punching...

[hand2handCombat]

maybe u guys might disagree but i think most MA's punches are terrible. why?becasue they are more technique oriented. im gonna cross train in western boxing soon becasue i suck at punchin. what u guys think?

[tmanifold]

western boxing punches are designed to have a glove on the end of them. I have found many martial arts have good punches but very few people train them against hard contact. How many people use a real Makiwara(sp?) any more, or practice a reverse punch on heavy bag?

An over hand right will break your hand if thrown without gloves, as will a hook if it is not throw just right. It is to bad there isn't anyone around that can teach old school bareknuckle boxing. It isn't that closely related to modern boxing.


Tony

[hand2handCombat]

one reason why i think that ppl dont train in hard contact is becasue heavy bags, unlike ppl are hard and dont really move much. the only part that moves it the bottom.

they should make almost human like dummeis.

[KennethKu]

Today's makiwara is mostly a canvas bag filled with beans or rice for entry level training , and BB's (buck shot or ball bearings) or gravels for hardcore training. It is 10X harder to hit than a heavybag.

The traditional makiwara is hard on the fists. Then again, punching a 50 lb canvas bag of pit rock, has not exactly being a catwalk for my forefists.

[Carbon]

You won't always break your hand throwing punches. Trust me its the way you roll your fist the amount of support your knuckles get. This is why holding a roll of quarters let you hit harder because you can exert more force without your knuckles folding in.

I have seen many bare knuckle fights and rarely have I seen broken hands. Yes maybe bruised hands but never broken. They are usually only broke by someone who is just plain awful at throwing a punch and throws wildly.

MA punches are fine except for the fact that you are only going to use 1 to 3 different punches in a real fight and most likely won't be perfect technique. I think that if you really want to learn how to strike effectively with your hands, take up wing chun.

[tmanifold]

Originally posted by Carbon

You won't always break your hand throwing punches. Trust me its the way you roll your fist the amount of support your knuckles get. This is why holding a roll of quarters let you hit harder because you can exert more force without your knuckles folding in.

I have seen many bare knuckle fights and rarely have I seen broken hands. Yes maybe bruised hands but never broken. They are usually only broke by someone who is just plain awful at throwing a punch and throws wildly.



I know that you don't always break your hand throwing punches but if you throw an overhand right (the most popuar "power" puch these days) you have a good chance. The same goes for hooks unless you throw the just right.

I admit that some boxing punches are very good and the use of combos is one of the keys to boxings effectiveness. Here are some limitations:

Boxing punches are designed to use the gloves to an advantage. If you added a full pound to your fist you would want the weight in the end of an arc instead of driven in to a target as you should do bare knuckle. Also, a vertical fist is stronger than a horizontal fist, which is taught in boxing. Lastly the boxing stance does not prevent closing to grappling range because the ref will seperate you. Old time bareknucklers would stand in that "fighting irish" stance because it presented a physical barrier to an opponet that wanted to grapple instead of box, as was legal in those days.

Three punches I take from boxing:
A piston like right cross that driven in and uses a vertical fist.
A straight, stiff jab also called a straight blast
An uppercut that goes straight up the pipe between the elbows, not on a 45.
Also if you don't do a lot of hard contact sparring, boxing will teach you not to turn away and just fight.


Tony

[cdhall]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

maybe u guys might disagree but i think most MA's punches are terrible. why?becasue they are more technique oriented. im gonna cross train in western boxing soon becasue i suck at punchin. what u guys think?

You may be right, but I don't throw punches to bony target really and I think bag-work is sufficient to train my punches. I used to do lots of bag-work and I notice that when I've been off a long time, I hurt my wrist when I take it back up.

However, I don't throw a lot of punches anyway. I prefer to heel-palm so I can grab/rake/tear, but I do like to use backknuckles as well. Hammerfists, and handswords may be my next most-used strikes.


:asian:

[Yari]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

maybe u guys might disagree but i think most MA's punches are terrible.



You are correct , I disagree. I would say that many MA don't know the correct application of the punch.
But I would like to hear which punches you mean?




why?becasue they are more technique oriented. im gonna cross train in western boxing soon becasue i suck at punchin. what u guys think?

As somebody mentioned before. Boxing is with gloves, even the gaurd in boxing uses the gloves.

I don't know which art/style you pratice, it would be interessting to know how you think cross training will help.


/Yari

[J-kid]

Westen Boxing has alot of pluses...... Because of the fact when they swing there guard is up , if you ask me they have written the book on punching just because its so effective the way they do it i dont think Most MAs can punch worth **** bringing a punch down lets your oppent take a swing at your face . with out a guard you get hit you cant block every thing.Your friend - Judo-kid

[Yari]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

with out a guard you get hit you cant block every thing.Your friend - Judo-kid

Have you ever thought of that, as something positiv. Getting people to throw a punch in head-hight opens them up. And since you "know" he's going to throw it there, it's dobble as easy.

But this takes more than a few years to get because it's hard. But ask around, the best way to take somebody is to place yourself in a situaiton were you have control; punches /kicks / strangles and so on.

/Yari

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by KennethKu

Today's makiwara is mostly a canvas bag filled with beans or rice for entry level training , and BB's (buck shot or ball bearings) or gravels for hardcore training. It is 10X harder to hit than a heavybag.


First off:

Maki= rap
Wara= staw

Makiwara=wrapped straw.
Not bean filled bags or any other such thing.


Originally posted by KennethKu

The traditional makiwara is hard on the fists. Then again, punching a 50 lb canvas bag of pit rock, has not exactly being a catwalk for my forefists.

Actually no. With proper training it is not that hard on the fists at all.
One should work up gradually and COMFORTABLY on the makiwara..............don't slam your fist into from day one.
Work up at a comfortable pace to more powerful strikes.
Most practitioners today think the makiwara is to make those nice big callused knuckles....................wrong.
Makiwara training is to develop a strong punch by strengthening the wrist, arms and back, and to some extant the legs.
It teaches proper distance, focus, and power.

I use the makiwara as a litmus test for common sense in karateka.
Those that give it a good hard smack the very first time and injure themselves lack common sense.................since there is not much difference in that and smacking a tree.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

................... i dont think Most MAs can punch worth ****
Your friend - Judo-kid


Is that so?

I disagree. My teacher punched a metal kendo helmet and put a pretty good sized dent in it.
No doubt it would have do some damage to someone's face if he punched them.

[Eraser]

Hmmmm

I dont believe that the punches in Hapkido suck... I may Suck at applying them.. but.. i need more practise.. They can be very powerful, (as long as i remember to retract my other hand properly) When you learn how to use your whole body for the punch, they can be very effective.. but like others before me have posted, Its not somthing that you learned overnight.. it takes practise.....lots and lots..

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Actually no. With proper training it is not that hard on the fists at all.
One should work up gradually and COMFORTABLY on the makiwara..............don't slam your fist into from day one.
Work up at a comfortable pace to more powerful strikes.
Most practitioners today think the makiwara is to make those nice big callused knuckles....................wrong.
Makiwara training is to develop a strong punch by strengthening the wrist, arms and back, and to some extant the legs.
It teaches proper distance, focus, and power.

I use the makiwara as a litmus test for common sense in karateka.
Those that give it a good hard smack the very first time and injure themselves lack common sense.................since there is not much difference in that and smacking a tree.


With all due respect sir, straw Makiwara is obsolete. The physical feature of Makiwara can be duplicated without the limitation of traditional Makiwara. It is basicall a combo of elasticity (the pole limited flexibility provides the resistance) and a shock absorber (the straw). (BTW, most of today's Makiwara is either canvas bag of particles or rubber foam punching pad. Both are wall mounted. If anyone want a traditional Makiwara, he would most likely have to make his own. At least that is the case in the US and Canada. )

In that regards, JMHO that, a canvas bag filled with hard particles (BB's , gravels), will offer the same conditioning benefits AND furthermore, does not hold back strength developement. Yes, you punch as heavily as you go. Risk of injury is much lower than when a pole Makiwara is used. The canvas bag of particles provides both the resistance as well as the shock absorber. It is far more accomodating than a pole in the ground. Of course, that is just a personal opinion :asian:

As to the limitation of Makiwara in holding back strength development, the following article does a better job in explaining it.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/101/28_makiwara.html

[Nightingale]

I practice my punches on a heavy bag all the time. I wrap my hands, but don't wear gloves or anything.

However, when I'm fighting, I tend to use ridgehands and backknuckles much more than punches... I dunno. maybe punching is more of a guy thing.

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Yari



Have you ever thought of that, as something positiv. Getting people to throw a punch in head-hight opens them up. And since you "know" he's going to throw it there, it's dobble as easy.

But this takes more than a few years to get because it's hard. But ask around, the best way to take somebody is to place yourself in a situaiton were you have control; punches /kicks / strangles and so on.

/Yari

Good point Yari. At my last tournament I fought a guy who was much taller than me, he had a significant reach advantage, but several times he came in with a roundhouse punch and I was able to kick him right in the groin. I was amazed that he never caught on. I do this a lot so I caution you to remember that boxers are not at all concerned with sweeps, buckles, traps, or kicks of any kind Especially kicks to the groin. So perhaps hand2hand just needs to work on his punching.

Someone else posted about their teacher hitting a helmet. I have also hit a few doors and walls and stuff before and done noticeable damage without hurting my wrist so I would have to say that a 2000 year old fighting style is not to blame for bad punches, it is more likely the practicioner.

I'd rather be able to trap, coutergrab and use my hands than fight with boxing gloves any day.

Just my 2 1/2 cents. :)
:asian:

[fissure]

I think MA offers some of the most potentionally powerful punching tech. around.However many people get into the habit of hitting nothing but air, resulting in less than functonal tech.I mean this in the same way that when someone kicks a heavy bag with a front kick for the first time, often thier foot shoots 'up' the front of the bag instead of 'into' it.


a canvas bag filled with hard particles (BB's , gravels), will offer the same conditioning benefits AND furthermore, does not hold back strength developement.

I think this is true to the some extent.However I don't believe the bag will give you the recoil effect of a tapered makiwara board.This recoil is one component of strenghtening the wrist,tendons,ect.

Even though I was 'made fun of ' somewhat in another forum for bringing up board breaking, I'm going to do it again!
I still say you can't punch through too many boards without hurting yourself, if you are not a strong puncher.I have broken 7 boards at once, with a reverse punch.I'm sure there are many who could do more, but I think this represents a decent punch none the less.
Just my opinions.:EG:

[hand2handCombat]

i dont have to worry about the defences bescasue martial arts provide excellent defense. i have a great kick but weak punch.

i bet u guys caN RElate to being a better kicker that puncher

[Eraser]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

i bet u guys caN RElate to being a better kicker that puncher

I'm way better at kicking.....;)

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

i dont have to worry about the defences bescasue martial arts provide excellent defense. i have a great kick but weak punch.

i bet u guys caN RElate to being a better kicker that puncher

I should be equally effecient at both, but if you include palm, strikes and such, I would say I'm a much better puncher than kicker, but thats relative to my style.

7sm

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by fissure

I think MA offers some of the most potentionally powerful punching tech. around.However many people get into the habit of hitting nothing but air, resulting in less than functonal tech.I mean this in the same way that when someone kicks a heavy bag with a front kick for the first time, often thier foot shoots 'up' the front of the bag instead of 'into' it.

Very true Sir.


I think this is true to the some extent.However I don't believe the bag will give you the recoil effect of a tapered makiwara board.This recoil is one component of strenghtening the wrist,tendons,ect.


Yes, the bag offers a vastly different resistance. It dissipates force far more than a traditional makiwara would.


Even though I was 'made fun of ' somewhat in another forum for bringing up board breaking, I'm going to do it again!
I still say you can't punch through too many boards without hurting yourself, if you are not a strong puncher.I have broken 7 boards at once, with a reverse punch.I'm sure there are many who could do more, but I think this represents a decent punch none the less.
Just my opinions.:EG:

Yes indeed 7 boards break is a very powerful punch. Impressive.

[Baoquan]

On boxing vs. "other" MA punches.....

Yes, boxers are very good punchers, and there are very good punching techniques in boxing. Boxing has a very good body position for delivering power through your hands and for evading upper body attacks. Boxers tend to punch very accurately and effectively because they do A LOT of heavy contact training and sparring....but, when it comes down to it, boxing is a sport. (this is not a rip on boxing..i've been boxing since i was six, and i LOVE it...)

Boxing wil teach you wicked upper body skills..but by no means all of them. It is open to trapping, grappling, leg attacks...and so many others. IMHO, spending time at a good boxing gym will improve your sparring skills and power, mostly because of the training style...boxers dont punch air, or throw "arm" punches.

However, whatever you learn in a boxing gym MUST be considered in relation to all MA, and taken on board knowing what its strengths and weaknesses are.

Cheers

Baoquan.

[hand2handCombat]

tyson vs. royce?

i say itll be a challenge. tyson hits like a mthafcker iheard his hits were 800 lbs

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by KennethKu




With all due respect sir, straw Makiwara is obsolete.

Really?
In what way?


Originally posted by KennethKu

If anyone want a traditional Makiwara, he would most likely have to make his own. At least that is the case in the US and Canada. )

Oddly enough I have seen several adverts in the usual North American MA "rags" that are out as well as several MA stores for "traditional" Makiwara.

[fissure]

RyuShiKan, I seem to remember something about the original use of straw. I beleive I read that it was used due to it's natural ( all though minimal) antiseptic properties.Do you know anything of this?Or is my memory flawed.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by fissure

RyuShiKan, I seem to remember something about the original use of straw. I beleive I read that it was used due to it's natural ( all though minimal) antiseptic properties.Do you know anything of this?Or is my memory flawed.


I have heard this as well.

[fissure]

RyuShiKan, not on topic, but since I have your ear...
I'm currious as to the comparison between Asian and American matrial artists.On the whole is either better,more intense or more devoted?Does either take MA more seriously? Or is the situation in Japan the same as in the U.S. - some train till they drop, and other basically socialize?

[artful dodger]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fissure

[B]I think MA offers some of the most potentionally powerful punching tech. around.However many people get into the habit of hitting nothing but air, resulting in less than functonal tech.I mean this in the same way that when someone kicks a heavy bag with a front kick for the first time, often thier foot shoots 'up' the front of the bag instead of 'into' it.



It's all about conditioning at the end of the day. I read something recently about General Choi. Seems he was kicked out of a hotel for his habit of conditioning his right hand every morning. He only used his right as he was left handed and he needed to make sure it was good for calligraphy. Apparently he gets up early and bashes his hand against a concrete post - 100 forefists, 100 backfists , 100 knifehand strikes etc. for an hour. Apparently this particular time it sent vibrations through the motel, waking everyone up.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan


Really?
In what way?


Oddly enough I have seen several adverts in the usual North American MA "rags" that are out as well as several MA stores for "traditional" Makiwara.


If straw pad makiwara is still available commercially, then I was mistaken.

There is really no reason to use straw pad as shock absorber. It was the material of choice, by necessity back then. Today, there are many types of rubber foam pad that work as great shcok absorber. They offer much better shock absorbing properties. They do not wreck the skin off your knuckles. They are weather proof (if you have your makiwara outdoor). They are easy to clean too.

The resistance offered by the rather stiff makiwara pole can be duplicated in a wall-mounted spring supported rubber foam punching pad.

Of course, my personal preference is a canvas bag filled with 50lb of tiny pit gravels. :asian:

JMHO

In case it has skipped people's attention, I am reposting a link in my earlier post.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/101/28_makiwara.html

There is interesting explaination by the author regarding the drawback of makiwara.

I take exception to the author's assertion that conditioning the knuckles are for idiots. lol Unless he was referring to conditioning to the point of deformation , in which case, I would have to agree with him.

[fissure]

It's all about conditioning at the end of the day. I read something recently about General Choi. Seems he was kicked out of a hotel for his habit of conditioning his right hand every morning. He only used his right as he was left handed and he needed to make sure it was good for calligraphy. Apparently he gets up early and bashes his hand against a concrete post - 100 forefists, 100 backfists , 100 knifehand strikes etc. for an hour. Apparently this particular time it sent vibrations through the motel, waking everyone up.
An interesting story.However, I'm not sure why you qouted a passage from my post - if there is some correlation, I must confess I'm missing it.

[Carbon]

Bahoquan or whatever you said:

Boxing wil teach you wicked upper body skills..but by no means all of them. It is open to trapping, grappling, leg attacks...and so many others. IMHO, spending time at a good boxing gym will improve your sparring skills and power, mostly because of the training style...boxers dont punch air, or throw "arm" punches

I'm sorry to say that boxers do punch air. It's called shadow boxing. The point of this type of training in what I've been told is to increase speed, bag training is to increase power. You need both but overtraining in either can make you lose speed or lose power.

I also would like to see you trap a boxers arm. Ya its easy to say and its easy to talk about and don't say oh I have or anything like that because untill you have a video of a full contact video of you trapping then don't make up things.

I would also like to point out that its alot different when you have padding on and when you don't. If you don't have padding on and you dont' know what the other guy can do you aren't going to be saying to yourself, Oh I can trap his arm, apply a throw and then do a sumbission move. Most likely he will start swinging at your face as fast as he can and you either get knocked out or not get hit.

[Baoquan]

did u read all my post? I said boxing will teach some, but not all.

I know what shadow boxing is. It is not for speed...its is to concentrate on form. no one punches full speed shadow boxing. It starts to hurt ur shoulders/elbows too much. This, BTW, is not what ive been told, but what i've known from having boxers train at my house since i was a kid.

i have never trapped a boxer's arm. I dont trap. I am, as i said, largely a boxer. I have, however, had my arm trapped. It sucked.
It made, me realise (a) my defense was getting sloppy from too much bag work, (b) training all the time with gloves on closes up a whole lot of technique opportunities, and therefore , (c)boxing does not represent a complete set of upper body hand skills.

I am also aware of the differences created by wearing padding. I spar. A lot. without padding.

CHeers

Baoquan (or whatever).

[Matt Stone]

Better late than never.

Punching is the least understood, least practiced, and often times the worst technique in a MAist's arsenal...

I remember being in a TKD school, watching their 5th and 6th dans throwing punches that would have allowed their wrists to buckle and break had they impacted on anything more solid than a pillow... Sad sight, I must say.

First, the punching skills of boxing should not be under or over estimated. They do what they do. It is not the punch alone, but the application of it by a skilled boxer that allows the punch to be so effective. It is really no different in MA. But it must be kept in mind that their are several issues that cause the two training areas to be significantly different.

Boxing punches are trained with wrapped hands/wrists and while wearing gloves. The wrapping of the hand and wrist eliminates the need for the student to develop the proper wrist strength and alignment that will allow his punch to be strong without the wrap. Didn't Mike Tyson injure his hand in a street fight while he was still an unconvicted non-felon? Why? Because he has never had to learn to hold his fist in the correct position - it was held there with canvas wraps. The gloves also figure into the equation of an effective unprotected punch. The point of contact of the glove can be anywhere from 1/2 inch to 2 inches from the actual fist. This destroys the understanding of distance in the technique, and may well cause punches to miss (and the arm to be hyperextended) altogether, or they will be buried too deeply eliminating the "shock" effect of MA punches when they penetrate just below the surface of the target.

As for conditioning, the use of the makiwara is, as RyuShiKan has commented upthread, for developing strength, focus, etc. The folks that tell you to smack the post until the bones show are only displaying their very superficial understanding of martial conditioning.

In Yiliquan, we use both the makiwara and sandbags (as referred to by KennethKu). The makiwara is used first by pressing the fist against it, bending the makiwara post back. When this becomes more comfortable, light strikes are applied. The straw does not act as a "shock absorber," but as a slightly abrasive surface that will absorb moisture, blood, etc., while retaining its resilience over time. There is no need for "shock absorbtion," as the techniques are not applied at full strength until the hand has received a degree of conditioning to allow the knuckles to escape relatively unscathed. Over time, the light strikes become harder strikes, until one day the student is plowing through the post as if it weren't there.

The sandbag may be filled with different materials to provide different effects. In Iron Palm training, first grain, then sand, then steel shot is used to gradually build the hand's conditioning level.

However, the type of "strength" of technique that is developed from bag striking and post striking are very different, and neither should be neglected. If one form of training is more beneficial, I would have to say that the makiwara is more valuable for its whole body development (that bag striking typically does not convey).

Just my 2 yen.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

[fissure]

smack the post until the bones show
That gotta hurt! I don't think anyone is going to convince me to take it that far.


I remember being in a TKD school, watching their 5th and 6th dans throwing punches that would have allowed their wrists to buckle and break had they impacted on anything more solid than a pillow... Sad sight, I must say.
A typicall sight in most TKD dojang ( and I'm a TKD guy). I've only seen a handfull of TKD players with a decent punch, and I have to confess I got mine from years of Shotokan training.

[RyuShiKan]

The combination of several types of "hitting" equipment is good.
I use the Makiwara (old type), a speed bag, two "over and under" bags filled with 140lbs. of sand each, and a 350lbs ballistic canvas (Kevlar) heavy bag........which is great for weapons too.
Each tool focuses on a different aspect of hitting, heavy bag......obviously for overall strength in punches and kicks, speed bag for eye-hand coordination, "over and under" bags for foot/shin/palm/backfist/open hand strikes and makiwara for the associated muscles used in punching plus "kime" or focus.

[hand2handCombat]

I'm sorry to say that boxers do punch air. It's called shadow boxing. The point of this type of training in what I've been told is to increase speed, bag training is to increase power. You need both but overtraining in either can make you lose speed or lose power.

ya, ive noticed the result of that. i overstraind in power and lost speed. the best thing to do is speed, because its the power behind momentum

[Carbon]

Baoquan, If you want to know where I read about the increasing speeding using shadow boxing or pretty much just punching the air is from a book written by Bruce Lee.

He states in this book if I'm not mistaken that its neccesary if you want to increase speed that you need to test speed and to try and increase it without restraint.

This is why in most movies you'll see him doing warm up kicks and such and he will be doing them pretty fast. If you want me to get the name of the book and the exact quote and page I will.

Also I would like to know the name of the prized fighters that were in your house when you are growing up. I think its generalization to say just because you had a boxer living in your house when you were growing means that all his knowledge was the correct techniques.

Also if you would like to post a video of you sparring full contact I would love to see it.

Also the way you effectively prevent tendanitous in the elbows is by not fulling extending on your punches. Learning how to control the distance when you throw a punch without anyone or anything being hit is a good way to measure distance.

[Kenpo Wolf]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



First, the punching skills of boxing should not be under or over estimated. They do what they do. It is not the punch alone, but the application of it by a skilled boxer that allows the punch to be so effective. It is really no different in MA. But it must be kept in mind that their are several issues that cause the two training areas to be significantly different.

Boxing punches are trained with wrapped hands/wrists and while wearing gloves. The wrapping of the hand and wrist eliminates the need for the student to develop the proper wrist strength and alignment that will allow his punch to be strong without the wrap. Didn't Mike Tyson injure his hand in a street fight while he was still an unconvicted non-felon? Why? Because he has never had to learn to hold his fist in the correct position - it was held there with canvas wraps. The gloves also figure into the equation of an effective unprotected punch. The point of contact of the glove can be anywhere from 1/2 inch to 2 inches from the actual fist. This destroys the understanding of distance in the technique, and may well cause punches to miss (and the arm to be hyperextended) altogether, or they will be buried too deeply eliminating the "shock" effect of MA punches when they penetrate just below the surface of the target.



Being a former boxer myself, I very much agree with Yiliquan1. When I began kenpo, I found that my punches were not effective as I thought them to be due to a poor fist and the pulling of the punch itself.

[GouRonin]

I think that while there are people who are truly fast I also think that speed can be learned or developed and is really a product of proper body mechanics IMHO.

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by GouRonin

I think that while there are people who are truly fast I also think that speed can be learned or developed and is really a product of proper body mechanics IMHO.

I completely agree!!
With proper body mechanics and proper training with technique, "perfection" as far as punches go can be achieved.

7sm

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by GouRonin

I think that while there are people who are truly fast I also think that speed can be learned or developed and is really a product of proper body mechanics IMHO.

I don't mean to sound contradictory here, but Gou's comment is overly simplistic...

All good technique stems from proper body mechanics... Power, speed, timing, etc., are all the result of proper body coordination.

Gou is correct in his comment, but it could have been worded a bit differently.

Just my BS 2 yen...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1


Gou is correct in his comment, but it could have been worded a bit differently.


Lets stay on topic here, if his comment was correct, we don't need to correct his wording. This just brings about arguments, something we all can do without, right ?

7sm

[chufeng]

A little insight from one who lived with boxers...

!) When doing speed bag or heavy bag work the boxer wears a very thin leather glove...so his distance to target is not "off" secondary to boxing gloves...

2) The boxing glove does require that the boxer adjust his punch in the ring to deliver appropriate shock (adjusts distance)...For those that DO NOT adjust distance, the force is dissipated before shock is developed...this is what separates the experienced form the inexperienced boxer. (aside from ring generalmanship)

3) Both of my brothers were regional champions for 10 years...one went to the nationals twice...one fought for the USA overseas (France and Denmark) My father went on several overseas clinics to teach boxing in Africa and the Middle East (he went as a representative of the United States with full diplomatic privelege).

4) I witnessed my brother literally split the face of a guy who outweighed him by at least 100 pounds...the guy went over a railing in a bar and did not get up...WHY did my brother hit this guy so hard? Because he was threatening my other nrother who was one weight class below him...Do Not Underestimate the punching power of a "well-trained" boxer.

5) and yes, I can still kick his ass ;) He is my little brother, after all.


:asian:
chufeng

[RyuShiKan]

My Grandfather fought in the Golden Gloves and did rather well from what I was told. He grew up in the Hispanic part of K.C. known as Armodale and being white had plenty of opportunity to "work-out".
I originally started off in a kick boxing style of Karate and after a few months asked my grandfather if he could show me some "moves" ..........................he handed me my ass in about a nano second.

[Carbon]

People always bring size into consideration when you are talking about fighting.

Yes this guy could of been 100 lbs. heavier then your brother but he could also be 2 inches shorter than your brother and be extremely obese.

I know that I may talk alot about Bruce Lee but to me he was a very amazing person and I bet that his size didn't matter and that he could probably knock you out anytime he felt like it.

I was trying to get a book The Tao of Jeet Kune Do but couldn't find it at half priced book stores and another one where he wrote about training and health. I was interested in reading the comments he made about speed training.

[Damian Mavis]

Carbon, Carbon, Carbon....sigh

Its not nice when your in a debate with someone to demand they tell you what prize fighters lived in their house or you want visual proof or their worthiness in the form of videos. Why not give them the benefit of the doubt? It still amazes me that a guy who gets all his info out of books is so opinionated while the rest of us are out there bleeding and sweating to discover the truth for ouselves. When you disagree with people here try not to act like they are liars MKAY? And telling people that Bruce Lee could easily knock them out is annoying as hell.

As for boxing... I box, and every boxer I know avoids getting into a street fight like the plague because and I quote "its so damn easy with our technique to break our hands" What he was referring to was the fact that boxers have excellent technique, so good that when the whole body is behind their punch like it is supposed to be it is easier to break on a hard surface.

I use to train by punching walls..... it seemed fine until I started boxing, theres no way in hell I'd ever throw a "proper" right cross at a wall. My hand would most certainly break.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

First, the punching skills of boxing should not be under or over estimated. They do what they do. It is not the punch alone, but the application of it by a skilled boxer that allows the punch to be so effective. It is really no different in MA. But it must be kept in mind that their are several issues that cause the two training areas to be significantly different.

Boxing punches are trained with wrapped hands/wrists and while wearing gloves. The wrapping of the hand and wrist eliminates the need for the student to develop the proper wrist strength and alignment that will allow his punch to be strong without the wrap. Didn't Mike Tyson injure his hand in a street fight while he was still an unconvicted non-felon? Why? Because he has never had to learn to hold his fist in the correct position - it was held there with canvas wraps. The gloves also figure into the equation of an effective unprotected punch. The point of contact of the glove can be anywhere from 1/2 inch to 2 inches from the actual fist. This destroys the understanding of distance in the technique, and may well cause punches to miss (and the arm to be hyperextended) altogether, or they will be buried too deeply eliminating the "shock" effect of MA punches when they penetrate just below the surface of the target.

I would reiterate what I said previously...

1) Wrapped hands do not allow for the proper strengthening that occurs from MA training.

2) Regular boxing gloves will throw off the distance of a punch, disallowing the transfer of shock desired in a MA punch.

This having been said, I would quote Chufeng's comments to reinforce the messages being sent here...


Do Not Underestimate the punching power of a "well-trained" boxer.

And


...this is what separates the experienced form the inexperienced boxer.

As I stated at the beginning of my post before, and at the beginning of the quote of my own post above, "the punching skills of boxing should not be under or over estimated. They do what they do. It is not the punch alone, but the application of it by a skilled boxer that allows the punch to be so effective."

Boxing is as much a martial art as judo, iaido, Shaolin chuan-fa, tae kwon do, pankration or anything else... It must always be understood that our comments, as generalized as they are, are meant to be applied to the rank and file, the unwashed masses, not the exceptional individuals that rise out of the morass of mediocrity to go beyond the limitations of their environments to develop truly noteworthy skills.

Just my opinions, for what they are worth...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

Lets stay on topic here, if his comment was correct, we don't need to correct his wording. This just brings about arguments, something we all can do without, right ?

7sm

Okay, then, his comment was inaccurate though not incorrect.

It is inaccurate to say


I think that while there are people who are truly fast I also think that speed can be learned or developed and is really a product of proper body mechanics IMHO.

It is more accurate to say that speed, power and timing can be learned or developed and are a product of proper body mechanics.

Correcting wording only brings about arguments if people take the correction personally and are unable to see the legitimacy in making sure the intentions and ideas are fully explained and conveyed to the readers... Perhaps what is being said is "understood" on some other level, but given the nature of electronic communication media, it is best to be sure that you write exactly what you mean to say...

:asian:

[chufeng]

Carbon,

I witnessed the event I described....the guy was NOT short and FAT...

He was taller and heavier and NOTORIOUS for his street fighting skill...that is why John, my brother, stepped in...Drew would have had his hands full at 135 pounds (Drew was a really nice guy and probably would have been sucker punched before he realized the danger he was in)...John on the other hand LIKED to fight...

John warned the guy to back off...the guy said "or what?"
So John showed him...

My story is real...NOT hypothetical...so stop trying to back up your argument with imaginings.

Not all boxers can fight like John...
Some boxers may break their hands, BUT...not all boxers will break their hands when they hit you, either...

Boxers at Dad's gym were required to do push ups on their knuckles...and the wraps used in ameteur training really do NOT provide any protection for the wrist...just keeps the knuckles from getting scraped up (For competition they would reinforce the wrap with athletic tape...end result was like a cast)...Dad's boxers did not use a lot of "looping" punches (with the exception of the uppercut)...he emphasized "Straight" punches and lots of body shots.

:asian:
chufeng

[Carbon]

I was not saying that your story wasn't true. I was just giving a situation where size could be different in two fighters but the outcome shouldn't be affected by it.

Now Daman Mavis lol, I still remember you yes. You say that I only read books? Well I'm sorry to say but books are where information is provided. I never said, "And telling people that Bruce Lee could easily knock them out is annoying as hell."

I don't know where you got the impression that I said Bruce Lee could knock you out. I was backing up my previous statement that size isn't always a factor in a fight.

Then went on to say that Bruce Lee wasn't a very big man but could probably knock you out.

Training by punching walls? You do realize that the bones in the human body already possess the strength to endure punches and kicks right? There is no need to try and strengthen bones.

Also I was just asking for video's. I mean the guy sounds like an extremely well fighter and I am always looking for videos of training and fighting and such.

And when I doubt someone on here you may say oh you haven't ever done that so how do you know its not true blah blah.

In a real situation trapping is worthless IMHO. If you want to discuss this I'll be glad to, but I am not trying to argue and a forum is for debate :) in certain situations I know.

[Bod]

Carbon - you can't go about quoting Bruce Lee as gospel and then say that trapping in real situations is worthless.


You do realize that the bones in the human body already possess the strength to endure punches and kicks right?

What is that supposed to mean? Send in a video of you being kicked by a mule, in every bone in your body and I'll believe it.

No, I'm not calling you a liar. I believe you are a skilled fighter, and I wan't to learn from you.

[fissure]

I believe you are a skilled fighter, and I wan't to learn from you.
Why would you assume that carbon, me or anyone else her is a skilled fighter based apon internet ramblings?:D

[Damian Mavis]

Carbon, I didnt think any of your comments were directed at me, whether about Bruce Lee or trapping or anything else. But reading your posts I realised that you have a hard time getting your point across without sarcasm and insults and I'm just telling you that people would probably be more open minded if every post you made didn't come with a barb of some kind.

And I was just reminding you that people are also going to have a hard time respecting your opinion when your entire knowledge base is from reading books...... you debate on a martial arts forum when you dont actually TAKE martial arts. But gosh darn it youve read some books! Right away people that are busy enduring the pain of rigorous martial arts training and learning the "truths" of combat the hard way are going to have a hard time taking your opinion seriously. All I'm saying is with your "background" in the arts you might want to be a little more amiable to other posters, try to have discussions without insinuating people are liars, I see you do that alot...all you've got to do is change the tone of your posts a little and you'll probably have better discussions and more people might even agree with you.

P.S. I hit hard surfaces like walls to toughen my skin and knuckles by building calluses and conditioning them to not feel pain as much, not to "strengthen" bone....... this is an ages old process and is not particularly healthy but does toughen your hands and even makes them feel like a more solid object. I wish I could remember the famous kung fu guys name that did that kind of training all his life... but now his hands look horrible but if he lightly "taps" you on the head it feels like you just got bonked with a steel bar. This is a similar process that Muay Thai practitioners use to toughen their shins so they can take full contact kicks shin on shin.


Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

maybe u guys might disagree but i think most MA's punches are terrible. why?becasue they are more technique oriented. im gonna cross train in western boxing soon becasue i suck at punchin. what u guys think?

I fully support your journey into boxing. I've spent time with Jim Tunney (Gene Tunney's grandson), as well as time with Benny "The Jet" Urquidez, and many aspects of punching like a boxer only added to my understanding of punching. Interestingly enough, Kenpo instructors I've done extensive time with...Albert Cornejo, Frank Trejo, Bryan Hawkins and Mike Pick, have all exposed me to Ed Parker's American Kenpo while showing me some very similiar wrist and hand structures that are in American Boxing. Make no mistake, Ed Parker trained as a boxer when he was young. Boxing is not the only way, but it is part of our way.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

[chufeng]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

[. I wish I could remember the famous kung fu guys name that did that kind of training all his life... but now his hands look horrible but if he lightly "taps" you on the head it feels like you just got bonked with a steel bar. This is a similar process that Muay Thai practitioners use to toughen their shins so they can take full contact kicks shin on shin.


Damian Mavis
Honour TKD [/B]

Pan Shin Fu
Lives in Vancouver, B.C., currently.

[Damian Mavis]

Thankyou very much!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Carbon]

I would like to point out that the intention of my posts are not to call anyone a liar.

You say that have to be a MAist to actually fight? I mean what kind of ignorance is that? You say you work to find the truth about MA but what do you know about my life?

No I don't take MA but does that mean that I can't make educated decisions about the laws of physics.

Bod what I meant was that the way your body is built it is already capable of withstanding a punch that you throw or a kick that you throw.

Also Damian Mavis you should read an interesting article in Black Belt magazine where a MAist went to train in Thailand and was there to disprove all of the myths of them toughening their shins and how they cut the nerve endings out of their shins so they don't feel pain. I am not sure which article it is but I have it laying around here somewhere.

And if deadening the nerve endings in your hand is what you call training then thats fine. I just wouldn't reccomend it.

And me quoting Bruce Lee as a bible, I'm sorry no. I don't want to sound rude and I may be sounding rude but I don't know any other way to put it when I said that was my opinion and you are here telling me that my opinion is wrong?

Yes, I don't think trapping is effective in real situations sorry I haven't had a 26 year practioner to test this on, sorry I'm not an expert full contact fighter so I can prove or disprove anything I say.

Also fissure he said that he spars full contact all the time and that his application of fighting was effective, thats all I meant by skilled fighter ;)

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
It is more accurate to say that speed, power and timing can be learned or developed and are a product of proper body mechanics...

No it isn't. Maybe in your opinion. Most speed is really the product of proper mechanics. Speed in itself is really an illusion because mechanics allow for it to occur in a certain manner. There are people who are generally faster than others but for the most part most people are not faster than others. Just more mechanically sound.


Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Correcting wording only brings about arguments if people take the correction personally and are unable to see the legitimacy in making sure the intentions and ideas are fully explained and conveyed to the readers... Perhaps what is being said is "understood" on some other level, but given the nature of electronic communication media, it is best to be sure that you write exactly what you mean to say...

Actually I was going to chew your @ss out for correcting me because I said what I wanted to say. You just didn't agree with my version. But then you said this earlier:


Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Boxing is as much a martial art as judo, iaido, Shaolin chuan-fa, tae kwon do, pankration or anything else...

So I won't. I appreciate this comment.

[Damian Mavis]

Carbon,

"You say that have to be a MAist to actually fight? "

No no not at all, I never said that. Plenty of people fight with no training and plenty win that fight.


"disprove all of the myths of them toughening their shins and how they cut the nerve endings out of their shins so they don't feel pain"

You dont really understand what I mean. What you state above is insane (cutting nerve endings, I've never heard of that myth), what I'm talking about is how I've been kicking the banana bag (a very hard punching bag that goes from the floor to the ceiling) for the past year and a half at Thai boxing and I no longer have the same sensations of pain when I kick shin on shin. Methods like this toughen your shins to the point were they become usable weapons and blocking tools. When I first joined I blocked a shin kick with my shin and fell over in agony...couldnt even walk for 5 minutes. Now I block the same kick with little to no pain felt. Now I'm telling you that Muay Thai conditions their shins to not feel as much pain...its a simple truth but you seem baffled by it. You cannot do what they do in the ring with their shins without conditioning them, even if the conditioning is just repreatedly kicking a hard punching bag with your shin for 3 years. Knock your shin lightly against a hard surface like a table and tell me after feeling that pain what you think it would be like if someone took a swing with a baseball bat at your shin. That is what its like in Muay Thai.

"And if deadening the nerve endings in your hand is what you call training then thats fine. I just wouldn't reccomend it"

Me neither, I started by punching the yellow pages phone book and worked my way up to hard surfaces like wood, brick and walls etc. I did that for a long time until I found out that it could cause arthritis when I was older and I didn't think having fists that were like rocks to knock someone out was worth the pain down the road so I stopped.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[fissure]

Too Carbon;
1: I wasn't directing my comment to you. I was refering to Bod's comment about you:
No, I'm not calling you a liar. I believe you are a skilled fighter, and I wan't to learn from you.
hence me responce to Bod:
Why would you assume that carbon, me or anyone else her is a skilled fighter based apon internet ramblings?
2: posted by you:
You say that have to be a MAist to actually fight? I mean what kind of ignorance is that? You say you work to find the truth about MA but what do you know about my life?
Matrial Arts is the practice of warfare.If you train to fight (even if it is outside of traditional dojo), then you are fullfilling this definition.
3:I believe Damian's fustraton comes from the fact that you are telling him, me and many others who have spent a life time training, that what you have read in books is of equal importance as our actuall experience.This comes across as a little naive, and arrogant.
Theory is all well and good - until someone smacks you in the head!:EG:

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by chufeng

Pan Shin Fu
Lives in Vancouver, B.C., currently.

Yes, he was featured in a documentary. His knuckles look horrible. Totally scarred with calluses. These are not your typical rough patch of skin. It looks like 4 patches of horn like dead tissue on each hand. He hits his knuckles on an iron plate several hundred times daily.

I don't think the deformation is a worthy tradeoff . You can develope an IronPlam like forefist without going to such extreme.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by GouRonin

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
It is more accurate to say that speed, power and timing can be learned or developed and are a product of proper body mechanics...

[No it isn't. Maybe in your opinion. Most speed is really the product of proper mechanics. Speed in itself is really an illusion because mechanics allow for it to occur in a certain manner. There are people who are generally faster than others but for the most part most people are not faster than others. Just more mechanically sound.

In my opinion there is training technique speed and training reaction speed (both of which are sound principles), but the idea of training to be "faster" than your opponent is impossible. Training timing, to move at the right moment and to strike the opponent at the correct instant are much more sound principles (especially since, at 34, I will run a bigger risk of being slower than someone younger than me, even more so as I age further...).

If I offended you, I apologize. That was not my intent. I am just a stickler for how things are said - probably comes from my job (I am a military paralegal, and in my work how things are said is usually more important that what is being said ;) Damn lawyers!). Given that we write things here, and then others read them, often misinterpreting what we originally intended, I am just overly picky about making sure every possible misinterpretation is eliminated before I hit "Submit Reply."

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

[Carbon]

A lifetime of training? Just exactly how old are you?

Also I don't want to sound like I know everything but what is the exact application of blocking a shin strike with your shin?

The point of attack that I know of from a Muay Thai fighter using his shin is the side of the neck, the side of the torso, or the higher part of the side of the knee. I am not sure which part you are comparing the hardness of these body parts but they are no where near as hard as the shin.

No I am not baffled by the conditioning of bones and yes bones are what take the actual shock of a hit, or the muscle. When you say you no longer have sensations in your shin that you did before? Maybe you grew more muslce on your shin I don't know, but the loss of nerve endings or sensations in any part of your body isn't a good sign.

[7starmantis]

Very, very true. Nerve endings are our friends. We don't want to loose them. Pain tells you how hard you are hitting, or how hard you have been hit. Without that I believe you lack a great tool in judging your infraction.


JMHO


7sm

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
In my opinion the idea of training to be "faster" than your opponent is impossible.

If we both throw a right punch but you throw it by taking your fist behind your head then forward for more power but I throw it right from my point or origin. I will always contact first. Thus I have trained to be faster.

[7starmantis]

Exactly!!

:asian: :asian: :asian:

[fissure]

Carbon, I'm having a hard time trying to figure out who your posts are directed at.If you qoute the statement you are responding to, it would avoid confusion.
I asume that
A lifetime of training? Just exactly how old are you? is directed to me, as I don't see another post with this question in it.I'm 31. I have been training in MA for over 23 years.Many here have been studing longer I'm sure.
As to the rest of your post, it must be directed to Damian....I guess.

[Carbon]

Lol, not to get off topic, but I don't know how many read the huge posts me and Damian had awhile back that was basically arguing about my maturity level and my applicable ability to apply what I say in real life.

Yes, most of my posts are directed towards damian. I'll try to do quotes I see the value of them, but I have ideas in my head to rebuttle to other posts and I usually want to get it down before I forget it.

[chufeng]

Carbon said:

"but I have ideas in my head to rebuttle to other posts and I usually want to get it down before I forget it."

In other words...your ideas about any given martial technique are fleeting...It only makes sense if you spend time thinking about it...

Too bad, you will die before you figure out what a REAL martial artist is about to do to you...No time to think... just flow with the events as they unfold...

That is where YEARS of experience come into play...that is not something learned in a book...

No argument....just fact.

:asian:
chufeng

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by GouRonin



If we both throw a right punch but you throw it by taking your fist behind your head then forward for more power but I throw it right from my point or origin. I will always contact first. Thus I have trained to be faster.

Speed is a perception. One person's punch thrown from his "point of origin" and yours thrown from your "point of origin" depart nearly simultaneously. Which one is faster? The one that lands first? It will certainly seem so. However it is possible for person A to throw his short distance technique before person B, but for person B's strike to land first depending on when during his opponent's movement he throws it...

In general your comment seems to support the idea that you train to be faster, but given the relativity of speed, your technique is simply displaying superior timing - yours covers a shorter distance, can leave after the opponent's technique leaves, and will likely land first... Timing, not speed.

Just my 2 yen opinion...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

[Bod]

fissure wrote

Why would you assume that carbon, me or anyone else her is a skilled fighter based apon internet ramblings?

To my eternal shame I was being deeply sarcastic. The reasoning behind this was that carbon had posted:

I also would like to see you trap a boxers arm. Ya its easy to say and its easy to talk about and don't say oh I have or anything like that because untill you have a video of a full contact video of you trapping then don't make up things.

Later he backpedalled with:

Also I was just asking for video's. I mean the guy sounds like an extremely well fighter and I am always looking for videos of training and fighting and such.

My comment:


Send in a video of you being kicked by a mule, in every bone in your body and I'll believe it.
No, I'm not calling you a liar. I believe you are a skilled fighter, and I wan't to learn from you.

was simply aping his style.

OK. Yiliquan said:

In general your comment seems to support the idea that you train to be faster, but given the relativity of speed, your technique is simply displaying superior timing - yours covers a shorter distance, can leave after the opponent's technique leaves, and will likely land first... Timing, not speed.

Don't forget to add feeling, and offbalancing. Feeling your opponent's movements and using blocks etc. which unbalance him, makes it appear to him that you are moving much faster as he is caught up by the inevitability of your techniques. Also those techniques which seem to come out of nowhere seem quick to the guy on the receiving end.

That's one of the more beautiful things about traditional kung-fu as I know it.

[fissure]

Bod:
To my eternal shame I was being deeply sarcastic
Now I feel dumb.I posted on another thread, with a response I thought was "driiping" in sarcasm.I was apparently completely wrong!:)

[KennethKu]

Setting aside point sparring and friendly sparring, speed and timing alone is insufficient, unless the strike landed can deliver the damage to the target. This is obvious. But sometimes there is an inevitable trade off between speed and power.

[Kirk]

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/evolution.html

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Speed is a perception. Timing, not speed.

Which is what i have been sayng all along except that for some unknown reason you can't seem to grasp that.
:confused:

[Damian Mavis]

"Also I don't want to sound like I know everything but what is the exact application of blocking a shin strike with your shin?

The point of attack that I know of from a Muay Thai fighter using his shin is the side of the neck, the side of the torso, or the higher part of the side of the knee. I am not sure which part you are comparing the hardness of these body parts but they are no where near as hard as the shin."

Carbon, I think you are confused by my statement "I blocked a shin kick with my shin". What that means is I blocked a kick that was using the shin as the attacking tool with my shin as the blocking tool. Shin kick = kick with the shin. Sorry you didnt know that. I really dont understand what you mean by me comparing the hardness of those other body parts to the shin as I never did any such comparison.

You obviously know nothing about Muay Thai which flabbergasts me because you are willing to argue about it like you actually do. The primary blocking technique in Muay Thai is called the shield....The shield is when you raise your leg to an appropriate height to block the incoming kick with your shin. That is the exact application of blocking a shin kick with your shin.

"No I am not baffled by the conditioning of bones and yes bones are what take the actual shock of a hit, or the muscle. When you say you no longer have sensations in your shin that you did before? Maybe you grew more muslce on your shin I don't know, but the loss of nerve endings or sensations in any part of your body isn't a good sign."

No, I did not grow more muscle than I did before...why are you guessing here? This is common knowledge to anyone that knows anything about Muay Thai. If you dont know or understand just go read a book about it since thats what your good at. I know at this point I'm getting snippy but your starting to tick me off with your guesses and debates on something I'm actually doing every day for 3 hours.

As for whether losing sensation in your shins is a bad sign that has nothing to do with the fact that ALL Thai boxers go through this process of losing sensation in their shins. I already gave you the "bump your shin on a table edge example" so you've got to try to understand that Thai boxers CAN NOT block full contact kicks with their shin if they have full use of the feeling in their shins. I stopped conditioning my fists cause I knew it would cause problems down the road, my shins I'm not so sure will bother me when I'm older. Keep in mind that there are dumb ways to condition your shins that cause permanent damage and pain and there are safe ways that most Thai boxers use like the banana bag.

Before you reply yet again with all kinds of guesses and opinions just think for a sec.....is it possible people that actually train in the arts you read about might know more than you?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Carbon]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

"Also I don't want to sound like I know everything but what is the exact application of blocking a shin strike with your shin?

The point of attack that I know of from a Muay Thai fighter using his shin is the side of the neck, the side of the torso, or the higher part of the side of the knee. I am not sure which part you are comparing the hardness of these body parts but they are no where near as hard as the shin."

Carbon, I think you are confused by my statement "I blocked a shin kick with my shin". What that means is I blocked a kick that was using the shin as the attacking tool with my shin as the blocking tool. Shin kick = kick with the shin. Sorry you didnt know that. I really dont understand what you mean by me comparing the hardness of those other body parts to the shin as I never did any such comparison.[

I don't know if your an Anatomy expert or anything but the shin is refered to as The Tibia. Meaning it covers the front of your lower leg. When you raise your leg to "shield" It doesn't contact The Tibia it hits the side of your calf muslce. You condition your Calf to take the blows and you condition your shin to give blows. What is actually being condition'd though is not the Shin Bone its the muslce that covers it.

You obviously know nothing about Muay Thai which flabbergasts me because you are willing to argue about it like you actually do. The primary blocking technique in Muay Thai is called the shield....The shield is when you raise your leg to an appropriate height to block the incoming kick with your shin. That is the exact application of blocking a shin kick with your shin.


Originally posted by Damian Mavis "No I am not baffled by the conditioning of bones and yes bones are what take the actual shock of a hit, or the muscle. When you say you no longer have sensations in your shin that you did before? Maybe you grew more muslce on your shin I don't know, but the loss of nerve endings or sensations in any part of your body isn't a good sign."

No, I did not grow more muscle than I did before...why are you guessing here? This is common knowledge to anyone that knows anything about Muay Thai. If you dont know or understand just go read a book about it since thats what your good at. I know at this point I'm getting snippy but your starting to tick me off with your guesses and debates on something I'm actually doing every day for 3 hours.[/B]

Lol, your putting me down for reading? I'm sorry but are there any Muay Thai schools where I live? No, do you have the money to pay for it? No can you add an extra 3 hours to my day to allow me to practice it? No, then shut up. You are talking like I have no life and I don't do anything when you don't know me and you don't know what my life consists of. You accuse me of assumption and that I tick you off. Well you want to know what ticks me off? People like you that think they are better than someone else just because they aren't as knowledgable.

Not everyone can be an expert in every MA and not everyone has the opportunities that other people have to participate in out of school activites. So until you understand that not everyone's life is the exact same as yours you really need to shut up and mind your own business instead of trying to stalk people on the threads just to try and disagree.


Originally posted by Damian Mavis As for whether losing sensation in your shins is a bad sign that has nothing to do with the fact that ALL Thai boxers go through this process of losing sensation in their shins.[/B]

I forgot! You know every Thai Boxer in the world. Ahh yes thats right you know everything, my mistake.


Originally posted by Damian Mavis Before you reply yet again with all kinds of guesses and opinions just think for a sec.....is it possible people that actually train in the arts you read about might know more than you?[/B]

I guess you missed the post where I said I don't know everything or are you just trying to put words in my mouth to make yourself look smarter? Its the same thing when you butt'd into the conversation on the Backyard martial arts thread and started a huge argument there, but got proven wrong but were to afraid to admit it. Yes have I been wrong? Duh, everyone's wrong and I don't care to make mistakes, but just because I disagree with someone because I don't understand a concept they are trying to get across doesn't make me a bad person its called I'm trying to learn something new, but since you never graduated from highschool I guess this would be something out of your grasp.

Lol putting me down for reading? I mean come on?

[Cthulhu]

Mod. Note

Everyone,
Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Cthulhu
-MT Mod.-

[Damian Mavis]

OH MY GOD......

Ok you are a rude young boy, but I'll continue debating you anyways without calling you any names.

"just because I disagree with someone because I don't understand a concept they are trying to get across doesn't make me a bad person its called I'm trying to learn something new, but since you never graduated from highschool I guess this would be something out of your grasp"

I'm an extremely helpful person so if your asking for clarity or help on understanding a technique then I will be the first to try to help you but that is totally NOT what you are doing and as proof I quote the following.

" I don't know if your an Anatomy expert or anything but the shin is refered to as The Tibia. Meaning it covers the front of your lower leg. When you raise your leg to "shield" It doesn't contact The Tibia it hits the side of your calf muslce. You condition your Calf to take the blows and you condition your shin to give blows. What is actually being condition'd though is not the Shin Bone its the muslce that covers it."

Ok you just pulled that statement out of your butt. And on top of that you are trying to pass it off as fact. Carbon....you are not asking for clarity here! YOU ARE TELLING ME LIES THAT YOU MADE UP ABOUT A MARTIAL ART I TRAIN IN JUST BECAUSE YOU LIKE TO ARGUE AND ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THE TRUTH ABOUT HOW A TECHNIQUE IS PERFORMED! whew.....think my throat is sore.

Carbon, for the love of god...... "When you raise your leg to "shield" It doesn't contact The Tibia it hits the side of your calf muslce" NO it doesn't. How can I say this plainly, your wrong? Your wrong, your wrong, your FREAKING wrong! When a Muay Thai practitioner "shields" he raises his foot off the ground and ANGLES his foot outward, toes UP so the BONE of the shin is receiving the full blow of the incoming kick. The muscle should not be touched at all, if the muscle is hit chances are you were just disabled and are out of the fight. THIS IS NOT MY OPINION, this is proper Muay Thai technique omg WORLDWIDE. So you do not condition the muscle, you do infact condition the bone alright?! Why on earth would you even dare to state that garbage about receiving the blow on the calf muscle? And act like I don't understand the proper tool I'm using when I fight in the ring? I just don't get you, you heard a few tips like raising the leg and shielding and right away make an opinion that you are shielding with the muscle and then act like I'm misinformed or just plain stupid I guess about what I'm actually doing in the ring. I am dying to understand you!

No I am not criticising you for reading, I'm sorry you can't train in whatever it is you want to train in, but DO NOT pretend you are asking for help when you are TELLING people crap about their arts and arguing with them that it is true when it isnt even close to reality! Don't you dare feel sorry for yourself and try to portray yourself as a victim! You start these ridiculous arguments with your intense opinions that are not always wrong but often insulting. But in this particlular case DEAD WRONG.

I don't think I'm better than you because I have more knowledge. Like i said I would be the first to help you but you arent asking for help! Your slingning out ridiculous facts and then arguing their validity and even if I tell you they are wrong you say something ridiculous like "I forgot! You know every Thai Boxer in the world. Ahh yes thats right you know everything, my mistake" For crying out loud I have to know every Thai boxer alive to know how the art is taught worldwide? I'm not taking a Muay Thai offshoot or wierd hybrid. I'm taking official Muay Thai that they use in the ring in Thailand, sheesh. Maybe you have a difficult time understanding but when you study an art (by actually taking it) you learn all about it, eventually. No opinions, no guesses, just cold hard knowledge and facts.

Why are you telling me to shut up and I didn't graduate from highschool? And FYI I posted on those other threads before you, I'm not stalking you omg.

Look, calm down... stop acting like a fool (because I'm sure you are not). If you really seek information and good discussions you will change your tone....somehow I have a feeling the comeback to this post won't be any different than your others but I'm imploring you to change.

And dont stop reading, reading is good...but acting outrageous is not.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Cthulhu]

Mod. Note

Keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Cthulhu
-MT Mod.-

[Carbon]

Its funny to see a grown man start yelling at a kid because he disagreed with him lol.

Talk about you having a lack of self control. How could you ever teach a student anything when he would be to afraid to ask a question without you blowing up in his face.

I'm not sure how much education you have but.....there is a muscle that covers your shin. A muscle covers every part of your body with maybe the exception of your skull, your armpit and your fragile parts like fingers and toes.

Why do you think its so much easier to break a toe or a finger when compared to breaking your femer?

Maybe its because you have so much muscle protecting your main area's of your body so they don't get injuried. AKA there is a muscle that covers your shin lol. I can't believe you said there wasn't a muscle there lol lol.

[Carbon]

Also you do realize by saying to calm down and to not act outrageous is a contradiction to what your doing right now. Its funny how such an "educated" person like yourself can't see that you are a hypocrit and all you do is try to control and manipulate people.

Oh, and I don't mean to question the authenticity of your training but how can you absolutely sure that what you are learning is what they teach in the Thai boxing gyms?

[Damian Mavis]

Well at least your tone has changed a little if not the insults. Guess its something. I was hoping you'd pick up on my humor when I followed my capital letters with "whew.....think my throat is sore"

You were talking about your calf muscle being used in the shield and you know it. And that is completely wrong.

I'll respond to just one thing from your reply.

"Oh, and I don't mean to question the authenticity of your training but how can you absolutely sure that what you are learning is what they teach in the Thai boxing gyms?"

We travel to Thailand yearly and train at several different Muay Thai gyms.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Bob Hubbard]

Guys, take the -personal differences- to either PM or Email and please stick to the technical side of things. The good stuffs getting lost in the BS.


Thank You

[Marginal]

Originally posted by Carbon


I'm not sure how much education you have but.....there is a muscle that covers your shin. A muscle covers every part of your body with maybe the exception of your skull, your armpit and your fragile parts like fingers and toes.
Feel your shin along the inner side along the bone. There may be muscle there, but it's barely present. On the outer side of the shin, there is a muscle, but it does little to protect your shin from injury against a hit without conditioning. I know this from painful experience when I caught a heel on my shin during sparring. Had a knot the size of an egg on my shin half an hour after class, and I couldn't put weight on that leg. The muscle didn't help for beans.

That aside, just check the relative muscle density of any given spot on your body. Your ribs may have some muscle on them, but a shot to the floating ribs is going to hurt, mainly because there's not enough muscle, or support to absorb the shock of a strike. That's why pressure points like the solar plexus etc are effective. Lotsa nerves, no real good way to protect them with muscle alone.

[chufeng]

Actually the ribs do provide good protection to the organs behind them due to their springy nature...Yes a well trained artist can learn to overcome that with shocking strike techniques...but then the body wasn't built for that...when someone gets a broken rib from whatever kind of trauma, think about what would have happened to the underlying organs if the ribs hadn't absorbed the majority of that force. The ribs are connected to the sternum by a thick network of cartilage.

The floating rib is not connected to the sternum, hence the term "floating" rib...Getting struck with any force in the floating rib could potentially cause significant internal damage as the tip of the rib is rapidly displaced into the softer organs underneath.

The shaft of the tibia, medially, is only covered by skin, subcutaneous tissue, and periosteum...the muscle that some people can develop to a point where it slightly overlaps the anterior aspect of the "shin" originates lateral to the tibia, but the bone is still unprotected medially. If one were to receive a "shin-kick" to the muscle that lies lateral to the tibia, the muscle would sustain a crushing type injury as it's pinched between the two tibias (the kicker's and the defender's).

:asian:
chufeng

[Damian Mavis]

Thankyou Doctor Chufeng! haha

"The shaft of the tibia, medially, is only covered by skin, subcutaneous tissue, and periosteum...the muscle that some people can develop to a point where it slightly overlaps the anterior aspect of the "shin" originates lateral to the tibia, but the bone is still unprotected medially"

That "shaft" of the tibia is the striking tool and the blocking tool in Muay Thai. Bone on bone.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[KennethKu]

MT has been around for a long time. Is there any reported medical case of the side effect of shin conditioning?

[Damian Mavis]

I know that if you condition your shins the stupid way you have problems down the road, I've never heard of any problems associated with kicking the banana bag to condition your shins though.

The stupid way being smashing your shins with a hard object regularly or rolling on coke bottles with your shins etc...you get faster results but suffer for it later.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Carbon]

What do you think a bannana bag is? A pillow?

[Bob Hubbard]

Whats a Banana Bag?

[KennethKu]

Here is a pic of a banana bag

http://www.allcombat.com/12banbag.html

[Bob Hubbard]

Cool. Thank you.


My guess is that the small amount of cushion and longer 'conditioning' time associated with the bananabag allows for a better, less complicated treatment, rather than just whacking your leg into a tree.

again, im guessing though.

[Damian Mavis]

Carbon, theres plenty of cushion on a banana bag compared to beating your legs with a stick or rolling on coke bottles sheesh. So in a sense, ya a banana bag is a pillow compared to the alternatives I mentioned.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Carbon]

I have a bannana bag and the strikes of kicks in the lower region can be quite a pain on shins since the cushion has been packed down into to the bottom of my bag making it rock hard.

This is my bag and I'm talking from experience with my bag. I'm not saying every bag is like this or am I saying that this relates to you. I am saying this relates to me. Just to make everything clear and so you don't "mis-interpret" anything and start yelling lol.

[Damian Mavis]

Actually Carbon thats how most banana bags are, very hard....just not as hard as coke bottles. It's kool that you have one of your own to train on if you so wish. The pain your feeling is the same pain I felt when I first joined Muay Thai but if you keep it up, maybe kicking it with your shin 30 to 50 times each leg every day you would see a change in the feeling you get when you hit the bag within a month. You seem to think it would be bad to do this but the small line of nerves down the ridge of your shin bone isn't used for anything that will be damaged and needed later on in life.

edit: I should also mention that you shouldnt be kicking it full force at first, work your way up to full force over the course of a month.... maybe longer.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Carbon]

Ya, I don't kick it full force since I've kicked it at half force and it doesn't hurt real bad just gives a shock to my shin.

I am rather lacking my ability in kicking with my left leg since I am right legged. I am not sure how to correct this except train more with my left leg and try to become more profeccient.

I am looking into a school. In kenpo http://www.kenporocks.com/CFKC_HOMEx.html
is the site where its at and I am pretty sure when I first asked about schools in my area someone reccomended this school in the list of 3 schools he listed.

I am planning to go visit it monday since the times on saturday classes are early in the morning and the ones on sunday run till about 8:00 pm.

I am not sure how good this school is but I will find out when I go there what the atmosphere is like.

[Kirk]

There's a link somewhere on this board of a video of 2 MT
guys fighting in the ring, and one breaks his shin BIG TIME.
Although it's a terrible ending, it would be a great demo to Carbon
of the nature of kick with and blocking with the shins.

Anyone have it posted somewhere??

[Damian Mavis]

Ya I've seen that video, and the one were a professional wrestler is jumping from the ropes and snaps his leg in 2. Fun stuff.

Carbon, ya if you keep training your left leg it will catch up to your right in ability. I've even heard of people training thier bad leg so much they become more proficient with thier old "bad leg".

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Bob Hubbard]

Warning: Graphic
(ok, it won't allow direct linking...go to the below page and look at the gallery...)

Other great clips are available here:
http://www.geocities.com/indy458/ courtecy of our member Hollywood1340 :asian:

[J-kid]

I am looking for a used discounted banana bag and will buy if you dont use it and wanna buy something else please send me a message if you chose to let me buy,. you can sell to me over ebay. Via paypal.

[Nightingale]

I got more efficient with my "off" hand and leg by always working that side first. Most people tend to slack a little on the second half of a set, so if you work the weaker side first, it will catch up to the stronger side, wheras if you work the stronger side first, the weaker side keeps losing ground. this is just a little thing that might help somewhat. Don't expect miracles from doing this, but I did notice a marked improvement after a month or so of regular training.

[fissure]

I got more efficient with my "off" hand and leg by always working that side first
Same with me.My left side (off side) is now better than my right for forward motion kicks - front,round,side,ect. But I'm still stronger with the right when it comes to turning or spinning type kicks.
My punching has been about the same with both hands for longer than I can remember. :cool: