Could you admit you're wrong?

[lonecoyote]

There are those of us who've asked questions of instructors only to be blown off, or had a game run on us (that wouldn't work because you'd be knocked out, if I didn't pull my punch, that doesn't work because you're making this mistake, that wouldn't work because you're out of alignment, I'd just flow into this technique, etc. there are others, you know what I mean) , usually it's not worth it to be rude and push the issue, but I have had a very few say something like "Against a trained grappler or someone with a weapon, you'd absolutely have a lot of trouble pulling this off, you're right" My jaw hit the floor because that doesn't happen often. Could you admit that your art, or your master, or the grandmaster of your art could be wrong about something, not everything, not enough to make you quit and do something else, but just wrong in some way.

[Gemini]

That's possible, but the amount of times I thought he was wrong or doing exactly what you're saying, only to learn, as I gained in experience, that he was right, far outweigh it. Though we perceive things based on where we are in our journey, often times our perception changes later on in our travels.

Now, some seniors I've had on the other hand, well that's a different story.

[Flying Crane]

I've had a sneeking suspicion for a long time that much of what has crept into the martial arts is wrong. I don't know exactly how it happens, but things based on erroneous and even dangerous assumptions get codified into a curriculum and passed on to the next generation. Once you recognize this, I guess you recognize that those who did this, and taught it to you were certainly wrong. For a long time I just accepted what I was taught, but once I started to really examine what was wrong in what I practice, I guess that is admitting that I was also wrong.

I think everyone has an obligation, at least to themselves, to analyze what they do and try to determine if it makes sense or not. If not, weed it out. Nobody is perfect in this assessment, but you should do the best you can.

If you teach, you have a double obligation to be honest with your students. Nobody should be teaching something that they know in their heart is wrong, even if it is part of the curriculum and tradition that was passed down to you.

I hope that I could admit error if I needed to. I don't teach so I only need to admit this to myself for now. I am not terribly attached to a specific curriculum, so I think I can be open about what I believe is wrong.

[Andrew Green]

Heh, I'm wrong all the time ;)

Truthfully my opinion is that anyone that claims to never be wrong is probably wrong about a lot, including whether or not they are wrong :)

If you're never wrong you never take risks, never push into something new, and I don't think that's worth doing. Some students look for a "perfect" god-like master under which to study, I'll never be one of those, on either end :)

[MartialIntent]

Agree with the above... I don't believe that it's as much about admitting the art or it's founder was wrong - for me, it's more a case of admitting limitations within the art and moreover admitting that no single art can be all things to all people.

Personally I see a certain prevalant arrogance throughout the martial arts community which drives practitioners to view their art as *the* only truely genuine martial art and which also sustains belief that their art is a perfectly flawless creation. I think this attitude does no favors to the students and more seriously endow them with false confidence, which is acceptable in the dojo but not on the street.

I think it shows a level of maturity in any art that it can accept criticism reflectively and acknowledge it's limitations.

Interesting idea.

Respects!

[MA-Caver]

The ability to admit you're wrong is directly disproportional to the size of your ego.

[shesulsa]

What is this "W" word you speak of? I don't recognize it. :ultracool

Of course - we all are wrong at times. If we weren't we wouldn't be living.

[beau_safken]

Ask anyone here...I make an ass of myself a lot.

[RoninPimp]

I'm never wrong. Just ask my wife. On second thought...

[MA-Caver]

Ask anyone here...I make an ass of myself a lot.
don't need to ask... it's ....

[MA-Caver]

:D (just kidding)

[Lisa]

Ask anyone here...I make an ass of myself a lot.

Yup. :) ;)

Everyone is wrong at some point. Some of the best lessons I have learned in life I learned from the mistakes I have made.

[lenatoi]

:boing2: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Xue Sheng]

I could admit I was wrong..but I could be wrong about that.

[beau_safken]

:D (just kidding)

:CTF: Your turn next time bro ;)

If only it wasnt sooo true....

[Makalakumu]

What may be wrong for you, may not be wrong for another.

Some things in MA are like this. However, it can be difficult pinning down what those things are.

Try not to be hasty with judgement, especially when it comes to saying people are wrong.

Yet be honest enough with oneself to understand your limitations.

This discussion inheritly involves who we are as individuals.

[stickarts]

My instructor would very seldom say something was wrong but that "you could do it that way also". Then he would go on to show you a better way then you were doing it.
To directly answer the question, :) yes, I have found some techniques I was doing to be ineffective when put to the test and eventually admitted it. :)
I have seldom heard my instructors say they were wrong but then again, I have seldom been able to prove them wrong as their skill was above mine at what they did.

[Kacey]

All the time, yes... everyone makes mistakes, no matter what the field or activity. Not admitting it shows a lack of integrity. I would much rather admit my mistake than repeat it, or worse, have it copied by someone who thought I was correct.

[Cruentus]

There are those of us who've asked questions of instructors only to be blown off, or had a game run on us (that wouldn't work because you'd be knocked out, if I didn't pull my punch, that doesn't work because you're making this mistake, that wouldn't work because you're out of alignment, I'd just flow into this technique, etc. there are others, you know what I mean) , usually it's not worth it to be rude and push the issue, but I have had a very few say something like "Against a trained grappler or someone with a weapon, you'd absolutely have a lot of trouble pulling this off, you're right" My jaw hit the floor because that doesn't happen often. Could you admit that your art, or your master, or the grandmaster of your art could be wrong about something, not everything, not enough to make you quit and do something else, but just wrong in some way.

I believe that the best fighters and teachers are the ones who have been able to admit fault, at least to themselves. How else would they have continued to improve to be the best?

When we put together programs, we aim to have the best program available on the market. Yet, I am excited when I discover new data (or a different way to interpret old data), and I can update my programs. I feel fortunate when I "screw up" on the training floor because that gives me a learning opportunity in a safe environment, unlike real combat which can be unforgiving. I believe the training environment is where your supposed to "goof up" or be wrong at times, because that is where the learning takes place.

In fact, we have the Combat Researchers Guild made up of professionals that is dedicated to "finding holes" in techniques, concepts, and training methods to improve upon them, as well as the dedication to training what we have discovered to be effective.

I wouldn't expect a martial arts program to have the same outlook as we do. If they do, that is nice, but I wouldn't expect it. The reason is because a martial art is dedicated to preserving a fighting tradition, where as we are not really; and even though some parts of that tradition may not be valid today, people want to believe that what they are training is the best, and changing or "updating" could mean abandoning tradition, or it could mean that their tradition didn't have the best solution possible. The idea of change, or of their "master" being "wrong" can be a real identity crises for many people.

We take a researchers approach which is defined by being able to look at data OBJECTIVELY, without being afraid to point out holes. We are looking to find the limitations of a method as well the advantages. Since I established Tulisan Company in order to move in this direction, I now couldn't see going back and doing things any other way...

Paul Janulis

[Cruentus]

What may be wrong for you, may not be wrong for another.


I understand what you are saying.

I just wanted to point out one important thing, though, since we are talking about effectiveness of our training here.

Reality, and what happeneds in reality is not an opinion or a perception or a personal viewpoint. It just is. If we are talking about a lot of things, we can get into perceptions, theoretical and philisophical debates, and so forth. We can talk about how what is "right" for you may not be for someone else, etc. We can do this about most things, but we can't really afford to do this so much when it counts, in real combat. Nothing is more "real" and unforgiving then people trying to hurt or kill each other, and nothing could be more evident during this process as to what works and what doesn't, and what is more effective.

Therefore, strong belief or hope that what you are training is effective will not make it effective - it either is or it isn't.

I just think that we need to train with this idea in mind.

Paul

[Hand Sword]

Yup! Hope and beleif disappear quickly after a good punch in the face is received!

[bushidomartialarts]

i'm fortunate at my school because we have three experienced instructors with pretty much the same same and time training. so we keep each other honest.

i used to hate "but sensei ________ teaches it this way....". now i find it a great opportunity to explore the technique more deeply.

[Rich Parsons]

What is this "W" word you speak of? I don't recognize it. :ultracool

Of course - we all are wrong at times. If we weren't we wouldn't be living.

"G", your first line I assume was for us male types. ;)

And the second line for the Women of this forum. :D


Seriously, I have admitted if I was wrong. I also do thing that are wrong to help the students learn.

[shesulsa]

"G", your first line I assume was for us male types. ;)

And the second line for the Women of this forum. :D

Wrong again! :lol2::wink1::boing1:

[Hand Sword]

I can when I am. I was always raised that way and have kept to it. I also apologize too. (o.k., time to build the wall back up again!)

[still learning]

Hello, NOPE! and only if am ever wrong..which is never... oops something is wrong here...sorry..I apologize!

Ah! To be perfect......not for everyone...this works only for those who are right all the time.

They have not teach me " PERFECT" yet...still learning how..?

But it takes alot of effort not to be on the WRONG side....still learning to stay on the RIGHT side.....

To be grown up is to admit you are wrong when you are wrong. .....RIGHT? .........Aloha

PS: anyone giving the WRONG answer here will be sent to bed!

[Brandon Fisher]

Yes I can admit when I am wrong, have made a mistake, or when something simply won't work in a situation. I think thats all part of being a good teacher.

[MJS]

There are those of us who've asked questions of instructors only to be blown off, or had a game run on us (that wouldn't work because you'd be knocked out, if I didn't pull my punch, that doesn't work because you're making this mistake, that wouldn't work because you're out of alignment, I'd just flow into this technique, etc. there are others, you know what I mean) , usually it's not worth it to be rude and push the issue, but I have had a very few say something like "Against a trained grappler or someone with a weapon, you'd absolutely have a lot of trouble pulling this off, you're right" My jaw hit the floor because that doesn't happen often. Could you admit that your art, or your master, or the grandmaster of your art could be wrong about something, not everything, not enough to make you quit and do something else, but just wrong in some way.

IMO, it takes alot for people to admit that they may be wrong about something. We see it all the time, especially on a place like this. We can see pages and pages of people saying that 'their' way is 'the' way of doing something. Personally, I feel that its good to always keep an open mind, as there will always be a better way or someone better than you out there.

Mike

[terryl965]

I have tought about this question for a long time and I would admit if I was wrong but just for the record, I have never ever been wrong.

And for those of you that really really know me, you know I have never ever been wrong for the simple fact that I only give opinions and we all know opinions can not be wrong only facts!!!!http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Your overly opinion person and by the way this is just my opinion!!
Terry

[still learning]

Hello, Some people do take an "opinion" as facts...be carefull here. This is just my opinion on this.

Facts will show(history) that someone opinions has started wars....Aloha

Um' do we know one here? ...........Aloha

[terryl965]

Hello, Some people do take an "opinion" as facts...be carefull here. This is just my opinion on this.

Facts will show(history) that someone opinions has started wars....Aloha

Um' do we know one here? ...........Aloha

I have no earthly ideal what you are talking about, just my opinion, I mean facts oh dammit I mean opinion.
Terry

PS by the way to answer the question I could always admit I was wrong just ask my wife, she still lets me sleep in our bed because I'm always wrong and can admit she is always right.
Terry

[Hand Sword]

The unforgiving couch? Good point to remember! Humility is also a martial art quality! You have to lose sometimes, in order to win!

[FearlessFreep]

Way to manuever, Terry : )