Deflecting Hammer

[Rob_Broad]

(front - right front thrust kick)

1)Standing naturally, step back with your left foot toward 7:30 into a right neutral bow stance (to move out of your opponent's line of attack), as you simultaneously execute a right outside downward diagonal block against the outsode of your opponent's right kicking leg. Be sure to have your left check at your solar plexus during your block. (Your opponent's body should turn slightly to his left when your block is properly executed. Your block should additionally, turn your opponent's width, and cause injury to his leg.)

2)Without hesitation, and while still in your right neutral bow, shuffle forward as your left hand checks inward toward and between your opponent's right shoulder and bicep. Your right hand continues to circle, and will re-orbit into an inward elbow strike. (Make sure your left hand checks your opponent's forward momentum as well as the width of his upper body.)

3)Just as you conclude your shuffle execute a right inward horizontal elbow strike to your opponent's face. This is done simultaneously with a left sliding check down and onto your opponent's right elbow. (The effects of both actions should cause your opponent's head to snap back and possibly have your opponent drop to the ground.)

[Kempojujutsu]

In Okinawa Kempo we do not teach to down block front kicks. We use leg blocks, stop hits, parries. If they would get the kick up maybe drive an elbow into the shin or top of the foot. But I would consider this a stop hit.
Bob :asian:

[Bob Hubbard]

Having done both down-blocks and leg blocks I have to ask, which is more effective? I've jammed a few fingers from off blocks.

Now, the question here is, if you replace the down-block with say a knee block, how would that effect this technique? I can see the knee doing more damage, but would it put you in a poorer position for the follow ups?

:asian:

[Kempojujutsu]

Usually after the knee block, I step down and end up trapping one of there feet to off balance them or able to do osoto gari throw, or follow up with just a straight blast to get them to turn away.
Bob :asian:

[Roland]

...you do not need to block!

[Kirk]

Now again, not an expert here, so hopefully someone with a LOT
more knowledge than I will chime in ... but I think that
if you did a knee block here, then you'd have to check inward
toward and between your opponent's right shoulder and bicep
as the knee comes down. The problem there is ... (I think )
that you haven't at that time canceled a zone. With the down
block, the attacker's stance is increased quite a bit as the block
goes out past your body, and you've effectively canceled his
height zone.

maybe?!?
:confused:

[Kempojujutsu]

But if you do a downward block, don't you leave that side of your face/body exposed to some kind of strike. Also some people kick very hard won't this damage your arms/ hands if you try this.
Bob :asian:

[Bob Hubbard]

ok...thinking about this a little more.... I can see the knee shot not allowing you to position correctly...

The down block (which I believe arcs down) will push your opponent to -your- right, where as the knee will stop their forward motion. It seems like a minor difference, but its not.

Hmm.......maybe a left roundhouse kick...then again, that would seem to destabilize your base....:confused:

[Kempojujutsu]

Most of the time when I have done this. Guy throwing kick usually ends up laying on the ground grabbing his shin. What more could you ask for. I actaully had a student do this in a TKD class. The TKD student didn't apprecate the knee into the shin either.
Bob :asian:

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

In Okinawa Kempo we do not teach to down block front kicks. We use leg blocks, stop hits, parries. If they would get the kick up maybe drive an elbow into the shin or top of the foot. But I would consider this a stop hit.
Bob :asian:


We don't either- we redirect and strike as we move off line. We don't strike the shins with our hands but the "muscle" portion on the outside of the leg for this particular technique.


Having done both down-blocks and leg blocks I have to ask, which is more effective? I've jammed a few fingers from off blocks.

You took on a bigger force or your fist was not tight.


Now, the question here is, if you replace the down-block with say a knee block, how would that effect this technique? I can see the knee doing more damage, but would it put you in a poorer position for the follow ups?

The attack is not a round kick. To lift your leg and try to absorb a front thrusting ball kick would leave you on the ground and if your shins were not conditioned unable to get back up. (don't forget steel toed boots) The deflection from redirection and strike causes the opponent to rotate counterclock wise thus opening the angle of entry for the ensuing elbow. Thus the name deflecting hammer- but not trying to match forces with the kick- more like hitting and damaging as it goes by and altering his line of attack and opening up your own.

[Kempojujutsu]

So it is more like a parry but you are using a hammerfist to deflect the incoming kick? Not standing in front of the kick and apply downward block to the shin. Is this correct?
Bob :asian:

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by Rainman

You took on a bigger force or your fist was not tight.

Was an open palm vs side kick if I remember right...


Originally posted by Rainman
The attack is not a round kick. To lift your leg and try to absorb a front thrusting ball kick would leave you on the ground and if your shins were not conditioned unable to get back up. (don't forget steel toed boots) The deflection from redirection and strike causes the opponent to rotate counterclock wise thus opening the angle of entry for the ensuing elbow. Thus the name deflecting hammer- but not trying to match forces with the kick- more like hitting and damaging as it goes by and altering his line of attack and opening up your own. [/B]

I see it now. Thank you. :asian:

Is there a source for a video clip of this technique?:asian:

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

So it is more like a parry but you are using a hammerfist to deflect the incoming kick? Not standing in front of the kick and apply downward block to the shin. Is this correct?
Bob :asian:

For our group it is- but we are also moving off the line of the thrust kick.


Is there a source for a video clip of this technique?

Well not that would show you what you need to know. Yep gotta manged finger myself... the result of improper hand angle or leading with fingers on an incorrect angle for an open hand redirect. The result was losing range of motion for that finger so I teach people to keep the fingers back especially for kicks.

glad I could help guys

:asian:

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Roland

...you do not need to block! Yourself and Kempojujutsu have very good points. In Dragon Kenpo the upward is not taught. In my Clandestine Black Dragon Kenpo Karatejutsu both upward and downward blocking is not taught. We either use ashi sabaki - tai sabaki combinations or knee blocking.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

[kenmpoka]

You are not actually meeting or blocking the kick in its path. In this instance you are redirecting the kick and moving at an angle (45) back and forth striking with the left palm to the ribs or biceps. If your timing is good, you hit the opponent right before his leg hits the ground, disturbing his width and depth setting up for a take down in so many different ways.

:asian:

[fanged_seamus]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

So it is more like a parry but you are using a hammerfist to deflect the incoming kick? Not standing in front of the kick and apply downward block to the shin. Is this correct?
Bob :asian:

Just adding to what kenmpoka said, the key in the technique is the direction of the downward strike/block. As I was taught:

The straight front kick is coming in from 12:00. I would step towards 7:30 and execute the downward strike to the leg. I am now oriented on the 1:30 to 7:30 line, and my strike hits the attacker's legs on the 4:30 to 10:30 line. That cancels both the width and depth of the attacker by drawing the leg past you and rotating the attacker counterclockwise. (If you strike along the 3:00 to 9:00 line, you only upset the width, and the attacker can EASILY respond with a spinning back kick, as my instructor demonstrated rather cruelly on me once :eek: ).

If the attacker wants to hit with a punch, about the only one that can be easily launched would be a right backfist. But the attacker's body is rotating counterclockwise, so launching it would require the balance of an Olympic athlete.

Hope that clarifies things. I REALLY like this technique; it's fast, harsh, and really helped me understand the heighth-width-depth issues.

Tad

[Kempojujutsu]

So the attacker is aiming this kick to the groin, solar plex area. What do you do if they try to kick you in the knee, thigh or shin?
I am not try to convert or say my way is better. But in Okinawa Kempo the attacker can kick from ankle level to head level and the knee block or jam will work. He can also attack with either leg and the block will still work without changing stances. I have seen Muay Thai guys that would rip your arm off if you tried that on them.
Bob :asian:

[Blindside]

It works fine against the thigh kick, but it won't work against the knee or shin kick.

Even a MT teep (thrusting front kick) won't rip you arm off. And no, I wouldn't stick my arm in front of a MT round kick if I could stop or avoid it in any other manner.

I think you are reading too much into a single kick defense. It is sort of like saying the knee block doesn't work against a MT roundhouse to the head. Well of course it doesn't work, it wasn't designed to work against it.

Lamont

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

So the attacker is aiming this kick to the groin, solar plex area. What do you do if they try to kick you in the knee, thigh or shin?
I am not try to convert or say my way is better. But in Okinawa Kempo the attacker can kick from ankle level to head level and the knee block or jam will work. He can also attack with either leg and the block will still work without changing stances. I have seen Muay Thai guys that would rip your arm off if you tried that on them.
Bob :asian:

The great thing about this technique is by moving off line from the attack you are negating his attack. The next question will proabably be what if they throw a different kick, we have different techniques for such.

American Kenpo is a 3 stage system(for most practioners, for practioners like Doc it goes beyond that), the written technique is for the ideal phase. Kempojujutsu is already asking for the second phase the "what ifs". The ideal phase teaches us some good principles of self defense and motion, the what if phase allows us to explore and experiment with those principles. The last phase, is the ultimate goal, and that is spontaneous reaction, there you would flow from applicable part of a defense to another. Another thing to keep in mind is you would never use am actual self defense technique in a real situation you would use parts from various techniques to do what is neccessary to defend yourself.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I have seen this clip before, but I had the opportunity to view again when someone posted this link the other day. Check out the effectiveness of a shin block against a low round kick

http://www.dogbrothers.com/multimedia/kick-bre.mpg

Oh yeah, and in case you doubt the effectiveness of a good back kick, take a look at this....

http://www.dogbrothers.com/multimedia/horse.mpg

[Kempojujutsu]

You've got to love that block, except if your are on the receiving end of it. That was the first time I got to see that clip. several guys I work with told me about it.
Bob:asian:

[Bob Hubbard]

I got a video of this technique tonite courtesy of one of my friends who is a local Kenpo instructor. I'm in the process of doing a quick and dirty edit to it and will post it shortly tonite.

:)

[Bob Hubbard]

ok, heres the clip... My thanks to Sensei Bob Koch at Robert Kochs International Black Belt Academy (http://internationalkenpo.com) for his help in making this..and to Colin the wonder Uki for being the 'attacker'. :)

Its a quick and dirty edit, and I didn't get a clean export to my system so its a tad fuzzy in spots.

Did the technique from 2 angles and slowed both down to 30% speed..also last segment is a more complete version with extensions. Was asked to mention the family groupings that relate to this.

Enjoy. :)

Deflecting Hammer Clip (5MB MPEG) (http://martialtalk.com/video/defhammer.mpg)

[kenmpoka]

Thank you bob for the clip. Although, I don't think the tek was executed real good. Too much telegraphing in the upper body in the beginning, and also the foot work should be a push-drag and not a step pull.

:asian:

[eternalwhitebelt]

Here goes all of the posts of what was wrong with it. Everyone look out! Let the Kenpo killing begin. I think it takes guts to put yourself on film for everyone to critique your every move over and over. Although I do not agree with how he did the tech., I will commend whoever this is for sharing the art and helping to pass it on.

[Rainman]

Although I do not agree with how he did the tech., I will commend whoever this is for sharing the art and helping to pass it on.

Ditto

[Rob_Broad]

Anyone else have a clip of this technique? It would be interesting to see the differences and similarities of the various versions.

[kenpo3631]

The great thing about this technique is by moving off line from the attack you are negating his attack.

Moving off line? To where?

If I am understanding you correctly, are you stepping off on an angle as you block? Which brings me to another point, this technique is not done with the outside downward block, it's not a block- but a closed hand parry.

I'll explain myself more later, but are you describing stepping to an angle Rob?:confused:

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by kenpo3631



Moving off line? To where?

If I am understanding you correctly, are you stepping off on an angle as you block? Which brings me to another point, this technique is not done with the outside downward block, it's not a block- but a closed hand parry.

I'll explain myself more later, but are you describing stepping to an angle Rob?:confused:

Stepping offline of the attack is the same as stepping to away to angle. Just a different way of saying the same thing.

[fanged_seamus]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

Moving off line? To where?

If I am understanding you correctly, are you stepping off on an angle as you block? Which brings me to another point, this technique is not done with the outside downward block, it's not a block- but a closed hand parry.

You are moving towards 7:30 (facing 1:30) if the attack is coming from 12:00 (think of a clock). You then strike with an outward, downward block/strike, not a parry. A parry redirects with minimal force, and misses by inches. Here, you are STRIKING the lower leg with force, drawing it past you at an angle. If the technique were done with a parry, I don't know that you'd upset your attacker's balance sufficiently.

That's my interpretation, anyway. I could be wrong.

Tad Finnegan

[Roland]

.. 'Deflecting' Hammer, right?
I have never heard the term Closed Hand parry before, but it does makes lots o' sense! I like it!

:)

[Bob Hubbard]

The qualitys pretty cruddy on this clip...I had some PC problems... I'm going to try to re-export it next week and see if I cant get a clearer version up. It was a spur of the moment thing when I was at the school. Bob Kochs a cool guy...my GF's a student of his and is testing for black I think next month.

One of the things I see in Kenpo is the variations on each technique. Tweak this, swap out this for that and you have another tech, etc.

I'm hoping to get some more clips of the other techniques we're discussing and put em all up. :)

:asian:

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Roland

.. 'Deflecting' Hammer, right?
I have never heard the term Closed Hand parry before, but it does makes lots o' sense! I like it!

:)

Well in this technique you step back to 6 o'clock. The "General" rule is when blocking step to an angle, when parrying stay on the line. In addition, if you apply this rule to this technique, you will see that if you indeed step to say 7:30 and use an outside downward block, you put your opponent out of the "close" range. This means you need to add steps to get closer to your opponent, heck, he might be at kicking or "long" range.:asian:

[Roland]

That is pretty much how I was thinking, why add steps when you don't need em eh?
If you did off angle, the elbow would be prety much useless then I guess. Time to go in for a kick and then.......................(insert whatever technique you like best here)

[Mace]

Big surprise there, right. :D When you step to 7:30, your downward block will ride the kick past your thigh, basically keeping your opponent on the 12-6 or 11:30-5:30 line. As soon as your left foot hits fire a left palm heel to the shoulder that grabs and pull for the right elbow. The push drag is if you need it, but with a commited attacker I usually don't.
On a side note, I really don't think that you should be teaching a yellow belt to step straight back with an incoming front kick. Liability and cracked ribs and all. :rolleyes: Just offangle and deflect.
Respectfully,
Mace

[Klondike93]

Here's how it was explained to me :

I thought you were suppose to step back to 7:30 deflect the kick and slide in with the inward elbow.

My instructor corrected me to step to 6:00 with the downward block just enough to "stretch" the kick out then push-drag in with the inward elbow. It was pointed out that when I stepped to 7:30 I was now doing the inward elbow on the 7:30-1:30 line instead of straight in on the 12:00-6:00 line. It made sense that their weight is moving on that line, so to get borrowed force you have to be on that line as well.


:asian:

[Roland]

Captured Twigs is left foot, but sideways, because he is behind you, you can't go through him, right!
Grasp of Death is forward, becase he is pulling you ( so to speak)

I think Deflecting Hammer does work better going to 6, but it also fits in with KISS. Teaching the Yellow belts the same move, repeatiton, someone attacks, get out of the way! use same foot, no matter what, cause it is easier to remember as a beginer.

Personally, I like thrusting Salute and others better, because of the off angles, but I see why this one is the way it is.
Tired right now, so heres hoping someone can explain better!



Hey Mace, no problems with disagreeing man, it is all good right?

[Mace]

You are definitely right, its all good. That's what makes these forums fun, there's discussion. Would be kind of boring if we all did it the exact same way. :p

My only problem with stepping to 6 is that you are not teaching a beginner to get out of the range of the attack. Stepping straight back is fine with a shorter weapon, but with such a long range weapon I like the offangle in case the block isn't effective.
Mace

[WilliamTLear]

From what I've been taught... You're supposed to step off of the line of attack by stepping toward 7:30. The best way to avoid being hit... is not to be there.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

My instructor corrected me to step to 6:00 with the downward block just enough to "stretch" the kick out then push-drag in with the inward elbow. It was pointed out that when I stepped to 7:30 I was now doing the inward elbow on the 7:30-1:30 line instead of straight in on the 12:00-6:00 line. It made sense that their weight is moving on that line, so to get borrowed force you have to be on that line as well.


Unless you are striking perpendicular to your opponents path of action, you will have some component of their force moving in your direction. For instance most of the replies have said to step to 7:30 because it will take you off the line of attack (at least for a front kick).

Quick mechanics lesson: Use the standard clock as a reference. You are standing in the center of the clock. Your attacker throws a kick that will travel from the 12:00 mark to the 6:00 mark. For arguments sake, you step to 7:30. By doing so you've changed your angle by 45 degrees (every 30 minutes=15 degrees). Let's work with some numbers to make this a little easier to understand. Let's say that your opponent kicks at you with a force of 100 (we'll stay unitless for simplicity). This means that you will only encounter the amount of force directed 45 degrees off of his line of attack or 100 cosine (45), which equals about 70. So that means that your 100 will meet his 70 at the point of impact making an impact of 170. If 200 was the maximum amount you could collide with or 100% of the possible collision then 170 is equal to 85% of the maximum possible force achieved from the collision.

This means that even if you were to deviate to 7:30 and maintain your 7:30 to 1:30 line of attack, you would still hit with 85% of the total possible force. However, if you were to adopt a slightly different path of attack, for instance 1:00, you would increase your percentage from 85% to 93.3 %. Couple this with the fact that you've decreased your attackers ability to smack ya', and you've got a pretty sweet trade-off. A lot of safety for a little bit of power. Pretty good deal if you ask me.

This also doesn't take into account the fact that you driving a weapon through a curvilinear path of action (i.e. you will use your hips to create torque for the elbow strike), creating even more force. Or even the fact that the attacker is so over-committed with their kick that your block causes them to fall into you with the back of their head (I've seen, and had this happen to and for me).

Hopefully this makes sense. I really do love this technique, it's simple yet effective.

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo



Unless you are striking perpendicular to your opponents path of action, you will have some component of their force moving in your direction. For instance most of the replies have said to step to 7:30 because it will take you off the line of attack (at least for a front kick).

Quick mechanics lesson: Use the standard clock as a reference. You are standing in the center of the clock. Your attacker throws a kick that will travel from the 12:00 mark to the 6:00 mark. For arguments sake, you step to 7:30. By doing so you've changed your angle by 45 degrees (every 30 minutes=15 degrees). Let's work with some numbers to make this a little easier to understand. Let's say that your opponent kicks at you with a force of 100 (we'll stay unitless for simplicity). This means that you will only encounter the amount of force directed 45 degrees off of his line of attack or 100 cosine (45), which equals about 70. So that means that your 100 will meet his 70 at the point of impact making an impact of 170. If 200 was the maximum amount you could collide with or 100% of the possible collision then 170 is equal to 85% of the maximum possible force achieved from the collision.

This means that even if you were to deviate to 7:30 and maintain your 7:30 to 1:30 line of attack, you would still hit with 85% of the total possible force. However, if you were to adopt a slightly different path of attack, for instance 1:00, you would increase your percentage from 85% to 93.3 %. Couple this with the fact that you've decreased your attackers ability to smack ya', and you've got a pretty sweet trade-off. A lot of safety for a little bit of power. Pretty good deal if you ask me.

This also doesn't take into account the fact that you driving a weapon through a curvilinear path of action (i.e. you will use your hips to create torque for the elbow strike), creating even more force. Or even the fact that the attacker is so over-committed with their kick that your block causes them to fall into you with the back of their head (I've seen, and had this happen to and for me).

Hopefully this makes sense. I really do love this technique, it's simple yet effective.

The curvilinear path of action used by the elbow is very important to note here because of the angle of entry it utilizes at it's point of impact. In other words... If I were throwing a linear punch after deflecting the kick I would want to be comming from 6:00, but since I am using a curvilinear path of action with the elbow... the force of the elbow strike is maximized from 7:30. Thanks for the discussion.

[eternalwhitebelt]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear



The curvilinear path of action used by the elbow is very important to note here because of the angle of entry it utilizes at it's point of impact. In other words... If I were throwing a linear punch after deflecting the kick I would want to be comming from 6:00, but since I am using a curvilinear path of action with the elbow... the force of the elbow strike is maximized from 7:30. Thanks for the discussion.

The path of action may be different but at the point of contact they are in the same place. I believe the main reason for stepping to 6:00 is for economy of motion in using the elbow strike. Stepping to six allows you to parry the kick while your arm goes back on the 6 line. It then cuts the circle in half and turns into an elbow strike. This also allows fr more travel distance and greater power in your strike. If you step to 7:30 and do a downward block the orbit of your block is not conducive to one continuos motion turning it into an elbow strike. Th motion becomes choppy while you adjust the orbit and it is not physically possibe to make this motion continuos. There isalso less travel distance, hence less power. The body does not work this way. Having said all that I really don't think it matters. I have seen people do this tech. both ways. I think stepping to 6 is more efficient but I still think stepping to 7:30 will get the job done. I mean it is an elbow strike after all and they are hard to recover from if they are landed.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt



The path of action may be different but at the point of contact they are in the same place. I believe the main reason for stepping to 6:00 is for economy of motion in using the elbow strike. Stepping to six allows you to parry the kick while your arm goes back on the 6 line. It then cuts the circle in half and turns into an elbow strike. This also allows fr more travel distance and greater power in your strike. If you step to 7:30 and do a downward block the orbit of your block is not conducive to one continuos motion turning it into an elbow strike. Th motion becomes choppy while you adjust the orbit and it is not physically possibe to make this motion continuos. There isalso less travel distance, hence less power. The body does not work this way. Having said all that I really don't think it matters. I have seen people do this tech. both ways. I think stepping to 6 is more efficient but I still think stepping to 7:30 will get the job done. I mean it is an elbow strike after all and they are hard to recover from if they are landed.

Where does travel time come into the picture of power? Power is generated by speed and mass, mass being the primary, speed enhancing it. My thoughts are to move the mass and not create new points of origin if unnecessary, or to throw it in a wider orbit and have something else hit you in the course of your action. Would you please explain the hypothesis of travel time?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Doc]

Well if I may, I'd like to add to the discussion. I present the information only to continue to promote the discussion, and not to determine the correctness of anyone's interpretations other than my own. Please consider these perspectives as I understand them.

For various reasons instructors have modified this technique and added unnecessary and thematically incorrect footwork, (Web of Knowledge). This technique is designed to make you consider various, but very specific ideas, and "stepping off line" is not one of them. The idea is for the technique to teach you to deal with a straight kick when you can only step backwards. Consider perhaps an environmental restriction such as a wall or table etc.

Stepping off line will take away the "Borrowed Force" componant of this lesson plan technique idea. Your opponent is supposed to "fall into" your elbow strike as he plants excessively forward from his kicking assault as you exploit the "defelction." There are other techniques that specifically ask you to consider "stepping off line for a straight kick at the next belt level. Traditionally techniques that use sophisticated avoidance footwork are explored further down the line. Stepping backwards is a more natural response for a beginner. (Remember a person is going from no training to this technique)

The technique is named "Deflecting HAMMER" because it wants you to learn to utilize what is called a "complimentary downward block," not a parry. A Parry "rides and redirects." A "defelection is predicated on the Angle of Intersection which may vary from an Angle of Incidence (right angle) up to the angle where it no longer deflects and becomes a parry. Parry is a subcategory of a block. Blocks "check or hinder" by definition. Further, the hand is "closed" in a "hammer" position to protect the fingers at that level, thus the name of the technique, "Deflecting Hammer."

In my teaching we also consider the "Double Check Factor" as soon as a student is capable of assimilation of the technique specific information, utilizing both hands in the execution. Executed properly this technique is quite effective, but care and time must be factored into a students learning to effectively execute it.

Changing, or failing to consider any of the above factors does not make the technique NOT Deflecting Hammer, but it will change the lesson plan significantly and suggest alternative information while missing significate lessons to be learned from the Web of Knowledge Lesson Plan Theme of the technique.

Respectfully,

[eternalwhitebelt]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo



Where does travel time come into the picture of power? Power is generated by speed and mass, mass being the primary, speed enhancing it. My thoughts are to move the mass and not create new points of origin if unnecessary, or to throw it in a wider orbit and have something else hit you in the course of your action. Would you please explain the hypothesis of travel time?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Not time, distance. Travel distance is what I am talking about. I agree with you Clyde, it is speed and mass. But more speed is generated the further away you are, up to a point of course. Can you hit something harder with your hand on the target, or the hand a few feet away with a wind up? In this particulr case the wind up is the motion of the parry. This is where the economy of motion comes in, the parry becomes the strike while using the back up mass from springing forward and the borrowed force of your opponent falling into it. I am not creating new points of origin that was my point, staying in an efficient orbit and using te motion of the parry to become the strike. This also aids in accuracy, which is actually more important than speed and power.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt



Not time, distance. Travel distance is what I am talking about. I agree with you Clyde, it is speed and mass. But more speed is generated the further away you are, up to a point of course. Can you hit something harder with your hand on the target, or the hand a few feet away with a wind up? In this particulr case the wind up is the motion of the parry. This is where the economy of motion comes in, the parry becomes the strike while using the back up mass from springing forward and the borrowed force of your opponent falling into it. I am not creating new points of origin that was my point, staying in an efficient orbit and using te motion of the parry to become the strike. This also aids in accuracy, which is actually more important than speed and power.

I've found that the only time distance is needed is for whipping/snapping, other than that, it's not necessary. I've relied on body fusion with my strikes and keep my motion tight to utilize the mass more effectively combined with Point of Origin. The closer to my opponent I am the better, it nulls the zones of height, width, and depth when done correctly, or in essence, vertical grappling with the ability to drop weight into a strike, and to use your stances, body and weapon torque to maximize your efficiency. I don't like being in zones that I would have to wind up to get a good strike in because it allows your opponent the same oppurtunities.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[eternalwhitebelt]

I agree with what you have to say. That is why I said to be efficient the parry is your wind up. It was just a term. In actuality you do not wind up your parry becomes your strike so in fact your opponent does not have time to react. I think we are saying the same thing in a different way. One thing I will say though is that some kenpo people take the efficiency thing too far, (not you in particular clyde) and tend to forget that to hurt someone you have to hit them really hard. I am aware of the term big circles cause big problems but I see a lot of people who worry too much about speed and constipate their motion and do not have any real penetrating power.

[Klondike93]

Stepping off line will take away the "Borrowed Force" componant of this lesson plan technique idea. Your opponent is supposed to "fall into" your elbow strike as he plants excessively forward from his kicking assault as you exploit the "defelction."

Thanks Doc, for putting into words what I could not. This almost exactly how my instructor explained it to me why you step to 6 and 7:30 as I was doing.


:asian:

[kenpo3631]

with ALL bias....

I have seen my instructor, Huk, Mr. Trejo, Mr. T. Kelly, Sean Kelley and numerous others all step back to 6 o'clock. I feel that emulating there movements (after asking why of course) can't be wrong.:asian:

[eternalwhitebelt]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

with ALL bias....

I have seen my instructor, Huk, Mr. Trejo, Mr. T. Kelly, Sean Kelley and numerous others all step back to 6 o'clock. I feel that emulating there movements (after asking why of course) can't be wrong.:asian:

I second that.

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

with ALL bias....

I have seen my instructor, Huk, Mr. Trejo, Mr. T. Kelly, Sean Kelley and numerous others all step back to 6 o'clock. I feel that emulating there movements (after asking why of course) can't be wrong.:asian:

Who said that they were wrong?

I can offer you this though... Each of the gentlemen you mentioned have different ways of doing other techniques. How do you solve that problem? Elect an instructor of the month and do it that way? (joking)

I guess I must agree to disagree... Although I think that the discussion was a good one. It made me think and ask several people questions about how and why?

Take Care,
Billy Lear :asian:

[Doc]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear



Who said that they were wrong?

I can offer you this though... Each of the gentlemen you mentioned have different ways of doing other techniques. How do you solve that problem? Elect an instructor of the month and do it that way? (joking)

I guess I must agree to disagree... Although I think that the discussion was a good one. It made me think and ask several people questions about how and why?

Take Care,
Billy Lear :asian:
I agree with Mr. Lear. Nobody is wrong for their interpretations. That is why the lesson plan is designed the way it is. However there are guides throughout to issure instructors give the students an overall perspective. You may violate the Web of Knowledge if, as a teacher, you choose to, to suit your your needs. But remember it was designed to FORCE you to consider certain assaults to make your teaching more complete and the greatest benefit to your students.

[MMAkid1]

In my Class we are taught that technique. It was originially described perfectly, however in our class, after the downward block (stepping back of course), we pivot back into a forward bow and execute a snap kick to the groin, and as we land with the foot, we use gravity to increase the power of the elbow, which goes at a downward angle to the temple. Just thought I'd give you our variation in Chinese Kenpo.

[Ray]

In my Class we are taught that technique. It was originially described perfectly, however in our class, after the downward block (stepping back of course), we pivot back into a forward bow and execute a snap kick to the groin, and as we land with the foot, we use gravity to increase the power of the elbow, which goes at a downward angle to the temple. Just thought I'd give you our variation in Chinese Kenpo.If you're talking about "Deflecting Thunder" from IKCA cirriculum then the EPAK technique that would correspond is "Thrusting Salute." The difference between "Deflecting Thunder" and "Thrusting Salute" is basically this: Deflecting Thunder ends with the right inward elbow; Thrusting salute ends with a right heel palm.

I don't know what the corresponding tech would be in IKCA but i can tell you this if it helps: Step back to 7:30 with your left and block outside the right leg with a right outward downward block to start it off.

[MMAkid1]

We have thrusting Salute as well. It is a yellow belt technique.

[Ray]

We have thrusting Salute as well. It is a yellow belt technique.Thanks for the info, I am unaware as to most of the IKCA cirriculum. When you said that you practiced the technique (which I thought was the subject {Deflecting Hammer}) I knew that IKCA had the Orange belt "inside a right kick" that corresponded to Thrusting Salute with an elbow instead of the heel palm.

So that makes me curious: Do you mean you practice your "Deflecting Hammer" with a kick to the groin? I have sometime practiced it with a knife edged kick to the back of the right knee since when I do it, the attacker's front isn't presented (he's either got his back to me or his side to me, depending on the angle I block the kick, etc). I suppose I could do a lift kick or a scoop kick to the groin (again, depending on the angle) coming from his backside. Thanks in advance for the info....

[MMAkid1]

When we make the block, it should spread his legs and keep him facing us, revealing the groin for a nice snap kick. ALso, we practice thrusting salute in the exact same manner, except of course with the palm instead of the elbow.

[Touch Of Death]

When we make the block, it should spread his legs and keep him facing us, revealing the groin for a nice snap kick. ALso, we practice thrusting salute in the exact same manner, except of course with the palm instead of the elbow.Kicking automaticly is probably a mistake, just as in thrusting salute, but I like the option. It sort of fits a snaking talon idea I've been pondering these days. IE what if the first part never happened. LOL
Sean

[MMAkid1]

"Kicking automaticly is probably a mistake"
I don't understand. What do you mean by that?

[Kenpojujitsu3]

"Kicking automaticly is probably a mistake"
I don't understand. What do you mean by that?

Meaning blocking and kicking without taking a split second to assess the situation and seeing if the coast is clear for that kick.

[Touch Of Death]

"Kicking automaticly is probably a mistake"
I don't understand. What do you mean by that?Logic dictates...