tai Chi would seem to support my view---
Come on! Nobody's felt Fa Jing before???

Something that I think is a clue reguarding chi. Have you ever looked at someone in a crowded room and suddenly they turn and look directly in your eyes? I would bet yes. But if you TRY to achieve this effect you can't. So what is the square root of mushrooms under the icecap of Hawaii?

If you know about Tai Chi, then you know its not about hitting someone who made fun of your art.
i guess no body is talking about hitting someone...
we r talking about proving the existance of No Touch KO's
What it is supposed to be about is the generation of Qi, the distribution of Qi in the body as Jing and the issuance of that Jing if needed to provide support in defensive situations.
i m intrested in knowing ur definition of Chi n Jing
u r talking about Chi generation?...does that mean u don't hav Chi in u before generation? or u mean using Chi as explosive Power.

[quoyte]And 5000 yrs of Chinese experience with Qi and Tai Chi would seem to support my view---[/quote]
i didn't get it... i think Tai chi doesn't date back to 5000 yrs?
n seriously i m having problems understanding ur views

Come on! Nobody's felt Fa Jing before???
i m doing Taichi from 8 months before that for more than 1 yrs i was doing Chi kung. n in that time i was doing TKD too(still do it sometimes ) n i learnt Issuing Explosive power(Fa Jing) in TKD not in Tai Chi(my teacher was surprised to see that i know this)
n thank god my TKD teacher never talked about Chi otherwise today i was giving credits to Chi not to good body mechanics...

it's even funnier when i read about songs on XingYi n they put lots of effort on generating proper body mechanics than Chi.
chi doesn't get it's credit on any essentials for XingYi.
n i believe XingYi guys Hit ****!ng hard.

-TkdWarrior-

"i guess no body is talking about hitting someone"

-I guess you're right, my point is that a Taichi player would more than likely let someone laughing at their style just pass by since 'words can't hurt', a lot of TKD people Ive known I couldnt say the same for...

"i m intrested in knowing ur definition of Chi n Jing
u r talking about Chi generation?...does that mean u don't hav Chi in u before generation? or u mean using Chi as explosive Power."

Chi I would define as intrinsic energy or as Yang Jwing Ming defines it 'BioElectricity'. We do have Chi or Qi when we are born (according to Chinese Medical theory). It comes from mixing oxygen (Da Qi) and food (Ge Qi) inside the beautiful human machine. By developing this internal energy or qi with breathing and subsequent body mechanics practices we can build the amount of chi for storage in the dan tien. (this post is not a novella and I wont debate whether or not this occurs) As we become more adept at building and storing chi we can then start to practice exercises which focus at CONSCIOUSLY condensing the chi into a more culpable manifestation know as 'jing' or 'jin'...In TCM Jing is both energy and matter- just like physics-... this jing, led by the 'Yi', or self awareness/mind, can be emitted by conscious awareness in synch with proper body mechanics i.e. 'Fa Jing'/'Emitting Energy'. This allows an effortless (No Muscle Strength) strike to cause very much force on the surface area affected. This is known as 'Effortless Power" in most taichi books. It would seem that the debate here revolves around whether Qi...
1. Exhists
2. Affects martial efficacy
3. Can be issued as a force which affects matter
4. Is more or less important than body mechanics

My huble opinion is that each has its place and must be nourished and developed. Qi will not flow perfectly through the Luo or Acupuncture Channels/Meridians if the body is not taught proper mechanics and to relax properly. Without Qi, there would be no body to strike with... :) But Taichi remains an art that is firmly rooted in use of Qi development and not physical strength for its efficacy. You can train body mechanics all year long but if you are not sinking the qi to the dan tien you will get pushed over more than you will like. Likewise with being aware of substatial/insubstantial in rooting and double weighting.

I think your point about Hsing I Chuan is very well made. I think its hard to understand just whats going on at the energetic level when the style seems so hard and uses muscle as much as it does.
Thanks for reading guys, sorry if i sound hoity-toity but I been thinkin about all this for a long time!!! Take care! thanks TKDW!

Xingyi, at least the way we learn it in Yili, begins with the natural use of too much muscle, but is trained with an eye toward not using muscle...

Taiji is based on "effortless power," sure, but to say that Taiji makes use of no muscle is inaccurate... It takes somemuscle contraction to move no matter how large or small the movement. The issue is learning not to use too much muscle and end up impeding the movement of qi and jing. It is possible for an external style to generate an amazing amount of power - but not if the muscular movement gets in the way of letting physics do the work.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I think your point about Hsing I Chuan is very well made. I think its hard to understand just whats going on at the energetic level when the style seems so hard and uses muscle as much as it does.

The energy is derived from the intent, just like TaiJi and BaGua.

Actually, the explosive counterattacks of XingYi come from coiled energy...and though the attacks may look like they hard...if you felt the arms and shoulders of the XingYi fighter just before, during, and after impact...you would feel soft relaxed muscles in the muscles of opposition and muscles contracting quickly but not tensely just prior to impact...at impact the muscles necessary to maintain the allignment of the attack would contract (essentially turning the attacking limb into a spear)...and immediately after impact all of the muscles would be relaxed (ready to fire again, if necessary)...carry this analysis down to the ground and I think you would see the same, except that slight tension would always be maintained in the legs...keeping them loaded.

I hope this helps...
:asian:
chufeng

Cranespeadswing:Chi I would define as intrinsic energy or as Yang Jwing Ming defines it 'BioElectricity'. We do have Chi or Qi when we are born (according to Chinese Medical theory). It comes from mixing oxygen (Da Qi) and food (Ge Qi) inside the beautiful human machine. By developing this internal energy or qi with breathing and subsequent body mechanics practices we can build the amount of chi for storage in the dan tien.

u know wat that was good change for me otherwise i was gettting really bored by other definition of chi(being energy it lives in every living/non living bla blah blah)
i think chi exists from birth and Chi Generation as Improving on my Quality of Chi on physical/mental/spiritual level... it improves in the same process first physical then mental then spiritual.
i don't hav Degree in physics or expereince like Dr. Yang, but i do understand bit of bioelectricity... ;)

yiliquan n cheufeng has a good point... didn't knew xingyi gets power from coiled energy?? is that due to round shoulders/back??

-TkdWarrior-

You guys were waiting for that huh?

"Taiji is based on "effortless power," sure, but to say that Taiji makes use of no muscle is inaccurate" (how do you make those neat boxes?)
Of course, otherwise 'sung' energy becomes falling down on the floor! I guess what I mean is that when striking we dont contract the major muscle groups...and we rely on the postures to develop small muscle groups and skeletal integrity...I find this a lot easier with the upper body than with kicks...

We also concentrate on being very relaxed in Hsing I until the moment of impact. I feel big differences between the 'whole body straight line' nature of hsing i and the 'whole body circular flow' of taichi. To me the force in Taichi is 'raised from the legs, translated by the hips, expressed in the extremities' with hsing i i feel the core of the body leading from the legs in a much different way. There is no spiraling or circular mechanics to guide the chi, it has to vibrate from the whole body all at once...kind of like peng jing in taichi... 2 cents...

Oh yeah...TKDW...'5000' years...Taichi was developed into a healing martial art from the 13 basic postures around 1100a.d. by Cheng San Feng (so they say)Before then taichi was practiced as single postures and partner work. While what we call Taichi is only about 900 years old the taichi philosophy is very old and yin/yang, five elements, and the ba gua (philosophical basis of taichi) is much older, seen in ancient medical texts back over 3000 years I think....I'll do some more reading on this...

Of course there is spiralling energy in XingYi...it's just that the coil is much tighter...and your description of it feeling like a vibration is right on...

:asian:
chufeng

Just last night Sifu was discussing the rolling action of the dan tien leading the body in xing yi movements. Consciously thinking about this action helped my power saturation a lot right off the bat. I especially feel the spiraling in Hern chuan and in tsuann chuan but its also very evident in the pau chuan as a small torquing influence in the punch/posture...and there are opening and closing movements in the upper thoracic hinge....spot on, thanks a lot!

Well, i once read about an article in a chinese martial arts magazine that said the no-touch KO stuff actually has no chi involved.

What they said was that there was this story where one of the students of the great Yang Lu Chan (creator of yang style taiji) wanted to test his master's skill. During a horseback hunting trip, he attempted to shoot an arrow at yang but in the end, he was "hit" off his own horse. At least that was what everyone saw, and they thought that yang had projected his chi at the student in the no touch KO manner causing him to fall off the horse.

But what actually happened was that yang simply turned back and did a hand gesture at the student, having detected his students intent. The student, trying to avoid his master's "move" dodged to one side(reflex action) and this caused him to fall off his own horse.

The article also speaks of the writer sparring with a few of his friends, trying to learn this skill. Basically, the author and all his friends were experienced MA exponents who had practised MA since young.

In the instances where this skill worked, the user must successfully dodge his opponents attack and get to a position to hit the opponent at close range. For example, in an attack, A dodged B's punches and kicks in the front and found a chance to get to B's back. He then put his hand over B's face and B, immediately turned to one side, tried to jump away but in doing so, lost his balance and fell to the ground. Thus that is how this kind of attack works.

Thus the article summarises, this no touch KO thing actually depends on many things:
1>The good reflexes of the opponent you are trying this on. He must be able to at least try avoid your imminent attack.
2>Your ability to avoid your opponent's fierce attacks at clsoe range and throw him an attack at a vital area, like his face (but not actually touching it).
3> Your opponent must be able to see this attack coming, so you cannot perform it behind his back.
4>Your opponent must somehow feel conered.

I have seen no touch ko many times here in Taiwan but these so-called "Masters" will only do such "perfomance" on their own students and refuse any stranger's request for a trial. No, I do not believe such thing exists but I do "hope" it does just to prove our ancestors' old scriptures are true. :rolleyes:

I can't remember where I read it but, it was an article on hypnotic suggestions and stage hypnotism and how it related to "no touch knockouts". It talked about the relationship from the teacher to the student, and the student having such a high trust/faith in what the teacher says in essence hypnotizes himself to believe and react to what the teacher is saying. If a person can get you into a hypnotic state and then tells you that you're chi is weakening and you are going to fall down, or be struck and fly through the air I think it's possible that those are the results you will see and the person will believe that is what happened. The teacher may not realize that is what he is doing either, but I think the better ones (read frauds who do it all for money) do have a good study of NLP and hypnosis

There was an article about how Bodidharma (sp?) crossed the river on a reed to reach China, and how the word/symbol used was very similiar to the word used for small boat and how it was just a misinterpretation. It probably said he crossed the river in a small boat, not on a reed. I don't read chinese of anykind or speak it so I don't know if the article was correct but that it was interesting and would point it out.

"But does anyone notice that, while there are all sorts of theories of how to develop these powers (both the no-touch knockouts, the distance striking, the Empty Force qigong as well as all the pseudo-spiritual stuff), there are no verified reports of such things having been done for hundreds and thousands of years?"

Considering your so adamant in denying that the people to claim to be able to do this ACTUALLY do this, how do you think people before felt? For hundreds of thousands and thousands of years 'magic' of this type has been looked down on and disbeleived in. Instead people decide to believe in science, which brings me to...

Someone mentioned a phenomenological analysis of chi provided that it doesn't exist. My question: do you know what phenomenology means? The more respected version of phenomenology is held by Heidegger, not Husserl (which is who you must mean). In Heidegger's view, true objectivity is only acheived in Dasein (Being). This means that you can only take things as experiences, and those experiences are objectively true for you, but as soon as you try to reflectively analyse Dasein, it immediately breaks down, as you are no longer in Dasein. Thus, one would see the experience of Chi as objectively true, but reflectively analysing it as faulty. Unfortunately, this really only applies to individuals and no greater sense of objectivity, as phenomenology implies there is no such thing.

Blasting people without contact can be done... by a shot gun or similar... Chi is not magic and should not be mystified... it was the mystification of taijiquan which kept me away from practicing it for so many years... chi is the biomechanical and biological processes... including blood flow, bioelectricity etc...

See, the problem is, whenever something mythical is discovered to be real, it is no longer mythical. Chi is only mythical until you experience it, when it then becomes a part of life.

I have experienced Qi and as I stated its not the mystical force that so many in the west wish it to be... rather its what we in the west term "bio mechanics" and "bio processes"... sort of like sneakers and trainers... sneakers being a US term for sports shoe and Trainers being the UK term... same thing but different terms... not "myth" or mysticism...

At one point aspirin was considered a magical potion. My point is, for something to be mythical, it must have no grounding in reality, so when something is discovered to have said grounding, it isn't mythical. But I know what you mean about 'bio mechanics', i think. I just don't beleive its constrained to the limited view that 'bio mechanics' implies to me. Whatever though.