katas that go with music. Love them or hate them?

[MMAfighter]

You know those katas where the practitioner tries to move to the beat of the song. Do you like or hate those? I honestly don't like them at all.....doesn;t look cool or anything to me. Just my opinion. What's yours?

[Sam]

I just... words fail me...

if you want to do a routine to music, try gymnastics. People rarely attack on beat in a rhythm.

[Brian R. VanCise]

They are beautiful to watch from a gymnastic/athletic point of view. However from a martial side they are more funny than anything else.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[Flying Crane]

background music while you are training is one thing, but matching a kata with music? gotta hate it with a passion.

[MMAfighter]

YESSSS!!! I'm not alone hahahaha

[Blindside]

I friggin' hate "creative" divisions, especially when the whole dang gym is stuck listening to it. Ever try judging a Sanchin kata when some joker has his techno/rap blasting in your ear. It really doesn't work.

Lamont

[Lisa]

I just... words fail me...

if you want to do a routine to music, try gymnastics. People rarely attack on beat in a rhythm.

Words failed me too when I witnessed kata being performed to East Indian music. I was dumbfounded by what I was witnessing.

[Grenadier]

Depends on the situation. Keep in mind, that I'm much more of a traditionalist, so my viewpoint will be rather biased. :)

We've all probably gotten a good chuckle out of watching ESPN2, where people are doing all sorts of spinning, jumping, twirling moves to the theme from "Mortal Kombat" or some other peppy song. I get even more of a laugh when seeing people using weapons that have built-in LED's... Really, though, if a kata has that many jumps, spins, and yells, or if I see someone doing a sword kata with jumping and spinning kicks, then I tend to crinkle my nose a bit.

However, I've seen traditional kata (Kanku Dai) performed to Asian music, namely the theme from "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon." The group of 4 performing it, were all well trained, each performed the kata facing a different direction. During some times, two were proceeding while the other two were waiting, and at other times, they would perform synchronously. Near the end, they were all facing each other, towards the center, and it was a very nice display, and had none of the stench that normally eminates from the flashy folks' stuff.


I'm a firm believer that kata is best done without background music, distractions, etc., but will be the first to admit that I can appreciate the music when the kata is executed well, and when things are well-planned. Oh yeah, and none of the techno-pop, whizz bang music, either...

[Hand Sword]

I Don't like them. I hate the commercialising of the arts. Some are very impressive to watch though.

[Henderson]

They are an evil plague.

[MMAfighter]

LOL i just saw a video on the whole class doing a kata going with 'eye of the tiger' hahaha man it was stupid

[Sam]

LOL i just saw a video on the whole class doing a kata going with 'eye of the tiger' hahaha man it was stupid

link?

[barriecusvein]

LOL i just saw a video on the whole class doing a kata going with 'eye of the tiger' hahaha man it was stupid

please please please please put the link up, this could well make my year!

(btw i HATE kata to music)

[Aqua4ever]

I'm going to have to go against the trend here. I enjoy watching these kata's/patterns/whatever you want to call them. Keeping in mind though, I feel they have a time and place. Tournaments that put them on a separate day, or before or after all divisions. I don't see a place for them in the dojang, train for them on your own time. They take skill, and perserverance- qualities I believe are good to have.
So i guess i'm torn. I do not in any way consider them true to martial arts- But I do like to watch them.
Aqua
p.s. It could be my age too..17..I like music, and high speed, even though myeself I compete in traditional Korean and love the slow intensity and concentration required!

[MMAfighter]

My god....i saw the beginning of this again...i think i'm gonna puke

here's the link to the whole damn class going with the music
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=840757822899701134&q=kyokushinkai&pl=true

[TimoS]

No surprise that I hate musical kata. Mind you, I wouldn't mind having body control like the girl in this video does: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/105730/karate_girl/

[barriecusvein]

My god....i saw the beginning of this again...i think i'm gonna puke

here's the link to the whole damn class going with the music
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=840757822899701134&q=kyokushinkai&pl=true
:rofl:

i just showed this to my friend who does shotokan, he couldnt speak for about 10 minutes afterwards. why would anyone do this??

p.s. yeah it made my year!

[Aqua4ever]

O my..I just watched the musical Kata group pattern..its not like any i've seen before. I can see why there may be distaste...
Aqua

[shesulsa]

I rarely like them. Putting music on to train by can help the brain train, but ... gawrsh I really HATE watching forms and demos done to music.

[Carol]

OH GOD NO.

OK, as a trained musician I'm a bit sensitive, but someone trying to do kata to music is like someone trying to sing off-key. It's HORRIBLE, doesn't reflect the feel of the music, and doesn't show any respect to the music. Make it stop.......

[Hand Sword]

You mean like William Hung? http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[silatman]

I think that we have to separate this argument between modern music that seeks to showcase an art for demonstation purposes and music that helps the art.
My instructor has just introduced the higher ranking students to music that is called gamalung (?) I spelt it like it is pronounced.
In my art of Silat we use broken rhythem alot and this music helps to ensure that you never keep the same rhythem when your attacking.
As a training tool it is brilliant.
We have been given the music to train out of class so that the lower ranks aren't training while listening to it, so personally I think that in this case doing Kata's or Rupahs as we know them to music is beneficial.
I do agree that Eye of the tiger is NOT a training song!

[Martin h]

Musical Kata.
Pure Undiluted CRAP!!!!

Musical kata is like a test to see which one can performe the most unrealistic techniqus (or even irrelevant stuff like splits) in a minute. All done in a multicollored clownsuit cut like a gi.

I truly, TRULY, hate it.
It is no wonder that karate has a extremely poor rep among more fighting oriented sports in areas where that kind of junk is popular (read "the US").

It has NOTHING to do with karate!

[MMAfighter]

No surprise that I hate musical kata. Mind you, I wouldn't mind having body control like the girl in this video does: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/105730/karate_girl/
Jeez she was flexible....but sitll. WTF

[Sam]

...that girl was wearing a white belt.

[TimoS]

...that girl was wearing a white belt.
That doesn't prove much :D Here's (http://www.sci.fi/%7Endbbm/dsc00548.jpg) a picture of couple of guys in white belt. One of them is 7. dan in jujutsu and karate, the other... well... ;)

[TimoS]

Damn! Double post and I can't delete the other one :(

[Flying Crane]

My god....i saw the beginning of this again...i think i'm gonna puke

here's the link to the whole damn class going with the music
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=840757822899701134&q=kyokushinkai&pl=true

wow. i'm glad i don't study at that school.

[Martin h]

My god....i saw the beginning of this again...i think i'm gonna puke

here's the link to the whole damn class going with the music
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=840757822899701134&q=kyokushinkai&pl=true

On behalf of kyokushin everywhere, I appologize for the musical stuff this one.
I realize they are doing a exhabition of some kind. Probably a poorly rehersed entertainment during the break of a very small competition. but someone should have pulled the plug on that one before it was performed in front of people

[Sam]

That doesn't prove much :D Here's (http://www.sci.fi/%7Endbbm/dsc00548.jpg) a picture of couple of guys in white belt. One of them is 7. dan in jujutsu and karate, the other... well... ;)

I know, its just weird. I am so used to seeing people wearing black belts when they should be yellow, that its odd to see someone wearing a whitebelt that obviously does or should hold rank

[Martin h]

I know, its just weird. I am so used to seeing people wearing black belts when they should be yellow, that its odd to see someone wearing a whitebelt that obviously does or should hold rank

Chloe. The supple girl in the video, is wearing a kungfu uniform of sorts. So technicaly it is not a karate obi/belt it is a kungfu sasch(sp)
And kungfu occationaly use white sasch at high grades.

[MMAfighter]

Thinking about it. That video with the super flexible girl would have been so much cooler with japanese drums pounding the the back.

[still learning]

Hello, Today alot of tournements is about "shows" more a dance performance routines. Flash is in..music is in....money and attendance is big here.

We are losing the traditions and the hardcore..but today people love this more.

You do not have to attend these or enter them. You own schools can have there own programs.

People love to compete..trophies,medals,ribbons, and placing...can seem important to some schools. Let them enjoy this fun...along as it doesn't interfer with the real training.

There are alot of good performers and they are enjoyable to watch. ..Aloha

[Brandon Fisher]

I do not care for them at all. The XMA trend in my opinion has cheapened the idea of kata competition greatly by adding all the flash. However a tradional kata done to traditional asian music could be cool. Keep in mind though I love all type of so called "techno" music. Many times the faster and harder the better.

[MMAfighter]

LMAO i found another one.....i found one cool thing about this though. Streetfighter attacks...other then that this is CRAP!!
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/33415/karate_boy/

[TimoS]

LMAO i found another one

Was that supposed to be karate or capoeira? Nice body control, though

[Flying Crane]

Was that supposed to be karate or capoeira? Nice body control, though

Nothing like capoeira at all. Not even remotely.

[Flying Crane]

Chloe. The supple girl in the video, is wearing a kungfu uniform of sorts. So technicaly it is not a karate obi/belt it is a kungfu sasch(sp)
And kungfu occationaly use white sasch at high grades.

True, and sometimes the color means nothing at all, and the sash is just part of the uniform.

I found it interesting that she was wearing a kung fu uniform. What she did looked absolutely NOTHING like any kung fu I have ever seen.

What it looked like to me was this: A completely non-traditional, made-up, creative kata that was done on top of a base in Tae Kwon Do. I suspect Chloe is a Tae Kwon Do person, and she created this fancy nonsense with the help of her instructor.

Perhaps the Tae Kwon Do people here, like Terry, could weigh in on whether or not this looked like it was based (however loosly) on Tae Kwon Do.

[Martin h]

What it looked like to me was this: A completely non-traditional, made-up, creative kata that was done on top of a base in Tae Kwon Do. I suspect Chloe is a Tae Kwon Do person, and she created this fancy nonsense with the help of her instructor.

That is pretty much a definition of this type of "kata"
non-traditional. Made up, fancy nonsense.

Although the people who are into it are usualy doing a ecclectic mix of TKD, karate and kungfu -where acrobatics and showmanship is far more important than realism and efficiency. It tend to be the same guys that are into XMA and trick-kicking.

Chloe Bruce herself actualy comes from a Tang Soo Do
http://www.chloebruce.moonfruit.com/

[kicksindabank]

for young kids, it seems ok. for adults I don't think it is cool at all.

[pstarr]

I really wish you hadn't put that link up. I HAD to watch it and now my bowels will be afire for the rest of the night!

[TheHeathen]

Oh yes... kata to music.. just horrible </sarc> :rolleyes:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oYcFjErOPXo&search=luca%20valdesi

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BgFoqY1oVsU&search=karate%20italian

[pstarr]

I remember when it first got started. I saw soom of Jhoon Rhee's people do this horrible form to classical music - Rhee created it himself and named it, "Beethoven's Fifth."

Things have only worsened since those days-

[Jimi]

I believe that Jhoon Rhee also created a musical form(Hyung) in his system required for Black Belt. It was called the "God Bless America" form. I've seen it many times, usualy by someone wearing the first generations of the stars and stripes uniform back in the late 70's and 80's. A Filipino demo with Filipino music, acceptable, Thai Arts demo w/ Thai music, yes, a made up competition form dressed like Lou Kang whipping a staff like a mojorette, I think not. Many people of the XMA have youth and talent, but from what I have seen, my Instructors are rolling over in their graves saying "WHY ARE YOU KILLING MY ART!?"

[eyebeams]

I practice kata to music occasionally. I prefer industrial music or electronica with heavy breakbeats. There has to be a rhythm/BPM that is at least at the edge of how fast I can move. I think it's useful, especially when working on applications (you can try different speeds with the music as a guide) or when trying to slow or speed the general pace of the set. But it's not a performance thing.

[Cirdan]

:xtrmshock

I was hoping for a laugh but those clips made me sick to the stomach. Honestly I did not realize such idiocy was humanly possible.

Background music can be ok tough.

[Xue Sheng]

After 30 seconds I shut it down and all I can say is...

That's just wrong

I don't even like Tai Chi forms done to music... but that...... Egad, heavens no....

[Silly Limey]

I hate those; it seems to destroy concentration. For me, katas help perfect techniques, and I think it defeats that purpose if you're doing it to music like a cardio-dance.

[KOROHO]

Hate them. Plus, it's not really kata.
The kata are designed for specific purposes to build certain skill sets. Each kata has a set cadence or rhythem which should aid in developing the skills needed to apply the techniques. By adding music you are keeping to the music instead of the intent of the kata.

I have seen some people do some musical routines. It sure is great exercise when done with fast paced music, but it's just real bad martial arts.

[searcher]

I consider myself to be pretty open-minded when it comes to training and being creative, though I train in and teach traditional arts. I used to compete in open forms in NASKA and the NBL until they introduced "extreme" forms. It is one thing to be creative, but it is another thing to be preforming this crap. If somebody wants to create their own form then that is fine, if they want to perfomr a "musical" kata that is fine. If they leave out martial application that is not fine. If they choose to leave out application for flash they need to call it creative dance. I am not defending or condoning an individuals actions when it comes to creative kata. It is really their own decision. we do live in a society that wants this type of display. As is obvious since they are on ESPN. Many have went ahead and went this route to keep students and feed their families. We just need to keep in mind what we are doing and try to keep our individual arts alive.

If anybody wants to know the "super-flexible" girl is Chloe Bruce from the UK. She is a multi world champion in creative forms as well as traditional forms. I remeber her from back in the days of my own competition career.