Sword Of Destruction

[Rob_Broad]

(front - left straight or roundhouse punch)

1)Standing naturally, step back with your left foot toward 6:00 into a right neautral bow stance (facing 12:00), as you simultaneously execute a right outward extended block to the inner forearm of your opponent's left punch. Your left hand should be in a positional check at your right shoulder.

2)Immediatly slide your right foot forward into a 45 degree cat stance to create forward body momentum.

3)Without hesitation deliver a right front snap ball kick to your opponent's groin. (Your kick shoul dcause your opponent to bend forward at the waist.)

4)While planting your right foot forward, inside of your opponent's left leg, and into a right neutral bow (facing 12:00), employ marriage of gravity as you execute a right inward handsword strike to the left side of your opponent's neck. (This action should cause your opponent to fall to the ground.)

5)Immediatly snap your right hand back to the left shoulder of your opponent to act as a check.

[Kempojujutsu]

I would think if someone was throwing a punch and if they were trying to land it on you they would be real close. I can see the outward block be I can't see landing a front kick on them. Maybe a rising knee strike.
Bob :asian:

[kenmpoka]

The gap (room) for the kick is provided by the transitional cat right before the kick. You actually need that kick to disturb his center line.

:asian:

[headkick]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I would think if someone was throwing a punch and if they were trying to land it on you they would be real close. I can see the outward block be I can't see landing a front kick on them. Maybe a rising knee strike.
Bob :asian:

What's the first movement of a front snap kick? The knee is perfectly acceptable. But, this is a roundhouse punch, not a hook punch. Difference being where the punch is intended to hit relative to the apex of the circle it's travelling on.

But, it's a range issue. Make adjustments as YOU need them. Gaging steps. Paul Dye does great seminars on that one topic. I finish this technique with a push drag with the handsword. I combine this with a heel palm to the sternum or ribs. Then sweep on the cover out if it's there.

R

[Doc]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
(front - left straight or roundhouse punch)

1)Standing naturally, step back with your left foot toward 6:00 into a right neautral bow stance (facing 12:00), as you simultaneously execute a right outward extended block to the inner forearm of your opponent's left punch. Your left hand should be in a positional check at your right shoulder.

Ok except for the "positional check."


2)Immediatly slide your right foot forward into a 45 degree cat stance to create forward body momentum.

3)Without hesitation deliver a right front snap ball kick to your opponent's groin. (Your kick shoul dcause your opponent to bend forward at the waist.)

The kick won't make you bend forward at the waist.


4)While planting your right foot forward, inside of your opponent's left leg, and into a right neutral bow (facing 12:00), employ marriage of gravity as you execute a right inward handsword strike to the left side of your opponent's neck. (This action should cause your opponent to fall to the ground.)
5)Immediatly snap your right hand back to the left shoulder of your opponent to act as a check.
Snap the hand back? Why?

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Since economy of motion is always on everyone's list of principles that shouldn't be violated, explain to me why you would step back and close your center line only to open it back up for the kick and then close it again as you plant for the chop to the neck?

Also what tools do you have in place to deal with the attack if it's a straight punch instead of the prescribed round house? If you are still in a natural stance when your opponent attacks, especially with something as direct and quick as a straight punch, your SCREWED :revenge:

Even if you are quick enough to step back, the way that most people block leaves them vulnerable to the initial attack (i.e. not able to stop it), or due to their mechanics and body positioning, leaves them open for the left right combo.

I see this in students across the kenpo spectrum ( I'm not saying that everybody does this, but I've seen it enough to warrant concern). I use to do the same thing, until I was taught a more effective manner of execution.

Before you guys go jumping all over me check something out for yourselves. Do Sword of Destruction a couple of times slow and then a couple of times fast. After the outward block if your hand pulls back towards your shoulder, even just a little, to facilitate the kick then you are doing something wrong. You are violating economy of motion.

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Since economy of motion is always on everyone's list of principles that shouldn't be violated, explain to me why you would step back and close your center line only to open it back up for the kick and then close it again as you plant for the chop to the neck?

Also what tools do you have in place to deal with the attack if it's a straight punch instead of the prescribed round house? If you are still in a natural stance when your opponent attacks, especially with something as direct and quick as a straight punch, your SCREWED :revenge:

Even if you are quick enough to step back, the way that most people block leaves them vulnerable to the initial attack (i.e. not able to stop it), or due to their mechanics and body positioning, leaves them open for the left right combo.

I see this in students across the kenpo spectrum ( I'm not saying that everybody does this, but I've seen it enough to warrant concern). I use to do the same thing, until I was taught a more effective manner of execution.

Before you guys go jumping all over me check something out for yourselves. Do Sword of Destruction a couple of times slow and then a couple of times fast. After the outward block if your hand pulls back towards your shoulder, even just a little, to facilitate the kick then you are doing something wrong. You are violating economy of motion.
Well EOM is not at the top of everyone's list and certainly not mine. Although from my perspective there is merit to much of the things you have taken issue with, the crux for your comments seems to be about violating a "motion" concept, ie. "Economy Of Motion."

The question is, which is more important, economizing the motion, or being effective? Understand that no matter how liberal you apply and think of this concept, "economy of motion" cannot be the best way to execute in all circumstances. Or can it? If not, by what concept or principle should you be guided?

[Rob_Broad]

We also have to remember at what level this technique is taught. Yes it contains principles and concepts of motion, but more importantly it should be helping the student master their basics and become compfortable with others throwing punches at them. The yellow belt was meant to be a taster for kenpo for the uninitiated, not disected to the point where every beginner reading up on techniques in the various forum feel like they have missed the point.

I think we should often look at the techniques in the eyes of thelevel learning them, to see what they have to offer, not with Black belt eyes and hindsight.

[Doc]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
We also have to remember at what level this technique is taught. Yes it contains principles and concepts of motion, but more importantly it should be helping the student master their basics and become compfortable with others throwing punches at them. The yellow belt was meant to be a taster for kenpo for the uninitiated, not disected to the point where every beginner reading up on techniques in the various forum feel like they have missed the point.

I think we should often look at the techniques in the eyes of thelevel learning them, to see what they have to offer, not with Black belt eyes and hindsight.
Absolutely agree. Which is why you "step back" and create distance from your opponent. But it is also important you know the "yellow" techniques were created years after the others, and originally for children. One other point; motion is a concept not a principle.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

The question is, which is more important, economizing the motion, or being effective?


That's easy............ The answer is Economy of motion..
No, I'm just kidding. Of course effectiveness is more important, but it's been my experience (admittedly limited compared to some) that a number of problems can be answered simply by correcting an individuals movements. This is not to say that EOM is the end all, be all of kenpo, but it is an important aspect.



I think we should often look at the techniques in the eyes of the level learning them


I agree. So why do we teach a beginner to fluctuate the opening in their centerline? Why do we trouble them with learning how to manuever correctly from an attention position, to a RNB, to a cat stance, to a front snap kick, that is followed by MOG based chop that requires a student to effectively corkscrew back into a RNB to make use of the MOG, knowing full well that if they take to long they will likely eat another attack? Also, How would you deal with a left punch coming right down the pipe? It's hard to distinguish the two (roundhouse, straight) in real time. Why not address these issues before we teach them supplemental strikes that they may or may not ever get to use?

How about teaching environmental awareness so they aren't caught standing with their feet together knees locked? If this is your position when you get attacked your gonna get clocked 90% of the time (that's actually probably a bit generous I'm thinking 99%). I think that we would all agree that there is more to a system than a series of techniques and forms. There should also be the development of a combat mindeset and a "mean streak" starting from the day they walk through the door.

Back to SOD, 1) Why not teach them to slide their left foot back to a modified forward bow when they execute a right outward block. 2) Then execute an inward hammerfist or chop as their body rotates counterclockwise into a RNB.

The tools to deal with a straight punch or double punch are included in the specifics of the body mechanics and duel hand motion. A simple yet effective way to handle a punch. Granted you lose the kick, but later on as a student understands how to manipulate their stances better this can be reincorporated as an insert (Good ole equation formula).

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
[B] This is not to say that EOM is the end all, be all of kenpo, but it is an important aspect.

Not as important as some think, but it does form the basis for teaching when the majority of the structure is conceptual.

From this perspective understanding motion is a good first step, however once you transcend the superficial it becomes less and less important and is supplanted by structure principles over abstract motion.


So why do we teach a beginner to fluctuate the opening in their centerline?


We teach a beginner to utilize "distance as their best friend" and step away and avoid the first strike, and turn their centerline away from the attacker. This also creates significant distance to place them out of reach for a secondary crossing punch without the attacker having to take another step forward.

Once they "Survive The Initial Assault" they can then utilize the step forward into the cat stance to bring significant body momentum to the front kick.

If the kick is executed properly it will set up the distance and torque for the right handsword coming from the hips as you pivot with substantial energy to bring finality to the circumstances.


knowing full well that if they take to long they will likely eat another attack?

"Distance is your best friend."


Also, How would you deal with a left punch coming right down the pipe? It's hard to distinguish the two (roundhouse, straight) in real time.

If blocking is taught correctly, it will address that issue. Your blocking should be such that it doesn't matter (in this technique) whether it's straight or round. Utilizing distance properly will negate the effects of the variable and allow them to move sooner while moving away from a possible second hand.


Why not address these issues before we teach them supplemental strikes that they may or may not ever get to use?

Agreed! That should be addressed and much more.


How about teaching environmental awareness so they aren't caught standing with their feet together knees locked? If this is your position when you get attacked your gonna get clocked 90% of the time (that's actually probably a bit generous I'm thinking 99%).

Well now I think you're not being realistic. A person can't always have their legs apart ready for a confrontation. The real world doesn't work that way no matter how "aware" you are.


I think that we would all agree that there is more to a system than a series of techniques and forms. There should also be the development of a combat mindeset and a "mean streak" starting from the day they walk through the door.

On this we can mostly agree. The "mean streak" I don't think is necessary and generates "bullies." You don't have to have a mean streak, only be willing to do what's necessary in a confrontation to come out on top. That's not being mean, only willing and able.


Back to SOD, 1) Why not teach them to slide their left foot back to a modified forward bow when they execute a right outward block.

Because an extended outward block will anatomically only work as a check from a forward bow, and is not capable of thwarting significant energy from a substantial attack.


2) Then execute an inward hammerfist or chop as their body rotates counterclockwise into a RNB.

That's proper for what the level should be teaching. Remember it is the first level of techniques. You are attempting to impart certain principles.


The tools to deal with a straight punch or double punch are included in the specifics of the body mechanics and duel hand motion. A simple yet effective way to handle a punch. Granted you lose the kick,...

That is fine should you choose to teach your students to omit the kick. But once they learn this methodology, wouldn't puting the kick back in be digressing? Isn't it more important to follow the theme of the Web Of Knowledge and teach the student to use distance first at this stage with the kick? It appears to me you are violating your own comment, forgetting what level you are teaching and examining the material from that perspective.

[Kenpodoc]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
There should also be the development of a combat mindeset and a "mean streak" starting from the day they walk through the door.



This quote brought to mind a conversation I had Benny "The Jet" Urquidez. I pointed out that he seemed like such a nice relaxed guy and asked if he was different when he was fighting professionally. I asked if he had to develop an attitude. He replied, " No, I fought out of love. Iwouldn't have shown my opponents respect if I didn't try as hard as I could during every fight." Benny is a role model for my children and I wish we could all approach life with the enthusiasm and joy that Benny projects.

Jeff

[Kenpo Yahoo]

From this perspective understanding motion is a good first step, however once you transcend the superficial it becomes less and less important and is supplanted by structure principles over abstract motion.


I agree, but how do you get into any sort of advanced study without an understanding of basic principles and movement.



If the kick is executed properly it will set up the distance and torque for the right handsword coming from the hips as you pivot with substantial energy to bring finality to the circumstances.


That would provide necessary power, but the question is can a white belt make this work effectively with such a limited understanding of principles and stances?



Your blocking should be such that it doesn't matter (in this technique) whether it's straight or round.


"Should" is the key word.



Well now I think you're not being realistic. A person can't always have their legs apart ready for a confrontation. The real world doesn't work that way no matter how "aware" you are.


True, but how well do you think any technique is going to work starting from a straight legged, flat footed position. The goal should be able to recognize a situation before it presents itself. Very few attacks come straight out of the blue, in most cases their is some form of warning (verbal, non-verbal, etc.).



Because an extended outward block will anatomically only work as a check from a forward bow, and is not capable of thwarting significant energy from a substantial attack.


I'm about 5'9" 180lbs. and my outward block was "capable of thwarting" a punch from a guy who is a solid 250 lbs.



But once they learn this methodology, wouldn't puting the kick back in be digressing?


Only if you consider building a better base before inserting extra strikes a digression.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Doc
.

Because an extended outward block will anatomically only work as a check from a forward bow, and is not capable of thwarting significant energy from a substantial attack.

That's proper for what the level should be teaching. Remember it is the first level of techniques. You are attempting to impart certain principles.



I couldn't agree more with you here, at least if we're on the same page. A forward bow will not support the outward block from an oncoming attack of the left arm, on a diagonal or horizontal plane. The block is comprosised by a forward bow because it offers no lateral stability or inertial dampening. A neutral bow is perfectly suited to this attack, which is why SOD and Shielding Hammer are taught this way. In order to have lateral stability in the forward bow you would have to nullify the punch significantly by attacking your opponents centerline, a stop-hit basically.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Greggers69]

As this technique was explained to me, its also for a one two punch. Lets say someone throws a right punch and I go to a right inward block and to finish it with Delayed sword, Now while i have this in my mind and my oponent is fast and throws a left, so I can still finish my move and make the right outward block and it turns into sword of destruction. This is my opinion and nothing more:asian:

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Greggers69
As this technique was explained to me, its also for a one two punch. Lets say someone throws a right punch and I go to a right inward block and to finish it with Delayed sword, Now while i have this in my mind and my oponent is fast and throws a left, so I can still finish my move and make the right outward block and it turns into sword of destruction. This is my opinion and nothing more:asian:

Amazingly enough, the AK folks already have an answer to that dilemna, it's called Fatal Deviation.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Greggers69]

Yes but i havn't learned that tech yet. lol. Thanks:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

I started this thread almost a year ago and it took our normal kenpo fashion to disagree that long before anyone could even answer whether the the technique was accurate or not. I was sent an email of this technique to see where the student was picking up wrong information, and it was convoluted into who knows what kind of crap. No wonder American Kenpo is close to standing in its own grave, every body interprets everything to fit themselves. GET OVER IT!!!! A block should stop an on coming attack, and a strike should hurt the attacker strike, who cares if you polishe the next GM's shoe, skill should be measured measured on abilty not accessabilty.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I started this thread almost a year ago and it took our normal kenpo fashion to disagree that long before anyone could even answer whether the the technique was accurate or not. I was sent an email of this technique to see where the student was picking up wrong information, and it was convoluted into who knows what kind of crap. No wonder American Kenpo is close to standing in its own grave, every body interprets everything to fit themselves. GET OVER IT!!!! A block should stop an on coming attack, and a strike should hurt the attacker strike, who cares if you polishe the next GM's shoe, skill should be measured measured on abilty not accessabilty.


What the heck are you talking about?

[ob2c]

I wasn't here a year ago, so I'm going to plead innocense and try to answer the question(s), because they are good questions and they make me think about what I'm doing. So, here goes:


Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
... explain to me why you would step back and close your center line only to open it back up for the kick and then close it again as you plant for the chop to the neck? ... So why do we teach a beginner to fluctuate the opening in their centerline? Why do we trouble them with learning how to manuever correctly from an attention position, to a RNB, to a cat stance, to a front snap kick, that is followed by MOG based chop that requires a student to effectively corkscrew back into a RNB to make use of the MOG, knowing full well that if they take to long they will likely eat another attack?

A begginer needs to learn to move. He's been surprised by an attack, so he moves back to create distance and closes his center to protect it. Since the attack was at the max limmit of the medium range, and he's created distance, he now needs to employ a long range weapon- a kick. The cat is preparatory to this counter attack. The kick will probably check the attackers depth and alter his height, so now the defender takes advantage of this to move in to a medium range attack and finish the attacker off.


Also what tools do you have in place to deal with the attack if it's a straight punch instead of the prescribed round house? If you are still in a natural stance when your opponent attacks, especially with something as direct and quick as a straight punch, your SCREWED

The left hand rising to the right shoulder is not just a check, it is a minor block. If you misread the attack, the left hand picks up the punch then the right hammers his arm targeting the radial nerve (ideally).


Even if you are quick enough to step back, the way that most people block leaves them vulnerable to the initial attack (i.e. not able to stop it), or due to their mechanics and body positioning, leaves them open for the left right combo.


The way you describe it here:


After the outward block if your hand pulls back towards your shoulder, even just a little, to facilitate the kick then you are doing something wrong.

I'd agree. But the way I was taught is that you only put that left check up momentarily. It circles down to a mid check position precisely to deal with another incoming attack and set up your body mechanics for the kick. Of course, if the attack is launched quickly the hand moves directly to deal with the attack instead of to a check. Regardless, the check should not be at your right shoulder/face when the kick is initiated.

It is true that there are better ways to deal with this attack. But, taken in the context of where it is taught in the carriculum and considering what it is meant to teach, it is a good, workable, logical technique. Every motion had a purpose, and went directly from point of origin to the prescribed point to fulfill that purpose. Absolutely no wasted motion.

[KenpoDragon]

I don't understand sir,was it a question for other Kenpoists on their answer for Sword of Destruction? Or were you simply giving your answer for the question? Well I don't understand why you would move forward into the cat stance,the range of the front snap kick is perfect from the original position.I also don't understand why you would have your left hand check at your right shoulder,is that a secondary check??? Doesn't that negate the Universal block pattern,one high one low??? By shifting forward wouldn't you then open yourself up for a possible head-butt,especially when you connect with the groin shot? With your left hand checking at your right shoulder doesn't that expose your groin??? I understand that different Kenpoists have different answers for the same questions I would just like to hear yours.This was not the way I learned Sword of Destruction,but if it works for you,that's fine with me.

With honor and respect,:asian:
KenpoDragon

[ob2c]

Mr Dragon, I'm not sure if you are asking me, but I'll try to answer.


Originally posted by KenpoDragon
Well I don't understand why you would move forward into the cat stance,the range of the front snap kick is perfect from the original position.

I read that as a typo. You would move back into a Cat. Otherwise, you'd have to weight the front foot, shift the rear up weight the rear foot, then kick. Not very efficient. No one else commented on it, so I figured everyone else read it the same.

This may change or even answer some of your other questions, but I'll answer them any how.


I also don't understand why you would have your left hand check at your right shoulder,is that a secondary check??? Doesn't that negate the Universal block pattern,one high one low???

The check is above the shoulder, protecting the face. A roundhouse can be converted to a hook and still get by the block. Or, as was pointed out, you could misread the attack and throw this up for a straight punch. In this case, the check, which gets up first, would be a minor block. If there is no contact, the left hand drops immediately to check at the lower sternum, or to recieve a second incoming strike. One high, one low, as you said. It doesn't immediately go to the mid check because your step back and the dynamics of his attack momentarily nullify the second (right) hand.


By shifting forward wouldn't you then open yourself up for a possible head-butt,especially when you connect with the groin shot?

Your relative position as you plant forward into the neutral bow, the hand sword to the side of his neck, and the checking hand take care of this contingency. He starts to react as you start to plant, just don't walk straight into his path.


With your left hand checking at your right shoulder doesn't that expose your groin???

Your block momentarily checks his width. He'll probably have to recover that before kicking, so your kick should get off first. Even if he kicks first, your cat can easily and quickly be converted from a kick to a leg check. And you should be flowing into that cat as soon as the block lands.

That's how I was taught this technique. Were you taught different? If so, how?

Respectfully, :asian:

[Doc]

Originally posted by ob2c
[B]Mr Dragon, I'm not sure if you are asking me, but I'll try to answer. I read that as a typo. You would move back into a Cat. Otherwise, you'd have to weight the front foot, shift the rear up weight the rear foot, then kick. Not very efficient. No one else commented on it, so I figured everyone else read it the same.

Sorry, but you ALWAYS move forward into a cat whenever possible. Moving BACK into a cat is inefficient and violates body mechanics and alignment.

[ob2c]

Doc, please enlighten me then. When I cat as the first move in a front kick off the lead leg, I shift weight to the rear leg (a slight backward movement), flow through the cat and snap the kick. Why would you move forward? And how would that be more efficient? I'm also having a little trouble seeing how it violates body mechanics and allignment. Seriously interested here. If I'm doing something wrong in this simple foot maneuver, I'll get it corrected. But I can't see moving forward into the cat for the front snap kick. What am I missing?

[KenpoDragon]

Originally posted by ob2c
Mr Dragon, I'm not sure if you are asking me, but I'll try to answer.
I appreciate your response,but I guess I should have been more clear in my reply,it was intended for the original poster.I was simply asking what his base was for these movements.



I read that as a typo. You would move back into a Cat. Otherwise, you'd have to weight the front foot, shift the rear up weight the rear foot, then kick. Not very efficient. No one else commented on it, so I figured everyone else read it the same.

This may change or even answer some of your other questions, but I'll answer them any how.



The check is above the shoulder, protecting the face. A roundhouse can be converted to a hook and still get by the block. Or, as was pointed out, you could misread the attack and throw this up for a straight punch. In this case, the check, which gets up first, would be a minor block. If there is no contact, the left hand drops immediately to check at the lower sternum, or to recieve a second incoming strike. One high, one low, as you said. It doesn't immediately go to the mid check because your step back and the dynamics of his attack momentarily nullify the second (right) hand.
I learned the left inward parry as well,but as a momentary precaution.Not necessarily the primary block,just as insurance.It sounded as if in the original post,he left the left hand check up towards the shoulder,hence my question why.



Your relative position as you plant forward into the neutral bow, the hand sword to the side of his neck, and the checking hand take care of this contingency. He starts to react as you start to plant, just don't walk straight into his path.



Your block momentarily checks his width. He'll probably have to recover that before kicking, so your kick should get off first. Even if he kicks first, your cat can easily and quickly be converted from a kick to a leg check. And you should be flowing into that cat as soon as the block lands.

That's how I was taught this technique. Were you taught different? If so, how? I was taught the same way sir,my question was as to why someone would do it differently.

Respectfully, :asian: As I said thank you for your response,but I was truly looking for the original posters response as to why he would modify something as basic as Sword of Destruction.:asian:

[Doc]

Originally posted by ob2c
Doc, please enlighten me then. When I cat as the first move in a front kick off the lead leg, I shift weight to the rear leg (a slight backward movement), flow through the cat and snap the kick. Why would you move forward? And how would that be more efficient? I'm also having a little trouble seeing how it violates body mechanics and allignment. Seriously interested here. If I'm doing something wrong in this simple foot maneuver, I'll get it corrected. But I can't see moving forward into the cat for the front snap kick. What am I missing?

Whenever you step backwards into ANY stance you misalign your hips, and created a Disassociated consition between your upper and lower body, and destroy anatomical stability. With a stance where the weight distribution is to the rear, the effect is even more acute and critical.

Experiment:

Begin with feet even in depth, then step back into a neutral bow. then have someone apply steady pressure on your upper body toward 6 o'clock. Ultimately your upper body will yield to the pressure and lean rearward. When it has been pushed far enough it will pull your front foot off the floor and you will be forced to move to retain your balance. If you were under assault from someone who supplied constant forward pressure through punching or grappling, you would not be able to recover from this "diassociated" condition.

Next do the opposite. Step Forward into a neutral bow and recreate the same pressure toward 6 o'clock. If your stance is close to correct, you should be able to resist the pressure and your stance should be stable and your upper body will not yield anymore than your lower. They will work as a unit.

Anytime you step back into ANY stance you must apply a corrective anatomical mechanism to adjust the anatomical alignment of your body. That mechanism is only taught in SubLevel Four Kenpo. My students learn it from the beginning and have no problems with it. Unfortunately it is a physical mechanism that cannot be conveyed in its proper perspective with words only.

[ob2c]

Well Doc, it's 3:00AM, so I don't have anyone to push me. But I've been experimentin', and I think I can see at least part of what you are getting at. You are focusing on more the internal aspect in the allignment of the joints in the hip. When I step back into a neutral bow I can feel a slight floating sensation on the ball joints at the hips. Steping forward these joints seem to be more settled in, more stable. The adjustment involves a tucking of the coccyx and a slight forward rotation of the pelvic girdle when steping back. Close? This makes sense, and I'll continue to work on it.

But that steping forward into a cat- unless you are doing a drag step to get closer, which is not the case in this technique, I just don't see it. And the original post said that he steped forward with his right foot into a cat from a right neutral bow. This commits too much weight to the right foot, grounding it and preventing the kick until you've shifted weight back to the left (trailing) foot. I really doubt you are supporting that statement, unless I'm missing something. So, are you refering here to that internal adjustment also? If you do step forward, how do you cat and get off a kick without transfering weight to the trailing foot- a backward motion?

I did try the front snap kick just rocking back, and it is unstable due to the misalignment you mentioned. But I was taught to drop a little and get my hips under the kick. This takes care of the misalignment and makes the cat and kick stable, I think.

I'm heading out to Idaho, but I'll be looking forward to your reply. Thanks for the information so far.

Respectfully, :asian:

[Doc]

Originally posted by ob2c
[B]Well Doc, it's 3:00AM, so I don't have anyone to push me. But I've been experimentin', and I think I can see at least part of what you are getting at. You are focusing on more the internal aspect in the allignment of the joints in the hip. When I step back into a neutral bow I can feel a slight floating sensation on the ball joints at the hips. Steping forward these joints seem to be more settled in, more stable.

That's anatomically correct.



The adjustment involves a tucking of the coccyx and a slight forward rotation of the pelvic girdle when steping back. Close?


No. When you move forward it is natural and requires no conscious effort.



But that steping forward into a cat- unless you are doing a drag step to get closer, which is not the case in this technique,


To move forward into a cat it is a drag-step. What is the definition of a kick? "An exagerrated step." So when you drag step, simply exaggerate the step and you will transition through a cat and your kick will be explosive, and more importantly anatomically aligned making it more powerful with less effort.



I did try the front snap kick just rocking back, and it is unstable due to the misalignment you mentioned.


Yes, it's hard to miss even though instructors teach it incorrectly. Any reasonable pressure from the front will knock you on your keister.



But I was taught to drop a little and get my hips under the kick. This takes care of the misalignment and makes the cat and kick stable, I think.


No it doesn't. Remember what I said. "You move back, no alignment. It is impossible without a correcting mechanism. Instructors have been teaching the "hips under and forward" with the front kick forever, and it is anatomically wrong. When you push the hips forward and under, you misalign yourself further, and loose what back up mass you had by pushing your shoulders rearward of the "lateral central balance point" causing yourself to be thrust rearward when any significant contact is made.


I'm heading out to Idaho, but I'll be looking forward to your reply. Thanks for the information so far.


Have fun with all the masters. You can do your experiment there, but don't tell them where it came from they might put you out.

[ob2c]

Doc, Mr. Hirst and Mr. Sepulvada said to say hello.
I'll have to get back later on the kick as it is midnight and I just got back in. Been a long day- later...

[ob2c]

I've had some time now to play a little with this and to think on it. I didn't ask anyone about it, so these are my own thoughts (red flags?:D ).

I think I can feel the structural disconnect you refer to when steping back into a stance, Dr. Chapel. But I can't conclude that you'd always want to step forward into a stance even if it is structurally more solid. You need to consider isues of speed, distance and positioning as well as stability. In Sword of Destruction, you need to move back for the proper distance - forward is a little close unless you deliver a shin kick and change the follow up strike (not necessarily a bad thing, but not the technique). Also, it is extremely important to snap that kick fast. He can still move in depth, and has offensive and defensive options. Adding a step forward can't be as fast as simply moving through a cat and kicking, even though the time is only a fraction of a second more.

I guess I'd compare this to using a forward bow. When power and stability are important, you lock it out. When speed and mobility are important, you use a transitional (unrooted) forward bow.

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on my thinking. But I also have a question. If I step forward into a neutral bow from a natural stance, then step through reverse, I don't feel that disconnect every time, though sometimes I do. I'm not sure, but I may be compensating some with muscles. But it doesn't feel like that is the only reason. It feels like a mechanically strong stance, unlike the disconnect when steping back into the stance initially. Is this correct? If so, why?

This is something I can honestly say I've never considered before. It's an intrigueing issue, and a good thing to be aware of, regardless how you step.

[Doc]

Originally posted by ob2c
I've had some time now to play a little with this and to think on it. I didn't ask anyone about it, so these are my own thoughts (red flags?:D ).

I think I can feel the structural disconnect you refer to when steping back into a stance, Dr. Chapel. But I can't conclude that you'd always want to step forward into a stance even if it is structurally more solid. You need to consider isues of speed, distance and positioning as well as stability. In Sword of Destruction, you need to move back for the proper distance - forward is a little close unless you deliver a shin kick and change the follow up strike (not necessarily a bad thing, but not the technique). Also, it is extremely important to snap that kick fast. He can still move in depth, and has offensive and defensive options. Adding a step forward can't be as fast as simply moving through a cat and kicking, even though the time is only a fraction of a second more.

I guess I'd compare this to using a forward bow. When power and stability are important, you lock it out. When speed and mobility are important, you use a transitional (unrooted) forward bow.

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on my thinking. But I also have a question. If I step forward into a neutral bow from a natural stance, then step through reverse, I don't feel that disconnect every time, though sometimes I do. I'm not sure, but I may be compensating some with muscles. But it doesn't feel like that is the only reason. It feels like a mechanically strong stance, unlike the disconnect when steping back into the stance initially. Is this correct? If so, why?

This is something I can honestly say I've never considered before. It's an intrigueing issue, and a good thing to be aware of, regardless how you step.
Have you done your homework? Did you do the PHYSICAL experiment with a partner? If so, what were your findings? What is your conclusion(s).

[ob2c]

No, sir. My new partner did not show up for training last night, so I havn't done this with a partner yet, other than my wife. I don't count that because I can easily resist her even steping back. My observations are just from walking through this several times with different shoes/boots on and trying to get a feel for the stance.

[Doc]

Originally posted by ob2c
No, sir. My new partner did not show up for training last night, so I havn't done this with a partner yet, other than my wife. I don't count that because I can easily resist her even steping back. My observations are just from walking through this several times with different shoes/boots on and trying to get a feel for the stance.
We can continue the discussion after you've completed the experiment. In this way we form a central basis and expereince model for discussion. However the size of the person should be of no consequence as lng as they push at shoulder level rearword and you maintain what you feel is the "integrity" of the stance posture specifications.

[Michael Billings]

Oss Gentlemen,

I have tried it both ways and have always preferred stepping in (and attacking their weapon), but in a "GoFast" situation ... i.e. the person standing shoulder to shoulder with you in a bar hooks at your head with the full mug of beer he has (yes, I saw it done) an in-place settling stablizes your base instantly. Your lead leg does move forward, but not necessarily the axis of your body. Although I do try to engage my mass so it moves at least fractionally forward as I execute the blocking strike.

This may be another scenario to try with a partner. It is very different when you have someone with mass vectoring in and pressing you. You know instantly if you have stablized your base, anchored your elbows and have appropriate bracing angles. The modified forward bow (soft bow or modified close kneel) did not stand up for me against the pressure. I think we tend to do this to open the hips early for the kick, but if the kick is an exaggerated step, the way Dr. Chape'l describes it, (and it is), then the striking block is very effective, and you don't have to worry whether it works or not. Fun to play with at the least.

Oss,
-Michael

[longform6]

I the point everytone is trying to make...Do what works for you. Look at all the top Kenpo stylists; all different size and shapes. We were taught an alphabet-make your own words and sentences to fit you needs. If it works, do it. Just make sure you can back up the application with a explanation that makes sense.

We all have something to learn from others! :D

[Doc]

I guess he decided to not further the discussion.:confused:

[longform6]

Don't be haten'...Love the signature.

[rmcrobertson]

Just to ask the obvious dumb question, what's their right hand doin' while you step forward? and where's your left?

A less dumb question, based on teaching: shouldn't beginners learn to always step back? Not just because it's safer in "reality," (and I still think that may be the most-overused and least-understood word in kenpo), but because this dovetails with the base curriculum for yellow belt? and Short 1?

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Perhaps someone would describe the foot manuevers required to step forward.

Are you suggesting that the defender
- step forward then slide the right leg back to a cat to kick?
- step forward then slide the left leg up to a cat to kick?
- ignore the kick all together?
- do something other than what is mentioned above?

[Titan Uk]

The techniques is a fairly easy one to learn with lots of principles, for people to learn.
Once learnt it can be playabout with to suit individuals who find that some bits don't work for them and so they adapt them. But the original technique is still there in it's true form.
It is but a tool in your tool box which can be use together with other ones.
It is unlikely that anyone technique will work completely on everyone or that you would be able to complete the technique

[Brother John]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
The gap (room) for the kick is provided by the transitional cat right before the kick. You actually need that kick to disturb his center line.

:asian:
Actually I can disturb his centerline with the block, along the width dimension.
Then the kick helps disrupt the potential right hand punch.

Your Brother
John

[WhiteTiger]

Remember the formal techniques are for reference, a training tool. If you need to step forward in order to close the distance to make the technique work then do so. Try practicing this technique for a punch from the Rt side or the Lt Side, either closing or increasing distance.

As for the block to a straight punch; a block is not disigned to be a counter to any one attack, but to cover a certain part of the body from whatever attack.

Actually at some point in my training I condenced this technique into a 2 count. The stance transition, the kick and the block are all simotaneous, theory being, I get my kick in faster impaling him in the groin, his punch is aimed more toward my left shoe than my head. I have actually used this in freestyle, althought my kick is targeted a little higher, and the follow-up is a ridge-hand.