multiple opponent art

[hand2handCombat]

what would be the best multiple opponent art?

[7starmantis]

hehe, hope this doesn't turn into a, "my art is the best" thread, but I would say either JKD, or flowing style of Kung Fu. Praying Mantis, WL, WS, those are the first that stand out to me.


JMHO....

7sm

[arnisador]

Aikido has some advantages over other arts in this regard, in my opinion.

[Chiduce]

I would have to say as was stated before Aikido; or an Aikijujutsu System.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

[Kenpo Wolf]

If you are faced with multiple opponents, I would recommend the art of running away very quickly. If you can't run away, I would suggest using the big stick art if at all possible.

[Damian Mavis]

I think JKD has alot to offer for multiple opponents, especially if your training the "panic attack drills" alot. 3 or 4 guys dress up in light body armor and helmet and all gang up on one of them and they go nuts. Best way to see if it will work in a multiple opponent setting. Multiple opponents is just plain hard to fight against and actually come out on top but I do think JKD has the best philosophy for it.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[J-kid]

1.Run if you can
2. dont let them get around your back and make sure you can see all oppents at all time.
3 go agaist a wall.
4 dont go to the ground
5 go for the leader if you can hurt him they may retreat
6 guard your face and below the belt place
7 try to kick them back dont want 4 people swing at you at once kicking you have a better chance.
8 Do what it takes weapons anything to survive


Some basic tips for you to read
Your friend Judo-kid

[vincefuess]

Take out the easiest guy first. Break a knee, crush a larynx, gouge an eye, or break any bone that is available. That is one less guy to kick you when you are down (which is generally when the wusses come into play).

[Yari]

I would have to go with Aikido, and other arts that use flow as their basis. But Aikido pratices with mutiple attackers, and that is an extra plus.

Alot of other arts pratice one-on-one eventhough the style is good when their are mutiple attackers.

Being attacked by multiple attackers is difficult, and a good experience, because your technique usally has to be "bended" to give you the advantage.

/yari

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Yari

I would have to go with Aikido, and other arts that use flow as their basis. But Aikido pratices with mutiple attackers, and that is an extra plus.

Alot of other arts pratice one-on-one eventhough the style is good when their are mutiple attackers.

Being attacked by multiple attackers is difficult, and a good experience, because your technique usally has to be "bended" to give you the advantage.

/yari

I totaly agree. You really see your skill when your style is "bent" a little bit. Very difficult, adn hopefuly fully avoidable!


7sm

[sweeper]

I would go with kali if you are willing to carry a weapon with you, other than that JKD.. Of course I mostly say this because I practice JKD and kali :-p

Damian Mavis I'm curious what you mean about the philosophy?

[Deathtrap101]

I'd go with karate, just caus thats what i study :D . aNd we have done some multiple apponent training. I think just hwo you fight now nececerily your style. Try and just cut them down one by one each one as quickly as possible, instead of jumpin around and runnin on walls and stuff like you see in the movies:cool:

Just my opinion.take it or leave it.

[Deathtrap101]

IM an ORANGE BELT!!!(on martial talk.)

[jaybacca72]

through my experiences i would have to go with systema and jkd provided they aren't in contact manipulation distance,then i would go kenpo striking. having trained more than one opponent in jkd many times you know that during a mass attack as soon as you lift your leg to kick you are swarmed if your opponents are smart,during sytema you use all aspects of combat like using your opponents as shields for an example but you dont have to critically injure them. now the kenpo that is all together different you begin striking vital targets as opposed to the sraight blast which is good depending on the situation but a good ol chop to the throat will deefinitely get thier attention. these are just my opinions say take what you like for what it's worth.
later
jay:cool:

[sweeper]

I would point out Judo Kid was asking about a kicking art for fighting in a UFC style fight.. not an art to deal with multiple attackers.

[Deathtrap101]

what does that have to do with THIS thread??

[knifeman.dk]

Do not focus on the system too much. In my humble opinion it is the training - the way the art is taught - the instructor, that does the trick!
Mulitiple attacks can be trained for in a variaty of ways - I teach a drill called Caos-training, where one or more defenders will be attacked by multiple attackers armed or unarmed, various scenarios can be set in this drill to aim a certain focus or just to have great fun with your techiques.
In this discussion be aware that FMA not only deals with multiple attacks - with weapons, they can be as empty handed as everyone else.
And then again..... prepare the mind, feel the adrenaline rush, these are important elements for this type of training.
sincerely knifeman.dk:asian:

[Bod]

The only art I have used against multuiple attackers is bujinkan Ninpo and that worked very nicely. (Against 9 - 11 attackers!)

The footwork was by far the most important part.

Striking and kicking skills won't help much. The classic kick-boxing/karate/Bruce Lee stance and hopping about on the spot, or staying rooted to the spot will get you buggered.

Maybe Pa Kua which has footwork specifically designed for multiple attackers as the basis of the system would work well.

Ever since the incident I mentioned earlier I have kept big footwork as part of my practice. When I practice Judo I move around a lot, even if in one on one it is not to my advantage to do so, like when playing someone smaller than me.

Read Musashi's advice on multiple attackers, there is a copy on the web. Meditate on it. That's what served me so well.

[KennethKu]

Against 9-11 attackers? The footwork I use would be "Sayonara-Do"

[Kirk]

Originally posted by KennethKu

Against 9-11 attackers? The footwork I use would be "Sayonara-Do"

ROFL! Good one. I'll hafta remember that for use later!

[arnisador]

Against three attackers I used more reasoning than any one art--line them up, keep moving, try to take one out when you get them as separated as you can--and that reasoning I picked up mostly in kung fu and arnis, but the particular movement ideas from aikido.

How you actually hit them is less the issue than the big strategy I think.

There was another thread on this but I can't recall if it was here, the JKD forum, or elsewhere!

[Zujitsuka]

As mentioned earlier, 'Nike-do' (i.e. the way of running) is your best bet. If you absolutely, positively have to fight more than one attacker, there is no one art that has all of the answers. One should consult various principles rather than techniques.

For instance, Aiki concepts are great for moving out of the way and using certain throws on the fly. What I've seen of Systema I like too because they are very similar to Aiki movement. The bobbing and weaving from Western boxing will help a lot. Plus the short punches like uppercuts and hooks. Muay Thai low kicks, knees and elbows can help you create a path for escape.

Employing these concepts will not work if you are not in good shape. The famous Belgian olympian Karl Gotch said it best, "Conditioning is the best hold."

Make sure to get your muscular endurance and cardiovascular exercise in. Here is a great resource that has a couple of great workouts posted:

http://www.trainforstrength.com

Regards,

Tyrone Turner
"Zujitsuka"
Queens, NY
http://www.tyroneturner.com

[Damian Mavis]

Sweeper, I guess philosophy was an inapropriate word, guess that can mean spirituality which is not what I meant. What I mean is methodology, way of thinking, way of training.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Yari]

Originally posted by arnisador



How you actually hit them is less the issue than the big strategy I think.



This I agree on! this incl., I think, the same said earlier about praticing your "art" with multiple attackers. I'd go for the Aikido appraoch, but I've been running around in a black "dress" to many years to be objective on that.....

In this sense I agree with knifeman too.

/ari

[theneuhauser]

How you actually hit them is less the issue than the big strategy I think.

i dont totally agree with that comment. i have some experience in and out of the studio with 2-3 attackers. keeping track of the bad guys by using correct movement is important, and its equally important that you can be efficient once you engage each attacker. obviously, you dont want to waste time with any one person, so you need to know how to incapacitate someone quickly. you need good hands and feet as well. 4 weapons are better than two, right?
i also believe that once you are facing four or more aggressors, though the odds are really against you no matter who you might be.

if this is empty hand were talking about here.
my vote for ultimate multiple bad guy beater is bagua,
with northern praying mantis a close second

[arnisador]

I think we largely agree, in that I wasn't trying to say that you didn't need to hit them hard, but that many arts provide good hitting techniques, and whihc ones you use is of less matter than getting a chance to use those hits!

[J-kid]

I would use my JUdo/Jujitsu arm bars break one of there arms fingers etc, Anything to make them think twice befor attack,.
Another good idea is dont go for the weakest first it will make the stronger ones all attack at once out of rage. You need to go for the leader , try to reason and if it dosnt go well say one on one try to convince the friends not to jump in all at once then strike the leader . The surprise attack is best. If it looks like there is no way to escape the fast elbows to the heads work great to stop him from hitting you. thats just what i have to say on that.

[Damian Mavis]

Hmm do you really think its possible to pull off an arm bar on one while the others attack you? I'm assuming you mean the arm bar where your both on the ground and his arm is locked between your legs and your hyper extending it?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[J-kid]

I might on the ground , but i was talking about standing,

[D.Cobb]

What about pressure points? Why not go for the knock out? Even if it doesn't work everytime you are still gonna hurt them in a big way. Surely that has some merit.

:asian:

--Dave

[Damian Mavis]

Ya I was just a little confused because if 3 guys are rushing you trying to grab/hit/hurt you all at the same time how do you take the time to do an armbar..... wouldnt the time it takes to lever the arm be ample time for his buddies to stomp on your face considering you are stationary and your limbs are mostly all tied up performing the armbar?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[7starmantis]

I do want to say that I don't agree with whomever psoted about taking out the leader first. A pack of wolves this will work with, but if you are being attacked by 3 or 4 people at once, I think you should take out the closest or first person you come in contact with. Trying to over-think the situation I believe will only result in getting your butt whipped. Personally, 4 guys attack me at once, the first guy is getting a couple limbs broken, adn then probably being thrown in the way of the other closest attacker. There is no pulling punches when your fighting for your life.


7sm

[Angus]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

I would use my JUdo/Jujitsu arm bars break one of there arms fingers etc, Anything to make them think twice befor attack,.


Yeah, and it will get you killed. If you sit there and try and defend until you can get an arm bar in you'll be dead. NEVER seek ANYTHING in a fight, be it a lock, hit, or submission. It's very contrary to the idea of flow: acting upon yours and the opponents energies. If you seek the armbar you'll probably get stomped in the process. You can't have a plan of attack because you don't know what going to happen! You're very likely talking about your life here, so you wouldn't want to risk it by trying to get an armbar rather than trying to save/cover your ass.

First post here! I must say, this is by FAR the only really worthy MA forum I've run across. Most have been a waste of time. :)

[Damian Mavis]

Welcome Angus

hey I see in your profile you take Muay Thai, Pent jack silat, bjj ,kali... are these all taught at the same school and are you part of the Dan Inosanto/Ajarn Chai family tree? If so, extra nice to meet you, I'm training at a school in Canada that is part of that tree.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Angus]

Yes, it's part of that tree. My teacher is either the only woman or the first woman certified as a Thai instructor in the northwest (under Ajarn Chai, no less!). Pretty cool, she does demos and things with him when she can.

I've also studied pure Muay Thai (and a little Pankration) at AMC kickboxing, which is famous for all the fighters it's trained and that instruct there (Matt Hume, Josh Barnett, Ivan Salaverry, etc etc). Very cool school but didn't care much about me at the time because I wasn't old enough to compete in Thai fights. I was there for a few years though.

I'm hopefully going to take my Thai student certification soon. Hopefully, anyway. I'm planning on being an instructor.

Oh yeah, and fighting multiple attackers is bad. :D

[arnisador]

Is there a Pencak Silat approach to multiple attackers?

[Damian Mavis]

Angus, that's cool, I took my shorts certification test last May.... it was quite exciting! Good luck on yours.

Hey your birthday is one day after mine. Mines May 10th....not that this matters haha just thought it was a neat coincidence.

And I can't believe I keep mispelling Pencak Silat. woops

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Angus]

Very nice website, too, Damian! Nice breaks!

As far as the May 10 birthday, well...nobody is perfect. You were close though! :D

I don't know what Penjack/Pencak/Penjak Silat (i've seen it all ways, I don't know what is correct) says about multiple opponents. One of the problems with studying big blends is that you don't really learn each well enough, in my opinion. However, I'm curious now, so I'll see if I can do a little research on it. I'm sure there is someone who studies some form of Silat on this site who can clue us in, though.

[Damian Mavis]

I study Pencak Silat but I'm pretty new to it so can't really comment on it's applicability for multiple opponents yet. Will let everyone know in about a decade or so!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[H@pkid0ist]

Hapkido is an effective overall art. We train in all aspects of the fight, Ground, close combat, distance, grappling, etc...
We do up to 10 man self defense training. Any more than that really doesnt make a difference. Its a lot of people. The biggest danger other than weapons you have then is everyone bum rushing you at once. You have to be focused even more so when there are multiple attackers. I think reguardless of style, if you train to react to 2,3,4, and more then you will be as ready as you can be. Just as with any situation though. Don't have a set routine in mind. Let the moment and the assailant decide your technique. Its all to unpredictable.:armed: :fart:

[jkn75]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

What about pressure points? Why not go for the knock out? Even if it doesn't work everytime you are still gonna hurt them in a big way. Surely that has some merit.

Good idea (I didn't go for the obvious). I agree that pressure points are effective but I think this would come in when you counter. If you have trained in something that focusses on pressure points, you would use those techniques to attack and defend.

However, I also agree with the line of posts about the armbar. You shouldn't focus on one technique to the detriment of others, you should flow with the situation and if the opportunity to attack a pressure point comes up, then go for it.

:asian:

[Yari]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

What about pressure points? Why not go for the knock out? Even if it doesn't work everytime you are still gonna hurt them in a big way. Surely that has some merit.

:asian:

--Dave

Or what about gunting(sp?).......


/Yari

[cdhall]

Originally posted by arnisador

Against three attackers I used more reasoning than any one art--line them up, keep moving, try to take one out when you get them as separated as you can--and that reasoning I picked up mostly in kung fu and arnis, but the particular movement ideas from aikido.

How you actually hit them is less the issue than the big strategy I think.

There was another thread on this but I can't recall if it was here, the JKD forum, or elsewhere!

I am Amazed that there is not more mention of Kenpo. Mr. Parker was quoted in "Memories of Ed Parker" as saying in the early 60's that he wanted to develop an art that would allow multiple simultaneous strikes against multiple opponents. I believe this is would occur in the "Gaseous/Spontaneous" States of Motion. Also, I think it is where our "overkill" comes from in that we are training for spontaneity from early on, sequential flowing movements that do not stop due to angle, target availability, etc.

Arnisador mentions several elements that we teach and practice including Zones of Protection and Sanctuary I think, but there is a particular principle that escapes me that deals with using a natural "object" as a shield. I remember that we discussed in class before I saw Street Knight and I thought Mr. Speakman demonstrated it when he shot through one guy to hit another. He had a shield.

Hopefully Mr. C will jump in here and elaborate.
:asian:

[knifeman.dk]

I don´t think that a discussion on techiques will help - there will always be differencies, like the strenght and size of your opponent, the numbers of attackers, surroundings will change, climate will change, night or day, weapons or none, your own skill level and the level of the attackers, your capabilty of staying calm and controlling the situation (yes Yari you would call this zen:D )
I think techniques will vary from person to person, but what is good is the sharing of experience.
Have you tried using your surroundings - putting something in between you and the opponents, use different items as weapons like umbrellas - branches - newspapers - ballpens - teaspoons etc
I would run - shoot - stab - throw items - kick - punch - scream and hope for the best (and i probably missed somethings out here:rofl: )
sincerely knifeman.dk:asian:

[7starmantis]

I have seen that one point is pretty much shared between everyone here, that is to encounter multiple opponents is to fight for your life, and there is nothing regimented about that!!


7sm

[Bod]

I still go with footwork. Here is my reasoning:

You must take the attack to whom you choose, thus remaining in control.

Cyonara-Do is the art I used, but to get into a position to do a runner, you may have to get past people to your nearest available exit - this is true on the street too, when you have only one safe way to run and you know it.

Punching style can matter. I aimed a big one at the guy in the back, he evaded. One on one, you don't want your opponent to evade, I did because it gave me space to push and run through. Also the guy who first made his move was expecting the interaction, the guy at the back was surprised. If I had connected the punch he would have folded, and I'd have still had that space. I had to move that one guy, as that was the easiest route out, and he was not the first guy I interacted with. You don't always want to hit the first guy you can.

When you train for multiple attackers you can train at first to beat many unskilled people. I hope I don't ever meet that bunch again, because next time they'll probably close up faster, having picked up that little bit more skill.

They'll probably pick on someone smaller though.

[Yari]

Originally posted by Bod

Cyonara-Do

Never heard about this. please tell more....




Punching style can matter. I aimed a big one at the guy in the back, he evaded. One on one, you don't want your opponent to evade, I did because it gave me space to push and run through. Also the guy who first made his move was expecting the interaction, the guy at the back was surprised. If I had connected the punch he would have folded, and I'd have still had that space. I had to move that one guy, as that was the easiest route out, and he was not the first guy I interacted with. You don't always want to hit the first guy you can.


THis was interesting. Gives me some thoughts. Nice!

/Yari

[7starmantis]

I think he menas the "art" of running away


7sm

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by KennethKu

Against 9-11 attackers? The footwork I use would be "Sayonara-Do"


HAHA, I'm retarded:rofl: :rofl:

It's this project I'm workign on, making this video as a memorial, got my head on it, but I thought you guys were talking about the September 11th attackers! I was like, why the hell would you guys be running away from these guys! We need to defend ourselves! :rofl:

I got all up in arms about it too! Wow, that was embarrasing! I get it now, 9, 10, or 11 people attacking you! :rofl:


7sm

[Yari]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

I think he menas the "art" of running away


7sm

:eek: Ops...... Jump into that one..... Cyonara-do.... :rofl:

/Yari (goes over to lurking mode.....) :cool:

[Bod]

On re-reading 9-11 people does read wrongly. Nine to eleven sounds like time to get out of bed though, so I'm glad we got that all sorted out.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
HAHA, I'm retarded:rofl: :rofl:

It's this project I'm workign on, making this video as a memorial, got my head on it, but I thought you guys were talking about the September 11th attackers! I was like, why the hell would you guys be running away from these guys! We need to defend ourselves! :rofl:

I got all up in arms about it too! Wow, that was embarrasing! I get it now, 9, 10, or 11 people attacking you! :rofl:

7sm

:)

[Bod]

Besides I'm English. We say 11/9 or 11th Sep. .:rolleyes:

But I'm not daft enough to not know what you all mean.

And you're right - there are definately times when we shouldn't be running away.

Anybody been in a situation where you had to protect somebody from multiple attackers, maybe get them moving?

I'll tell you what happened in my case, against three attackers, with my girlfriend of the time in another post, but it was mostly luck, as I didn't train at the time, and was certainly not streetwise.

[7starmantis]

Please feel free to tell us. I can't speak for everyone in here, but it would fit this thread in my opinion.


7sm

[sweeper]

ok first off, havn't been able to get on for a few days that's why I'm so late to respond, that post I made about judo kid asking about kicking I just mnessed up, I was reading two threds at once and I guess I thought this was the other thred and couldn't figure out why everyone was talking about multiple attackers :-p sorrey about that.

Damian Mavis I know what you meant when you said "philosophy" I mean more specificly what do you dislike about the methodology?

about a standing arm bar or a cross armbar( think that's the one where you have both their legs across their body and you hyper extend the elboe with your hip) standing armbar can be applied fairly easily if your opponant isn't activly resisting, you can start it off simular to a boxing clynch (basicly grabbing their elboe and pulling in tight) than just lean back and pop your shoulder/arm up or throw your knee up, the point of the elboe has to be facing down though and you do have to get control. As to the cross armbar on the ground. The only way to get into it is to get a partial standing position and go back down (even if you are both on the ground you have to get one foot over the arm) so you have one foot checking, the other is a stomp or thrust kick to the head, I would argue that that will serve as a slight distraction, but the main thing is arching your back and thrusting your hips up, I see no reason you couldn't get this off before you hit the ground in a fall, so if you do do it it should be like in a field sport when you fall down and "bounce" right back up, if there is room you should be able to hit and come up before anyone closes, it should be done and you should be up in a split second, if it takes longer than that don't do it. (you jsut got a kick off to their face if the arm bar doesn't work let go and do something else it isn't like they are gona grapple your ancle right off).

as to the arguement that you should seek anything in a fight, I disagree, I think people should know their strengths, I'm not saying you should go blindly for a single tech no matter what and to the exclusion of everything else, I haven't seen anyone here say that you should chose an attack in exclusion of another, but if you have a prefered way of doing things you can set them up, it's probably instinctive, but there are junktions in fights whee you have a choice what way to go, if you move tards your strengths you should have an advantage (of course all things must be taken into consideration and grappling might not be great if you are getting flanked)

I think someone said something to the effect of "put your back up against a wall" ? If so I totyaly disagree with that, move away from the walls and givbe yourself some breathing room..

[J-kid]

i noted to go agaist a wall in less you plan on running because they will flank you if you are agaist a wall, THey cant get behind you and there are many standing arm bars i can applied , I dont know how to describe them but , There are many sites covering BJJ and other forms of JUDO/JIJUTSU i do a form called AJW (american Jacket Wrestling) my coach has a awsome class. works on Judo JiJutsu Wrestling and every form of wrestling.

[knifeman.dk]

If you have a wall behind you - use it. If you actually get one of the attackers smash him/her up against the wall. Let the wall be a friend. About the armbars...I once read a funny story in The Probe, off course about Paul Vunak and his full senior instructor Tom Cruise (no - not the actor) - the story was - that they had been teaching the special forces and went to a biker bar from out of hell with a few of the military guys. The story continues that they all get mixed up in a fight with all the bikers (and there where many!), and the special force team took one attacker at the time like a syncronized swimteam - and left the two PFS instructors with the rest.
The story ended with the two guys beating the group with all possible means - no special techniques but agressive attitude and the will to survive.
I don´t know if the story could benefit anyone or even move a thought - but i think it is rather neat, don´t you?
sincerely knifeman.dk:asian:

[KennethKu]

I like to see Paul Vunak going into the biker bar alone. :)

Going up against multiple attackers, cannot be a sound long term survival strategy.

[Bod]

OK, here are some of my multiple attacker experiences except for the one I detailed earlier, and the lessons I learned.

#1. This was the first time I got mugged, I was 16 and shorter then. The first guy stopped trying to steal a car with the rest of his friends, ran up to me and slammed me against a chain link fence. Great they couldn't attack me from behind! No problem, they kicked and punched me from the front. Being up against a wall and being held by one person is like being held by three people. I got quite a beating by the 5 or 6 guys.

#2. This time I was 17 and a whole year wiser, but no taller. I saw the three coming. One was bigger than me, one my size and one smaller. I said to my girlfriend 'lets move'.

'Don't be stupid' she said 'you've been jumpy ever since you got mugged that time'. They walked past, turned around and slammed my girlfriend against some iron railings. I snapped and tackled the big guy against the railings. He punched me in the eye and pulled a knife, pointing it at my eyeball.

I calmed down.

He pushed me back to the railings, near to my girlfriend. The amaller guys rifled my pockets, he rifled my girlfriends pockets and held the knife on her.

Notice a recurring theme of fences here.

My girlfriend wouldn't give up the PIN numbers to her cashcards. Big Guy threatened to stab her and was getting irate. I was thinking fast but couldn't see a way out. The smallest guy is beginning to enjoy this, and in an effort to humiliate me commands 'Jump up and down and act like a monkey'.

I jump once, twice, and on the third time push/punch the middle guy and hit the knife guy with everything I've got, grabbing my girlfriend and running pulling her along. I figure if she's running I can deal with the consequences.

I looked back and all three were sprawled on the ground, the big one on his hands and knees, looking for his knife I think. I hadn't even hit the smallest one. It must have been my Ki!

Or his fear of looking stupid if he doesn't chase us.

Or my Ki!!!! :D

Later that night the police said that he stabbed a single woman, and six months later I was unable to pick him out of a line up. My girlfriend went back to Northern Ireland to live with her mother, because she was so shaken up. I lose. Bummer.

#3. Two guys approach me, 17, and demand my cash. I run. I slip in my smooth soled shoes. I roll into a ball. I get kicked unconscious. I buy shoes with grippier soles in future.

No fences involved.

#4. Two more guys chase me, 17 1/2, taller. They catch up with me. I turn to face them. I am wearing steel toe capped boots (with grippy soles) I have now taken to carrying a great club up my sleeve, homemade from reinforced concrete, wrapped in electrical tape. I slip it down behind my leg. The biggest (and these guys were big) asks me why I ran.

I say 'because you chased me'.

He says 'I only wanted a light'.

I say 'I haven't got one'.

He takes a pen from my top pocket and says 'Nice pen'.

I say 'Yes', not moving a muscle. His friend starts looking nervous.

'Weren't you in my brother's class at school?' I ask him.

The first guy puts the pen back into my top pocket, and they both leave.

I would have hit him, and got sent to prison and my life would be crap now. Later on I stopped carrying a club with me everywhere I went.

Moral of the story - some guys can run faster than you.

#5. Finally I have taken up martial arts! I am not very good however. I am 18, and taller still.

I am walking home, through a car park (parking lot) at 1 in the morning. Four dodgy looking guys walk across me about forty yards away. Just like every incidence before they are not talking. This is a very strange way for such youths to behave.

Then they turn back and walk towards me again. Very strange. I wait for a passing car and cross the road towards them, but stop. and with a broad smile on my face follow the tail lights of the car. Then I turn towards them and smile broadly.

They do an about turn and leave me alone. Cool.

#6. Scary. I consider myself quite good at both martial arts and running by now, I am 22. I'm not so good at drinking, and it is two in the morning. I've had a great night, I am very drunk indeed, and I am in a very happy mood, full of good cheer and good will.

When I see two very grown men in the distance (40 yards?) carrying television sets I assume they are moving house at two in the morning. So I shout, thinking that I am hilarious, 'Don't nick televisions!'

Reader thinks - 'leave him to his fate this guy is so stupid he should not reproduce and contaminate the human race further'.

But I live to tell the tale.

40 Yards later I am oblivious to the fact that they have put down their(?) television sets and are awaiting my approach. One of them sort of slaps me about the neck, and I swerve drunkenly to avoid this.

I turn to look at him with a bewildered look on my face and he is standing in front of the other guy crouched holding a 12" kitchen knife out in front of him!

Lordy f&+%!!!!

The thought 'I can't fight or even run' squelches through my sodden brain.

'It's all right mate I'm drunk' I say and give him a sheepish grin.

'Well we aren't drunk', he says 'were just going about our business, now you go about yours'.

'All right mate' I said, and turned and walked away, praying he wouldn't stab me in the back.

A hundred yards down the road the cold February air hit my neck and I felt a stinging on my neck. Then I realised that he hadn't slapped me at all. I touched my neck but it wasn't bleeding.

I was so angry at myself for being so stupid, and for getting so drunk and helpless.

Three miles later, when I got home I looked at my neck in the mirror and saw what looked like two shaving cuts. I knew he'd meant to kill me, because if I hadn't swerved that's what would have happened.

No I have never been that drunk and out of doors since.

#7. I am 24 and run into the nine to eleven guys after getting on the wrong train. But you know all about that already.

So what have I learned?

Being against a fence is not good.

Just because you are feeling friendly does not mean everybody else is.

Be careful how much you drink.

Watch out for groups of people behaving suspiciously. If a group of men aren't talking, or walking as everybody else does, trying to impress each other etc. then ask why. Sometimes they have just finished playing football and they are exhausted, but this shows in their walk and the way they are carrying a ball.

Footwork matters. Wear sensible shoes.

You can talk/act your way out of more situations than you can run from or fight you way out of, but make it to the point - 'I am not worth the hassle' or 'I can't hurt you, look I'm walking'. I have also talked my way out/ ran away from other confrontations, but these weren't multiple attackers. I learned early on that you have to get a message across that will make a pretty nasty person reconsider. The only one I have found to work is 'This isn't worth it', but you have to word it carefully or they read 'I am scared'.
Certainly don't imply 'This isn't fair' which means 'Look I am really clueless'.

When you act, act explosively and decisively.

That's all folks.

[D.Cobb]

It's one thing to get caught in a situation, but to go looking for one, is another matter entirely. Paul Vunak is good, there is no denying that but what gives him the right to go looking for trouble? That is just showing off, he should be above that! As martial artists we know that the best defense is don't be there, so why would someone as well trained as PV put himself into this kind of situation?
Does he have a complex of some kind?
This is the sort of macho bravado tough guy crap that gets people killed.

--Dave:soapbox:

[Angus]

Originally posted by sweeper


as to the arguement that you should seek anything in a fight, I disagree, I think people should know their strengths, I'm not saying you should go blindly for a single tech no matter what and to the exclusion of everything else, I haven't seen anyone here say that you should chose an attack in exclusion of another, but if you have a prefered way of doing things you can set them up, it's probably instinctive, but there are junktions in fights whee you have a choice what way to go, if you move tards your strengths you should have an advantage (of course all things must be taken into consideration and grappling might not be great if you are getting flanked)


My point about not seeking something is that you shouldn't sit there and try to force your way into one move because it's very contrary to the idea of "flow", which I really feel is important to fighting effectively. Besides, if you're seeking one single move, your focus has gone from "survive" to "armbar", and I think that can be dangerous. It has NOTHING to do with going with one's general strengths; for example, I prefer to kick because my legs are stronger than anything else I have and most highly trained, but if I'm too close to kick I'm not going to push away until I'm far enough to get them in with strength. I'm going to knee, elbow, punch, grab, throw, or whatever I have to do to keep myself safe. If your specialty happens to be grappling, then break some fingers, arms, legs, whatever, but use what they give you, don't force them into getting one lock or break because it could be very dangerous. Do what you can with what you have; it's why we train to be well-rounded. I'd prefer to kick, but if I can't I'm not going to try to forcefully position him or myself to do it, I'm just going to use any technique I know based on what he and I are doing, how we're standing, and where the energy is going. Has nothing do to with strengths/weaknesses.

The only reason I'd be against the going for strength/weakness thing is if you're talking in specific techniques. Sure, my roundhouse is strong because of Muay Thai, but I'm not always in position to use it, so I'd use another kick instead. It's why we train multiple techniques, rather than 1 kick, 1 punch, etc. Having general strengths is ok, but focusing on trying to get one single technique is dangerous. Just IMO, though. :)

[knifeman.dk]

The short story i mentioned from The Probe was not a matter of hanging a person or system out or even discussing systems- it was more a matter of descriping how one on one is not the best for multiple attackers and how getting "all mad" can get your but saved.
Not to be in a certain situation etc. is a moral discussion - and a quite hard one too. I tell my students to lock themselves in their rooms and not to make any contacts at all- in this environment they should be safe!!!:D
sincerely knifeman.dk:asian:

[J-kid]

People will think twice group or no group about messing with someone with a gun, MA is great for fighting one on one 2 on one 3 on one or maybe 4, But past that your dead inless they are all little halflings or somthing close to there size even then they might be able to over power you with numbers. All i know is i will take gun safty lessions at my JUDO and if someone is going after my girlfriend with a knife i will cap him. In self defense only, But i would warn him first and make him dance around like a monkey befor pistly whipping him then going . Now that i think about it i will proble not get a gun because its risky , Not to sure all depends i proble wouldnt wanna take a gun out in public anyhow. Your friend Judo-kid

[Angus]

Sounds like a terrible idea. He wants my money, so I'll shoot his ass. :rolleyes: Come on, you know that probably isn't the smartest idea. Gun training is one thing, but carrying a gun around so you can shoot the first would-be attacker is, well, scary.

Besides, what happens if he takes your gun somehow?

[7starmantis]

I have taken the Texas Gun Safty course and am certified to carry a concealed handgun. I have bee ncertified for about 3 years, and I have never once carried it. I guess I waisted my money on it! I just don't feel that there are many situations where I would want to shoot and kill someone. See you have to understand that if you shoot someone and do not kill them, your going to jail. The use of deadly force is only for life saving situations, if you didn't have to kill the other person there was no need for you to shoot them. Then you have put peoples lifes at stake(people around the area, if a bullet was to hit on of them), and all that. Plus, even if you shoot someone in the right context, your still going to jail until they get it all sorted out and go to court most likely, so its pretty muhc a loose loose situation, and someone is going to loose their life. I'm just not ready to take on that responsibility.


7sm

[H@pkid0ist]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

People will think twice group or no group about messing with someone with a gun, MA is great for fighting one on one 2 on one 3 on one or maybe 4, But past that your dead inless they are all little halflings or somthing close to there size even then they might be able to over power you with numbers.

Dissagree, I know some people that are one of a few things. Either completly crazy, have the biggest marbles in the world, or are just plain stupid. Even with a gun you can count on getting approached. Also, if you carry a weapon and people know about it and they want to confront you then they may do it with a weapon as well. As far as numbers, if you train in multiple fighters, using the right style and techniques, you have a good chance. In my Hap ki Do dojang we train in up to 10 people defense. We learn what techniques are good in those situations, what are not, and how to move. Any more than say 8-10 people then techniques are prtty much the same. The biggest issue with multiple attackers is if they get smart and bum rush you all at once. As far as weapons, we have great weapon defense techniques.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

I have taken the Texas Gun Safty course and am certified to carry a concealed handgun. I have bee ncertified for about 3 years, and I have never once carried it. I guess I waisted my money on it! I just don't feel that there are many situations where I would want to shoot and kill someone. See you have to understand that if you shoot someone and do not kill them, your going to jail. The use of deadly force is only for life saving situations, if you didn't have to kill the other person there was no need for you to shoot them. Then you have put peoples lifes at stake(people around the area, if a bullet was to hit on of them), and all that. Plus, even if you shoot someone in the right context, your still going to jail until they get it all sorted out and go to court most likely, so its pretty muhc a loose loose situation, and someone is going to loose their life. I'm just not ready to take on that responsibility.


7sm

Does the word "Luby's" give you a possible situation where you'd
need to shoot and kill someone? Would you be ready to take on
THAT responsibility? That's the whole reason the concealed
weapon law got passed in this state in the first place. Sorry to
sound like I'm dumping on you, I'm sincerely not bro. Just trying
to make the point that there's more than just mugger vs. you
scenarios.
:soapbox:

[7starmantis]

Well, in the great state of Texas, you can't shoot at someone like that. Just because you have a gun and can carry it doesn't make you a law enforcement officer. Shooting in a crowded place can land you in prison for manslaughter. This isn't the post to get into it, but that is the law, take the course, it really opens your eyes.

Would I have shot them if I had been in luby's at that time, probably, but then again, I hope I'm never faced with that situation. And the reason the gunlaw was created was to licsence guns that are being carried, not to allow you to protect everyone around you, that is the job of the police. Too many people walk around willing to draw their gun and shoot, that can create more problems as well.

Not to mention that you can't carry your gun in Luby's anyway. Any place that posts a sticker saying no guns, you can't carry in, any place that derives more thatn 50% of its money from the sale of alchohol, you can't carry in, (yes this includes Chilies, and TGI Fridays), and educational building, you can't carry in. Its really limited. It is setup to educate people carrying guns, not to allow people to carry guns.


7sm

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by knifeman.dk Not to be in a certain situation etc. is a moral discussion - and a quite hard one too. I tell my students to lock themselves in their rooms and not to make any contacts at all- in this environment they should be safe!!!:D
sincerely knifeman.dk:asian:

It's got nothing to do with morals....
It is just straight out self defense logic, if you aint where the whoopass is you aint gonna get whooped! I was trying to point out the difference between looking for trouble, and just plain getting caught up in trouble.
You could lock yourself in a room and never go outside, but you would miss out on all the good stuff, that's going on.
--Dave

:asian:

[Kirk]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

Well, in the great state of Texas, you can't shoot at someone like that. Just because you have a gun and can carry it doesn't make you a law enforcement officer. Shooting in a crowded place can land you in prison for manslaughter. This isn't the post to get into it, but that is the law, take the course, it really opens your eyes.

Would I have shot them if I had been in luby's at that time, probably, but then again, I hope I'm never faced with that situation. And the reason the gunlaw was created was to licsence guns that are being carried, not to allow you to protect everyone around you, that is the job of the police. Too many people walk around willing to draw their gun and shoot, that can create more problems as well.

Not to mention that you can't carry your gun in Luby's anyway. Any place that posts a sticker saying no guns, you can't carry in, any place that derives more thatn 50% of its money from the sale of alchohol, you can't carry in, (yes this includes Chilies, and TGI Fridays), and educational building, you can't carry in. Its really limited. It is setup to educate people carrying guns, not to allow people to carry guns.


7sm

I disagree. And to let you know, first off, Luby's doesn't sell
alcohol. Secondly, when this law was passed, Luby's posted a
sign on their doors saying that they welcome those legally
carrying a concealed weapon. I have yet to see a single Luby's
with said sticker on their doors. The guy killed over 20 people.
Had ONE person been there with a gun a lot of lives could have
been saved.

There's 2 stories that I'm aware of in this regard.
One lady was normally packing for her own personal protection,
didn't that day. She carried it so often that when the first shot
rang out, she she reached for her pistol in her purse, and THEN
remembered she didn't bring it with her that day. The other was
a peace officer, who wasn't allowed by his dept. to carry off duty
guns.

Funny, every news story that was going on at the time this came
up for a vote said "to allow people to carry concealed weapons".

Lastly, I work for Bexar County. There's peace officers in the floor
directly above me. I just called 3 of them. They're of the opinion
that if someone opens fire on a crowd of people, and you take
them out with a rifle/pistol/whatever, that you wouldn't even get
a ride in the backseat of a squad car, let alone end up in a trial.
But they did say .. dead men don't testify, so it's better in a
defense situation to kill, rather than injure, when firearms are
involved.

Peace

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

People will think twice group or no group about messing with someone with a gun, MA is great for fighting one on one 2 on one 3 on one or maybe 4, But past that your dead inless they are all little halflings or somthing close to there size even then they might be able to over power you with numbers. All i know is i will take gun safty lessions at my JUDO and if someone is going after my girlfriend with a knife i will cap him. In self defense only, But i would warn him first and make him dance around like a monkey befor pistly whipping him then going . Now that i think about it i will proble not get a gun because its risky , Not to sure all depends i proble wouldnt wanna take a gun out in public anyhow. Your friend Judo-kid

That's ok for you guys in the US. Here in Australia we have some of the toughest gun ownership laws in the world. In some states of Australia you are not even allowed to own a handgun. We aren't allowed to carry knives in public. In fact all our weapons laws are tough.
I have a set of display katana, that are blunt, they are purely for display. I need a license to own them because they are a "class 2" weapon. In my garage I have a machete that I keep razor sharp, I don't need a license for it because it is not a weapon, it is a "tool".
The stupid part is that these laws only stop law abiding people from owning these weapons....
The bad guys still got guns!
--Dave

:asian:

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Kirk



I disagree. And to let you know, first off, Luby's doesn't sell
alcohol. Secondly, when this law was passed, Luby's posted a
sign on their doors saying that they welcome those legally
carrying a concealed weapon. I have yet to see a single Luby's
with said sticker on their doors. The guy killed over 20 people.
Had ONE person been there with a gun a lot of lives could have
been saved.

Lastly, I work for Bexar County. There's peace officers in the floor
directly above me. I just called 3 of them. They're of the opinion
that if someone opens fire on a crowd of people, and you take
them out with a rifle/pistol/whatever, that you wouldn't even get
a ride in the backseat of a squad car, let alone end up in a trial.
But they did say .. dead men don't testify, so it's better in a
defense situation to kill, rather than injure, when firearms are
involved.

Peace

Where I live, there are stickers on the luby's here that say no handguns. Maybe its s local thing, thats why I said that, I know luby's doesn't serve alchohol. We had a discussion about this in our gun class. I'm not saying in anyway that the guy shouldn't have been shot, I'm just saying we can't turn people into peace officers. Woudl I have used deadly force? Of course, would I have been happy about it? Of course NOT. Would I have had a hard time dealing with the fact that I took someone life? YES. As an ex-paramedic, I have seen death alot, adn it is never pretty, no matter what the individual has done. I think lives could have been saved, but the guy who killed them is the responsible one, not the people without handguns, we need to remember that.

Second, The Chief of Police in Chandler Texas, who happens to be by best frineds father in law, and J.B. Smith, the sheriff of Smith County, who happens to be my mother in laws boyfriend, both say, your going to jail when you shoot ANYONE, regardless. You wont stay there, but you may even spend the night there. Thats the things you have to think of when shooting someone. ITs pretty unnerving to hear you say its better to kill than injure. True, if you injur them then you probably didn't need to shoot them at all. I'm only trying to say that we should be a little more thoughtful about shooting people. Thats my only point, we should think about the afterthought.

JMHO

back to the topis here, it is a danger for someone to take the gun away, cause then your probably dead.


7sm

[Damian Mavis]

Sweeper, I think you misread my post on page 1... I wasn't against JKD methodology I was FOR it.

Bod...... where the frik you live man? BEIRUT!? You must live in a rough city or just plain unlucky.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[sweeper]

ok NM Mavis, but Bod lives in london UK.

judo kid, I know what you are talking about (with the standing arm bars), I used to take classes at your school about two years ago, I still think that's a strategicly bad idea. a wall behind you means you can't go back or to the sides and back, your mobility is cut in half. This means when you are flanked you are screwed, the only time I can see this being a good thing is if you get caught in the middle of a rioting mob.

Angus I agree with you for the most part, I thought you were interpreting other posts as saying that they would seek a given technique, I didn't tihnk that was the intent of the post. But as to the strengths thing, I think some times some techniques are so strong vs others being so week that you may chose one over the other, for example my 1,2 just sucks, I have never landed it period. so I use a 1,3,2 it works much much better, you might argue that this limits my veriety, well yeah it does but that's because in my case I'm 99% sure that firing a 1,3,2 will be more effective in 100% of situations than a 1,2,3 because my 1,2 is so freakin week. I train my 1,2 to get it better but I still have timming issues or something. in a situation like this where one technique vastly outshines another I can understand someone going for the one over and over (but of course that's not the only combination I use and if the other person is on the deffencive I could land a 1,2).

D.Cobb, I think you have to read some about that period of Vunak's life, I read an interview with him where he refered to that period as the "dark ages" because he got into bar fights alot, it sounded like he didn't get into it because he was trying to prove something or test something, he did it just because he hated the whole navy training thing so much he just didn't care but I realy can't speak on that with any authority, I have never met the man and maybe someone on this board who knows him could speak on it with a little more knowledge. But from my understanding it seemed less like a lack of responcibility than depresion.

[Bod]

Yep, I live in London. I know a chap from Beirut and you don't get mugged over there. Shot maybe, but not mugged. He tells of a time when he started letting off fireworks with his mate and the Israeli army responded with mortars. Oops!

You will notice the incidence of run ins with BGs decreasing with time. This is because I had a *very* sheltered upbringing, and when I finally left the home I was so naive as to be a danger to myself. It took a while to get streetwise.

Also I think that freedom to go wherever I want is more important than my safety. I avoid trouble spots, which is why I have never been involved in barroom violence, but I'll walk home at 2 in the morning if I so choose. My choice, so I am not complaining.

As a side note it became clear that some of the criminals in a group had more experience than others. I think that the vast majority of criminals learn their trade from others. If you do something unscripted it bothers them. Most times they bail out. Sometimes they panic and get nasty.

I think most of us do the same, the edge we have is we can consider and prepare for more eventualities, and we are doing it for survival and not to further our own scrounging existence.

Also I have realised from reading posts from various places around the world that the most common types of violence differ from locality to locality. I'd always suspected this, maybe we could go into more detail.

Does anyone wish to discuss/categorise the typical situations in their locality?

[J-kid]

You should stop by the gym some time.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Bod
Also I have realised from reading posts from various places around the world that the most common types of violence differ from locality to locality. I'd always suspected this, maybe we could go into more detail.

Does anyone wish to discuss/categorise the typical situations in their locality?

Wouldn't we need to start a new thread for this?
--Dave

[Jay Bell]

Originally posted by vincefuess

Take out the easiest guy first. Break a knee, crush a larynx, gouge an eye, or break any bone that is available. That is one less guy to kick you when you are down (which is generally when the wusses come into play).

Excellent thoughts, Vince. People forget about the psychology of what is happening with multiple opponents. Hurting someone hard and fast (the weakest of the bunch) may change the tone of the rest involved..it is enough to end the confrontation there.

[sweeper]

judo kid, don't have time right now but I would get thrown around so easily, I quit for two reasons, one was my knees were killing me and the other was I seem to have no potential for judo ;-p

Bod, yeah in countries where guns are illegal or highly regulated there aren'tas many shootings because it's easyer to screen them out of the country entirly. In a country like the US where there are alot of places where guns have next to no limitations and no one searches you anywhere, it's easy to bring them into a city where theymay be illegal, that's the largest argument against making guns illegal on a local level over here.

I'm not sure of statistics but I think in washington state the majority of random attacks involve multiple attackers without guns, for a wial we had a problem with some gang initiations where people would be bludgeoned to death but that hasn't happened for a wial, and in seattle minor riots seem to be getting popular.. Personaly I blame the californians, but that's just me :-p

And one question to close out the post.. Why does the systema logo thingy look like the bat signal?

[Hollywood1340]

Kiddie(s)
Neither Judo nor JJ are mutiple opponent arts. Granted Judo and some forns of JJ can be used as such, relying on them soely in a situation with more then one attacker is ill advised. However judo in combination with a strking art such as AKK can prove..how do you say, very unhealthy to your attackers.

[Angus]

Originally posted by sweeper


Angus I agree with you for the most part, I thought you were interpreting other posts as saying that they would seek a given technique, I didn't tihnk that was the intent of the post. But as to the strengths thing, I think some times some techniques are so strong vs others being so week that you may chose one over the other, for example my 1,2 just sucks, I have never landed it period. so I use a 1,3,2 it works much much better, you might argue that this limits my veriety, well yeah it does but that's because in my case I'm 99% sure that firing a 1,3,2 will be more effective in 100% of situations than a 1,2,3 because my 1,2 is so freakin week. I train my 1,2 to get it better but I still have timming issues or something. in a situation like this where one technique vastly outshines another I can understand someone going for the one over and over (but of course that's not the only combination I use and if the other person is on the deffencive I could land a 1,2).



I understand you, and I agree completely. I think my punches as a whole aren't that great, but I train them so I can use them. However, I still prefer not to have to use them over something like a kick or an elbow. I completely agree with what you said. The only way I'd disagree is if you had said "I think my 1-2 sucks, so when I fight I'm going to go 1-3-2 to every single guy. It's the most effective, so I'll only do that." A bit exaggerated I know, but that's the sort of idea I'm against.

Obviously everyone has strengths and weaknesses in areas of technique and different techniques have different levels of powers. Both are why usually I'll throw a thai roundhouse rather than an inside crescent if I want to take someone out. Usually, though, we understand what our S's and W's are, and you compensate for them subconsciously. Luckily we train such that we can do multiple techniques from most positions on most targets, so we can use whichever suits us the best. That's a good thing, it's different than seeking a certain move (locks/submissions especially because they are even more dependent on position, which is an uncertainty/large variable).

I think we're more on the same side than it sounds, I'm just a wee bit verbose. :D

Hollywood, why do you address everyone as "kiddies"? You're probably younger than most of them!

[Hollywood1340]

Kiddies,
I enjoy it, and have done it for quite sometime. It's noticed, isn't it :)

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Hollywood1340

Kiddies,
I enjoy it, and have done it for quite sometime. It's noticed, isn't it :)

I would suggest that our young friend subscribes to the theory,"It doesn't matter what they say about you, as long as they're talking about you."

--Dave:rofl:

[sweeper]

yeah I would agree that we both agree in genneral, my point was there are ways to draw attacks that can be grappled, anytime you draw an attack you can intercept it with a grab, if you are fast enough you can intercept and apply an arm bar before they can realy resist, they would have to give a long extention for that to work and you would have to realy know what you are doing but you could do it, also you can just fake a jab and grab your oppoanant's hand if you want to grapple, it isn't hard to get there unless your opponant is activly resisting moving into that situation.

[KennethKu]

Why grap it when you can smash it? If it is within reach of your grasp , it can be smashed. Of course, the assumption is one must have the breaking power to smash an attacking limb.

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by KennethKu

Why grap it when you can smash it? If it is within reach of your grasp , it can be smashed. Of course, the assumption is one must have the breaking power to smash an attacking limb.

Power? We don't need no stinking power! :D

Its just technique and the appropriate pressure!


7sm

[sweeper]

it's much easyer to grab an arm than strike it because you don't have to have power in the grabbing hand so you have alot more control, my personal choise would be to grab it than smash it, like catch the hand and smash it with my other elbow. but doing a strike on a loose arm to dammage it? that's virtualy imposable unless you are ding a direct interception (like throwing an elbow at an incomming punch) and that takes alot of acuracy and timming. pluss hyper extending the arm would be more dammaging in the short term.

(edit) almost forgot, if you can hyper extend the arm you have a very powerfull submision hold, it realy furts to have your arm hyper extended, and it's REALY painfull to have someone jerking it around and twisting it in that hyper extended position.

[KennethKu]

Obviously you need to condition your hands to deliver the striking power. (Especially Back fist strike in limb destruction). And to practice targeting. LOl now I understand why you think MArtists suck. The key is conditioning (or the lack of). Striking is more efficient. But if grapping works for you, more power to you.

Grapping and holding and especially pulling your opponent forward, NEED power. (Since you are in JKD, you ought to know that Bruce Lee trained his pulling grips religiously.)

From your posts, your view is that attacking the limbs is futile. You tend to discount the striking power you could train to achieve. We have different views.

In case you are not aware of this, there are plenty of cases where people have their arms broken from kicks, in sparring and competition, and even in practice. I have seen competition won with one kick to the knee. I have seen KI comp where 3 kicks to the thigh and the fight was over.

[KennethKu]

Sweeper, Check this out. It is American Kempo, good illustration of striking nonetheless. Besides, in JKD, there is no such thing as Non-JKD :D.( Anything that works can and will be stolen and claimed as JKD's very own :) ) Note: you don't need to break anything to strike for effect. But you do need to condition for striking power.


http://www.akki.com/_videos/index.htm

[Jay Bell]

Originally posted by Hollywood1340

Kiddie(s)
Neither Judo nor JJ are mutiple opponent arts. Granted Judo and some forns of JJ can be used as such, relying on them soely in a situation with more then one attacker is ill advised. However judo in combination with a strking art such as AKK can prove..how do you say, very unhealthy to your attackers.

Incorrect. Many Jujutsu ryuha were originally created to be specifically multiple attacker arts. Shinden Fudo ryu being one of them. Keep in mind...this was battlefield fighting. You ever seen a battlefield that was one on one? Jujutsu is NOT BJJ...BJJ is one-on-one...Japan's reasons for Jujutsu did not include an octagon ring.

[theneuhauser]

what sort of moves did these ryuha use to the multiple opponent effect?

[Jay Bell]

Historically, methods were practiced against a group of people, not one-on-one.

[theneuhauser]

yes, i understood that part of your previous post. do you know any examples of the methodology behind the battlefield jujutsu, what the heck was it?

[sweeper]

KennethKu I didn't say striking was useless, I was simply pointing out the strength of grappling. my experience is that when you are under stress you don't think as clearly and your technique realy suffers, so I go with what I can do best. (for me that's kicking kneeing and elbows) I'm not sure what you mean by condition my hands, do you mean work on acuracy?

hitting an arm out of the air off a strike is VERY hard, it takes alot of skill to do. What's the advantage? why not go the simply road? I know striking the arm can be effective, we practice it in jkd, all I'm saying is it isn't easy by any means (unless someone's feeding you) and after you do it the first time, unless it leads to a fight ending combo, they are gona know you go for it and will try to draw you with feints.

[KennethKu]

Ok, in JKD, how do you deflect attack? Rear hand parrying, right? When you parry, you hand makes contact. So, instead of just pushing the attack away, just smash it with your fist, hammer fist (side fist), or back fist or if you are up to it, knife hand. Now of course, you need to punch on heavy bag to condition your hands. Better yet, train on a gravel bag.

Now if you resort to grapping and pulling your opponent toward you and smashing his face with your lead hand, that is one effective method too. But that would need pulling power.

[sweeper]

ok, that AKKI page doesn't realy facilitate your point, they are striking an un-resisting opponant.. I men unless you show me a real fight with two skilled fighters it isn't gona show that someone can execute a destructive interception, and even if they had shown that, those are very skilled people there, you don't get that way over night and that isn't gona be usefull for a long time. I have never seen a live interception like what you are talking about, I realy don't think it's something to be relied apon.

As to blocking in JKD but most of them include simultanious attack, so you block and jab. however, blocking isn't realy a big deal in my JKD class. In my class there is a diffrence between blocking and parrying.. a parry is an interception where you move your arm on the same course that your opponant's arm is comming at you, usualy this takes the form of a hand bat like in boxing. Blocking is when you let a blow hit you but you try to minimise dammage by bringing up a tight guard.. parrying with full power is next to imposable.. and unless there is something preventing the limb from moving you have the problem if the arm just swinging out of the way on contact (sapping the power out).

[KennethKu]

JKD uses parrying to the total exclusion of blocking. (I think b/c Bruce Lee weighted only 130 lb lol. He couldn't block effectively). I didn't even talk about blocking at all.

In Karate/TKD, you block with your forearm. KT guys condition their forearms with a wooden stick. (Ok, I doubt they do that in McDojo. But that is standard in Asia) Most TKD would pass on blocking as blocking a kick with an arm is pretty much suicide.

When you parry an attack, I doubt you still gonna return with a jab. There should be an openning there for a direct lead hand attack. How do you want to implement the Jeet (intercept) in Jeet Kune Do, is up to you. If you don't think striking the attacking limbs is feasible for you, there is no point in arguing about it. If you can grap and destruct or pull and smash, that works fine. As in JKD, "my way is not your way, your truth is not my truth" --- Bruce Lee. :)

BTW, what you saw in the AKKI vid, you don't need years to reach such skill level. If you train at it, 3-6 months of heavy duty heavy bag work out, you will have the striking power. There is nothing magical about it.

[Bod]

theneuhauser:


what sort of moves did these ryuha use to the multiple opponent effect?

It's more based around their long, low, hip swinging footwork than specific moves. It's combined with punches that swing up from behind the leg, usually punching with the same arm as the leg that is moving.

Its hard to describe, and looks pretty daft one on one, but it worked for me in a multiple attacker situation. If you can see any pictures on Bujinkan sites it'll give you an idea. If you imagine the sort of footwork you see in swordfights in the old Samurai movies and add to that punches moving with the same leg that is stepping you'll get the idea.

[Hollywood1340]

Mr. Bell,
Thanks for the info. Ya learn something new everyday. I guess I was speaking moreso along the lines of the JJ, which is primalry Brazilian in orgin, being taught today. (Again I could be wrong).

[Damian Mavis]

From what I have seen BJJ and Japanese JJ are very different with Japanese incorporating many strikes. More strikes would be better for multiple opponents I would think.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Bod]

Yep you're wrong :D . The Brazilian Ju-Jitsu is actually of Japanese origin and is the same as Judo. The way they teach it and their emphasis does make it a different product though.

Japanese jujutsu (or just plain jujutsu) could be any one of many old schools who teach the old samurai fighting arts.

But I learn something new about the martial arts everyday too, and that is what all the fun is about.

One day I'll find out about Wally Jay's small circle ju jitsu which I've heard about but know very little of.

So much to learn, so little time ...

[sammy3170]

[B]The only art I have used against multuiple attackers is bujinkan Ninpo and that worked very nicely. (Against 9 - 11 attackers!)


I don't care what style you do and what rank you are if there are 9-11 attackers you're in some serious trouble. If you messed up a couple and the others backed off, fine but otherwise they would have to be a bunch of absolute spuds.

Just some thoughts.
Cheers
Sammy

[Bod]

Luckily for me they were.

One big, nasty looking chap would have me scared and two would have me **** scared.

But spuds can be dangerous. It only takes one of them to pull out a knife and stab you in the back once you are surrounded and you've had it. Some of the advice I've seen around - strong stance - take them in the order they come - get your back against a wall - is deadly, even if you are faced by a large bunch of otherwise no-hopers.

In most cases I've seen, or heard of, where there are a lot of people fighting, most of them don't want to risk being hurt. They can give it but they can't take it. This is very different from one on one fighting. If someone is willing to take you on, one on one, he is desperate or deranged.

[MartialArtist]

Well, I wouldn't say an art is superior...

But one thing about multiple opponents is you have to be able to move quickly, move gracefully, use LOTS OF FOOTWORK, and be able to defend yourself from long-range, medium-range, and short-range as in headlocks, nelsons, etc.

The only thing you have for your advantage is that multiple opponents do get in each other's way most of the time and they leave openings that they normally wouldn't leave on one-on-one situations. For instance, even a simple roundhouse or a side kick might catch them off guard without any feinting or special timing.

It would be your best bet to also learn how to eliminate threats as in disabling them. For instance, if you poke on in the eye or kick them in the groin, they will be out. And don't give me that, "it's not honorable" stuff because it's pretty obvious why... It isn't a sparring match or a "test of skill" but self-defense.

[Damian Mavis]

"And don't give me that, "it's not honorable" stuff because it's pretty obvious why"

Who on earth would say that?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by sammy3170

[B]The only art I have used against multuiple attackers is bujinkan Ninpo and that worked very nicely. (Against 9 - 11 attackers!)


I don't care what style you do and what rank you are if there are 9-11 attackers you're in some serious trouble. If you messed up a couple and the others backed off, fine but otherwise they would have to be a bunch of absolute spuds.

Just some thoughts.
Cheers
Sammy


Welcome to Martial Talk Sammy.
You will find this to be probably the best place for martial ideas, people and arguements, on the web. Enjoy buddy.
--Dave
:asian:

[sammy3170]

My point was that 9-11 attackers is a virtual impossibility not that spuds aren't dangerous. Good point regarding the mindset of multiples against singular attacks though.

Cheers
Sammy

[bob919]

i'm sure its been said
but i just move so only one can strike at me, put the hurt on him (hopefully he is on the ground beofre the rest get too close ) then you can just repeat this untill you run out of breath

if there is like 2-3 you could push one into the others and while they are distracted get out of there or kick them while they are down either should work

[SMAC]

10+ attackers. Sounds like its time to resort to the mighty wooden spoon

[Mon Mon]

I wish to point out this idea not all of your multiple attackers might be smart and attack you one at a time.