Delayed Sword

[Rob_Broad]

(front - right hand lapel grab)

1)Standing naturally, step back with your left foot toward 6:00
into a right neutral bow stance facing 12:00, while simultaneously
executing a right inward block to the right inner wrist of your
opponent's right hand lapel grab. At the same time position your
left hand at solar-plexus level as a precautionary check against
further action. (Your block should expose the width of his body.)

2)Immediatly slide your right foot back into a 45 degree cat
stance.

3)Without hesitation deliver a right front ball snap kick to your
opponent's groin. (Your opponent's reaction should cause him to
bend forward at the waist.)

4)Plant your right foot forward into a right neutral bow (facing
12:00), to check your opponent's right knee, as you deliver a
right outward hand sword to the right side of your opponent's
neck. Remember to maintain the position of your left hand as a
precautionary check. Immediatly slide your right hand (after the
strike) to the right wrist of your opponent as a precautionary
check. (Your opponent's response should cause him to fall to the
ground.)

[Doc]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

(front - right hand lapel grab)

1)Standing naturally, step back with your left foot toward 6:00
into a right neutral bow stance facing 12:00, while simultaneously
executing a right inward block to the right inner wrist of your
opponent's right hand lapel grab. At the same time position your
left hand at solar-plexus level as a precautionary check against
further action. (Your block should expose the width of his body.)

2)Immediatly slide your right foot back into a 45 degree cat
stance.

3)Without hesitation deliver a right front ball snap kick to your
opponent's groin. (Your opponent's reaction should cause him to
bend forward at the waist.)

4)Plant your right foot forward into a right neutral bow (facing
12:00), to check your opponent's right knee, as you deliver a
right outward hand sword to the right side of your opponent's
neck. Remember to maintain the position of your left hand as a
precautionary check. Immediatly slide your right hand (after the
strike) to the right wrist of your opponent as a precautionary
check. (Your opponent's response should cause him to fall to the
ground.)

Well sir, I gues it's you and me.

Consider these comments to promote discussion.

Is this a lapel grab as stated, or an ATTEMPTED lapel grab?

If it is an ATTEMPTED lapel grab, then why are we stepping back into a cat stance (almost always wrong) when we've already established the distance initially when we "blocked" his wrist?

If this technique is essentially the same as your interpretation of "Sword of Destruction," (mirror image) why are you stepping forward into a cat stance there and not here?

If this technique is actually a lapel grab, then the lesson plan idea is contradictory and differs philosophically and physically from similar models.

It seems you have the last lesson plan written by Ed Parker for this technique. I recognize all the versions, but remember now, none of them tell you HOW. They are to make you think. recognize how this version really doesn't make sense if you allow all of it to be taken literally. Only ideas for you to work with.

Respectfully.

[Kenpo Wolf]

Excuse me, but in the three kenpo schools I've been in, delayed sword has always been against a right roundhouse punch and that is how I have almost always practiced it. Although it can be used against a lapel grab, I think it wont be as effective since since the block to the right arm may cause the left arm to 'orbit' into you. I'll apply it tomorrow to see how it works

[Bob Hubbard]

I just checked my book and the descriptions the same as Robs, and asked my GF whos training in Kenpo, and her response was "both" After some further discusion, I guess its an attempted lapel grab that may also be a roundhouse, and you modify accordingly. :confused: I think I remember doing it against a roundhouse though....

Was this technique taught in both Parker and Tracy Kenpo, and if so, has it been modified over the years as things were tweaked?

At this point, I'll let the experienced folks take a few whacks at it.

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I just checked my book and the descriptions the same as Robs, and asked my GF whos training in Kenpo, and her response was "both" After some further discusion, I guess its an attempted lapel grab that may also be a roundhouse, and you modify accordingly. :confused: I think I remember doing it against a roundhouse though....

Was this technique taught in both Parker and Tracy Kenpo, and if so, has it been modified over the years as things were tweaked?

At this point, I'll let the experienced folks take a few whacks at it.

Well I won't address Tracy material because I have no expertise in their curriculum. But all this does is point out what I've said all along. There is no consensus on Motion-Kenpo technique execution, and there is not supposed to be. However the lesson plan does exists for a reason, and if an instructor chooses to execute the technique as a punch, push, or round off flip flop, that is an I.D. (instructor decision)

But, doing so violates the lesson plan of Parker's Web of Knowledge and it's progressive attack consideration themes. This technique is labeled a lapel grab for a reason. It is designated a "dead hand" technique by design, and it is supposed to force instructors to formulate a method to deal with the dead hand seizure. Teaching it any other way violates the W.O.K. This is not necessarily a bad thing, it just is.

I am accustomed to seeing techniques of this type changed to accomodate the inability to understand how to deal with "grabbinbg" techniques. Instructors turn most of these techniques into "attempted grabs" because it is easier to teach. Unfortunately doing so, in addition to violating the W.O.K. also deprives students of the opportunity to learn to handle actually being grabbed. The mechanisms to extricate oneself from seizure type assaults are not a part of Motion-Kenpo curriculum, although it exists in the more capable instructors personal skills, and should be taught.

Once that is addressed, the we can discuss the execution.

[Les]

Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf

Excuse me, but in the three kenpo schools I've been in, delayed sword has always been against a right roundhouse punch and that is how I have almost always practiced it. Although it can be used against a lapel grab, I think it wont be as effective since since the block to the right arm may cause the left arm to 'orbit' into you. I'll apply it tomorrow to see how it works

It seems to me that blocking a right roundhouse with a right inward block isn't very logical. Your right hand has a lot of work to do in a very short space of time.

Also, when in the lapel grab, the left hand 'orbiting' into you shouldn't be a problem as you should have pulled your opponent off balance when you stepped back. Stepping back also 'moved the target', so you should be out of effective range of the left hand.

If not, we have a fix for that situation, in our 'what if' toolbox.

Les

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf

Excuse me, but in the three kenpo schools I've been in, delayed sword has always been against a right roundhouse punch and that is how I have almost always practiced it. Although it can be used against a lapel grab, I think it wont be as effective since since the block to the right arm may cause the left arm to 'orbit' into you. I'll apply it tomorrow to see how it works

I'm not sure where those 3 Kenpo schools are in No. Cal. (I'm assuming that's where you are by your profile) are but I've always been taught this technique for a Lapel Grab. We are also taught it as an alternate for an attempted grab and a punch, but initially for the grab. Your left hand becomes a pinning check to the arm of your opponent. I also teach Snapping Twig for a push but with an alternate of a grab if need be should the arm be in a different position than that for Lone Kimono. Myself, I've don't even wait for the grab or the punch to get that close, I drop to a cat stance from a natural and kick em in the Jimmy from the get go, but I don't teach it that way because the beginner needs to learn the principles and idea of the technique first.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[FLY]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz


Was this technique taught in both Parker and Tracy Kenpo, and if so, has it been modified over the years as things were tweaked?

At this point, I'll let the experienced folks take a few whacks at it.

As far as letting the experienced folks take a few whacks at it, I'll pass...;)
But to answer your question Kaith...yes it is taught in Tracy's Kenpo as well.
In Tracy's Kenpo it is taught as a defense against a right punch.

1. Left foot steps back to 6:00, Right foot simutaneously draws back to cat and you execute a right inward block to inside of right punch.

2. Right foot snap kick to the opponent's groin

3. Right foot plants down between the opponent's legs as you deliver a right chop to the right side of the opponent's neck/throat.

Oh ya....your left hand covers during the whole process ;)

FLY

:asian:

[headkick]

Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf

Excuse me, but in the three kenpo schools I've been in, delayed sword has always been against a right roundhouse punch and that is how I have almost always practiced it. Although it can be used against a lapel grab, I think it wont be as effective since since the block to the right arm may cause the left arm to 'orbit' into you. I'll apply it tomorrow to see how it works

Our modification is to trap the bad guys wrist. Two things happen then; 1) I can change the target of the inward block. I will sometimes practice shooting it as a punch to inside of the upper arm. 2) the step back into RNB while pinning cancels width and depth.

have a small student, maybe a woman, try delayed sword as written against a big guy and tell the guy not to let go. It can be very hard, particularly for people at the skill level where it's taught, to have a smaller person be effective with that inward block to the radial nerve.

Just my thoughts...

R

[Blindside]

How are you hitting the radial nerve? Is the opponent grabbing you with a fist held palm down to the floor. Usually when we do lapel grabs the grabber's hand is at least in a vertical position, and they are trying to twist to a palm up position to secure the lapel grab.

Is your pin converting the vertical hand to a horizontal hand? And where are you hitting the radial? Right above the elbow?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm just not seeing this motion. Maybe if you were hitting the ulnar nerve, but not the radial.

Help me out here.

Lamont

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by FLY



As far as letting the experienced folks take a few whacks at it, I'll pass...;)
But to answer your question Kaith...yes it is taught in Tracy's Kenpo as well.
In Tracy's Kenpo it is taught as a defense against a right punch.

1. Left foot steps back to 6:00, Right foot simutaneously draws back to cat and you execute a right inward block to inside of right punch.

2. Right foot snap kick to the opponent's groin

3. Right foot plants down between the opponent's legs as you deliver a right chop to the right side of the opponent's neck/throat.

Oh ya....your left hand covers during the whole process ;)

FLY

:asian:

Hey Fly!

Wanna have some fun with this technique? Try this:

s1. Left foot back to a neutral bow
s1. Right inward block to or slightly before the attacker's right wrist.
s1. Left hand check. You are using it as a punch defense and not a lapel grab, otherwise I would do a left hand slap-check to my left shoulder.
2. Slid your left foot up to your right without going to a cat
3. Using your "forward momentum" right snap kick to groin or area of the pubic bone.
s4. Step down your right foot to 12:00 neutral bow
s4. Right sword hand to right side of attacker's throat.

Just try it and see what you think ...

Dan Farmer

[FLY]

Originally posted by Sigung86



Just try it and see what you think ...

Dan Farmer

O.K.....**stands up to try it out in the living room** hmmmm, I think I like it :p
I'm definately gonna have to try it out with an opponent in class next time (wife won't uki for me anymore :D :confused: )
It feels to me that by sliding your left foot up to your right instead of retreating even more, that this variation would work better for me. I have long legs and occasionally I will step too far back/away, unless the opponent continues to come forward after the block, I find myself having to reach for or out of range of the target sometimes. Your idea would definately solve that problem.
I also like the increased power in the kick from the forward momentum.....and if you're close, the kick can be easily changed into a knee.
Although I haven't tried it yet (with an opponent) 'Arching Blades' feels that it would fit as a good extension to this tech also:
s4. right sword hand to right side of attackers throat
s5. left chop to same spot
s6. right elbow up to attacker's chin
s7. right claw to face.

Thank you for the 'food-for-thought' Sigung

FLY.
:asian:

[Sigung86]

Hey Fly!

Glad you liked it. Things like that can definitely assist in re-inventing yourself in a better form. Always happy to be of help.

However ... Please don't call me sigung, if you don't mind. That is a handle that I have used for years as a forum handle. I only know one person that carries Sigung as a nomer. That is Sigung Stephen LaBounty.

Thanks,

Dan Farmer

Originally posted by FLY



O.K.....**stands up to try it out in the living room** hmmmm, I think I like it :p
I'm definately gonna have to try it out with an opponent in class next time (wife won't uki for me anymore :D :confused: )
It feels to me that by sliding your left foot up to your right instead of retreating even more, that this variation would work better for me. I have long legs and occasionally I will step too far back/away, unless the opponent continues to come forward after the block, I find myself having to reach for or out of range of the target sometimes. Your idea would definately solve that problem.
I also like the increased power in the kick from the forward momentum.....and if you're close, the kick can be easily changed into a knee.
Although I haven't tried it yet (with an opponent) 'Arching Blades' feels that it would fit as a good extension to this tech also:
s4. right sword hand to right side of attackers throat
s5. left chop to same spot
s6. right elbow up to attacker's chin
s7. right claw to face.

Thank you for the 'food-for-thought' Sigung

FLY.
:asian:

[FLY]

Originally posted by Sigung86

However ... Please don't call me sigung, if you don't mind. That is a handle that I have used for years as a forum handle. I only know one person that carries Sigung as a nomer. That is Sigung Stephen LaBounty.

Thanks,

Dan Farmer


I don't mind at all...sorry about that. I'm assuming then that you would prefer Dan?

FLY.
:asian:

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by FLY



I don't mind at all...sorry about that. I'm assuming then that you would prefer Dan?

FLY.
:asian:

Fly ... You may call me what my Mother and Father called me...

Sir. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Just kidding. Dan would be absolutely fine.

Dan

[Les]

Originally posted by Sigung86



call me what my Mother and Father called me
Dan

Dan,

Until I started school I thought my name was Jesus Christ....

All I ever heard from my parents was,

'Jesus Christ...don't touch that'.

'Jesus Christ, stop that noise'.

'Jesus Christ, go out and play in the yard'.

'Jesus Christ, gimmee a break will you'.


:rofl:

Les

[Sigung86]

Very good! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan


Originally posted by Les



Dan,

Until I started school I thought my name was Jesus Christ....

All I ever heard from my parents was,

'Jesus Christ...don't touch that'.

'Jesus Christ, stop that noise'.

'Jesus Christ, go out and play in the yard'.

'Jesus Christ, gimmee a break will you'.


:rofl:

Les

[Bob Hubbard]

Cute guys... :)

Lets hop back on topic huh? Thanks!


Heres a question....where/how does 'marrage of gravity' apply?

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Cute guys... :)

Lets hop back on topic huh? Thanks!


Heres a question....where/how does 'marrage of gravity' apply?

Breath in -breath out- gravitational marriage is at work.

:asian:

[Kirk]

K, to break things down further, and get really anal, let me ask
this. You step back to a neutral bow, while simultaneously
executing a right inward block. The power principle associated
with this minute part, as I "know" it to be, is that you step back,
and while twisting with the hips into a true neutral bow, you
execute the block. Anyone do it this way? I have trouble getting
into it all, proper, before the hit/grab comes.

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by Kirk

K, to break things down further, and get really anal, let me ask
this. You step back to a neutral bow, while simultaneously
executing a right inward block. The power principle associated
with this minute part, as I "know" it to be, is that you step back,
and while twisting with the hips into a true neutral bow, you
execute the block. Anyone do it this way? I have trouble getting
into it all, proper, before the hit/grab comes.

I believe it's called Torque. Your using torque from your hips to break the hold.


Heres a question....where/how does 'marrage of gravity' apply?

I've always thought it was on the outward hand sword. As your foot lands from the kick your hitting with the outward hand sword.

:asian:

[Doc]

Originally posted by Rainman



Breath in -breath out- gravitational marriage is at work.

:asian:

Correct Sir. Every move you make every breath you take (is that a song?) Anyway Gravitational Marraige would best be thought of in degrees of assistance for the application at hand.

The human body and its Structural Integrity is predicated on the Resistance of Gravity in all actions.

[brianhunter]

does this have anything to do with how you incorporated breathing timing into techniques?????

[Doc]

Originally posted by brianhunter

does this have anything to do with how you incorporated breathing timing into techniques?????

Once again yes Sir. Good obs. Without proper breathing "settling" (rooting) is not even possible. Improper breathing creates bouyancy.

"Ummmm. The force is strong with this one."

[JD_Nelson]

I believe the right front ball kick should cause the attacker to bend forward at the waist.

When executing the outward handsword, the movement here should combine all three planes. Hoizontal, depth, and Vertical. If the handsword moves downward during this strike I believe this would be another example of marriage of gravity.

Kind Regards

Jeremy Nelson
Yellow AKKI

[Doc]

Originally posted by JD_Nelson

I believe the right front ball kick should cause the attacker to bend forward at the waist.

When executing the outward handsword, the movement here should combine all three planes. Hoizontal, depth, and Vertical. If the handsword moves downward during this strike I believe this would be another example of marriage of gravity.

Kind Regards

Jeremy Nelson
Yellow AKKI

In the manner of AK, I'm afraid you are incorrect on all counts.

[JD_Nelson]

Am i wrong by definition? or have I completely missed it all together?


Thank you,

Jeremy

[Doc]

Originally posted by JD_Nelson

Am i wrong by definition? or have I completely missed it all together?


Thank you,

Jeremy

Well Sir,

"I believe the right front ball kick should cause the attacker to bend forward at the waist."

The initial reaction to most stikes is well defined in human anatomy by method and manner of execution and specific targets. A front "ball kick" I presume in your method of executing the technique attacks the testicles. The reaction initially will be more of a "squatting action" dropping the buttocks with the back straight and chin up.

"When executing the outward handsword, the movement here should combine all three
planes. Hoizontal, depth, and Vertical."

Depth is not a "plane" and this action should not be described in terms of planes butinstead explain not only the execution but it's intended interaction with its target as well as possible effect.

"If the handsword moves downward during this strike I believe this would be another example of marriage of gravity."

Although technically, in Newtonian Physics, any action moving downward is affected by the "pull" of gravity, however in AK the terminology is reserved for a more specific application. ie. placing your foot down at the momemt of contact, allowing your strike to be enhanced by the "pull" of gravity on your entire body weight. The reality is not so much of an enhancement as an efficient application Sir.

[JD_Nelson]

.....you can still learn what not to do


Thanks Doc,

I did have some of the thoughts you described as well. Especially concerning planting the foot with the outward handsword. (At least i think this is what was meant) By AK definition I was wrong with the pull of gravity enhancing the strike. This definition clarifiation will help later on Even if I am not ever Wrong Again!!!

I now feel i have not had enough contact to determine the attackers true reaction concerning the front ball kick. thanks for the insight there as well.

I have much to learn!!!

Jeremy Nelson
Yellow AKKI

[Doc]

Originally posted by JD_Nelson

.....you can still learn what not to do


Thanks Doc,

I did have some of the thoughts you described as well. Especially concerning planting the foot with the outward handsword. (At least i think this is what was meant) By AK definition I was wrong with the pull of gravity enhancing the strike. This definition clarifiation will help later on Even if I am not ever Wrong Again!!!

I now feel i have not had enough contact to determine the attackers true reaction concerning the front ball kick. thanks for the insight there as well.

I have much to learn!!!

Jeremy Nelson
Yellow AKKI

We all are mere students Sir, and have much to learn. Some are just a little further down the road than others. Thank you for being receptive to my perspectives.

[JD_Nelson]

Maybe we should have some more incorrect assumptions here in teh technical forums, Seems that noone wants to discuss anything if they might me off a bit.

Best Regards,

Jeremy Nelson

[Doc]

Originally posted by JD_Nelson

Maybe we should have some more incorrect assumptions here in teh technical forums, Seems that noone wants to discuss anything if they might me off a bit.

Best Regards,

Jeremy Nelson

Me & you? Funny I thought that was what the "technical" section was for. Don't worry, there is at least a couple of numbskulls who'll pop up. :)

[Doc]

Originally posted by FLY



As far as letting the experienced folks take a few whacks at it, I'll pass...;)
But to answer your question Kaith...yes it is taught in Tracy's Kenpo as well.
In Tracy's Kenpo it is taught as a defense against a right punch.

1. Left foot steps back to 6:00, Right foot simutaneously draws back to cat and you execute a right inward block to inside of right punch.

2. Right foot snap kick to the opponent's groin

3. Right foot plants down between the opponent's legs as you deliver a right chop to the right side of the opponent's neck/throat.

Oh ya....your left hand covers during the whole process ;)

FLY

:asian:

For the record: Ed Parker taught Delayed Sword both ways, initially as a punch, then later as the WOK solidified, as a lapel grab. Different schools still do it the way they were taught, althought the "punch version" seems to be the most popular because it's the easiest, I think, to teach. Neither way is wrong, but eventually if you are to address the suggestions of the WOK, the lapel grab must be addressed.

[Touch Of Death]

I think delayed sword illistrates The entire art. To teach it as a defense against a missle attack is a natural extension of the grab defense. We create distance stabilize our base. While attempting to remain neutral our arm goes long recoils and grows long again. From neutrality we would choose to strike with which ever weopon the situation required. While kicking with the lead leg is the closest weopon the groin is not the closest target. We at this point would choose to effect our opponents posture or his balance. If we choose balance the kick to the groin we then be a sweep to the ankle or a stomp to the inside of the knee. It doesnt matter because the timing and basic motion will remain the same. The techniques are all, in fact, star block in a required situational order. If this is true then our basic jab,jab, cross is really one of the only ideas we really need and remembering a list of techniques not only becomes unusefull but hinders you as a martial artist. Any attack becomes a method by wich I may employ delayed sword; because, its all delayed sword. :)

[Marcus Buonfiglio]

"I drop to a cat stance from a natural and ""kick em in the Jimmy from the get go, ""


I haven't heard that expression in quite sometime. Clyde you crack me up:rofl: :rofl:

[Brenwulv]

Originally posted by Doc


The initial reaction to most stikes is well defined in human anatomy by method and manner of execution and specific targets. A front "ball kick" I presume in your method of executing the technique attacks the testicles. The reaction initially will be more of a "squatting action" dropping the buttocks with the back straight and chin up.


While I'm by no means the most knowledgeable around, I'm not sure how you figure this one, Sir.

If the kick were a scoop kick and came up more vertically from underneath the groin, then yes, I see the dropping of the hips, and "squatting" as you said.

A front kick however is just that, a kick from the front, impacting on a horizontal plane. This will cause the person to bend over at the waist, if nothing else but to move their groin away from the pain.

As for the term 'ball kick', that's just using the ball of the foot in the strike, not the whole sole. Ball kick doesn't equal testicle kick.

Respectfully,
Never

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Brenwulv
While I'm by no means the most knowledgeable around, I'm not sure how you figure this one, Sir.

If the kick were a scoop kick and came up more vertically from underneath the groin, then yes, I see the dropping of the hips, and "squatting" as you said.

A front kick however is just that, a kick from the front, impacting on a horizontal plane. This will cause the person to bend over at the waist, if nothing else but to move their groin away from the pain.

As for the term 'ball kick', that's just using the ball of the foot in the strike, not the whole sole. Ball kick doesn't equal testicle kick.

Respectfully,
Never

Had a very cool response here... But read Doc's reply... As usual... It is concise and correct. I don't need to get in depth ... So, I won't other than to reiterate the Good Doc's post and say, in a not too respectful manner ... You are incorrect.


Respectfully?
Oh sure, why not...

[Doc]

Originally posted by Brenwulv
[B]
A front kick however is just that, a kick from the front, impacting on a horizontal plane. This will cause the person to bend over at the waist, if nothing else but to move their groin away from the pain.

Moving the hips backwards does not equal "bendng over at the waist." Nor does it account for any significant strike to the lower body causing the feet to move rearward. The fallacy of being struck and suddenly "bending forward" is completely false.


As for the term 'ball kick', that's just using the ball of the foot in the strike, not the whole sole. Ball kick doesn't equal testicle kick.

I think I may be vaguely familiar with what is an incorrect and confusing use of the terminology. I was attempting to understand what "you" meant by the term. In our cuurriculum the ambiguous term "ball kick" doesn't exist.

[Brenwulv]

Originally posted by Sigung86
Had a very cool response here... But read Doc's reply... As usual... It is concise and correct. I don't need to get in depth ... So, I won't other than to reiterate the Good Doc's post and say, in a not too respectful manner ... You are incorrect.


Respectfully?
Oh sure, why not...

Why not tell me in your words why I'm wrong? Perhaps you can explain it in a way that will make me see it better.

And Never is a nickname of mine, but I can see how my sig might be misinterpreted, so I apologise.

Respectfully,
Joel

[Doc]

Originally posted by Brenwulv
Why not tell me in your words why I'm wrong? Perhaps you can explain it in a way that will make me see it better.

And Never is a nickname of mine, but I can see how my sig might be misinterpreted, so I apologise.

Respectfully,
Joel
No problem I figured it was your nickname.

You are not "wrong" and I don't see it that way, it is simply finding common ground for communication in this medium.

Anyway the term we use is a "front kick," to describe the action, then "with the ball of the foot," to describe the weapon. This is a more descriptive and appropriate use of the terminology. After all a front kick can utilize more than one weapon. Admittedly "ball kick" is slang and could be misconstrued as the action, target, or both. To avoid confusion I try to avoid slang in academic discussions without some clarifications.

[Brenwulv]

Originally posted by Doc
I think I may be vaguely familiar with what is an incorrect and confusing use of the terminology. I was attempting to understand what "you" meant by the term. In our cuurriculum the ambiguous term "ball kick" doesn't exist.

How is it incorrect or confusing, Sir? Most all strikes are named in such a way to know exactly what strike is used, not which target is hit. An upward elbow can be used to strike the face, countless techniques, or the groin, as in Bowing to Buddha.

No one seemed to disagree that the kick in this tech goes to the groin, so how is a 'front ball kick' confusing terminology? It tells you what type of strike to use, namely, a front kick which uses the ball of the foot as the striking surface. I'm genuinely trying to understand this.




[B]Moving the hips backwards does not equal "bendng over at the waist." Nor does it account for any significant strike to the lower body causing the feet to move rearward. The fallacy of being struck and suddenly "bending forward" is completely false.
[B]


It would only be a fallacy if I were speaking on the words of someone else. I've seen it happen, done it to people, and have had it done to me on many occasions.

I'll try to clear this up as I see it.

Someone is running along the street at a good pace. They run past me. I stick out my arm at their head level. Their head stops while the rest of their body will continue on the fact of momentum alone.

Now this person is running and instead of the face, I smack them with a bat in the hips/upper thigh area. You're telling me that they will stop dead and squat down from the pain? More than likely their shoulders will continue from momentum and they will tumble head first to the ground.

Now in the case of techniques I'll use Delayed Sword and Sword of Destruction. Both motions you step back and block as commonly taught (I can't fathom how stepping back or forward into the same exact stance causes misalignment one way and not the other, but that isn't the discussion at present.)

For Sword of Destruction they come at you with a left roundhouse punch. You step back with the block, then slide to the cat and throw the front kick to the groin. Their momentum is moving forward and you shove their hips back. Their shoulders will move forward, some more than others, but they still come forward. I'd call that bending at the waist -> hips move back, shoulders move forward, something is bending somewhere.

Now, Delayed Sword for a grab. Most likely the person will have a nice tight grip and a slightly bent and tense arm, possibly to pull you into a strike with the left. You step back to give them momentum toward you, block, slide to cat and throw the kick to the groin. Their hips stop moving forward and their shoulders keep coming. Bending at the waist to some extent.

This is how I see these techniques and I've explained it as best I can at present. It seems like you are saying that kicking a person on the horizontal plane makes them react in a vertical one (squatting down as you said, not talking buckling legs and their height drops).

If this is what you are saying, then it would seem that you are also saying all the techniques that say "strike them in the groin to bend them forward to follow with such and such a strike" are wrong. If that's the case then many of the techniques in EPAK are wrong and Mr. Parker was mistaken about human reactions.

I highly doubt that is what you are saying, Sir.

Respectfully,
Joel

[Brenwulv]

Originally posted by Doc

Anyway the term we use is a "front kick," to describe the action, then "with the ball of the foot," to describe the weapon. This is a more descriptive and appropriate use of the terminology. After all a front kick can utilize more than one weapon. Admittedly "ball kick" is slang and could be misconstrued as the action, target, or both. To avoid confusion I try to avoid slang in academic discussions without some clarifications.

Fair enough, I find it just descriptive of the weapon like any other name.
Front kick.
Front snap kick.
Front snap ball kick.

But I can see your point as it might be misconstrued(sp?) as a groin kick.

(and that answers the one question from my other post :) )
Respectfully,
Joel

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Doc
For the record: Ed Parker taught Delayed Sword both ways, initially as a punch, then later as the WOK solidified, as a lapel grab. Different schools still do it the way they were taught, althought the "punch version" seems to be the most popular because it's the easiest, I think, to teach. Neither way is wrong, but eventually if you are to address the suggestions of the WOK, the lapel grab must be addressed.

At the school where I studied, we were initially taught the tech against the punch. However we had some females enrole, that weren't really prepared for the level of contact that was prevalent at that stage. So for them to learn the tech effectively, without lowering our prefered level of contact, we changed it to the grab.

These days from what I have been told, it is taught only as a grab, even though, due to commercial considerations, the level of contact has dropped off considerably at the lower ranks.

Hey Doc, what about the nerve strike applications?

--Dave
:asian:

[Doc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
At the school where I studied, we were initially taught the tech against the punch. However we had some females enrole, that weren't really prepared for the level of contact that was prevalent at that stage. So for them to learn the tech effectively, without lowering our prefered level of contact, we changed it to the grab.

These days from what I have been told, it is taught only as a grab, even though, due to commercial considerations, the level of contact has dropped off considerably at the lower ranks.

Hey Doc, what about the nerve strike applications?

--Dave
:asian:
Could you be specific please sir? :asian:

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Doc
Could you be specific please sir? :asian:

Ok, if we look at the grab technique. What would be the optimum area to strike?
Obviously you can't give indepth detail via this medium, but you could give specifics as to where we would strike on the grabbing arm, where we would benefit most from the kick, eg. the groin, or the pressure points in the lower or upper leg, etc.
And then I guess, which target point on the neck would most likely give us the best outcome with regards to stopping the attack, and doing minimal damage to our opponent?

I do have some of my own ideas, but I guess time served just doesn't allow me to express them as well as you do.:)

Also I thought it might bring a different perspective to the way some of the others reading this thread might look at things...

--Dave

:asian:

[Doc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
[B]Ok, if we look at the grab technique. What would be the optimum area to strike?

In our curriculum we do not focus on striking the wrist. That would be anatomical difficult and not accomplish our immediate perspective for this technique. Rather the hand is “pinned” so we have “control” of it, and a point on the head of the shoulder is struck to remove strength in the hand. This way the “pinned” hand is used to our advantage, but may be easily “removed” when we are ready.


Obviously you can't give in depth detail via this medium, but you could give specifics as to where we would strike on the grabbing arm, where we would benefit most from the kick, eg. the groin, or the pressure points in the lower or upper leg, etc.

We do not strike the arm in the technique.


And then I guess, which target point on the neck would most likely give us the best outcome with regards to stopping the attack, and doing minimal damage to our opponent?

Minimal damage to an opponent should not be your first consideration, unless you have sufficient skill to accomplish such a lofty goal. Control of the situation is first and foremost, with modulating the amount of destruction a secondary consideration for those who are capable of doing so.

Simply:

The hand is “pinned.”
The shoulder is struck.
The kick is a “Gauging Kick” to CV-1
The hand-sword strikes LI-18.

However none of these will work unless you set up the proper mechanisms, postures, weight distribution, angles, etc. The myth is "if I know the points, I can just add it to what I know." If it were that simple everybody would be doing it.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Doc
In our curriculum we do not focus on striking the wrist. That would be anatomical difficult and not accomplish our immediate perspective for this technique. Rather the hand is “pinned” so we have “control” of it, and a point on the head of the shoulder is struck to remove strength in the hand. This way the “pinned” hand is used to our advantage, but may be easily “removed” when we are ready.

We do not strike the arm in the technique.

Minimal damage to an opponent should not be your first consideration, unless you have sufficient skill to accomplish such a lofty goal. Control of the situation is first and foremost, with modulating the amount of destruction a secondary consideration for those who are capable of doing so.

Simply:

The hand is “pinned.”
The shoulder is struck.
The kick is a “Gauging Kick” to CV-1
The hand-sword strikes LI-18.

However none of these will work unless you set up the proper mechanisms, postures, weight distribution, angles, etc. The myth is "if I know the points, I can just add it to what I know." If it were that simple everybody would be doing it.


I find more and more, that instaed of adding the points to what I know, I am adding what I know to the points.....

I hope that makes sense.:D

--Dave

:asian:

[Doc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
I find more and more, that instaed of adding the points to what I know, I am adding what I know to the points.....

I hope that makes sense.:D

--Dave

:asian:
Are you kidding? You're preaching to the chior here. The points are a "minor" component when viewed from the totality of the information needed to be functional. Anybody can find a point and strike someone standing still. But to utilize it effectvely in "real time" situations requires rare information that very, very, very few have. So what happens to their "grip strength" when you strike L-1? :)

Hope you saw my message to contact the editor over at CFW regarding back issues and or comments about the magazine. Drop him an e-mail and tell him I "sent you." He'll take care of you. His name is Doug
DougJeffrey@CFWEnterprises.com

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Doc
Are you kidding? You're preaching to the chior here. The points are a "minor" component when viewed from the totality of the information needed to be functional. Anybody can find a point and strike someone standing still. But to utilize it effectvely in "real time" situations requires rare information that very, very, very few have. So what happens to their "grip strength" when you strike L-1? :)

I think I understand what you mean here. I will quite often when learning new stuff regarding points, ask questions along the lines of, "but what happens if you do............?". I must admit, I like it when the answer starts with, "Good Question!" :D


Hope you saw my message to contact the editor over at CFW regarding back issues and or comments about the magazine. Drop him an e-mail and tell him I "sent you." He'll take care of you. His name is Doug
DougJeffrey@CFWEnterprises.com

I did see that. Have you made other contributions to this mag?
I must admit, the issue with your stuff in it, was the first I have purchased. I am seriously considering subscribing, especially with the Aussie dollar, doing so well against the US one.

Actually, I was wondering what other mags you have contributed to.

--Dave



:asian:

[Doc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
I think I understand what you mean here. I will quite often when learning new stuff regarding points, ask questions along the lines of, "but what happens if you do............?". I must admit, I like it when the answer starts with, "Good Question!" :D



I did see that. Have you made other contributions to this mag?
I must admit, the issue with your stuff in it, was the first I have purchased. I am seriously considering subscribing, especially with the Aussie dollar, doing so well against the US one.

Actually, I was wondering what other mags you have contributed to.

--Dave



:asian:
I am a regular contributor and writer for that magazine. I go way back with many of the people in the industry. CFW stands for "Curtis F. Wong." Brother of my old school mate now GM Douglas Wong and nephew to our first teacher GM Ark Wong.

I was in some of the first issues of Inside Kung fu, and was a centerfold when they were doing that for a while. I've written and been in black belt over the years, Official Karate, ISOK Magazine, and Karate Illustrated that I readily remember.

Drop Doug Jeffrey a line at the magazine and speak your mind and make him help you with those back issues. I have an article in next months issue as well.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Doc
I am a regular contributor and writer for that magazine. I go way back with many of the people in the industry. CFW stands for "Curtis F. Wong." Brother of my old school mate now GM Douglas Wong and nephew to our first teacher GM Ark Wong.

I was in some of the first issues of Inside Kung fu, and was a centerfold when they were doing that for a while. I've written and been in black belt over the years, Official Karate, ISOK Magazine, and Karate Illustrated that I readily remember.

Drop Doug Jeffrey a line at the magazine and speak your mind and make him help you with those back issues. I have an article in next months issue as well.

Thank you sir, I'll do that. And I'll get next months issue as well.

--Dave

:asian: