Jkd

[Bob Hubbard]

What is JKD? Many ask this question. Here, we strive to answer it, and discuss all things JKD.

One definition is this : "Jun fan Jeet Kune Do is the complete body of technical (physical and scientific) and philosophical (mental, social, spiritual) knowledge that was studied and taught by Bruce Lee during his lifetime."

We here at Martialtalk.com welcome all those interested in this topic, and ask that those experienced share their knowledge with us all. :)

[Cthulhu]

In my mind, the term "*Jun Fan* Jeet Kune Do" places limitations on JKD, by basically saying it is the 'style' Lee taught while he was alive. However, had he lived, I'm sure the JKD he'd be practicing now would look very different from so-called Jun Fan JKD. Limiting JKD to the techniques taught when Lee was alive makes JKD more of a style then a concept, which is why I think Inosanto declined to join 'the Nucleus'.

Another think I find disturbing is the amount of people claiming the ability to give certification in JKD. Only three people were ever certified to teach JKD: Dan Inosanto, Taky Kimura, and the late James Y. Lee. Anyone claiming to teach JKD pretty much has to be able to trace his/her lineage to one of these three men. Without mentioning any names, there are some former sports martial artists claiming to teach JKD nowadays, even though they themselves were really only given a few lessons of private instruction by Lee.

JKD is ultimately a personal expression of martial art. Inosanto's JKD is not Lee's JKD. Golden's JKD is not Inosanto's. Bustillo's is not Richardson's. They all have drawn from their own experience and created a way of fighting unique to them, which in my eyes is one of the key concepts of JKD. To limit it by calling it Jun Fan JKD, or JKD Concepts, or Original JKD really defeats the purpose of JKD.

As Lee himself said, "It's only a name, please don't fuss over it."

And to paraphrase Mas Oyame, "JKD is JKD!"

Alright...only my second post on this forum and I've rambled off already. So sorry.

Cthulhu

[Bob Hubbard]

Ramblings good though. :)
All valid points. Lee was constantly striving to improve, but as has been said many times, how are we to know where he would have taken things? Perhaps by now he would have scrapped it and been developing JKD 2.0? We will unfortunatly never know. But we can talk about it.
:)

Peace, and welcome to MT.

[Cthulhu]

Thanks for the welcome!

Very true...we can all speculate until we're blue in the face, but ultimately we'll never know what Lee would have done. The possibilities are many. There is every possibility that his movie career would have been so successful, he wouldn't have had time to make any new innovations in the martial arts and JKD would have stagnated. Of course, I doubt Insanto or Kimura would have allowed that to happen.

I think anybody who has had appreciable experience in the martial arts, ideally in one system (say, at least 5 years), and has begun to actively research the effectiveness of their art, and scientifically analyzes and incorporates ways to improve the art...adding here, subtracting there...is in essence practicing JKD. I maintain that one must have experience with a 'classical' or 'traditional' martial art, because without that experience, one cannot truly appreciate what Bruce Lee was trying to do with JKD. You can't appreciate a freedom from limitation, if one has never been bounded by them.

So after becoming proficient in your chosen art, and after honestly assessing its strengths and weaknesses, as well as addressing them by determining what will and will not work in a real fight, you could be considered an adherent to the concepts of JKD. The reasoning is fairly simple: by adjusting your knowledge to better accomodate what will work in real life (for yourself...what works for you may not work for me), you are practicing common sense. Which is what JKD really is, isn't it?

Bah. Almost midnight. I'm tired. I can't understand any of this gibberish I just wrote.

Cthulhu

[GouRonin]

I've only had a brief intro to some concepts but my instructor took me to meet his instructor once. We were standing in the kitchen and I was trying to be quiet and listen to see if I could pick up anything interesting when this man came up behind me and tapped me on the shoulder.

I turned around and he said hello and introduced himself as Larry Hartsell. I knew who he was and introduced myself and he told me it was nice to meet me. At that moment my instructor's teacher introduced us to Mr. Hartsell. My instructor mentioned that I was a former boxer gone martial artist and then the two resumed talking regarding a seminar.

Mr. Hartsell asked me if I ever met Ed Parker and sadly I had to say I did not but Larry told me some very kewl stories and then we delved off into boxing. A subject I like to get into. Larry, as he asked me to call him, said he had fought some and so had Ed Parker and then proceeded to square off with me in the kitchen. Holy %$#@!!! There I was with a guy who at an advanced age was quite capable of kicking my @ss. So I did what my coach always taught me to do and that was keep my hands up. Larry threw me some very kewl combinations and I did my best to throw back and defend.

I will never forget my instructor as we drove home. He kept saying, "I turn my back for one moment and then when I turn back you and Larry Hartsell are squaring off in the kitchen. I was sure you'd kiss it good bye."

As it turned out Larry said I was ok and that it was smart to get out of boxing before I got too messed up and expanded my horizons. He gave me a few pointers and shared some fresh bread with me and some kewl stories.

Sorry. I don't suppose that was very JKD oriented in the way of techniques but what can I say? I thought I'd share.

[Cthulhu]

That's great, GouRonin! I love hearing about experiences like that. Unfortunately, there aren't many legitimate JKD guys in my part of Florida that I know of. I have to experience it vicariously through others.

Cthulhu

[GouRonin]

Dude! My buddy Sandor Urban lives in Florida. He's a student of Lee Wedlake and Sean Kelley. 2 Kenpo guys. I hope to hit their Kenpo camp this year.

I know what you mean about having to travel to find guys to work out with. I have a great bunch in my area but like in Kenpo, it sounds like if you want to roll with a lot of the JKD guys you have to travel.

Larry Hartsell and Paul Irish, along with my instructor, have been my only JKD exposure so far and for me that's been pretty positive. Stick with it!

[IFAJKD]

First I would like to say hi to everyone in the forum. My first post here.
I want to respond to the issue of avalibility of JKD Instructors. There are not as many as other systems to be sure, but many JKD Instructors have very Innovative methods of training to be able to accomodate those from other states. I am an Instructor under Paul Vunak and I teach Intensive Personal Training Programs. IPTPs really leave the traditional methods of teaching behind. It is a chance for people who would like to train in JKD but haven't had Instructors close by. Bruce Lee emphasized attributes over techniques. When looking at training in this way, very dynamic training can take place over the coruse of days not years. Lee/Inosanto/Vunak have inspired me with many things but the one that stands out the most is the uncanny way they conceptualize martial arts training...Hence the Jeet Kune Do Concepts vs Original JKD wars. Its not the length of time you train as much as the way and the what of your training when you do.
would like to say more and hear much more. I have enjoyed what I have read so far. Thanks for this opportunity.
Jim:

[Cthulhu]

Welcome to the forums!

I think it's kind of sad how different factions have arisen in JKD since Lee's death. Unfortunately, that often tends to happen upon a founders death: ie, Ueshiba's passing, Parker, Mitose, etc.

Let me toss some questions at ya :)

Did you have previous martial arts training before training in JKD? If so, was it a 'classical' system and how long did you train in it?

Does there seem to be a 'core' art in the system you're training under? For example, do a lot of the basics come from Wing Chun, Jun Fan, Kali, etc.?

Again, welcome aboard!

Cthulhu

[IFAJKD]

I agree. It's sad to see the split. I think that it only says that many people still don't get it. Bruce was about evolution. Myself... I have trained for about 27 years first Judo then Shotokan and then I went into Tae Kwon Do and earned a Black Belt. I stayed with that awhile but I was drawn toward the Filipino Martial Arts and Jeet Kune Do. As far as a common core, yes, in that when an art originally arises it is indeed "martial" that is to say it is about realistic fighting. I tend to think that although tradition has it's place, too much emphasis on this can "stunt" the evolution of the art. Threats change, needs change and one must be flexible. I can tell you the most important lesson Bruce gave as I see it is this... You have to be able to wrestle a boxer - Kickbox a wrestler, Box a Kickboxer and Trap em all. To be able to fight in all ranges is MOST important. To do this you have to leave tradition and style. In essence, transcend the rigidity found in so many Instructors.
Boy is that stuffy???? I hope I didn't rattle too much. If so... Sorry. Jim

[Cthulhu]

Cool. The reason I asked about previous MA experience before JKD is because I've always asserted that to truly appreciate what Bruce Lee was trying to accomplish with JKD, you had to have had extensive experience in a 'classical' system. You can't use 'no way as way' if you have no clue what a 'way' is. You can't be 'liberated' if you've never been constrained. You can't whittle away the inessentials if you've got nothing to begin with.

It always seems to me that those who appear to 'get it' (like I believe you do), were 'classically' trained martial artists before their foray into JKD. I'm glad to see that hypothesis working out so far.

Cthulhu

[IFAJKD]

Again: Prayers to everyone out there. Be Safe. Thanks for the confidence. I have enjoyed reading your posts. I have seen those excellent martial artists out there who get it who haven't been classically trained. (some of them I've trained) It seems so many "marry" their style and their Instructor and never look at the larger picture. So much is up to the person. If you look at the big picture in life in general, then you will look in MA as well. What do you think ? Paul Vunak states.... "Learn to play their game and find ways to cheat" Bruce Lee thinking in its most classic sense.

Jim Miller

[Cthulhu]

To paraphrase Bruce Lee, unless we grow extra arms and legs, there is really only one way to fight. The different systems merely have different concentrations and emphasis.

I believe in Lee's saying that fighting should just be "...punch when you have to punch, kick when you have to kick." My instructor stated it even more succinctly when he said that when fighting, you either "move, or don't move."

These may seem to be overly simplistic statements, but the goal is the return to simplicity; to get back to the point where "...a punch is just a punch, a kick just a kick." Unfortunatly, becoming simple can be extremely complicated :)

Cthulhu

[arnisador]

Originally posted by IFAJKD
Hence the Jeet Kune Do Concepts vs Original JKD wars.

Could someone bring me up to speed on this issue?

Also, is there an accepted definition of JKD Concepts vs. JKD?

[Cthulhu]

Well, I'm not too sure what the current state of the issue is, but...

A rift was created between people who thought JKD should be taught just the way it had been when Lee died ('Original' JKD) and the people who believed that JKD was an evolutionary process that went through continual adaptation (JKD 'Concepts'). Most the of 'Concepts' people seem to have an Inosanto lineage and most of the 'Original' people seem to be either students who trained with Wong or those who trained with Lee but were never certified instructors under him.

The 'Original' JKD people maintain that JKD should be taught just as Lee taught it before his death. In essence, they've made JKD a concrete 'style' which is something that Lee was against. They tend to disapprove of Inosantos's introduction of FMA into JKD, though that was initiated before Lee died. Some of them also seem to forget that Lee had turned the schools over to his instructors, J. Lee, Kimura, and Inosanto, and he rarely trained anymore students near his death, as he was busy making films and also wanted to take the time to train himself.

The 'Concepts' people are of the mindset that JKD is more of a philosophy, or set of concepts, applied to MA training, particularly 'absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, add what is specifically your own', though that is but one of many principles involved in JKD. As such, it is a continually evolving entity, with different interpretations from person to person, as it becomes a personal expression after enough training. However, some people add and discard without fully researching, which is basically the wrong way to go about it. They see something they like, they just add it without a comprehensive study. Likewise, if they don't like something, they reject it without a second thought.

Like I stated earlier, to me, paraphrasing Mas Oyama, 'JKD is JKD!'.

However, since I'm just a pontificating baffoon, I defer to the certified JKD MartialTalk members.

Cthulhu

[arnisador]

I asked (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=806) in the Wing Chun forum about the differences between Wing Chun and Jun Fan Kung Fu and received some informative responses; I'd be curious to hear other opinions on it here or there! As a beginning student of JKD I have much yet to learn. I'll have to re-read all the JKD books I bought many many years ago for general knowledge with a more careful eye.

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by arnisador
I asked (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=806) in the Wing Chun forum about the differences between Wing Chun and Jun Fan Kung Fu and received some informative responses; I'd be curious to hear other opinions on it here or there! As a beginning student of JKD I have much yet to learn. I'll have to re-read all the JKD books I bought many many years ago for general knowledge with a more careful eye.

A couple of books to look for, but may be difficult/impossible to find:

Jeet Kune Do: The Art and Philosophy of Bruce Lee
and
The Filipino Martial Arts

both by Dan Inosanto. The first book's JKD relevance is obvious, but I've found a lot of JKD themes in the second book.

Both are now out of print and hard to find. I've been fortunate enough to get both used for only cover price. Alibris, a used/rare book dealer, has one copy of The Filipino Martial Arts going for $220USD!

Let this be a lesson to you: many used book dealers know diddly-poop about martial arts books...you can find many good deals, if you search hard enough.

Cthulhu

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
The Filipino Martial Arts

Fortunately I was always a martial arts bibliophile and have a copy of it from way-back-when.

Is there a particular book that those knowledgeable in JKD would suggest for someone just starting to study it? I know there are a number of works on it but what would be most helpful at the beginning?

[Cthulhu]

All three of Inosanto's JKD books, though Absorb What is Useful... has stuff comparing cinematic and practical MA that doesn't quite belong.

Chris Kent has a set of books out called a 'JKD Encyclopedia' or somesuch. I've only skimmed it so far.

Hartsell and Tackett have books out as well.

From what I've seen (and what little I remember), the books by Kent, Hartsell, and Tackett pretty much all cover the different types of attack (SDA/SIA, H/FIA, ABC, ABD, PIA), stress power-side forward, as well as other things that are mentioned in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

Best thing to do would be to see if your local Borders or B&N has any of these books and just sit down and read a few chapters. Real easy to decide if any of the books are good for you, which is the most important thing.

Oh, and IFAJKD tells me that Vunak's book on JKD is also very good. I've yet to see that in a regular bookstore, though...probably has to be a mail order/Internet order purchase.

Cthulhu
rambling cuz this headache is affecting my thought processes

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Oh, and IFAJKD tells me that Vunak's book on JKD is also very good.

My instructor is a student of Mr. Vunak so this (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/086568149X/qid=1012625550/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_10_2/102-4447365-8711356) may be what I need.

I'm looking for the big picture as well as the mechanics of techniques to help me remember what I learn in class.

[Baoquan]

Cthulhu - you couldn't have got it any more "right" - IMHO (another "non-certified" JKD kid) the "pontificating buffoon" is JKD!!:D

Cheers

Bao

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Baoquan

Cthulhu - you couldn't have got it any more "right" - IMHO (another "non-certified" JKD kid) the "pontificating buffoon" is JKD!!:D

Cheers

Bao

Thanks, Baoquan :) However, since I'm just a bookworm when it comes to JKD, I still defer to the board members who are actually certified. If I didn't, I'd be no better than the phonies who promote themselves as JKD instructors but have no real knowledge of JKD other than its name and the money it can bring them.

Cthulhu

[Baoquan]

I agree, to an extent - but Lee and Inosanto have been quoted saying things like "What is JKD? This meal is JKD." - meaning that JKD is the spirit and purpose of a thing, not a thing in and of itself.

(To risk opening an old, and IMHO very tired can of worms, you may see i'm sitting in the "Concepts" camp :D ).

In many ways, studying JKD is the act of training with or under someone who has studied JKD/JunFan formally. But it is also very much just a way of looking at things, which it seems you're doing.

Michealangelo once said that sculpting a horse was simply a process of starting with a stone, and taking away all the parts that aren't a horse. Mihealangelo was JKD centuries before Sigung Lee was born!!

Cheers

Baoquan.

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Baoquan

I agree, to an extent - but Lee and Inosanto have been quoted saying things like "What is JKD? This meal is JKD." - meaning that JKD is the spirit and purpose of a thing, not a thing in and of itself.

(To risk opening an old, and IMHO very tired can of worms, you may see i'm sitting in the "Concepts" camp :D ).

In many ways, studying JKD is the act of training with or under someone who has studied JKD/JunFan formally. But it is also very much just a way of looking at things, which it seems you're doing.

Michealangelo once said that sculpting a horse was simply a process of starting with a stone, and taking away all the parts that aren't a horse. Mihealangelo was JKD centuries before Sigung Lee was born!!

Cheers

Baoquan.

I agree. I believe there are MANY people who practice the essence of JKD without even knowing they are. I'm not talking about the people who keep piling technique upon technique upon themselves, or reject anything they don't like simply because they don't like it without having done proper research. I'm talking about the people who experiment with different ideas, techniques, principles...who can squeeze the essence out of them and apply it to what they do, if possible. The people who make a stone cold honest assesment of what they do and realize, 'This is crap' or 'This is good, but better this way'.

People like Wally Jay, Remy Presas, even Chuck Norris in his competition days, when he trained in Okinawan karate to improve his hand techniques because he researched it and found them to be better for his tournament fighting.

But, it's well after 2am and I must sleep.

:cheers:

Cthulhu

[IFAJKD]

Man JKD is simple direct and to the point. It simply takes the path of least resistance and does so by any means. There was never a beginning or an end with JKD it just is. There are underlying concepts and certainly some commonalities but beyond that it simply flows.
Best thought of as a way of looking at it. How do we see it use it and learn from it. Paul would joke when someone would beat him to the punch on a topic and say "well man you JKD'd me dude".
thats what it is.

Never much into too many books on JKD but Paul's is good
Jeet Kune Do, It's Concepts and Philisophies"

[jmdrake]

Hello Cthulhu,

I think this is a matter of terminology and perspective than anything else. Contrary to popular opinion, Dan Inosanto does NOT mix FMA with JKD. At least that's not what I've picked up from his website. Look at the tapes he's recently released. There's the "Jun Fan Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do kickboxing" tape and seperate tapes on Filipino Martial Arts. Dan says that JFGU is the "base" for JKD. Well OJKD people are into refining their skills in the "base". They may or may not train other arts on the side, but they are primarily interested in the "base". Once we better understand each others terminology we can move past bickering and actually being learning from each other. Wouldn't that be nice?

Regards,

John M. Drake



Originally posted by Cthulhu

Well, I'm not too sure what the current state of the issue is, but...

A rift was created between people who thought JKD should be taught just the way it had been when Lee died ('Original' JKD) and the people who believed that JKD was an evolutionary process that went through continual adaptation (JKD 'Concepts'). Most the of 'Concepts' people seem to have an Inosanto lineage and most of the 'Original' people seem to be either students who trained with Wong or those who trained with Lee but were never certified instructors under him.

The 'Original' JKD people maintain that JKD should be taught just as Lee taught it before his death. In essence, they've made JKD a concrete 'style' which is something that Lee was against. They tend to disapprove of Inosantos's introduction of FMA into JKD, though that was initiated before Lee died. Some of them also seem to forget that Lee had turned the schools over to his instructors, J. Lee, Kimura, and Inosanto, and he rarely trained anymore students near his death, as he was busy making films and also wanted to take the time to train himself.

The 'Concepts' people are of the mindset that JKD is more of a philosophy, or set of concepts, applied to MA training, particularly 'absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, add what is specifically your own', though that is but one of many principles involved in JKD. As such, it is a continually evolving entity, with different interpretations from person to person, as it becomes a personal expression after enough training. However, some people add and discard without fully researching, which is basically the wrong way to go about it. They see something they like, they just add it without a comprehensive study. Likewise, if they don't like something, they reject it without a second thought.

Like I stated earlier, to me, paraphrasing Mas Oyama, 'JKD is JKD!'.

However, since I'm just a pontificating baffoon, I defer to the certified JKD MartialTalk members.

Cthulhu

[sweeper]

That brings up the question, Who teaches FMA as JKD? Who has teachers or knows teachers that teach FMA as JKD?

From what I know (as stated above) Dan Inosanto does not, at the inosanto academe the classes are seperate and certification by dan is seperate. And I'm not talking about an instructor teaching FMA and JKD in the same class but rather actualy calling FMA JKD. For example my instructor teaches FMA and JKD in the same class but he says "this is a Kali drill" or "this is JKD footwork" he does teach empty hand drills like Hubuddebudbud(sp?) and incorperates it with other flow type drills for empty hand fighting (the JKD aspect of the class) but that isn't realy adding to JKD is it? Anyway the question realy is how many people in the world actualy have added to JKD as aposed to learned another art and taught it along side JKD?

[IFAJKD]

Sweeper brings up a thoughtful question. Who has "added" to JKD. ? I don't believe anyone has. Just ;like nobody has added to TKD or WC or anyother established system. But this is also a paradox because JKD has always been taught as evolutionary.
Dan Inosanto does not teach JKD and FMA as one system. Most do not. In fact I know of nobody who teaches it as one system. What is important is that they all flow together. This is known as the JKD matrix in that like you would have no use for seperate classes for the Jab and the cross and later the hook. You have to bring it all together.
It has to flow. Many people are confused as to some of the reasons we train in JKD, JKDC, FMA BJJ WB, TB, SF and other systems. In short there is no complete system, not even JKD. To train in so many different systems in part or the complete system, can be problematic if ther is no way to connect them and it's here that JKD adds its connective tissue through entries, 5 ways of attack, trapping and major tools.
Although nobody has aded to JKD, I do believe that Paul Vunak has to some degree created a hybrid, simplified version of making JKD functional in a hurry for the average person. Rapid Assault Tactics is his way of disecting the elements of a fight and explaining a way off looking at it.
Before anyone goes crazy here.....

1. It is his way of looking at it not "THE" way

2. JKD and functionality is up to the person training. JKD as it is is functional but to be able to use it "YOU" have to be too. That means attribute training.

When I am teaching I will begin with the most sensitive based arts first
A) weapons FMA
B) Trapping
This is usually followed by attribute development: Here as an example we may draw from some of the three step drills from Panatuken and Panajakman and utilize Savate or Thai techniques to train. We may start in the kicking range and work through Kali type interceptions to blast to trapping to HKE or ground fighting.

We will also isolate techniques to train and we also work on conditioning.
Add to this weapons sparring that work single and double weapons and weapons of differing lenghth and attributes. Freestyle empty hand sparring and ground fighting and we have gone through many many different systems. Here JKD is a part of the whole.
There are focus nights for just JKD and just weapons and just Trapping & Flow drills.
That is my school in a nut shell. Sound familure at all ?

[arnisador]

Yes IFAJKD, your school sounds quite familiar!

My JKD instructor is very clear about what is a Kali drill, a savate technique, etc. It's taught in one class except for the BJJ, which is a separate class immediately following the JKD class.

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by sweeper

That brings up the question, Who teaches FMA as JKD? Who has teachers or knows teachers that teach FMA as JKD?

From what I know (as stated above) Dan Inosanto does not, at the inosanto academe the classes are seperate and certification by dan is seperate. And I'm not talking about an instructor teaching FMA and JKD in the same class but rather actualy calling FMA JKD. For example my instructor teaches FMA and JKD in the same class but he says "this is a Kali drill" or "this is JKD footwork" he does teach empty hand drills like Hubuddebudbud(sp?) and incorperates it with other flow type drills for empty hand fighting (the JKD aspect of the class) but that isn't realy adding to JKD is it? Anyway the question realy is how many people in the world actualy have added to JKD as aposed to learned another art and taught it along side JKD?

From my understanding Dan's JFGF and JFKB classes don't have any FMA in them. FMA is taught is a seperate class. That is different to me than what you are describing. Different doesn't mean bad, just different.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[sweeper]

yeah, to the best of my knowledge dan inosanto's instructors don't have many standards that they have to stick to in the way that they teach (someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not an instructor). I'm not learning at the inosanto academe and my instructor teaches kali and JKD in the same classrooms, I was talking about two diffrent things in that statement. One being how dan inosanto teaches and certifies instructors the other being my personal experience.

[IFAJKD]

yeah, to the best of my knowledge dan inosanto's instructors don't have many standards that they have to stick to in the way that they teach

Actually, Guru Dan Inosanto, has tremendous standards on how someone teaches in terms of style and ability and academic knowledge, (history, reference, theory). As with any JKDC student however, there is permission to alter and change something to better fit your situation and/or add to the art. This constant evolution is what the JKD aspect is about. While doing this you still have to maintain the knowledge of what Bruce Lee originally taught but understand why the "concept" of JKD applies to everything we train and how it's interwoven into the flow of all that we do.

my instructor teaches kali and JKD in the same classrooms,

Teaching Kali or FMA and JKD at the same time is important and yes Dan Inosanto does this too. There is a class that is simply "Mixed Arts"
I will use myself as an example however. I teach JKD, JKDC, FMA systems, Muay Thai, Boxing, and BJJ at the same time.( I also have seperate focus classes) I seperate it out from one technique to the other so people know what is from what, but it has to be linked together or you end up with students who don't know how it all flows. One of the most important concepts is the concept of "flow" it has to all link together range to range and style to style. There is no reason to keep it all seperate from eachother at all times. In fact those that do it this way may be hindering the process of functionality when it comes to putting it all together. I have always said that in this way JKD becomes the connective tissue. If not we have lost the JKD concept and have done nothing more than bring different styles together and trained in different ranges. JKD is how we go from point A to point Z and at times is point A and/or Z. Sometimes theses destinations are FMA or Muay Thai or others. It can be anything. Any combination because it is all woven together. In this way (technique) there is no seperation. The only seperation is in the (academic) sense and the intellectual knowledge that we teach as we train or isolate technique to train for the required perfection and attribute.
Hope this makes sense

[sweeper]

Hope this makes sense
Uhm.. think you basicly just said "fighting is fighting and any distinction between styles is of an academic/intelectual nature but wouldn't apply to the application of said styles under real situations."


Actually, Guru Dan Inosanto, has tremendous standards on how someone teaches in terms of style and ability and academic knowledge, (history, reference, theory).

but doesn't guru dan allow his students to teach in what ever order/format they find most comfortable? So some instructors teach more of one thing than another or teach drills in diffrent orders?

[IFAJKD]

Uhm.. think you basicly just said "fighting is fighting and any distinction between styles is of an academic/intelectual nature but wouldn't apply to the application of said styles under real situations."

Wow.

Dan Inosanto does permit and encourage his students/Instructors to teach as they would best teach in whichever format they choose. However his standards on "knowledge" is very high. Example is looking at some of his more "famous" students and their specialties:

Burton Richardson: Overall flow artist. explores more diverse arts as well as the African arts. Strong JKD"concepts" approach as base

Paul Vunak: Hand Trapping. Theory to simplfy fighting identify stages (R.A.T.) Heavy on applicable skill. Most recent focus....Kino Mutai, BJJ. Attribute development

Terry Gibson : Deceased. His focus was Silat and Indonesian Arts. Strong Trapper but excelled in weaponry.

Rick Tucci: Filipino Martial Arts. Perfection Drilling ARTIST

Larry Hartsell: JKD Groiund Fighting. Heavy application background

Chris Kent: Original Jeet Kune Do as well as concepts but strong focus on the Original JKD focus.

Everyone has a seperate focus. Vunak has really incorporated Kino Mutai into his focus yet Dan INosanto only gave two people the art of Kino Mutai.

This is the simple beauty of it all isn't it !!!!!!

[Magua]

before he passed bruce lee saw where jkd was leading and he spoke not too pleasantly of it in a few interviews..
it's disappointing to see it turn into more a complex 'style' as opposed to his original idea of it being merely a guide or idea if you will to help us better ourselves and further our progress as martial artists..
in the sense of survival in real life situations,restriction to a certain 'style' will most likely do more harm than good to the practicioner..
jeet kun do was a philosophy designed to free us from such ideas and restrictions

[IFAJKD]

Strange: I don't find it sad at all. Nor do I think Dan Inosanto, (one of Bruce's best friend and the only one allowed to continue to teach after he closed his schools down) missed the JKD boat as it were. When Bruce spoke and wrote of chipping away at the unessentials, he didn't mean to limit technique but to limit you unessary movements to acomplish or realize those techniques. JKD is still what it always has been. If you have compartmentalized what JKD is and is not then haven't you limited yourself to that notion rather than liberated yourself. JKD today is not conforming and can still adapt to anything. Today also, fighters are much more sophisticated and as such so is JKD.

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by Magua

before he passed bruce lee saw where jkd was leading and he spoke not too pleasantly of it in a few interviews..
it's disappointing to see it turn into more a complex 'style' as opposed to his original idea of it being merely a guide or idea if you will to help us better ourselves and further our progress as martial artists..
in the sense of survival in real life situations,restriction to a certain 'style' will most likely do more harm than good to the practicioner..
jeet kun do was a philosophy designed to free us from such ideas and restrictions

Hello Magua,

Good point. JKD is in some circles a "personality cult". People more concerned about lineage than about ability. Matt Thorton had a good take on this. While I don't agree with everything he says he does have some good insights. http://www.straightblastgym.com/questions2.html

Regards,

John M. Drake

[IFAJKD]

Good point. JKD is in some circles a "personality cult". People more concerned about lineage than about ability.

Anything can become a personality cult. However I think to make such a broad statement can be considered offensive to those who have worked hard at their art. Never have I run accross an art where people are willing to prove their "abilities" Because JKD people eminating from Dan Inosanto's line, train in many different arts does not mean we teach it as "JKD". It seems so many people have a problem with how we cross train into many different arts and are able to flow from one to the other. And yes, we do have the abilities to use it well. As in any art there are those who cannot fight as well as the next person. So what. Skill are varible.
Matt has some good points. Some not so good. Such is life for all of us huh.

jeet kun do was a philosophy designed to free us from such ideas and restrictions

I think that the fact that we can and do train in the varried areas we do is testement to this fact is it not ?

[jmdrake]

Hello IFAJKD,

It's true that anything can become a personality cult and it's sad when it happens. Yes it's a blanket statement but as the saying goes "if the shoe fits, wear it." Notice that I didn't mention any specific person. There's more than one JKD personality cult out there. It's important not to put people up on pedastles. And it's important to keep an open mind about things. I recently found out that actually my certifcation can be traced back to Dan. Does that automatically make me any better? Of course not. I could care less and so could any mugger out on the street. He pulls out a gun or a knife and I pull out a piece of paper or a membership card? Ok, fine. If your under Dan or Ted Wong or anyone and you have an open mind about what you do then the "personality cult" comment doesn't appy to you and you shouldn't be offended.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Magua]

i'd like to thank mr. drake for reiterating what i've previously stated..
i did not mean to imply that all jkd practicioners are afflicted with a closed mind..it is a problem that exists in more than many styles..to all those who donnot fit this statement,i salute you and i thank you for keeping the martial spirit alive..
ultimately it is the individual and not the style who make the longest lasting impressions..
bruce lee and jeremy glick are 2 of many examples in this and it is my belief that we owe them a great thanks

[IFAJKD]

ok I have to bite quick then steer clear......How is LD tracing to Dan Inosanto ? I ask for purely educatoional reasons. If he does shouldn't you have known that from the start ?

Magua: No not all JKD people fit any mode. None the less ther are far more talented JKD people than not. It seems the bad ones get all the attention. The fact that it is a young system and easily traced to proper authority lends itself to a certain celebrity status in the MA world. Fact is that it can only trace to one of two people alive today. It is then hard not to be involved with these people. If you have ever been around them you notice instantly they are in a class with no body else. That doesn't mean they are more than human beings. Their skill however, like anyothers at that level ( and there are very very few) has to be respected and admired and their knowledge acknowledged.

John it is sad when these personality seekers do so for the name. They then miss what these people truly have to offer by being pathetically star struck. It does however seem difficult for some to give others the respect they deserve because it threatens their legitimacy. If this doesnt apply to you, then great. It most certainly does to others huh.

[Magua]

it is the student that i was speaking of..who the originator was is irrelevant to my statement..i respect all styles and practicioners..
it maybe true that a jkd practicioners may in certain areas be more advanced than practicioners of another style,i did not mean to single out any one style..i only mentioned jkd in particular because unless i'm mistaken this is a jkd forum..
i merely wished to address a problem that exists in all styles..if the shoe fits..you know the rest

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by IFAJKD

ok I have to bite quick then steer clear......How is LD tracing to Dan Inosanto ? I ask for purely educatoional reasons. If he does shouldn't you have known that from the start ?


He has a cert from Jerry Poteet. Someone other than LD told me that Jerry was certified under Dan. I haven't been able to verify that last part one way or the other. I'm happy with my training either way.



John it is sad when these personality seekers do so for the name. They then miss what these people truly have to offer by being pathetically star struck. It does however seem difficult for some to give others the respect they deserve because it threatens their legitimacy. If this doesnt apply to you, then great. It most certainly does to others huh.

For the record I think Dan Inosanto is a fine martial artist and a fine person. I've never read where he said anything negative about anyone. I have seen negative things being said by people from his "camp" but then negative comments have come from just about every camp. I also appreciate just about everything I've heard from Diana Inosanto. What goes on no more reflects badly on them than does the acts of English soccer fans on the actual atheletes.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[IFAJKD]

From what I know, Jerry was a student but never certified by Dan. Diana Lee Inosanto is great. She moves unbelievebly well. Have you ever watched Dan Inosanto training (not just teaching) just curious. Cool you are happy with training under LD. Although I have issues with what LD claims to be doing, I have to say that I have not seen him move. most of his written theory is ok from what I have read.
So much politics in JKD and even more from those outside looking in. There is a fine line from those of us committed to JKD, to address to an extent, the claims and comments of others and challenge interpretations of those not involved in the art. The general public's education falls as a responsibility to us.
John you and I have not agreed on much but we have both agreed that there are seperate camps out there. Some questionable others illegit for sure. Beasly for one, has taken many students with him and clouded them on JKD. I simply hate to see that happen. Someone like that has power by fame and media and can influence many people who are unaware. Where do we draw the line.
To some extent these politics have to exist.
It would be nice if there were clear answers. I know I don't trust the honor of others to be the answer. Many too fame hung self motivated.
Peace

[jmdrake]

Hello,

I've never seen Diana training or teaching. I haven't even seen her on video. Does she ever do seminars? I would love to attend one. I know she's supposed to be starring in a new film http://www.forbiddensamurai.com/ and I plan to see it when it comes out. Also what is the policy at Dan's school on "drop ins"? Since I live on the other side of the country it's pretty much a moot point, but if/when I'm on the west coast I would love to check things out for myself. Anyway, what I like about Diana is the articles I've read that she has written. She just comes across as genuinely nice.

You're right. Beasley is confusing. Does he really have a lot of students? I've just never heard anyone say anything positive about him. I've never seen his videos, but I have read his articles. He contradicts himself too much for me. I would think most people could see this, but perhaps not. I don't know. Perhaps there is a place for politics as long as it's kept in perspective. But it's so easy to get carried away. I just read where someone said they were getting threatening emails from one camp (not yours or mine) because they were in a heated dispute from the camp "leader" over training tactics! It's just not worth all that. I'm certain that this particular "leader" is honorable and wouldn't ever want anyone under him to do something like that.

Regards,

John M. Drake


Originally posted by IFAJKD

From what I know, Jerry was a student but never certified by Dan. Diana Lee Inosanto is great. She moves unbelievebly well. Have you ever watched Dan Inosanto training (not just teaching) just curious. Cool you are happy with training under LD. Although I have issues with what LD claims to be doing, I have to say that I have not seen him move. most of his written theory is ok from what I have read.
So much politics in JKD and even more from those outside looking in. There is a fine line from those of us committed to JKD, to address to an extent, the claims and comments of others and challenge interpretations of those not involved in the art. The general public's education falls as a responsibility to us.
John you and I have not agreed on much but we have both agreed that there are seperate camps out there. Some questionable others illegit for sure. Beasly for one, has taken many students with him and clouded them on JKD. I simply hate to see that happen. Someone like that has power by fame and media and can influence many people who are unaware. Where do we draw the line.
To some extent these politics have to exist.
It would be nice if there were clear answers. I know I don't trust the honor of others to be the answer. Many too fame hung self motivated.
Peace

[IFAJKD]

Diana Inosanto does do seminars. far as drop ins at the Inosanto Academy I would encourage you to check out their site. I know they prefer to have visitors plan in advance. They have a fee guide as well.

Beasly: Confusing yes...His so called college class and certified in JKD by Lewis as well as his general slamming of "concepts" people ( I hate that term but for lack of a more expediant description)

What is this threatening emails crap about ? I can't believe that anyone would have such a heated response to training tactics. I am glad I'm not in that one. As you know I can get quite heated all by myself. not good.:argue:

I just recently reconnected with my very first instructor in FMA and JKD. what a gas. There too politics however. Hard to get away from. But you know I just love the learning and the training.
John still looking to hook up with you too someday. OJKD dude. maybe we can argue in person then huh. LOL.
Later.

[Aikia]

IFAJKD,

I have only recently joined this forum. I can see you have questions. This post may make you feel better. I do not own a JKD school, nor do I make any attempt to recruit students from other JKD schools. I only accept black belts who contact me after studying my video series entitled "Jeet Kune Do: Scientific Streetfighting". Black Belts completing an exam ($60) may earn a certificate stating that they have studied the tape series and have demonstrated the skills taught in the program. You can find out more at www.aikia.net (http://www.aikia.net). Most bkack belts interested in my JKD affiliation attend the world famous Karate College summer camp for personal instruction and testing. The series was filmed at the Panther Video studio in CA. Several volumes remain on the Top 10 list in JKD for Century Martial Arts. The information is certainly not exclusive to JKD students and has been used by martial artists of various styles. The emphasis is on contact sparring. The reasons I accept only black belt students is because I prefer to remain noncommercial and I feel that JKD is best experienced by those who already understand the limitations of fixed systems. From 1993-1997 I promoted the First Original JKD camps at Radford University where I am employed as a Professor. Perhaps that's where you assumed I was recruiting students.

I am not shure why you would think that I "slammed" the concepts group.
After all I wrote the first published article on the Larry Hartsell JKD group of Charlotte NC in 1983. I followed Dan Inosanoto for five years at summer camps and seminars, training, collecting information etc. I wrote and published the first book on the concepts method in 1988, endorsed on the cover by Dan Inosanoto. I even put Paula in a magazine article (abouytDan) in 1988. In fact I have proabably written a number of articles that you have read. Do you remember? Sounds more like I have personally promoted the concepts group. Now that we have cleared that up, I'll bet you agree. How's the fishing in MINN?


Jerry Beasley,Ed.D.
Black Belt Magazine Hall of Fame
Instructor of the Year 2000