Distance Training Doesn't Work

[Danjo]

Distance learning doesn't work unless you've already trained in the material live. At least this is true of the techniques. Kata, you can probably learn via video. Let me tell you about my experience with this:

Last night I started training at Prof. John Bishop's Kajukenbo Academy. It was GREAT to be back to live training and it was a wonderful class. The students are well trained and friendly and Prof. Bishop is a lot of fun to train with as your instructor. I'm pretty sore today, but in a good way!

Now, I have had the Kajukenbo tapes for some time and had memorized many of the techniques in anticipation of training in Kajukenbo. I practiced them in the air over and over again until they were fairly well polished. Well, once I got to start trying them with the students, I found out that my sense of timing and distance was all off. Plus, there were several subtleties in the techniques that I had missed when watching the tapes. Not being a novice in the martial arts, I was fair at some of them, but I looked like a white belt at many of them. I am therefore absolutely convinced that there is no way anyone can get to black belt legitimately through a video course. There's just too much that you can't learn without live training and an instructor that can tell you what you're doing wrong. The tapes are a great supplement, but they in no way are a substitute for actual instruction. People are just fooling themselves if they think otherwise.

[Kenpodoc]

I used to use Video tapes to review the gross motor movements of a technique prior to comeing to class. That allowed me to concentrate on the more subtle intracacies during class and I spent less of my face time with the teach onthe gross movement.

Jeff

[Flying Crane]

I agree that video can be useful if you are already familiar with the material, or at the very least if you have a solid background already. Trying to learn it from ground zero, however, I think is bound for failure but you may not realize it until you get a chance to train with some people.

[bujuts]

I suppose it depends on what you're learning. First off, I don't really learn anything from anything other than people, however I can't entirely disregard the use of media. In the past, I have gained much in terms of practice methods, conditioning, and drills

In the same fashion, I have gained much by watching other systems in which have I have 0.00% interest in learning. But training methods, teaching methods, some concepts, drills, and conditioning may be applied across the diversity of systems.

But details on techniques? Stuff I need to feel to believe? No thanks. Iron forges iron, man forges man.

Godo topic, Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF

[James Kovacich]

1) Distance learning doesn't work unless you've already trained in the material live.

2) Not being a novice in the martial arts, I was fair at some of them, but I looked like a white belt at many of them.

3) I am therefore absolutely convinced that there is no way anyone can get to black belt legitimately through a video course.

4) There's just too much that you can't learn without live training and an instructor that can tell you what you're doing wrong.

5) The tapes are a great supplement, but they in no way are a substitute for actual instruction.

6) People are just fooling themselves if they think otherwise.

1) Possibly correct. That would depend on the individual.

2) Apparrently you are novice enough that you couldn't make it work while others do.

3) Refer to answer #2. But I think you may have a true motive that is headed in another direction about certain people.

4) Theres to much that YOU can't learn. Again refer to answer #2. Live training is a necesity for a lot of systems but some senior instructors don't see it that way and some even base their judgnment solely on forms.
http://www.thebelt.com/
Not saying it's a good program. Just saying that some who are greater than us see it differantly than you.

5) True.

6) Or maybe you were just fooling yourself. You're abilities in no way affect everyone elses.

[stickarts]

I see tapes and seminars as great supplements to your training, however, it can't replace a live instructor just like taking strictly vitamin supplements can't replace good healthy home cooked meals! :)

[Henderson]

I'll just say that it wouldn't be my preferred training method, and leave it at that.

[Danjo]

1) Possibly correct. That would depend on the individual.

2) Apparrently you are novice enough that you couldn't make it work while others do.

3) Refer to answer #2. But I think you may have a true motive that is headed in another direction about certain people.

4) Theres to much that YOU can't learn. Again refer to answer #2. Live training is a necesity for a lot of systems but some senior instructors don't see it that way and some even base their judgnment solely on forms.
http://www.thebelt.com/
Not saying it's a good program. Just saying that some who are greater than us see it differantly than you.

5) True.

6) Or maybe you were just fooling yourself. You're abilities in no way affect everyone elses.

First off, I did say that one can learn kata via video. Especially if one tapes oneself and watches it until it looks like what you see on the original tape.

As to the rest of it Jim, I wasn't bringing a volitile topic from another forum over here where they prefer to keep things more cordial. There's no hidden motives behind what I'm saying. I was actually surprised at the results. I'm a pretty quick study and this was the first time I had actually done it this way. My previous training had all been live with supplemental and review material on video. In live training, I pick it up quickly, so this is a first where I tried to learn it directly off of a video before trying to apply it. It helped to a certain extent to know the material in my head, but it simply didn't transfer straight across like I would have thought.

I'm not going to get into a flame war with you over here despite your intended insults. Every forum has their own tolerances for that sort of thing and Martial Talk likes to keep things pretty civil.

[Mcura]

This question isn't directed to a specific person. I'd just like to know if anyone here has taken a drill from a video and tried it out with a training partner? I haven't got a really big library of tapes, but the material I have seen pretty much requires that you have at least one good friend to practice with. Failing that, perhaps a heavy bag, a BOB, a pell, or even a Mook Jong to strike and give you feedback.

[Hand Sword]

I agree with that. All of the video training that I've researched had to have you get someone to "dummy up" for you.

[Carol]

Danjo,

The one thing that you do not mention about your distance training: the amount of time that you studied sir.

How many hours of video did you watch over what period of time?

How many hours of practice did you put in over what period of time?

How regular was your practice schedule?

What was the scope of the material that you studied? Was it supposed to take you from white to black?

I don't mean any disrespect, just trying to understand the circumstances under which you did your training.

Respectfully,
Carol

[Hand Sword]

Maybe I see things differently, but, the fact that people are at least familiar with the movements, terminology, etc.. shows that distance learning can work to some degree. Epecially, if the tests are reviewed properly. These people doing them seem to be doing well. However, I agree, that having past experience will definiely help in video studying.

I just beleive that doing anything is helpful, and anything is better than nothing. If you have the will to learn you will do so, no matter the "dojo" location. (your living room included)

[Henderson]

I just beleive that doing anything is helpful, and anything is better than nothing.(your living room included)

You make a valid point here.

[James Kovacich]

First off, I did say that one can learn kata via video. Especially if one tapes oneself and watches it until it looks like what you see on the original tape.

As to the rest of it Jim, I wasn't bringing a volitile topic from another forum over here where they prefer to keep things more cordial. There's no hidden motives behind what I'm saying. I was actually surprised at the results. I'm a pretty quick study and this was the first time I had actually done it this way. My previous training had all been live with supplemental and review material on video. In live training, I pick it up quickly, so this is a first where I tried to learn it directly off of a video before trying to apply it. It helped to a certain extent to know the material in my head, but it simply didn't transfer straight across like I would have thought.

I'm not going to get into a flame war with you over here despite your intended insults. Every forum has their own tolerances for that sort of thing and Martial Talk likes to keep things pretty civil.

Sorry. It seemed that there were "key" words #'s 3 amd 6 seemed baiting. If I'm wrong, my bad. I figured that by now you new that I use electronic technology for my training association.

My original intention was to use generic videos but I've found that since students don't sign up in large numbers and their skill level varies. My videos are tailored to the student. I've also played with skype and a few others but it is fairly easy to make a DVD and just put it in the mail.

My students are spread out and I travel to them. I have a group here with me that pay regular rates and my distant students pay far less and we make arrangements for 1 on 1. So it really is a blend of hands on and modern technology.

I sensed you had a "double wammy" with my association and the other.
I surely could of easily been wrong and the more time you spend with John and his school no doubt you will make major changes all for the better.

One thing. I'm guessing Johns students are very good and the fact you had no training partner. You probably were just off, like we all are when we take time off. The medium has "merit" with proper usage.

The hardest thing about it is actually training by ones self. You train that which you can do by yourself. Once you have a training partner. Repetition along with the "mechanics of the technique" is key for muscle memory. Your skill will allow you to fine tune much technique when you are alone. That combined with some form of guidance from an instructor it works. Differant instructors will offer differant levels of guidance and some will offer none.


I WAS RIGHT! YOU POST ONE THING HERE AND OVER THERE YOU POST "THE CRAP." I'M LEAVING WHAT I ORIGINALLY WROTE BECAUSE I WAS SINCERE.

[Danjo]

Danjo,

The one thing that you do not mention about your distance training: the amount of time that you studied sir.

How many hours of video did you watch over what period of time?

How many hours of practice did you put in over what period of time?

How regular was your practice schedule?

What was the scope of the material that you studied? Was it supposed to take you from white to black?

I don't mean any disrespect, just trying to understand the circumstances under which you did your training.

Respectfully,
Carol

Carol,

I spent about 30 minutes a day for about four months in learning the techniques (punch counters, grab arts, club and knife counters). I limited it to how many I could reasonably learn and practice in that time. Mostly, I was after familiarity with the techniques so that I wouldn't be starting from ground zero. The videos helped quite a lot, but, there were still the issues with timing and distance that no amount of solo practice could overcome.

Previous to that, however, I have worked out with the Villari's White to Blackbelt series. Now, I already had a good amount of time and experience in Shaolin Kempo, so much of it was largely review, but I'm sure that the results would be the same as far as the learning of new techniques (by which I mean two-man combinations).

People can learn a great deal from videos, but black belt level skills are not among them in my opinion.

[Jonathan Randall]

While I understand the points made in this thread, IMO, a better title would be "Distance Training has Some Serious Disadvantages".

[Hand Sword]

Excellent perspective! http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Blindside]

1) Possibly correct. That would depend on the individual.
2) Apparrently you are novice enough that you couldn't make it work while others do.
3) Refer to answer #2. But I think you may have a true motive that is headed in another direction about certain people.
4) Theres to much that YOU can't learn. Again refer to answer #2. Live training is a necesity for a lot of systems but some senior instructors don't see it that way and some even base their judgnment solely on forms.
http://www.thebelt.com/
Not saying it's a good program. Just saying that some who are greater than us see it differantly than you.
5) True.
6) Or maybe you were just fooling yourself. You're abilities in no way affect everyone elses.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

[Carol]

Carol,

I spent about 30 minutes a day for about four months in learning the techniques (punch counters, grab arts, club and knife counters). I limited it to how many I could reasonably learn and practice in that time. Mostly, I was after familiarity with the techniques so that I wouldn't be starting from ground zero. The videos helped quite a lot, but, there were still the issues with timing and distance that no amount of solo practice could overcome.

Previous to that, however, I have worked out with the Villari's White to Blackbelt series. Now, I already had a good amount of time and experience in Shaolin Kempo, so much of it was largely review, but I'm sure that the results would be the same as far as the learning of new techniques (by which I mean two-man combinations).

People can learn a great deal from videos, but black belt level skills are not among them in my opinion.

I don't disagree with you sir. Plus, I do not believe the softer skills of discipline, respect, focus, etc. can be effectively taught via video, and these skills are just as much a part of being a black belt as the fighting skills are.

The discipline and structure of your own training speaks a lot for your dedication to trying to make the video solution work for you as well as you could.

Personally, I am not fond of video certifications. But the phrase "class supplement" is something I still associate with college and a very boring history class. :D I think that for the DVD material to be worthwhile, it has to be an impassioned production, as if the instructor genuinely wants to train his/her students to black belt level.

Thanks for offering your feedback :)

[Jonathan Randall]

I don't disagree with you sir. Plus, I do not believe the softer skills of discipline, respect, focus, etc. can be effectively taught via video, and these skills are just as much a part of being a black belt as the fighting skills are.

The discipline and structure of your own training speaks a lot for your dedication to trying to make the video solution work for you as well as you could.

Personally, I am not fond of video certifications. But the phrase "class supplement" is something I still associate with college and a very boring history class. :D I think that for the DVD material to be worthwhile, it has to be an impassioned production, as if the instructor genuinely wants to train his/her students to black belt level.

Thanks for offering your feedback :)

While I agree with all your points, in my experience, the only ones completing such courses (aside from straight diploma mills) already are experienced martial artists who, for some reason or another, are unable to attend formal classes regularly.

In my case, I learned quite a bit from the Krav Maga videos and I am currently working through a very intense and well done boxing video set (I boxed in college).

[Doc]

Whether or not you can learn something from video has nothing to do with the student, but the depth of the material. Sadly there is a great deal of "arts' you could assimilate reasonably from video, but those that you can are not worth learning. I could stand in front of you and teach you something, but if I didn't point out and explain the non-obvious subtleties, it wouldn't matter. Ed Parker did it all the time. People stood there, watched him, and walked away with absolutely nothing. Could you learn 'something' from video? Sure, but it would be useless compared to real martial material. Unfortunately the martial arts, in general, is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, and even lower on video. As 'video reference notes' for real training, yes. Everything else - give me a break. After 50 years, I see this as a really bad joke that makes money. I get requests for 'distance learning' all the time and turn them down. I know you can't learn anything I teach that way. Video study is really the same as that well known Korean art. NoCanDo. Nope I'm with "Danjo" on this one. And say hello to John Bishop for me, we go waaaaay back. :)

[green meanie]

I think when you have a real love for the martial arts you to try to learn any way you can. When you can go to class, you go; when you can't you read, you search for info on the internet, you study video tapes, you do whatever you can to stay involved. I totally get that. I've been in the same situations myself. The thing I don't like about some of these 'distance learning' programs is the way some people have turned it into a scam where all you have to do is buy their video series and they'll make you an instant black belt. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon8.gif

[Hand Sword]

Amen to that!

[John Bishop]

I think I need to clarify a few things. It was never Dan's intention to learn Kajukenbo thru the use of the W.K.O. video series he purchased. He knew up front that THERE ARE NO "distance training / video testing" programs in the Kajukenbo system. The video's are a supplement to a students in school Kajukenbo training, or for experienced martial artists that may be able to pick up some additional material from the system.
Like many people with a Shaolin Kempo background, he first purchased the video's just to see what the root system of the Shaolin Kempo and many of the Hawaiian Kempo systems looked like.
For those who don't know Dan, he is a high school teacher with a master's degree, so he is no stranger to dedication and hard work. Because of the periodic upgrading needed for the teaching credential in his speciality, his college classes took precident over his martial arts classes the past year. When he did develop a interest in learning Kajukenbo, he started practicing with the videos until he could get into a regular class situation. He was not trying to earn any rank, just familiarize himself with some of the techniques before he could get back into regular training.
What he wrote in his first post was his honest evaluation of video training, verses live training with partners of various ranks, under the supervision of a instructor. And you also should know that he has brown belts in both Shaolin Kempo and Shotokan Karate. So, he was at a intermediate/advance level when he started training with the videos.
Most martial arts are very complex physical activities that take years or even decades of hard work to be somewhat competent at. That's why every good instructor still considers himself a student at heart.
It never ceases to amaze me when I see "Black Belt" programs that promise a black belt in 12-18 months. Because every school I've ever been affliated with students with 12-18 month in were usually purple or blue belts. Worst yet, are the video programs that come with a black belt certificate with the tapes. Or promise that you can get achieve black belt proficiency in a year or two.
It takes a solid 3-6 years of in class training under the watchful eye of a instructor, with partners of various ranks, sizes, speed, power before the average student is really proficient enough to become a 1st degree black belt.
So to think that a in-experienced person watching videos on his TV, and trying the material on his in-experienced friend, is actually going have the proficiency of a black belt in a couple years; is just ludicrous.
This video "black belt training" marketing scheme has been going on for probably 10 years or more. But I have yet to see any examples of excellent, good, or even fair black belts who have been totally trained via a video distance learning program.

[Doc]

Hey John. :) I never got the impression he was trying to learn from video. He's smarter than that, and I know Kajukenbo would have no parts of legitimizing that. Like most legitimate schools and styles, videos are only references for those who already study, or the curious lookie-loos.

[scottcatchot]

Good posts, I would like to way in my two cents.

Different people have different styles of learning whether it be visual, kinesthetic, auditory, etc it is fair to say people can learn from videos. I also weigh in on the side that videos in no way compares to havng the interactive plus of live instruction. WHat I have learned from my teaching experience is that the more ways you can utilize all the senses the higher the retention rate. So basically Get in there with everything you can, touch it, smell it, hear it, try to grab everything you can to use to learn your art. I think we can learn some from videos, but like most have stated here they can only take you so far. The same can be said for a live class that offers no sparring.

[scottcatchot]

oops guess I can't use correct words today, darn those homonyms.
I meant weigh in.

[Bigshadow]

Distance learning doesn't work unless you've already trained in the material live. The tapes are a great supplement, but they in no way are a substitute for actual instruction. People are just fooling themselves if they think otherwise.
I wholeheartedly agree! I do not train in Kempo but I believe this applies to many martial arts. When I started training, I tried to watch videos as I trained and I couldn't get anything from them. I gave up watching them. I spent more time reading about the training, that seemed to have more value to me, since there words described what I should feel, and this had a greater impact on my training in class. It hasn't been until fairly recent that I have seen value in me watching video. It is now that I can see the video and "feel" what is being done, because I have had it done to me in real life.

Great post!

[bushidomartialarts]

i've had some good luck with distance training for kenpo and some weapons, and one of the instructors at my school seems to just suck in kata he buys on video. so i have to disagree.

some caveats, though...

1. both dave and i are fairly experienced. i've been training 22 years, dave for 19. we have a solid grounding and understanding of movement.

2. dave and i practice what we learned from the tapes on one another, and on other students, regularly.

3. live instruction is definitely superior.

[Flying Crane]

I think when you have a real love for the martial arts you to try to learn any way you can. When you can go to class, you go; when you can't you read, you search for info on the internet, you study video tapes, you do whatever you can to stay involved. I totally get that. I've been in the same situations myself. The thing I don't like about some of these 'distance learning' programs is the way some people have turned it into a scam where all you have to do is buy their video series and they'll make you an instant black belt. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon8.gif

I agree with what you say about doing what you can if you can't be in class, but I think the time is better spent practicing what you have learned, rather than trying to learn a bunch of new techniques, or forms, or a whole new system.

I think videos can be useful for picking up ideas, and drills and such, but trying to learn concrete material and skills this way is something that I am very skeptical about.

Again, someone with a lot of prior experience may get something of value out of working with videos, but I think there are a lot of subtleties that just cannot get passed on thru video. And if someone is already highly experienced, they shouldn't need to use videos anyway. Their practice should already be solid.

A complete beginner, or someone with only a little experience is pretty much guaranteed to get very limited benefits, at best, if video learning is the only, or the primary way, he is learning.

[Flying Crane]

i've had some good luck with distance training for kenpo and some weapons, and one of the instructors at my school seems to just suck in kata he buys on video. so i have to disagree.

some caveats, though...

1. both dave and i are fairly experienced. i've been training 22 years, dave for 19. we have a solid grounding and understanding of movement.

2. dave and i practice what we learned from the tapes on one another, and on other students, regularly.

3. live instruction is definitely superior.

I appreciate your thoughts on this, especially the caveats to keep it real.

I also in the past have experimented with learning some Chinese forms from video. Ultimately, I let it all go, however, because I realized the forms have a lot of subtleties and movement quality that I could not grasp from video, without a teacher guiding me.

I also suggest that if you learned a form (or techniques, or a system) from video, and never had a chance to work with a real instructor to make sure you got it right, it would be a disservice to teach that material to any students. Until a good teacher helps you make sure you understand it beyond the gross movements, you cannot hope to know it well enough to justify teaching it.

[Danjo]

Whether or not you can learn something from video has nothing to do with the student, but the depth of the material. Sadly there is a great deal of "arts' you could assimilate reasonably from video, but those that you can are not worth learning. I could stand in front of you and teach you something, but if I didn't point out and explain the non-obvious subtleties, it wouldn't matter. Ed Parker did it all the time. People stood there, watched him, and walked away with absolutely nothing. Could you learn 'something' from video? Sure, but it would be useless compared to real martial material. Unfortunately the martial arts, in general, is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, and even lower on video. As 'video reference notes' for real training, yes. Everything else - give me a break. After 50 years, I see this as a really bad joke that makes money. I get requests for 'distance learning' all the time and turn them down. I know you can't learn anything I teach that way. Video study is really the same as that well known Korean art. NoCanDo. Nope I'm with "Danjo" on this one. And say hello to John Bishop for me, we go waaaaay back. :)

Yep. You put it very nicely 'video reference notes' for real training' is the precise value of video's. Even simple things like which direction to step back in and where a lock is supposed to be placed and how close your hips are supposed to be to your opponent in order to make something work are lost when doing these techniques in the air.

I understand that some say that they are visual learners. That's great but the martial arts are not visual. They have to be felt. I think that many people have REDUCED them down to being no more than a visual show, but that sort of martial art has no interest for me. For instance, I'd rather something work than look pretty. If it can be both, great, but In the past I've seen people that had amazing dexterity and flexibility when doing the moves, but couldn't fight their way out of the proverbial paper bag. Reminds me of that bouncer that beat the crap out of Jean Claude Van Damme in New York a few years ago. Van Damme always had very pretty kicks!

[Danjo]

I think I need to clarify a few things. It was never Dan's intention to learn Kajukenbo thru the use of the W.K.O. video series he purchased. He knew up front that THERE ARE NO "distance training / video testing" programs in the Kajukenbo system. The video's are a supplement to a students in school Kajukenbo training, or for experienced martial artists that may be able to pick up some additional material from the system.

Exactly. You made it very clear from the start. The only Black Belt video course I have had access to is the Villari one. I haven't seen Tatum's or Chuck Sullivan's, or Cheif Roman's or anyone else's.



Like many people with a Shaolin Kempo background, he first purchased the video's just to see what the root system of the Shaolin Kempo and many of the Hawaiian Kempo systems looked like.

I had heard so many times how close Shaolin Kempo is to Kajukenbo, that I wanted a first hand look see. They Are NOT the same thing. There have been many many changes (additions and deletions) from Kajukenbo to Shaolin Kempo Karate in terms of material. The basics are pretty similar.


When he did develop a interest in learning Kajukenbo, he started practicing with the videos until he could get into a regular class situation. He was not trying to earn any rank, just familiarize himself with some of the techniques before he could get back into regular training.


Once again, exactly correct.



Most martial arts are very complex physical activities that take years or even decades of hard work to be somewhat competent at. That's why every good instructor still considers himself a student at heart.

Complex and physical is the very thing that makes live training a prerequisite to expertise. One just can't get that from the videos.


So to think that a in-experienced person watching videos on his TV, and trying the material on his in-experienced friend, is actually going have the proficiency of a black belt in a couple years; is just ludicrous.

That was my conclusion also. Even if I had had a uke the whole time, I'd have done certain things wrong and then concluded "It must not really work." However, when someone is ther showing you what you're doing wrong, you say, "Son of a gun! It works after all!"


Look, I feel for people who for whatever reason can't get to decent instruction, but it still doesn't mean that the video training is an adequate substitute. Perhaps someday someone will come along and prove me wrong on this one, but I'm pretty sceptical about this.


Dan